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Have the BBC got this wrong about Europa League qualification?


niceandfriendly

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Sorry if been discussed before, but I was under the impression (mainly from our Championship Manager buddy) that the rules had changed this year in that the FA Cup runners-up do not get awarded a Europa spot? But in this article on the beeb they suggest they will.

 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31990668

 

Chelsea were the first English side to book their place in Europe by winning the League Cup, but in the (extremely likely) event that they qualify for the Champions League, their Europa League place will go to the sixth-placed Premier League team.

Should Arsenal or Liverpool win the FA Cup and finish in the top four, their Europa League place will be allocated to the losing finalists.

 

Kinda relying on the above sentence being untrue and Arse or Pool winning the FA Cup for a 7th placed finish European tour!! Can anyone clear up? MLG?

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Then Reading or Blackburn take a place, I think?

 

If it's a Liverpool v arsenal final and they've both already qualified for Europe do the losing semi finalists play off for the place that would be given to the losing finalist?

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The BBC has it wrong. This keeps coming up on thread after thread. Cup runners up no longer get into to Europa League. Here is a link. http://www.as.com/misc/circular_nuevo_formato_UCL.pdf

 

It is true that the new rule only applies as of next season. That means that the teams qualify for the next season under the new rules. The next season is the Europa League for 2015-2016 so the results of this season are affected.

 

Assuming the table is the same at the end of the season as it is now, here are the possibilities. Arsenal win FA cup. Since they are in the champions league, seventh place (us) in the premier league gets into the Europa League and plays in the third qualifying round. Our first game would be July 30.

 

Liverpool win the FA Cup. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League by doing so and, once again, seventh place also qualifies.

 

Anyone else wins the FA. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League as does the fifth place club (Liverpool). The sixth place club (Tottenham) qualifies for the third round and has to play on July 30. We would not qualify.

 

I sent them a comment asking them to fix their error. I wonder what will happen.

Edited by Redslo
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Liverpool win the FA Cup. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League by doing so and, once again, seventh place also qualifies.

 

All correct, Redslo, with the exception of the bit here....

 

As I read it, both in the circular and the accompanying dcouments, if Liverpool win the FA Cup AND DON'T qualify for the Champions League (or Arsenal for that matter, although less likely) - then the runner up gets the place in the Europa League.

 

It is very clear. "If the domestic cup winner qualified for the UCL, then the association shall enter the club that finishes the domestic league immediately below the club or clubs which qualify for the UEL, instead of the domestic cup runner up"

 

No mention of 'if the domestic cup winner qualifes for the UEL.....'

 

Semantics? Possibly. In reality, Liverpool could prevent us getting Europa League through 7th place, if they lose the FA Cup final to Reading and don't finish top 4!

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All correct, Redslo, with the exception of the bit here....

 

As I read it, both in the circular and the accompanying dcouments, if Liverpool win the FA Cup AND DON'T qualify for the Champions League (or Arsenal for that matter, although less likely) - then the runner up gets the place in the Europa League.

 

It is very clear. "If the domestic cup winner qualified for the UCL, then the association shall enter the club that finishes the domestic league immediately below the club or clubs which qualify for the UEL, instead of the domestic cup runner up"

 

No mention of 'if the domestic cup winner qualifes for the UEL.....'

 

Semantics? Possibly. In reality, Liverpool could prevent us getting Europa League through 7th place, if they lose the FA Cup final to Reading and don't finish top 4!

The reality is if Liverpool win the FA Cup they qualify for Europe because they've won the FA Cup.

 

The runner up doesn't get to take the domestic cup place as well. There's one FA Cup spot for Europe, not two.

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The reality is if Liverpool win the FA Cup they qualify for Europe because they've won the FA Cup.

 

The runner up doesn't get to take the domestic cup place as well. There's one FA Cup spot for Europe, not two.

 

Agree. Also, deja vu.

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OK. Fruedian slip - you know what was meant.....

 

If Liverpool LOSE the FA Cup final to Reading, then we won't qualify as Reading will.

 

Happy now?! :-/

 

This is true which is why we want a Liverpool Arsenal final.

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We don't.

I don't want Brendan and Stevie having their Wembley day.

 

So you'd rather we missed out on Europe than Liverpool win the cup?

 

Honestly, I sometimes wonder whether some of our fans actually support Saints.

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So you'd rather we missed out on Europe than Liverpool win the cup?

 

Honestly, I sometimes wonder whether some of our fans actually support Saints.

 

Bit harsh, as being honest the thought of wanting Liverpool to beat Blackburn this week doesn't sit too well with me!!!

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No, my preference, if we are able to somehow control these things is for Liverpool to lose their replay.

We go on an amazing run, results go our way and we make the champions league.

 

I will leave you to dream of Lallana and Lovren running around Wembley holding the F A Cup.

 

Sorry I'm not a good enough saints fan for you, but sure I will be ok.

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My head hurts.

 

Are we now saying that if the FA Cup winners qualify for the Europa League in virtue of their league position, then the additional Europa League slot goes to the Cup runners-up rather than to the next based Premier League team? That's a bind. I assumed either Arsenal or Liverpool winning meant 7th place was good enough to qualify.

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No, my preference, if we are able to somehow control these things is for Liverpool to lose their replay.

We go on an amazing run, results go our way and we make the champions league.

 

I will leave you to dream of Lallana and Lovren running around Wembley holding the F A Cup.

 

Sorry I'm not a good enough saints fan for you, but sure I will be ok.

 

Lallana will bust his knee doing that and Lovren will trip over the Cup and cause a tsunami somewhere.

 

Srsly though, I don't care about Liverpool winning the cup. Arsenal would probably beat them in a final anyway, especially given the domination at the weekend. Wouldn't it warm your cockles to see Stevie G standing dejected in the centre circle at Wembley at FT, checking to see when the next flight to LA is as Brenda cries in the dressing room?

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My head hurts.

 

Are we now saying that if the FA Cup winners qualify for the Europa League in virtue of their league position, then the additional Europa League slot goes to the Cup runners-up rather than to the next based Premier League team? That's a bind. I assumed either Arsenal or Liverpool winning meant 7th place was good enough to qualify.

 

No, the rule change stipulates that only the winners of the FA Cup get a European place.

 

If either Arsenal or Liverpool win it having already qualified for Europe, the place goes to 7th in the league (us or Spurs).

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No, my preference, if we are able to somehow control these things is for Liverpool to lose their replay.

We go on an amazing run, results go our way and we make the champions league.

 

I will leave you to dream of Lallana and Lovren running around Wembley holding the F A Cup.

 

Sorry I'm not a good enough saints fan for you, but sure I will be ok.

Who on this forum is dreaming of Liverpool winning the cup?

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If it's an Arsenal v Liverpool final, we have no concerns (or, indeed, as long as Arsenal go on to win it, regardless of final opposition).

 

Potential scenarios:

Arsenal v Liverpool, Arsenal win: Arsenal in the Champions League, so Europa League (group stage) place goes to the next highest place in the Premier League instead.

Arsenal v Liverpool, Liverpool win: Liverpool get EL place (group stage), Arsenal already in CL, Liverpool likely to have also qualified for EL through PL, so the PL places shift down one (if Liverpool finish 5th or 6th, that would mean 5th/6th into group stage, 7th into 3rd qualifying round)

Arsenal v Villa or Blackburn, Arsenal win: Arsenal in the CL, so EL (group stage) place goes to the next highest place in the PL.

Arsenal v Villa or Blackburn, Villa or Blackburn win: Villa or Blackburn get EL place (group stage). 7th in PL does NOT qualify.

Reading v Liverpool, Liverpool win: Liverpool likely to have already qualified for EL through PL, so Reading get EL (group stage) place. However, IF Liverpool only finish 7th in PL, Reading would miss out to 5th/6th in PL.

Reading v Liverpool, Reading win: Reading get EL (group stage) place. Liverpool only in EL if they finish top 6 in PL.

Reading v Villa or Blackburn, anyone wins: winner gets EL (group stage) place. 5th also gets group stage place, 6th in 3rd qualifying round.

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This is being made to sound a lot more confusing than it actually is.

 

Basically, 5th and 6th place are guaranteed EL places.

 

If a team that finish within the the top 6 win the FA Cup, then the place allocated to the FA Cup winners goes to the next league place down - i.e 7th.

 

If Reading, Blackburn, or Villa win it, then they get the EL place and 7th doesn't.

It used to be the case that the losing finalists also get a EL place if they weren't already in the Top 6, but that's no longer the case.

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This is being made to sound a lot more confusing than it actually is.

 

Basically, 5th and 6th place are guaranteed EL places.

 

If a team that finish within the the top 6 win the FA Cup, then the place allocated to the FA Cup winners goes to the next league place down - i.e 7th.

 

If Reading, Blackburn, or Villa win it, then they get the EL place and 7th doesn't.

It used to be the case that the losing finalists also get a EL place if they weren't already in the Top 6, but that's no longer the case.

Not true, or at least the wording of the decision by the UEFA organising committee in 2013 is ambiguous enough to not state that exactly.

 

In response to another request by the member associations, the UEFA Executive Committee agreed that the UEFA Club Competitions Committee should make the necessary regulatory changes to allow the best-placed non-qualified domestic championship club to enter the UEFA Europa League from the 2015/16 season, rather than the domestic cup runners-up, should the domestic cup winners also qualify for the UEFA Champions League via the final championship standings.

The bold bit is the key, it makes no mention of having already qualified for the Europa League via the final championship standings.

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If it's an Arsenal v Liverpool final, we have no concerns (or, indeed, as long as Arsenal go on to win it, regardless of final opposition).

 

Potential scenarios:

Arsenal v Liverpool, Arsenal win: Arsenal in the Champions League, so Europa League (group stage) place goes to the next highest place in the Premier League instead.

Arsenal v Liverpool, Liverpool win: Liverpool get EL place (group stage), Arsenal already in CL, Liverpool likely to have also qualified for EL through PL, so the PL places shift down one (if Liverpool finish 5th or 6th, that would mean 5th/6th into group stage, 7th into 3rd qualifying round)

Arsenal v Villa or Blackburn, Arsenal win: Arsenal in the CL, so EL (group stage) place goes to the next highest place in the PL.

Arsenal v Villa or Blackburn, Villa or Blackburn win: Villa or Blackburn get EL place (group stage). 7th in PL does NOT qualify.

Reading v Liverpool, Liverpool win: Liverpool likely to have already qualified for EL through PL, so Reading get EL (group stage) place. However, IF Liverpool only finish 7th in PL, Reading would miss out to 5th/6th in PL.

Reading v Liverpool, Reading win: Reading get EL (group stage) place. Liverpool only in EL if they finish top 6 in PL.

Reading v Villa or Blackburn, anyone wins: winner gets EL (group stage) place. 5th also gets group stage place, 6th in 3rd qualifying round.

 

Best and by far the most clear example yet, thanks Steve.

 

But what it boils down to, if we want Europe, we need to win as many games as we can and finish as high as we can. Simple. (I think)

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Just get on and win our remaining games to give ourselves the best chance possible without the worry about the cup final gifting EL spots. At the moment if we are not scoring freely and as a result winning games and Swansea go on a charge we will end up the same as last season.

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Looks like the Beeb have corrected it, now reads

 

"Should Arsenal or Liverpool win the FA Cup and finish in the top four, their Europa League place will be allocated to the next highest non-qualified club in the Premier League."

 

Even though UEFA's wording is ambiguous surely the same rule should apply if the cup winners finish in a Europa spot? i.e.: the FA cup place goes to the winners or if they have already qualified for Europe it's based on league position.

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Looks like the Beeb have corrected it, now reads

 

"Should Arsenal or Liverpool win the FA Cup and finish in the top four, their Europa League place will be allocated to the next highest non-qualified club in the Premier League."

 

Even though UEFA's wording is ambiguous surely the same rule should apply if the cup winners finish in a Europa spot? i.e.: the FA cup place goes to the winners or if they have already qualified for Europe it's based on league position.

 

Ha, well done Redslo.

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Not true, or at least the wording of the decision by the UEFA organising committee in 2013 is ambiguous enough to not state that exactly.

 

 

The bold bit is the key, it makes no mention of having already qualified for the Europa League via the final championship standings.

Come on Steve. Read those rules again and what they are for.

 

If a team who has not qualified for the Champions League (lets call them Liverpool) wins the FA Cup they qualify for the Europa League as domestic cup winners. In this scenario the runners up don't qualify because they are not the domestic cup winners. The domestic cup provides zero or one entrant to the Europa League each season, but not two.

Edited by CB Fry
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_clubs_in_international_competition

 

There are competing Wikipedia entries but this one shows the FA Cup as being the "best" way of qualifying for the EL.

 

The runners up scenario people are panicking about basically works out as Liverpool saying "we don't want our cup based EL ticket (straight in the group stages) well take our league qualification spot instead (into a play off)."

 

They'll take their Cup spot and the runners up get nothing.

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The BBC has it wrong. This keeps coming up on thread after thread. Cup runners up no longer get into to Europa League. Here is a link. http://www.as.com/misc/circular_nuevo_formato_UCL.pdf

 

It is true that the new rule only applies as of next season. That means that the teams qualify for the next season under the new rules. The next season is the Europa League for 2015-2016 so the results of this season are affected.

 

Assuming the table is the same at the end of the season as it is now, here are the possibilities. Arsenal win FA cup. Since they are in the champions league, seventh place (us) in the premier league gets into the Europa League and plays in the third qualifying round. Our first game would be July 30.

 

Liverpool win the FA Cup. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League by doing so and, once again, seventh place also qualifies.

Anyone else wins the FA. They qualify for the group phase of the Europa League as does the fifth place club (Liverpool). The sixth place club (Tottenham) qualifies for the third round and has to play on July 30. We would not qualify.

 

I sent them a comment asking them to fix their error. I wonder what will happen.

 

Except, as I pointed out on the other thread, the document we've all been taking as gospel (the one you've linked above) actually says if the national cup winner qualifies for the Champions League then the cup runners up don't get a European place. Which implies that if the (FA) Cup winner finishes 5th/6th then the cup runner up gets the place. Obviously if they come 7th they get the cup place for winning the cup as the top 6 take the other European slots.

 

The thing about it "not coming in til next season" is DEFINITELY not true though, it specifically says that it amends this season's qualification rules in readiness for next season's competition.

Edited by The9
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Looks like the Beeb have corrected it, now reads

 

"Should Arsenal or Liverpool win the FA Cup and finish in the top four, their Europa League place will be allocated to the next highest non-qualified club in the Premier League."

 

Even though UEFA's wording is ambiguous surely the same rule should apply if the cup winners finish in a Europa spot? i.e.: the FA cup place goes to the winners or if they have already qualified for Europe it's based on league position.

 

No, and that is precisely the point I'm making - it's the difference between 7th place needing Arsenal to win the FA Cup and 7th place needing either Arsenal or Liverpool to win the FA Cup. It's ambiguous and needs to be clarified by UEFA, preferably before the Cup semi-finals.

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Except, as I pointed out on the other thread, the document we've all been taking as gospel (the one you've linked above) actually says if the national cup winner qualifies for the Champions League then the cup runners up don't get a European place. Which implies that if the (FA) Cup winner finishes 5th/6th then the cup runner up gets the place. Obviously if they come 7th they get the cup place for winning the cup as the top 6 take the other European slots.

 

The thing about it "not coming in til next season" is DEFINITELY not true though, it specifically says that it amends this season's qualification rules in readiness for next season's competition.

I think that rule implies that if a non Champions league qualifier wins the FA Cup then they get the spot and the runner up gets nothing. And it is a rule that hasn't changed.

 

That's what I think it implies.

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The whole point is that the various countries requested that the domestic cup runner doesn't get a EL spot, and that spot instead will go via the League. Surely, in order to fulfil the spirit of this request, it's immaterial if the Cup winner is qualifying for the CL or the EL, even if the wording doesn't specifically say that?

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Come on Steve. Read those rules again and what they are for.

 

If a team who has not qualified for the Champions League (lets call them Liverpool) wins the FA Cup they qualify for the Europa League as domestic cup winners. In this scenario the runners up don't qualify because they are not the domestic cup winners. The domestic cup provides zero or one entrant to the Europa League each season, but not two.

 

I can see your point coming at it from that angle, but it does contain an ambiguity by stating that the Cup runners up qualify if the winners make the Champions League - but not stating what happens if they already make the Europa League. You appear to have nailed the underlying logic though, and I'm happy enough that it makes sense.

 

Interesting that Liverpool could come 7th and win the FA Cup and get directly into the Group stages of the Europa League whilst Saints could come 6th and still have to play in the 3rd Qualifying round.

 

What happened to Chelsea's League Cup winner qualification position? Does that take N6 if it's not a club from N1-N4 but disappear otherwise?

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I think that rule implies that if a non Champions league qualifier wins the FA Cup then they get the spot and the runner up gets nothing. And it is a rule that hasn't changed.

 

That's what I think it implies.

 

Fair enough, I've rethought the logic and I don't disagree. The rule about FA Cup runners up generally has changed though, hence the confusion. They would have qualified for something if their opponent had already made Europe - though come to think of it, no idea if the FA Cup qualification used to take precedence over the Europa League positions before... it's only been in place since the Cup Winners' Cup got the boot, and I'm not sure it's been won by a team outside the CL places but inside the EL places in the interim.

Edited by The9
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I can see your point coming at it from that angle, but it does contain an ambiguity by stating that the Cup runners up qualify if the winners make the Champions League - but not stating what happens if they already make the Europa League. You appear to have nailed the underlying logic though, and I'm happy enough that it makes sense.

 

Interesting that Liverpool could come 7th and win the FA Cup and get directly into the Group stages of the Europa League whilst Saints could come 6th and still have to play in the 3rd Qualifying round.

 

What happened to Chelsea's League Cup winner qualification position? Does that take N6 if it's not a club from N1-N4 but disappear otherwise?

The "second domestic cup winner" position in both England and France (who are the only two nations with two EL-qualifying cup competitions) is the lowest-ranked position, so had Sheffield United gone on to win the League Cup, they'd have gone into the third qualifying round. As Chelsea won it, and they've more or less already qualified for the CL, the EL place for that competition reverts to the next position in the PL.

 

As a result, it's possible to have the oddity whereby Liverpool win the FA Cup, finish 7th, but go into the EL group stage whereas the team finishing 6th has to play in the qualifying rounds.

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6th place guarantees EL anyway because Chelsea are heading to the CL and won the League Cup. What could happen is that 5th place does not guarantee direct access to the group stage, which depends on who wins the FA Cup. The only change is that losers don't make it to Europe.

 

If Arsenal win and qualify for the CL, then 5th will be awarded a spot in the EL group stage. This also means that the 7th team gets a EL place.

If someone else wins, they will be awarded with that spot and the 5th placed team will start in the play-offs, meaning the 6th placed team starts in the 3rd qualifying round. No spot for 7th.

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It was his post that caused most of the confusion as it implied there was a situation whereby the Cup runner-up could still qualify for a place in the EL which I do not believe to be the case.

 

I suspect he nicked that from me as well, seeing as I raised it on here a few days ago.

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