The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 The "second domestic cup winner" position in both England and France (who are the only two nations with two EL-qualifying cup competitions) is the lowest-ranked position, so had Sheffield United gone on to win the League Cup, they'd have gone into the third qualifying round. As Chelsea won it, and they've more or less already qualified for the CL, the EL place for that competition reverts to the next position in the PL. As a result, it's possible to have the oddity whereby Liverpool win the FA Cup, finish 7th, but go into the EL group stage whereas the team finishing 6th has to play in the qualifying rounds. That'll be the N6 I mentioned earlier then, the lowest-ranked qualification position (the N1-N6 and CW designation looks a bit weird in England where there are two cup winners, one of which isn't "CW" but instead is N6 (which has now reverted to a League position anyway).). Presumably that's up to the national FA to decide where their representative comes from - and the League Cup has only recently got a Europa League place. As I've mentioned elsewhere, bloody good job all the English clubs are out of European competition already or we'd have the "winner qualifies for next year's" scenarios to consider too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfield Saint Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 that's deep, man, It's advice to Bob Hope before a duel in "Paleface". Don't make 'em like that any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Hang on a minute, doesn't the fact that the League rule specifies the "next position" mean that the team qualifying in the League Cup not-winners slot actually qualifies into the Group Stages of the Europa League ahead of the FA Cup not-winners slot? I mean it'll still be 5th/6th or 6th/7th or 5th/7th in that order, but technically that's right, just because the League Cup final is played earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILLY Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 The BBC has it wrong. This keeps coming up on thread after thread. Cup runners up no longer get into to Europa League. Here is a link. http://www.as.com/misc/circular_nuevo_formato_UCL.pdf It is true that the new rule only applies as of next season. That means that the teams qualify for the next season under the new rules. The next season is the Europa League for 2015-2016 so the results of this season are affected. Assuming the table is the same at the end of the season as it is now, here are the possibilities. Arsenal win FA cup. Since they are in the champions league, seventh place (us) in the premier league gets into the Europa League and plays in the third qualifying round. Our first game would be July 30. Liverpool win the FA Cup. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League by doing so and, once again, seventh place also qualifies. Anyone else wins the FA. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League as does the fifth place club (Liverpool). The sixth place club (Tottenham) qualifies for the third round and has to play on July 30. We would not qualify. I sent them a comment asking them to fix their error. I wonder what will happen. I tweeted them yesterday too highlighting their error but haven't had a response either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Assuming the interpretation of the Europa League/FA Cup winners scenario above, based on the possible outcomes, these are the 3 options: 1) FA Cup winners (CW) finish in top 4 (i.e. Arsenal) N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round N5 is Prem 5th place, Europa League Group Stage N6 is Prem 6th place, Europa League Group Stage CW becomes a place for Prem 7th, Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 2) FA Cup winners (CW) finish outside top 4 but in top 7 (i.e. Liverpool) N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round CW (Liverpool) enters Europa League Group Stage (even if they come 7th in the League) N5 is highest Prem place outside the top 4 not occupied by Liverpool (either 5th or 6th), Europa League Group Stage N6 is next highest Prem place outside the top 4 not occupied by Liverpool (either 6th or 7th), Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 3) FA Cup winners (CW) are Villa, Blackburn or Reading N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round CW enters Europa League Group Stage N5 is Prem 5th place, Europa League Group Stage N6 is Prem 6th place, Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 7th place doesn't qualify for Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 I tweeted them yesterday too highlighting their error but haven't had a response either. Apparently they've changed the text on the BBC site, it's posted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 That'll be the N6 I mentioned earlier then, the lowest-ranked qualification position (the N1-N6 and CW designation looks a bit weird in England where there are two cup winners, one of which isn't "CW" but instead is N6 (which has now reverted to a League position anyway).). Presumably that's up to the national FA to decide where their representative comes from - and the League Cup has only recently got a Europa League place It's had a European place for years. Since 1967, in fact, although initially UEFA stipulated that the winner could only participate in the Fairs Cup if they were in the top division, so QPR (in 1967) and Swindon (in 1969) didn't qualify despite winning the League Cup. When UEFA ditched the Cup Winners' Cup and expanded the UEFA Cup instead (later to become the Europa League), there were "considerations" to removing the European place for the winners, but they were never pursued and so England and France's Coupe de Ligue both continue to provide a Europa League place to the winners, but as the lowest-ranked position, so they enter in the third qualifying round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Bring back the Intertoto Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Bring back the Intertoto Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 It's had a European place for years. Since 1967, in fact, although initially UEFA stipulated that the winner could only participate in the Fairs Cup if they were in the top division, so QPR (in 1967) and Swindon (in 1969) didn't qualify despite winning the League Cup. When UEFA ditched the Cup Winners' Cup and expanded the UEFA Cup instead (later to become the Europa League), there were "considerations" to removing the European place for the winners, but they were never pursued and so England and France's Coupe de Ligue both continue to provide a Europa League place to the winners, but as the lowest-ranked position, so they enter in the third qualifying round. I never noticed. Though thinking about it... Middlesbrough in the UEFA Cup. Just assumed they got in as FA Cup runners up I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Anyway, can we sticky my clarification post with a FAQ or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 6th place guarantees EL anyway because Chelsea are heading to the CL and won the League Cup. What could happen is that 5th place does not guarantee direct access to the group stage, which depends on who wins the FA Cup. The only change is that losers don't make it to Europe. If Arsenal win and qualify for the CL, then 5th will be awarded a spot in the EL group stage. This also means that the 7th team gets a EL place. If someone else wins, they will be awarded with that spot and the 5th placed team will start in the play-offs, meaning the 6th placed team starts in the 3rd qualifying round. No spot for 7th. Wrong on nearly every count. England has 2 places in the Group Stage. Try reading this, particularly 4.3, 5 & 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_UEFA_Europa_League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Anyway, can we sticky my clarification post with a FAQ or something? Only if we sticky everything I've written on this thread, especially when I've corrected you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 (edited) Wrong on nearly every count. England has 2 places in the Group Stage. Try reading this, particularly 4.3, 5 & 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_UEFA_Europa_League Yeah, that bit about 5th not making the Group stage is wrong. 5th will definitely make the EL group stage as will the FA Cup winner. Group stage places can only go to Prem 5th and FA Cup winner or Prem 5th and Prem 6th if FA Cup winner is in Champions League. No-one starts in the Play-off round any more, you have to have played in the 3rd Qualifying Round of the Champions League or the Europa League to get to that round. Edited 7 April, 2015 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 ****ing hell. I think I'll just wait and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Only if we sticky everything I've written on this thread, especially when I've corrected you. It was where I was a couple of weeks ago before noticing the anomaly two days ago. I think Steve's Cup Final examples, your clarification for a FAQ and my nice and easy every scenario posts, all of which (except yours) which can be pared down and struck-through as the FA Cup progresses and the CL/EL places firm up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 I'm confused. So if Villa lose in the Final to Arsenal, they dont get the Wafer cup place and 7th place does? I thought it needed to be a Arsenal Liverpool final, otherwise the runner up of the cup gets the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Still the solution is reasonably simple...don't finish 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Still the solution is reasonably simple...don't finish 7th. Yes win every game and we're in Europe. I cant believe no one has said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 I'm confused. So if Villa lose in the Final to Arsenal, they dont get the Wafer cup place and 7th place does? I thought it needed to be a Arsenal Liverpool final, otherwise the runner up of the cup gets the place. 1) "Wafer cup" no longer exists and is now called the Europa League. 2) Your statement about 7th place is correct. UEFA changed the rules about cup runners up to take effect in this season's qualification for next season's competitions - that's what's on the link. 3) Your statement about Arsenal/Liverpool final is incorrect. If Arsenal or Liverpool are playing someone else in the Final (i.e Arsenal v Blackburn/Aston Villa or Liverpool v Reading) then the Cup Winner might not already have qualified for Europe, so they could take the European place. With an Arsenal v Liverpool final it is (nearly) guaranteed that they will both make Europe via other means anyway, so that "Cup Winner" spot either goes to the bottom league qualifier if Arsenal win (into Europa 3rd Qualifying Round) or to Liverpool as cup winner going into the Europa Group stages with the bottom league qualifier going into Europa 3rd Qualifying Round. It would be easier to say "Prem 6th" or "7th" but that actually depends on where Liverpool finish if they win the cup. My summary above covers all scenarios (other than Arsenal or Liverpool falling out of the top 7 as it's highly unlikely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 But what it boils down to, if we want Europe, we need to win as many games as we can and finish as high as we can. Simple. (I think) No, if we want Europe then we need the minimum number of points to get us there. Anything more than that is a bonus. It is therefore imperative we discover the least we can do and still make it! Still the solution is reasonably simple...don't finish 7th. Yes - if we finished 8th it would all clear itself up nicely. ps We are all agreed that the SteveGrant example is wrong now, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 We don't. I don't want Brendan and Stevie having their Wembley day. What if they lose though? Thats got to be better than them not getting to final at all surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Perfect scenario would be for Arsenal to stuff Liverpool in the Final and then we should all be happy apart from Liverpool of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 I begin by noting that the BBC has already changed what is says (perhaps in response to my complaint). http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31990668 My head hurts. Are we now saying that if the FA Cup winners qualify for the Europa League in virtue of their league position, then the additional Europa League slot goes to the Cup runners-up rather than to the next based Premier League team? That's a bind. I assumed either Arsenal or Liverpool winning meant 7th place was good enough to qualify. No we are not saying that. If it's an Arsenal v Liverpool final, we have no concerns (or, indeed, as long as Arsenal go on to win it, regardless of final opposition). Potential scenarios: Arsenal v Liverpool, Arsenal win: Arsenal in the Champions League, so Europa League (group stage) place goes to the next highest place in the Premier League instead. Arsenal v Liverpool, Liverpool win: Liverpool get EL place (group stage), Arsenal already in CL, Liverpool likely to have also qualified for EL through PL, so the PL places shift down one (if Liverpool finish 5th or 6th, that would mean 5th/6th into group stage, 7th into 3rd qualifying round) Arsenal v Villa or Blackburn, Arsenal win: Arsenal in the CL, so EL (group stage) place goes to the next highest place in the PL. Arsenal v Villa or Blackburn, Villa or Blackburn win: Villa or Blackburn get EL place (group stage). 7th in PL does NOT qualify. Reading v Liverpool, Liverpool win: Liverpool likely to have already qualified for EL through PL, so Reading get EL (group stage) place. However, IF Liverpool only finish 7th in PL, Reading would miss out to 5th/6th in PL. Reading v Liverpool, Reading win: Reading get EL (group stage) place. Liverpool only in EL if they finish top 6 in PL. Reading v Villa or Blackburn, anyone wins: winner gets EL (group stage) place. 5th also gets group stage place, 6th in 3rd qualifying round. Bolded part is not correct. Not true, or at least the wording of the decision by the UEFA organising committee in 2013 is ambiguous enough to not state that exactly. The bold bit is the key, it makes no mention of having already qualified for the Europa League via the final championship standings. The winner of the FA cup qualifies for England's first birth in the EL. It takes priority over a league position qualification. Therefore, there is no ambiguity. Best and by far the most clear example yet, thanks Steve. But what it boils down to, if we want Europe, we need to win as many games as we can and finish as high as we can. Simple. (I think) I agree he make his description very clear. However, as I just noted, it is not entirely correct. Looks like the Beeb have corrected it, now reads "Should Arsenal or Liverpool win the FA Cup and finish in the top four, their Europa League place will be allocated to the next highest non-qualified club in the Premier League." Even though UEFA's wording is ambiguous surely the same rule should apply if the cup winners finish in a Europa spot? i.e.: the FA cup place goes to the winners or if they have already qualified for Europe it's based on league position. Correct. Ha, well done Redslo. If only I could prove I was the cause. Also, I wish they had linked to my blog article. But to the fair, I didn't mention my blog in my complaint. No, and that is precisely the point I'm making - it's the difference between 7th place needing Arsenal to win the FA Cup and 7th place needing either Arsenal or Liverpool to win the FA Cup. It's ambiguous and needs to be clarified by UEFA, preferably before the Cup semi-finals. There is no ambiguity. I was quite clear on these things until I read this thread! Unless you were unaware of the rule change from last year, you were probably fine before you started this thread. The whole point is that the various countries requested that the domestic cup runner doesn't get a EL spot, and that spot instead will go via the League. Surely, in order to fulfil the spirit of this request, it's immaterial if the Cup winner is qualifying for the CL or the EL, even if the wording doesn't specifically say that? That is a very logical way to look at it. I wish I had thought to explain it that way. I can see your point coming at it from that angle, but it does contain an ambiguity by stating that the Cup runners up qualify if the winners make the Champions League - but not stating what happens if they already make the Europa League. You appear to have nailed the underlying logic though, and I'm happy enough that it makes sense. Interesting that Liverpool could come 7th and win the FA Cup and get directly into the Group stages of the Europa League whilst Saints could come 6th and still have to play in the 3rd Qualifying round. What happened to Chelsea's League Cup winner qualification position? Does that take N6 if it's not a club from N1-N4 but disappear otherwise? That is the advantage of winning the FA Cup. The league cup winner's position is, normally, the lowest position of the three. I believe, but am not 100% certain, that if the FA Cup winner is in the CL, the it goes 5th, League Cup, 6th so that the sixth place club enters in the third play off round. Fortunately, that won't happen this year. Fair enough, I've rethought the logic and I don't disagree. The rule about FA Cup runners up generally has changed though, hence the confusion. They would have qualified for something if their opponent had already made Europe - though come to think of it, no idea if the FA Cup qualification used to take precedence over the Europa League positions before... it's only been in place since the Cup Winners' Cup got the boot, and I'm not sure it's been won by a team outside the CL places but inside the EL places in the interim. True, but Wigan went directly into the group phase even though they were relegated so that shows that the FA cup winner's place in the EL is the highest placed spot. 6th place guarantees EL anyway because Chelsea are heading to the CL and won the League Cup. What could happen is that 5th place does not guarantee direct access to the group stage, which depends on who wins the FA Cup. The only change is that losers don't make it to Europe. If Arsenal win and qualify for the CL, then 5th will be awarded a spot in the EL group stage. This also means that the 7th team gets a EL place. If someone else wins, they will be awarded with that spot and the 5th placed team will start in the play-offs, meaning the 6th placed team starts in the 3rd qualifying round. No spot for 7th. No. That used to be true but now England's top two EL qualifiers go directly to the group stage. I tweeted them yesterday too highlighting their error but haven't had a response either. Curses. Maybe you are responsible for the fix since I am sure they check their tweets more often that they check their comments. Assuming the interpretation of the Europa League/FA Cup winners scenario above, based on the possible outcomes, these are the 3 options: 1) FA Cup winners (CW) finish in top 4 (i.e. Arsenal) N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round N5 is Prem 5th place, Europa League Group Stage N6 is Prem 6th place, Europa League Group Stage CW becomes a place for Prem 7th, Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 2) FA Cup winners (CW) finish outside top 4 but in top 7 (i.e. Liverpool) N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round CW (Liverpool) enters Europa League Group Stage (even if they come 7th in the League) N5 is highest Prem place outside the top 4 not occupied by Liverpool (either 5th or 6th), Europa League Group Stage N6 is next highest Prem place outside the top 4 not occupied by Liverpool (either 6th or 7th), Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 3) FA Cup winners (CW) are Villa, Blackburn or Reading N1, N2, N3 are Prem top 3, Champions League Group stage N4 is Prem 4th, Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round CW enters Europa League Group Stage N5 is Prem 5th place, Europa League Group Stage N6 is Prem 6th place, Europa League 3rd Qualifying Round. 7th place doesn't qualify for Europe. This is correct. I'm confused. So if Villa lose in the Final to Arsenal, they dont get the Wafer cup place and 7th place does? I thought it needed to be a Arsenal Liverpool final, otherwise the runner up of the cup gets the place. That would have been true last year. This year the reason for wanting an Arsenal Liverpool final is to make sure that none of the other clubs could win. If we knew Arsenal was going to win I would not want Liverpool in the final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 I begin by noting that the BBC has already changed what is says (perhaps in response to my complaint). http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31990668 No we are not saying that. Bolded part is not correct. The winner of the FA cup qualifies for England's first birth in the EL. It takes priority over a league position qualification. Therefore, there is no ambiguity. I agree he make his description very clear. However, as I just noted, it is not entirely correct. Correct. If only I could prove I was the cause. Also, I wish they had linked to my blog article. But to the fair, I didn't mention my blog in my complaint. There is no ambiguity. Unless you were unaware of the rule change from last year, you were probably fine before you started this thread. That is a very logical way to look at it. I wish I had thought to explain it that way. That is the advantage of winning the FA Cup. The league cup winner's position is, normally, the lowest position of the three. I believe, but am not 100% certain, that if the FA Cup winner is in the CL, the it goes 5th, League Cup, 6th so that the sixth place club enters in the third play off round. Fortunately, that won't happen this year. True, but Wigan went directly into the group phase even though they were relegated so that shows that the FA cup winner's place in the EL is the highest placed spot. No. That used to be true but now England's top two EL qualifiers go directly to the group stage. Curses. Maybe you are responsible for the fix since I am sure they check their tweets more often that they check their comments. This is correct. That would have been true last year. This year the reason for wanting an Arsenal Liverpool final is to make sure that none of the other clubs could win. If we knew Arsenal was going to win I would not want Liverpool in the final. Arsenal will win the FA Cup, so if this is the case can we have anyone one else but Liverpool as the oppo? Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Anyone mentioned West Ham getting in the wafer cup through fair play league yet?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Anyone mentioned West Ham getting in the wafer cup through fair play league yet?! Don't open that can of worms! For what it's worth, I think that is a place in it's own right - so it doesn't affect the country's current allocation. And WHU, top of the fair play league, what??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 This thread reminds me of: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Anyone mentioned West Ham getting in the wafer cup through fair play league yet?! I mentioned it somewhere on another thread yesterday, but the UEFA fair play report is only up to date through the end of 2014 so we do not even know if England is still one of the top three leagues. But it does not affect any of the other stuff we have been discussing. It is an extra entry into the EL. (With the new rules, in theory, England could get 9 teams into Europe in one year.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 I Redslo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 And WHU, top of the fair play league, what??? Yep, but Saints aren't far behind in 5th... http://www.premierleague.com/content/premierleague/en-gb/matchday/fair-play.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 England are absolutely nowhere in the Fair Play League. I know this because the BBC told me Scotland are 12th, and it stands to reason that if any of the other home nations were closer they would have been mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 (edited) PS, didn't need that last Redslo recap, was fine before the ambiguity and fine again now. Also Wigan going direct to group stages doesn't mean anything, THE FA Cup winners have ALWAYS had priority since the CW Cup got the boot and teams went into the UEFA Cup and then Europa League. The point was about teams who were in Europa League league qualification positions as well as being cup winners. Though as they've changed the qualifying rounds now it's probably moot anyway. Also, don't tell me there's no ambiguity and then say this: "that is the advantage of winning the FA Cup. The league cup winner's position is, normally, the lowest position of the three. I believe, but am not 100% certain, that if the FA Cup winner is in the CL, the it goes 5th, League Cup, 6th so that the sixth place club enters in the third play off round. Fortunately, that won't happen this year." Edited 7 April, 2015 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 England are absolutely nowhere in the Fair Play League. I know this because the BBC told me Scotland are 12th, and it stands to reason that if any of the other home nations were closer they would have been mentioned. England were 3rd in the last standings announced by UEFA... http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/Respect/02/20/25/08/2202508_DOWNLOAD.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Bloody BBC, can someone tweet them and mention that as well... Either that or I scan read the bit about England being 3rd because I sure as hell saw Scotland 12th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Just reread it, both England and Scotland are listed under their appropriate countries, mentioning both 3rd and 12th so either I skipped over it or they added it when they updated the other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Anyway "extra Europa League place, which is given to the highest-placed team in the top flight's Fair Play table that has not yet qualified for Europe.", which means that not only do England have to qualify for an additional fair play place in the first place, but Saints would also have to be the best at Fair Play in the Prem (excluding those already qualified for Europe). But anyway, yeah, West Ham somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 Don't open that can of worms! For what it's worth, I think that is a place in it's own right - so it doesn't affect the country's current allocation. And WHU, top of the fair play league, what??? Probably because Carroll has been injured most of the season! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 7 April, 2015 Share Posted 7 April, 2015 No, my preference, if we are able to somehow control these things is for Liverpool to lose their replay. We go on an amazing run, results go our way and we make the champions league. I will leave you to dream of Lallana and Lovren running around Wembley holding the F A Cup. Sorry I'm not a good enough saints fan for you, but sure I will be ok. and would love that to happen .........and yeah your good enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 PS, didn't need that last Redslo recap, was fine before the ambiguity and fine again now. Also Wigan going direct to group stages doesn't mean anything, THE FA Cup winners have ALWAYS had priority since the CW Cup got the boot and teams went into the UEFA Cup and then Europa League. The point was about teams who were in Europa League league qualification positions as well as being cup winners. Though as they've changed the qualifying rounds now it's probably moot anyway. Also, don't tell me there's no ambiguity and then say this: "that is the advantage of winning the FA Cup. The league cup winner's position is, normally, the lowest position of the three. I believe, but am not 100% certain, that if the FA Cup winner is in the CL, the it goes 5th, League Cup, 6th so that the sixth place club enters in the third play off round. Fortunately, that won't happen this year." The lack of ambiguity referred to the situation this year--not every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Still the solution is reasonably simple...don't finish 7th. Or lose the FA Cup final. At least we've taken care of that possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 The lack of ambiguity referred to the situation this year--not every year. Mmm, I stił think it's fair to say they should have stated that runners up wouldn't qualify under any circumstances, rather than leave it be explained by exception. Especially when they specifically stated one case when runners up would not qualify. If that's the case in all situations, just say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Mmm, I stił think it's fair to say they should have stated that runners up wouldn't qualify under any circumstances, rather than leave it be explained by exception. Especially when they specifically stated one case when runners up would not qualify. If that's the case in all situations, just say it. I notice they didn't say specifically that the team that finishes ninth doesn't qualify for anything. Or the team that finishes thirteenth. Or sixteenth. Or ninth. Or fifteenth. Or ninth. Or the losing quarter finalists of the FA Cup. Come on BBC, UEFA and everyone. You've only covered one case where clubs don't qualify, why not every single case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 I notice they didn't say specifically that the team that finishes ninth doesn't qualify for anything. Or the team that finishes thirteenth. Or sixteenth. Or ninth. Or fifteenth. Or ninth. Or the losing quarter finalists of the FA Cup. Come on BBC, UEFA and everyone. You've only covered one case where clubs don't qualify, why not every single case? Not quite the same thing. If it's "runners up won't qualify", just say "runners up won't qualify", not "runners up won't qualify - and in this situation, they definitely won't qualify". Giving one specific case just opens the door to misinterpretation - as we have seen. So in short, I agree with the overall premise that you've got the qualification rules right, but won't accept that UEFA have made it as clear as they might - which would be to just say "no Cup runners up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 I think we are all on the same page right now so let's let this thread die and jump right on the next thread raising the same questions all over again. I am sure one will come along in just a couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 I think we are all on the same page right now so let's let this thread die and jump right on the next thread raising the same questions all over again. I am sure one will come along in just a couple of days. Hence my suggestion of a European qualification sticky. It's long overdue. Bloody Granty and ketamine binges, asleep at the switch. Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Not quite the same thing. If it's "runners up won't qualify", just say "runners up won't qualify", not "runners up won't qualify - and in this situation, they definitely won't qualify". Giving one specific case just opens the door to misinterpretation - as we have seen. So in short, I agree with the overall premise that you've got the qualification rules right, but won't accept that UEFA have made it as clear as they might - which would be to just say "no Cup runners up". That's because you continue to approach this issue from the starting point of "what happens if you are a runner up in the FA Cup" which has never, ever been the issue at hand. The issue at hand is "what happens when the FA Cup winner qualifies for the Champions League". Look at it that way round and there is no ambiguity and nothing is missed out in any statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 That's because you continue to approach this issue from the starting point of "what happens if you are a runner up in the FA Cup" which has never, ever been the issue at hand. The issue at hand is "what happens when the FA Cup winner qualifies for the Champions League". Look at it that way round and there is no ambiguity and nothing is missed out in any statements. They still need to consider the collateral damage of an explicit statement. Ooh, can I take the lack of an additional "Nothing" at the end of that post as a sign of respect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 They still need to consider the collateral damage of an explicit statement. Ooh, can I take the lack of an additional "Nothing" at the end of that post as a sign of respect? I respect anyone with as much knowledge on Peruvian second division away kits as you have. Especially if they also come from Newport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Can't argue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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