Thedelldays Posted 18 January, 2009 Share Posted 18 January, 2009 (edited) SHOCKER... well..the muslims are wrong IMO this time Edited 18 January, 2009 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 19 January, 2009 Share Posted 19 January, 2009 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=smu7L_8Lt1E&feature=related Whatever the rights and wrongs of this conflict, when I see this kind of thing it makes me sickened and ashamed to even be the same species as the c***s that do things like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 19 January, 2009 Share Posted 19 January, 2009 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=smu7L_8Lt1E&feature=related Whatever the rights and wrongs of this conflict, when I see this kind of thing it makes me sickened and ashamed to even be the same species as the c***s that do things like this. thing is...**** happens in war/conflicts...we have done it...and it will happen for generations to come...innocent people will get killed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 guess who broke the cease fire (yet again) over night...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 guess who broke the cease fire (yet again) over night...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 SHOCKER... well..the muslims are wrong IMO this time the fact you refer to Palestinians as "the muslims" is quite damning and proves that you are unable to provide a rational view on the subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 Anyone seen this before? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys It certainly makes you think about things when you see the latest news etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 the fact you refer to Palestinians as "the muslims" is quite damning and proves that you are unable to provide a rational view on the subject i am rational about it..was throwing one back to the poster calling israelis "the jews".. have a look..it is only a couple of posts above mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff leopard Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 Have a look-see here for some staggering photo's of the Israeli's using white phosphorus shells, banned by the Geneva convention, against the UN hospital in Gaza, a designated shelter. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2009/jan/21/gaza-israelandthepalestinians I'm willing to bet they came from the same company that supplied the US military with the phosphorus shells used to wipe out large areas of Fallujah. It makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 no point jeff..im sure it would take me or anyone all of about 30 seconds to find a picture of a palestinian doing something "illegal".. what astounds me is how in 2009 people in britian are able to fall behind (in some sort of default way) a recognised terrorist organisation that is Hamas...these people are recognised by most, if not all free democratic countries as a hardline terrorist group...ffs what israel are doing is wrong to a degree..but ffs, see both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 It's been said before, but it's worth repeating, that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Think back to the Resistance Movement in WWII for example. Or Mandela. And, whether we like it or not, Hamas WAS democratically elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Martini Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 no point jeff..im sure it would take me or anyone all of about 30 seconds to find a picture of a palestinian doing something "illegal".. what astounds me is how in 2009 people in britian are able to fall behind (in some sort of default way) a recognised terrorist organisation that is Hamas...these people are recognised by most, if not all free democratic countries as a hardline terrorist group...ffs what israel are doing is wrong to a degree..but ffs, see both sides I don't think many people support Hamas in the western world. I do think quite a few of them think the plight of the Palestinian people is one that is worth supporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 Have a look-see here for some staggering photo's of the Israeli's using white phosphorus shells, banned by the Geneva convention, against the UN hospital in Gaza, a designated shelter. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2009/jan/21/gaza-israelandthepalestinians I'm willing to bet they came from the same company that supplied the US military with the phosphorus shells used to wipe out large areas of Fallujah. It makes me sick. How many pictures of badly burnt Palistinians have made there way to the papers???????, or could they be (as the Israeli's claim) smoke screen bombs, that burn out before they reach the ground. Just another thought!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 no point jeff..im sure it would take me or anyone all of about 30 seconds to find a picture of a palestinian doing something "illegal".. what astounds me is how in 2009 people in britian are able to fall behind (in some sort of default way) a recognised terrorist organisation that is Hamas...these people are recognised by most, if not all free democratic countries as a hardline terrorist group...ffs what israel are doing is wrong to a degree..but ffs, see both sides True true, in fact they are on the UN's own list....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint George Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 It's been said before, but it's worth repeating, that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Think back to the Resistance Movement in WWII for example. Or Mandela. And, whether we like it or not, Hamas WAS democratically elected. And that's exactly why the Palestinians are being held accountable....'They' voted a terrorist organisation into office to represent them.....Only have their selves to blame IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 And that's exactly why the Palestinians are being held accountable....'They' voted a terrorist organisation into office to represent them.....Only have their selves to blame IMO The same argument could be applied to the Israelis who were terrorists in 1940s, as was pointed out whenever this thread started. I don't really care about the minutiae of who did what to whom. The concern I have is for ALL innocent victims, whatever 'side' they're on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 BTF this is not the 1940s...this is here and now... as for demorcratically elected...not too sure I trust their coming to power too much..nor would I trust any RECOGNISED terrorist organisation that gets enough votes to get power...you are stopping short, in fact, you are not stopping short of saying we should recognised mugabe as he was "democratically" elected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 BTF this is not the 1940s...this is here and now... as for demorcratically elected...not too sure I trust their coming to power too much..nor would I trust any RECOGNISED terrorist organisation that gets enough votes to get power...you are stopping short, in fact, you are not stopping short of saying we should recognised mugabe as he was "democratically" elected Doesn't invalidate the argument though. Define a terrorist. To define anything it's OK to use examples from the past as well as the present. I didn't have the privilege of being an election observer so I can't comment on whether elections in Zimbabwe or Palestine were democratic. Did you? The EU DID monitor elections in Gaza, amongst other places. "In 2005, the EU Election Monitoring Missions (EOMs) were deployed to the West Bank/Gaza, Guinea Bissau, Burundi, Ethiopia, and Lebanon; EU EOMs are still in the field in Afghanistan, Liberia and Sri Lanka; and further missions are being prepared for elections in Venezuela, Haiti, West Bank/Gaza and the Democratic Republic of Congo." http://www.europa-eu-un.org/articles/en/article_5203_en.htm IIRC, there was monitoring for the Zimbabwe elections. However, Mugabe chose to ignore the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 hmmm im glad you trust the way Hamas come to power..I (am most of the democratic world) dont trust them.. each to their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 hmmm im glad you trust the way Hamas come to power..I (am most of the democratic world) dont trust them.. each to their own TDD you really must learn to read what's actually written and not what you think is written. This is what I wrote 3 minutes before your post: I didn't have the privilege of being an election observer so I can't comment on whether elections in Zimbabwe or Palestine were democratic. How on earth can you immediately turn that into 'I'm glad you trust the way Hamas came to power' FFS ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 do you..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint George Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 The same argument could be applied to the Israelis who were terrorists in 1940s, as was pointed out whenever this thread started. I don't really care about the minutiae of who did what to whom. The concern I have is for ALL innocent victims, whatever 'side' they're on. The fact they 'chose' to be represented by a terrorist organisation makes them part of a conspiracy in my book.....Now they're facing the consequences of their actions, just as the people in German and Japanese cities did during WW2 You can't elect to wage war against a Nation State and then complain when you receive civilian casualties.....War is ugly, that's why most of us want to avoid it if at all possible. But if you're pushed into a corner and have no option as the Israelis were. Then you don't fight with one hand behind your back ......You do what you need to do to to get the job done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff leopard Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 no point jeff..im sure it would take me or anyone all of about 30 seconds to find a picture of a palestinian doing something "illegal".. theres illegal and there's this A UN school and designated shelter being shelled with white phosphorous. Of course Israel denied using the weapon until presented with unmistakable evidence. Now it says it was a rogue unit of reservists. FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 (edited) jeff..anyone can point out an isolated incident...anyone..!! im sure it would take me all of about 1 minute to find poictures of the aftermath of a palestinian suicide bomber...... like I said, what amazes me is that in the UK in 2009 some people have a default opinion that puts them behind a worldly known and accepted terrorist group that is OPEN in its policies in the destruction of israel...A TERRORIST GROUP that does not want or interested in peace of any kind with israel...a terrorist group that OTHER nations in the region will not deal with. If I am correct, members of Hamas are banned from entering many countries...right..? and this is what the "default" view of some people in the UK in 2009.. Edited 22 January, 2009 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyFartPants Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 jeff..anyone can point out an isolated incident...anyone..!! im sure it would take me all of about 1 minute to find poictures of the aftermath of a palestinian suicide bomber...... like I said, what amazes me is that in the UK in 2009 some people have a default opinion that puts them behind a worldly known and accepted terrorist group that is OPEN in its policies in the destruction of israel...A TERRORIST GROUP that does not want or interested in peace of any kind with israel...a terrorist group that OTHER nations in the region will not deal with. If I am correct, members of Hamas are banned from entering many countries...right..? and this is what the "default" view of some people in the UK in 2009.. Is this really all about a bunch of people that like chickpeas and olive oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 jeff..anyone can point out an isolated incident...anyone..!! im sure it would take me all of about 1 minute to find poictures of the aftermath of a palestinian suicide bomber...... like I said, what amazes me is that in the UK in 2009 some people have a default opinion that puts them behind a worldly known and accepted terrorist group that is OPEN in its policies in the destruction of israel...A TERRORIST GROUP that does not want or interested in peace of any kind with israel...a terrorist group that OTHER nations in the region will not deal with. If I am correct, members of Hamas are banned from entering many countries...right..? and this is what the "default" view of some people in the UK in 2009.. And what has been pointed out to you, and you seem to have conveniently ignored, is that most people do not support Hamas at all, but feel sympathy towards the innocent civilians who did not ask to be caught up in this conflict and have nowhere else to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 And what has been pointed out to you, and you seem to have conveniently ignored, is that most people do not support Hamas at all, but feel sympathy towards the innocent civilians who did not ask to be caught up in this conflict and have nowhere else to go. did not ask..? has been pointed out...hamas were elected.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 jeff..anyone can point out an isolated incident...anyone..!! im sure it would take me all of about 1 minute to find poictures of the aftermath of a palestinian suicide bomber...... like I said, what amazes me is that in the UK in 2009 some people have a default opinion that puts them behind a worldly known and accepted terrorist group that is OPEN in its policies in the destruction of israel...A TERRORIST GROUP that does not want or interested in peace of any kind with israel...a terrorist group that OTHER nations in the region will not deal with. If I am correct, members of Hamas are banned from entering many countries...right..? and this is what the "default" view of some people in the UK in 2009.. This doesn't seem to be the default view of many people on this thread but keep on enjoying knocking down your straw man. My default view is that civilians should not be deliberately targeted, collective punishment of civilians is wrong, and the impact of military conflict upon civilians should be minimised. The death toll and destruction in Gaza beyond any proportion - a comparison of the casualties from either side suggests this is the case. TDD - just because you have a hatred of organisations like Hamas doesn't mean that you should turn a blind eye to Israel's wrong doing. The world isn't black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 did not ask..? has been pointed out...hamas were elected.. Hang on Delldays, you're really confusing me now. Firstly you say that you don't trust that Hamas' election victory was genuine, and you then go ahead and blame the entire population of Gaza for their actions? :smt102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 Hang on Delldays, you're really confusing me now. Firstly you say that you don't trust that Hamas' election victory was genuine, and you then go ahead and blame the entire population of Gaza for their actions? :smt102 just because I DONT TRUST them..does not mean it as fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 (edited) This doesn't seem to be the default view of many people on this thread but keep on enjoying knocking down your straw man. My default view is that civilians should not be deliberately targeted, collective punishment of civilians is wrong, and the impact of military conflict upon civilians should be minimised. The death toll and destruction in Gaza beyond any proportion - a comparison of the casualties from either side suggests this is the case. TDD - just because you have a hatred of organisations like Hamas doesn't mean that you should turn a blind eye to Israel's wrong doing. The world isn't black and white. where did I say the world was black and white and you will see many times on this thread that I have said what israel are doing is wrong.. by beef is with peopl (not you) that will always champion the hamas cause or at the very least excuse their terrorist actions and blame israel in some sort of automatic default george galloway-esque view... Edited 22 January, 2009 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 just because I DONT TRUST them..does not mean it as fact... True, but the fact that you would even question it surely negates your whole argument that supporting the civilian population of Gaza 'by default' means supporting Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint George Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 And what has been pointed out to you, and you seem to have conveniently ignored, is that most people do not support Hamas at all, but feel sympathy towards the innocent civilians who did not ask to be caught up in this conflict and have nowhere else to go. So maybe you can show us that DD is wrong by showing us your previous screams of shock and horror over the innocent Israeli citizens that have died to Hamas suicide bombers and rocket in the past before this conflict started? I'm not going to be stupid enough to hold my breath while you do, because i'm pretty sure you never did.....And i'm also pretty sure the same can be said for most of the other peeps on here crying over Palestinian victims... Waiting for someone to prove me wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 True, but the fact that you would even question it surely negates your whole argument that supporting the civilian population of Gaza 'by default' means supporting Hamas. that is not my arguement...read above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 So maybe you can show us that DD is wrong by showing us your previous screams of shock and horror over the innocent Israeli citizens that have died to Hamas suicide bombers and rocket in the past before this conflict started? I'm not going to be stupid enough to hold my breath while you do, because i'm pretty sure you never did.....And i'm also pretty sure the same can be said for most of the other peeps on here crying over Palestinian victims... Waiting for someone to prove me wrong I'm not claiming for a second that the Palestinians are completely blameless. Far from it. I saw a program a while back which proved beyond doubt that Palestinians in Gaza have been faking videos showing some of the suffering at the hands of the Israelis. I'll have a look and see if I can find it on Youtube. I'm just pointing out that to deliberately target and kill civilians using illegal chemical weapons purely because of the actions of a group of terrorists, which there can be no doubt the IDF has been doing, is totally despicable. that is not my arguement...read above like I said, what amazes me is that in the UK in 2009 some people have a default opinion that puts them behind a worldly known and accepted terrorist group that is OPEN in its policies in the destruction of israel...A TERRORIST GROUP that does not want or interested in peace of any kind with israel...a terrorist group that OTHER nations in the region will not deal with. You're contradicting yourself. Nobody, as far as I can see, is declaring support for Hamas. I am as much opposed to terrorism as anyone else and do not condone their actions. But do civilians deserve to be collectively punished because of them? When we were under constant threat of attacks from the IRA, did we wade into Ireland and destroy houses, apartment blocks and schools, and unleash white phosphorous weapons on their civilian population as 'punishment'? Of course we didn't. Hamas is without doubt a terrorist organisation that have carried out some pretty horrific acts. But the Israeli response is way, way out of all proportion, and that is the point that most people are trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 January, 2009 Share Posted 22 January, 2009 bexy...how am u contradicting myself..there are people that think like that...that is one post i have made on here amongst many... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swastika eyes Posted 3 August, 2009 Share Posted 3 August, 2009 I see the Jews are at it again. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8180413.stm Evil ****s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 3 August, 2009 Share Posted 3 August, 2009 I see the Jews are at it again. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8180413.stm Evil ****s. Hmmm... http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090803/ten-uk-hamas-5fdf947.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor in Vancouver Posted 4 August, 2009 Share Posted 4 August, 2009 I see the Jews are at it again. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8180413.stm Evil ****s. It's not the Jews you should be blaming, it's the Zionists. And yes, Zionists are evil ****s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emerson massey Posted 5 August, 2009 Share Posted 5 August, 2009 Well, it seems there are some really strong opinions, some reasoned and thought provoking, and some that just smack of ignorance (imho) My opinion is (if anyone cares) that while both sides in the ongoing conflict have done terrible wrongs, there is a difference between persecuting an entire population due to the actions of one group, be they legitimately voted into power or not. During the recent conflict, there was clear and deliberate targeting of sites that the Israeli army knew where not a place where 'terrorists' would be using, such as the UN school etc. If this were to happen in any other warzone, by any other western 'civilized' society, then there would be international outrage. While true that similar targeting of civilians occurs from the Palestinians towards Israelis, they are committed by a terrorist group, not a national army (albeit one mostly made up of reservists who had never seen combat) The actions of these terrorist groups have forced israel into a situation of annexing the territories, and in the process, creating ghettos full of the pain and misery of normal people, which in turn breeds hatred. The situation is almost impossible - the arbitrary killing of civilians (either by the Palestinian 'terrorists' or the Israeli 'Army') will continue - imo, the only way is to put the two sides together and say fight it out away from civilians - however, Israel will not allow civilians to leave the territories to get out of the fighting zone, so more will continue to be killed. Due to the nature of our sensationalist media, we have been give the impression that all Palestinians (and indeed Muslims in general) hate the western world. This is just not true. A majority of people in the West Bank & Gaza yearn for a normal life, with running water and electricity, the chance to further themselves by going to university, or at least get work to support their family. However, this is difficult or impossible for many - that must be an awful feeling, a feeling of helplessness and insignificance. Now, i dont in anyway claim to be an expert, far from it, it is just a situation i follow with genuine interest and sadness. I have met several people from both sides of the equation (including a Israeli friend who did his national service) and they all have genuine points that are difficult to argue with. There was in effect no real reason to write this, but i just felt that having read some of the bile on this thread (from both perspectives), i wanted to put across my point of view. Em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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