St Neel Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Posters on here have debated Pelle's and Mane's talents and shortcomings all season. Both are decent players, but both have their faults. Pelle does some great link up play but is clunky and offers little movement. Mane has fantastic pace and has moments of brilliance but is so random in the way he plays that his team mates usually have no idea where he'll be or what he'll do next. I think the individual failings of these two are compounded when they play together - i think they just dont understand each other's game. So many times this season i've seen pelle do a step over expecting mane to pick up the ball, or mane chase down the wings and cross thinking pelle will be there, and its just not happened. Its a shame because they have both played brilliantly for us at times this season, but overall i think they just cant play well together. Maybe they can be coached to understand each others game better, but I suspect not. So what to do? My opinion is that we should sell mane this summer. I think he's too random, despite his occasional brilliance. I also get the feeling (though its totally unfounded in any evidence) that he doesnt give much of a toss about The Team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Mane is a bit of a free spirit but that has produced many of his goals and assists this season. He has enormous upside and with good coaching could be a very very good player. Pelle is a different sort of player and if we had to sell one it surely has to be him. As for understanding, they are different types of player and I don't think the blame can be attributed to anyone or anything in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsk Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Why don't you think two inernational players, one of whom (the one you want sold) is only 22, cannot be coached into understanding the other's game better? As for your opinion that Mane should be sold this summer.... Well, we are entitled to our opinion, however wrong it may be! Mane has been our biggest threat this season and will only get better as he matures. We would be crazy to sell him this summer - in my opinion, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Neel Posted 21 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Mane is a bit of a free spirit but that has produced many of his goals and assists this season. He has enormous upside and with good coaching could be a very very good player. Pelle is a different sort of player and if we had to sell one it surely has to be him. As for understanding' date=' they are different types of player and I don't think the blame can be attributed to anyone or anything in particular.[/quote'] Fair enough, can understand that view too. We'd be unlikely to sell either of them anyway this summer, so its a moot point. But worth considering whether they can form somekind of understanding. (Have just watched bayern play with a some kind of hive mind) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Fair enough, can understand that view too. We'd be unlikely to sell either of them anyway this summer, so its a moot point. But worth considering whether they can form somekind of understanding. (Have just watched bayern play with a some kind of hive mind) Well if any player is likely to do something outside what they have been asked to tactically and structurally, then it's Mane. But I don't think that is cause for suggesting he can't play in the same team as Pelle. We need that I think. Someone to break up the oppositions defence or be unpredictable and keep people guessing. He'll frustrate at times and obviously have some stinkers of a game, but there will also be the brilliance that helps us win games - we have to take the rough with the smooth with these players at our level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Mane is our main goal threat, the one player who is capable of getting in behind, to the byline, stretching the game. Why would you want to sell him? He is a massive player for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Patrón Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Mane's class, Tadic is just as good though imo. Tadic, Mane and Ramirez would be the GOAT creative midfield if they all played to the best of their ability. Unfortunately they dont. Pelle on the other hand is fuking useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 Keep them both, but they work all summer with RK's team and JRod getting ready for next season and learning how to not repeatedly butcher promising goalscoring opportunities. Both Mane and Pelle will learn a lot from JRod. We shouldn't be selling flawed geniuses like Mane, and I don't think selling Italy's current number 9 is that good an idea either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxon Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 I think this pre-season could be vital. After their first season together the whole squad should be better at playing together and a proper pre-season, no longer as newbies, will really help. Mane didn't have a pre-season with us remember, he joined right at the end of the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 If we're going to sell anyone this summer for me it should be Long. Why? Because I know Pelle and Mane can be good and at times brilliant. I know both have been inconsistent but if we can find a way to get the best out of them, the goals are there. Long on the other hand has never been anything other than a 5-8 goal a season man. A hard worker but lacking in ability at this level and better suited to teams like Hull or West Brom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austsaint Posted 21 April, 2015 Share Posted 21 April, 2015 If we're going to sell anyone this summer for me it should be Long. Why? Because I know Pelle and Mane can be good and at times brilliant. I know both have been inconsistent but if we can find a way to get the best out of them, the goals are there. Long on the other hand has never been anything other than a 5-8 goal a season man. A hard worker but lacking in ability at this level and better suited to teams like Hull or West Brom. Mane is one of the best buys SFC have made for a long time. This talk of his "failings and inconsistencies" make me chuckle - there were a few games early on where he struggled with the pace and style of game, but he has been among our best, week in, week out for ages, and without him a lot of our creative attacking play disappears. Two of his qualities I've enjoyed is his capacity to pick out a pass to a player in or around the box and his willingness to track back and assist defensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Always weird to see Long judged on his goalscoring record when he's only once been in the position of being the main goalscorer at a club and he responded by scoring the most goals he ever has. Just strange logic to expect him to be weighing in with 15 goals from the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd_barrett_saint Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 I thought that Mane and Long up front at Chelsea looked promising. Would be nice to see that again, against lesser opposition. If we are thinking of dropping or replacing either, then surely it would be Pelle. But really, we should be looking to hold on to him as an option, and also bring in another striker to ease the burden. Pelle, Mane, Long, J Rod and one other (Austin or Ings for example) would give us good strike force options for what is hopefully a season with more games due to a good run in the Europa cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Always weird to see Long judged on his goalscoring record when he's only once been in the position of being the main goalscorer at a club and he responded by scoring the most goals he ever has. Just strange logic to expect him to be weighing in with 15 goals from the wing. I never said 15 but edging around double figures would be nice. It would be nice to see something more than just 'putting a decent shift in' from our forward players. It's not like Long is going to pick open a defence with a killer pass, or beat 2 men with his amazing close control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 I never said 15 but edging around double figures would be nice. It would be nice to see something more than just 'putting a decent shift in' from our forward players. It's not like Long is going to pick open a defence with a killer pass, or beat 2 men with his amazing close control. He won't do that, but play to his strengths, as we did against Chelsea, and he will worry even the toughest defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Always weird to see Long judged on his goalscoring record when he's only once been in the position of being the main goalscorer at a club and he responded by scoring the most goals he ever has. Just strange logic to expect him to be weighing in with 15 goals from the wing. He's playing the same sort of role as Eden Hazard, and look at his goal record. I don't dislike Long, the problem is that because Pelle is so immobile, Long is running all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 He's playing the same sort of role as Eden Hazard, and look at his goal record. I don't dislike Long, the problem is that because Pelle is so immobile, Long is running all over the place. We don't have the money to afford a world class player like Hazard. It's why we don't win games with moments, we win or lose them with percentages. As for "Long is running a lot because Pelle isn't", just no. Long's role requires him to run a lot, Pelle isn't supposed to be tracking the right midfielder and pressing the right back 5 seconds later. Pelle is doing his role as coached, Long is doing his. If the role requires it, it's because of how they're being told to play, not because of any deficiencies in the players - I've seen Pelle hare around like Long in patches, including against Hull. He has obviously been told not to as a general rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 If we're selling one of them i'd rather it was Pelle. I really hope he's not first choice up front next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 He's playing the same sort of role as Eden Hazard, and look at his goal record. I don't dislike Long, the problem is that because Pelle is so immobile, Long is running all over the place. So your problem with Long is that he doesn't contribute as much as Eden Hazard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 So your problem with Long is that he doesn't contribute as much as Eden Hazard? There is also the little matter that I haven't touched upon that Hazard has a bunch of world class players pulling the team he's playing against all over the place as well, which makes his job that bit easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Posters on here have debated Pelle's and Mane's talents and shortcomings all season. Both are decent players, but both have their faults. Pelle does some great link up play but is clunky and offers little movement. Mane has fantastic pace and has moments of brilliance but is so random in the way he plays that his team mates usually have no idea where he'll be or what he'll do next. I think the individual failings of these two are compounded when they play together - i think they just dont understand each other's game. So many times this season i've seen pelle do a step over expecting mane to pick up the ball, or mane chase down the wings and cross thinking pelle will be there, and its just not happened. Its a shame because they have both played brilliantly for us at times this season, but overall i think they just cant play well together. Maybe they can be coached to understand each others game better, but I suspect not. So what to do? My opinion is that we should sell mane this summer. I think he's too random, despite his occasional brilliance. I also get the feeling (though its totally unfounded in any evidence) that he doesnt give much of a toss about The Team. Apologies if this comes across as a little harsh but.... Congratulations on one of the stupidest posts I've ever seen on here. In what way is Mane unpredictable? When he plays on the left wing he looks to cut inside 9 times out of ten and play a short ball to feet and look for the return. When he plays up front he looks to get into space and run at centre backs. If he was called "David" and was from Essex, I wonder if he would be perceived as less unpredictable? Similarly, I wonder why you suspect he doesn't want to be here? I wonder if you found Guly and Papa Waigo similarly frustrating? It's clear that he is our best attacker by some distance (Jay Rod a possible exception but he might be broken) but you want to sell him because you have formed some weird preconceptions about him. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScepticalStan Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 I think the one thing we all need to take into account here is that Mané is black and thus, won't be able to learn and understand the way the team plays. Furthermore, being black, its also very unlikely that he's only 22. It doesn't matter that he's got pace to burn, is wonderfully two-footed, can pick a pass, can beat a man, does indeed track back and win the ball and despite played out of position on the wing, is our top scorer in terms of minutes-to-goals-ratio, he's just too much of a loose cannon. Obviously he's African as well so probably doesn't care about THE TEAM. Shane Long on the other hand is a good, solid, honest, hard-working player who tracks back and runs fast. Despite the fact that he's Irish, he has a beautiful British name as well, so surely cares about THE TEAM. I think the league should award us goals for effort on account of the fact he tries really really hard. Our fanbase is ****ing asinine sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughieslastminutegoal Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 We don't have the money to afford a world class player like Hazard. It's why we don't win games with moments, we win or lose them with percentages. As for "Long is running a lot because Pelle isn't", just no. Long's role requires him to run a lot, Pelle isn't supposed to be tracking the right midfielder and pressing the right back 5 seconds later. Pelle is doing his role as coached, Long is doing his. If the role requires it, it's because of how they're being told to play, not because of any deficiencies in the players - I've seen Pelle hare around like Long in patches, including against Hull. He has obviously been told not to as a general rule. Not sure how you know if he is just playing how he has been told. Nevertheless, you say Pelle's lack of movement (and goals) is because of coaching and instruction, not because of any deficiency of his own. Our lack of goals or incisiveness is all down to Koeman and the coaches in that case. Or is no one really responsible for our dearth of goals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 So, Pelle is told to stand on the 18 years line when the ball is thrown in the box? Brilliant stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Not sure how you know if he is just playing how he has been told. Nevertheless, you say Pelle's lack of movement (and goals) is because of coaching and instruction, not because of any deficiency of his own. Our lack of goals or incisiveness is all down to Koeman and the coaches in that case. Or is no one really responsible for our dearth of goals? I say Pelle's "lack of movement" (which I'm still yet to see, and I've spent the last few matches specifically watching his movement) is partially because of coaching, yes. Our lack of goals is a side-effect of that, just as Mane's streak of goals a while back was down to Pelle pulling out of the area where he was easily marked to make space for Mane to run into. I formed my conclusions regarding the levels of coaching based on watching Seager in the U21s doing almost exactly the same things around the area as Pelle, including the goalkeeper lurking thing when the keeper has the ball in his hands which I regard as an absolute waste of time and a very good way to get your striker booked and put him in an offside position when he could be chasing a ball back in on goal. But there's obviously some stat which shows that having a player in keeper's vision but not able to block a clearance is conducive to a worse kick, or something. An absolute pile of the things players do are pure coaching, triggers for movement and unlearning previous behaviours to do things for specific reasons and yes, that probably includes standing on the edge of the box when someone's chucking the ball into the area - or at the very least being over-produced so that you think you're meant to be doing that rather than the obvious stuff. I'll defer to people who are actually involved in coaching this sort of level about whether it happens like this or not, but I've seen enough coaching-based stuff to think it can be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Our fanbase is ****ing asinine sometimes. I think it's just the one guy on this occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScepticalStan Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 I think it's just the one guy on this occasion. You say that, but its unbelievable how often you hear this kind of sentiment echo around Saint Mary's. Whether its Lambert waddling around the pitch towards the end of last season being just as ineffective as Pelle has been in this, or Paddy Long scuttling round like a headless chicken unable to trap a bag of cement (and actually getting applause for knocking it past the full back before failing to even so much as get on the end of his own pass; and then perhaps committing a foul in an effort to win the ball back) our fanbase is the very prototype of the ignorant bunch English fans: hopelessly biased towards 'solid, honest, English' talentless, try-hard-cloggers and immediately unappreciative of anyone with a foreign name. So clueless its embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 You say that, but its unbelievable how often you hear this kind of sentiment echo around Saint Mary's. Whether its Lambert waddling around the pitch towards the end of last season being just as ineffective as Pelle has been in this, or Paddy Long scuttling round like a headless chicken unable to trap a bag of cement (and actually getting applause for knocking it past the full back before failing to even so much as get on the end of his own pass; and then perhaps committing a foul in an effort to win the ball back) our fanbase is the very prototype of the ignorant bunch English fans: hopelessly biased towards 'solid, honest, English' talentless, try-hard-cloggers and immediately unappreciative of anyone with a foreign name. So clueless its embarrassing. Ha, you went straight for the Lambert vein. I'm not sure it's a race thing as opposed to a "trying hard" thing though, but maybe I'm giving thickoes too much credit. Personally I think all players with the kind of conditioning this lot have should be flat out moving, creating space and working themselves all over the place to create openings when the ball is within a 40 yard pass of them, but for some reason that's just not what happens any more, and you get players waiting for specific triggers to activate them rather than just taking things into their own hands and making it happen. That isn't be be confused with "just headless running a lot", this is running with the specific purpose of closing down to press the ball, or create space, or make a run that pulls defenders out of position, or whatever other method is needed to get the most effective outcome from the players on the pitch in any given scenario. That stuff also needs skill and execution to make something happen, but it's a lot easier to make a penetrating pass when the defender is 4 yards away from the attacker rather than them being stood on top of a stationary striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 (edited) I say Pelle's "lack of movement" (which I'm still yet to see, and I've spent the last few matches specifically watching his movement) is partially because of coaching, yes. Our lack of goals is a side-effect of that, just as Mane's streak of goals a while back was down to Pelle pulling out of the area where he was easily marked to make space for Mane to run into. I formed my conclusions regarding the levels of coaching based on watching Seager in the U21s doing almost exactly the same things around the area as Pelle, including the goalkeeper lurking thing when the keeper has the ball in his hands which I regard as an absolute waste of time and a very good way to get your striker booked and put him in an offside position when he could be chasing a ball back in on goal. But there's obviously some stat which shows that having a player in keeper's vision but not able to block a clearance is conducive to a worse kick, or something. An absolute pile of the things players do are pure coaching, triggers for movement and unlearning previous behaviours to do things for specific reasons and yes, that probably includes standing on the edge of the box when someone's chucking the ball into the area - or at the very least being over-produced so that you think you're meant to be doing that rather than the obvious stuff. I'll defer to people who are actually involved in coaching this sort of level about whether it happens like this or not, but I've seen enough coaching-based stuff to think it can be the case. Not sure what you've been watching. And if its training or coaching based, then clearly the other players aren't listening as they seem to be on a different wavelength. Consider a few examples from saturday: You'll remember Bertrand put in a peach of a cross in the second half which was begging for someone to meet. Invariably Pelle had pulled off and was nowhere near it. For a target man who's scored only one header all season and rarely looked like scoring from a header (i can only think of his chance at newcastle which hit the bar), this isn't a one-off. He's shown a bit more purpose when the ball has been played low and hard at the near post, though it also means that the angle is tighter. Another ball was put in from Bertrand's side, this time from a deeper position. What is interesting is that both Pelle and Davis occupied similar starting points, just outside the box; yet it was only Davis, the supposed plodder, who anticipated the ball and came close to reaching it. Or consider Tadic's chance. If anything, Pelle was closer to Mane and the preferred option; but because he checked his run, Mane bypassed him went for the more dangerous yet difficult ball to Tadic. On another occasion, Mane enjoyed space down the wing -rather than moving to a more central position which would have put the defender in two minds, encouraged Mane to drive into the box or simply given him the option to release the ball, Pelle stood still and threw up his arms. Mane got squeezed and the play broke down. Its hard to know what Pelle is trying to achieve by taking up these positions. You'll recall that he did receive the ball in his preferred position and got his shot off; but being nearly 18 yards, he was never going to test Begovic, even with a clean shot (to be fair, he got a decent connection; but hit the ball into the ground which took the pace off). In fact, he probably missed the better option as one of our players was drifting to the far post. Edited 22 April, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2015 Share Posted 22 April, 2015 Agreed that we should have had someone coming in onto Bertrand's cross. But maybe Bertrand crossing it is the bit that's wrong, not players not attacking it? We all know slinging something across the edge of the 6 yard box is a good tactic as defenders are facing the wrong way, etc., but what if the stats show we're better off keeping the ball and working it through the middle? It would explain why we don't attack the ball. Barcelona have a lot to answer for - they keep the ball in those situations, but they also have world class players to unlock organised defences. Pelle's had a few headed chances, almost all of which have glanced off his head. The other stuff, good examples. But if that's against what he's been asked to do, or is so unsatisfactory to management, why hasn't Pelle been left out? He's not been so essential to us with his height that he can't be replaced by either Mane or Long up top, and it's not really like we use the early lofted link ball into him as much as earlier in the season. I think part of it is that what we've moved to seems to discourage Clyne to overlap and Pelle comes short and lays off on the deck, but as you say, he doesn't seem to be involved after that. He is still pulling away from his marker into space and linking play on the floor, did he ever then turn and sprint into the box, even when he was scoring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Neel Posted 23 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 23 April, 2015 Apologies if this comes across as a little harsh but.... Congratulations on one of the stupidest posts I've ever seen on here. In what way is Mane unpredictable? When he plays on the left wing he looks to cut inside 9 times out of ten and play a short ball to feet and look for the return. When he plays up front he looks to get into space and run at centre backs. If he was called "David" and was from Essex, I wonder if he would be perceived as less unpredictable? Similarly, I wonder why you suspect he doesn't want to be here? I wonder if you found Guly and Papa Waigo similarly frustrating? It's clear that he is our best attacker by some distance (Jay Rod a possible exception but he might be broken) but you want to sell him because you have formed some weird preconceptions about him. Bravo. Congratulations yourself, for implying racism without any justifiable reason for doing so. I quite clearly say in my post that Pelle and Mane are both good players, but both have faults, and that I don't think they play well together. Presumably then you think because I get a feeling (which I admit to not having any evidence for) that Mane doesn't care too much for the team, that is because he is black. Well, I cant prove that this isn't the case, but there are several other black players in the team, none of whom I have suggested don't want to be here. You may disagree with my comments, fair enough. But trying to clinch an argument by implying racism is pathetic. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Neel Posted 23 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 23 April, 2015 You say that, but its unbelievable how often you hear this kind of sentiment echo around Saint Mary's. Whether its Lambert waddling around the pitch towards the end of last season being just as ineffective as Pelle has been in this, or Paddy Long scuttling round like a headless chicken unable to trap a bag of cement (and actually getting applause for knocking it past the full back before failing to even so much as get on the end of his own pass; and then perhaps committing a foul in an effort to win the ball back) our fanbase is the very prototype of the ignorant bunch English fans: hopelessly biased towards 'solid, honest, English' talentless, try-hard-cloggers and immediately unappreciative of anyone with a foreign name. So clueless its embarrassing. So you imply I'm racist, whilst denigrating Shane Long on the basis of him being Irish? See? Its a very easy game to play, this. Idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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