cobbysouth Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Times up for me making excuses for pelle, starting to believe it was him being lucky at the early in the season rather than him being in bad form now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 I really hoped his goal against England in midweek would give him a confidence boost, but it was just a case of same old same old from him today. It's all very well pointing at the wonder save from Howard early on, but you have to ask the question: why is Pelle trying to lob him instead of smashing it and giving the keeper no chance? As somebody else has already mentioned, he is a defender's dream to play against because he is such an ineffective target man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Could we not afford Lambert and Rodriguez then? Neither are exactly top top strikers either J-rod had one good season (his second Pelle is still in his first season) and Lambert while an absolute legend IMO is hardly in the same bracket as Costa, Klinsman or Shearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BotleySaint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Pelle is far from being rubbish. But he needs a break from Saints or needs to play up alongside someone. Playing him as the lone striker with attacking midfielders in behind doesn't suit him. Currently I think he just needs dropping so we can try something new with Long up there. Bring him back in as a sub a few times and take the pressure off him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Gallagher has scored one goal in about 7 or 8 U21 games. Unless you have travelled to some of the away games up north you won't have seen them all as not all are streamed. Hardly the form of someone who is going to come in and take the place of Pelle. Suprised nobody has mentioned Seager as he usually gets a few shouts after a game we don't score in. I have not said he should come in and take the place of Pelle, I was merely challenging your sweeping statement that he has been "largely poor and out of form" which is simply not true. Yes he has only scored one goal in the four games he has played in (I have seen everyone and seen some live) but I know for a fact that Koeman has been impressed, which rather undermines your unfair criticism of the lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Pelle is far from being rubbish. But he needs a break from Saints or needs to play up alongside someone. Playing him as the lone striker with attacking midfielders in behind doesn't suit him. Currently I think he just needs dropping so we can try something new with Long up there. Bring him back in as a sub a few times and take the pressure off him. Didn't we drop him at Stamford Bridge? Didn't that work out well enough for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuki Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 I have not said he should come in and take the place of Pelle, I was merely challenging your sweeping statement that he has been "largely poor and out of form" which is simply not true. Yes he has only scored one goal in the four games he has played in (I have seen everyone and seen some live) but I know for a fact that Koeman has been impressed, which rather undermines your unfair criticism of the lad. No real criticism of Gallagher - he is working his way back after a long injury layoff, but he isnt suddenly going to come into the first team. When we arent scoring people look for other names but if Koeman thought Gallagher or Seager could really help now they would be on the bench, and they aren't. Just saying "Pelle is crap, give Gallagher a go" is the type of thing fans say but its ridiculous. If Gallagher was banging in goals in the U21s then maybe, but he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Give him the Hull game. I think he will grab a goal or 2. He is a class striker, just low on confidence at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 No real criticism of Gallagher - he is working his way back after a long injury layoff, but he isnt suddenly going to come into the first team. When we arent scoring people look for other names but if Koeman thought Gallagher or Seager could really help now they would be on the bench, and they aren't. Just saying "Pelle is crap, give Gallagher a go" is the type of thing fans say but its ridiculous. If Gallagher was banging in goals in the U21s then maybe, but he isn't. Agree. Gallagher is a good prospect but not an option right now. Pelle going through a tough time, but isn't crap. Drop if needed but the likes of Mane could play up top and would be more realistic IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 He just gets in the way and he's so central with barely any movement. I miss the days when our front 3 didnt have fixed positions. And yet we are having our best PL season ever....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 And yet we are having our best PL season ever....... God this response is so tiresome. Yes we are, and we could have been even better if we had a striker. He has made almost no difference this season, in terms of stats 2 points gained. Just be cause we have done well doesn't mean that there are some passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSaint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Long and mane did well at Chelsea. You're the negative one. I'm negative when it's warranted, you would be negative if we won the prem. Gallagher worth a shout. Seager is far better imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 God this response is so tiresome. Yes we are, and we could have been even better if we had a striker. He has made almost no difference this season, in terms of stats 2 points gained. Just be cause we have done well doesn't mean that there are some passengers. Not tiresome at all more an indication of the ridiculous over the top expectations some saints fans have these days. The whole squad has contributed to this season trying single out some players as not contributing is bollix IMO. No one was complaining before Christmas when he was banging in goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Just makes us much worse was absolutely woeful today. He wasn't woeful at all, stop f*****g moaning. Koeman should have used Mane better and we still lack a really creative 'No. 10', those are more our problems than Pellè (yes, he could obviously be better.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Gallagher? Come on. He has been largely poor and out of form for the U21s. You are as much of a negative wally as I am, apart from you take it too seriously and get offended by internet forum posts. Lighten up! Sorry mate but what, Sammy g has been out with injuries and done a great job since coming back in for the u21's. Vent your fury where you will, but don't pick on a 19 year old who lost his dad and you think you can get away with just because he is out of sight. What kind of fan are you ffs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 God this response is so tiresome. Yes we are, and we could have been even better if we had a striker. He has made almost no difference this season, in terms of stats 2 points gained. Just be cause we have done well doesn't mean that there are some passengers. Please tell me you're not being serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 I have not said he should come in and take the place of Pelle, I was merely challenging your sweeping statement that he has been "largely poor and out of form" which is simply not true. Yes he has only scored one goal in the four games he has played in (I have seen everyone and seen some live) but I know for a fact that Koeman has been impressed, which rather undermines your unfair criticism of the lad. How do you know for a fact Koeman has been impressed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Sorry mate but what, Sammy g has been out with injuries and done a great job since coming back in for the u21's. Vent your fury where you will, but don't pick on a 19 year old who lost his dad and you think you can get away with just because he is out of sight. What kind of fan are you ffs..... I'm talking about someone saying drop Pelle and play Gallagher. IMO he isnt a better option and isn't banging in goals for the U21s demanding first team selection. That is all. Bringing his personal circumstances into it is very poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 He wasn't woeful at all, stop f*****g moaning. Koeman should have used Mane better and we still lack a really creative 'No. 10', those are more our problems than Pellè (yes, he could obviously be better.....) Exactly our AMs (Davis and JWP) have scored a total of 0 goals this season between them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSaint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 The main thing about Pelle is the system. 433 is a system often and mainly played by attacking teams with a non target man type in the centre, the striker or fwd (as they are often known as) needs to use pace, flair and movement to beat the oppositions defence. The wingers in the 433 have to come off the wings when the ball is on the opposite wing or when the fwd moves to the wing (in hoping in taking one of the central defenders with him) to use their pace to break though the heart of the defence, this upsets the oppositions man marking system. The three midfielders should consist of 1 "more defensive" midfielder, a box-box type and a more attacking who has the intelligence to get into spaces, if there is space on the wing, the winger who would be in that position would then go infield and play as a 2nd fwd in that move. It's all about movement and having a great football mind and hoping all your attacking players are on the same wave length. Now as you can see..Pelle does not fit into that fwd type of player, he has no pace, no flair and next to no movement off the ball. Our wingers are often stuck onto the wing in which does not help Pelle and the 3rd (more attacking type of midfielder) never really helps Pelle out either or gets onto the wing allowing a winger to move more central. We also have no midfielders who are a massive goal threat. Davis or Jwp are probably used for the more attacking midfielder as Morgan and Vic are the more defensive ones, none of those 2 are any goal threat what so ever. Yes Pelle did well at the beginning of the season, he was an unknown but we also had our midfielders helping out more and our wingers cutting in giving Pelle the support which they need. Something since around the Sunderland game has changed, yes we have won games since, but we havn't played or looked good infront of goal since apart from against Everton at home when we played a different type of system (352) and dominated them. I really don't think we should play this 433 formation unless we change the fwd to someone who fits that role. We have the wingers both in the first team and the academy, we just don't have the fwd who can move the defence around or run at the defence to create something out of nothing. If koeman wants to use Pelle, the 352 formation would suit us better. He used it in Holland with great success, we should use it more here, its a really good formation when played right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Koeman has tended to go with 3-5-2 when we have played teams who play with two strikers but not against the majority who play with one up front. Interesting option though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Koeman has tended to go with 3-5-2 when we have played teams who play with two strikers but not against the majority who play with one up front. Interesting option though. Not really. We've played it as much against teams with one up top. It was the product of pragmatism - in particular, to compensate for the absence of our Morgan and Victor and the need for more solidity when we were hitting the skids (post league cup exit). It looked OK, though we ditched it as soon as Clyne got injured (it requires two proper wingbacks ) and CBs who are comfortable in distribution (Gardos was terrible as the right sided CB at WBA). 3-5-2 can also sacrifice some attacking energy. Opposition setup has little or nothing to do with things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Not really. We've played it as much against teams with one up top. It was the product of pragmatism - in particular, to compensate for the absence of our Morgan and Victor and the need for more solidity when we were hitting the skids (post league cup exit). It looked OK, though we ditched it as soon as Clyne got injured (it requires two proper wingbacks ) and CBs who are comfortable in distribution (Gardos was terrible as the right sided CB at WBA). 3-5-2 can also sacrifice some attacking energy. Opposition setup has little or nothing to do with things. He did specifically say for Palace and WBA away that it was at least in part due to the fact they play with two strikers. Obviously our available personnel is another key factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 He did specifically say for Palace and WBA away that it was at least in part due to the fact they play with two strikers. Obviously our available personnel is another key factor. We first showcased it against Everton (only Lukaku up top). We haven't played it against all teams with two up (think Burnley last week with Ings and Vokes) while we ditched it pretty quickly after WBA scored - perhaps because it sacrifices too much attack for defence, not helped by Gardos who didn't feel comfortable enough to spread the ball out to Clyne, making our attacks very unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Gallagher seems to of become a much better player while he has been injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSaint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 We first showcased it against Everton (only Lukaku up top). We haven't played it against all teams with two up (think Burnley last week with Ings and Vokes) while we ditched it pretty quickly after WBA scored - perhaps because it sacrifices too much attack for defence, not helped by Gardos who didn't feel comfortable enough to spread the ball out to Clyne, making our attacks very unbalanced. Well didnt we play it with Morgan and Vic in midfield? it was like playing with 5 defenders, we really should of dropped Vic and asked Morgan to play as a box-box. You dont really have a defensive midfiedler in the 352 as the sweeper is that, 2 box-box and 1 attacking midfielder, 2 strikers and 2 wing backs who are allowed to get into the oppositions box, it has more attacking to it than ppl think. When you defend you defend with numbers and when you attack you can attack with numbers and you'll always have 3 defenders vs 1 or 2 attackers. Think brazil before they became ****, Carlos and Carfu as the wingback era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Well didnt we play it with Morgan and Vic in midfield? it was like playing with 5 defenders, we really should of dropped Vic and asked Morgan to play as a box-box. You dont really have a defensive midfiedler in the 352 as the sweeper is that, 2 box-box and 1 attacking midfielder, 2 strikers and 2 wing backs who are allowed to get into the oppositions box, it has more attacking to it than ppl think. When you defend you defend with numbers and when you attack you can attack with numbers and you'll always have 3 defenders vs 1 or 2 attackers. Think brazil before they became ****, Carlos and Carfu as the wingback era. Completely agree. Said something similar earlier. It's not a coincidence we first used it against Everton, the first game both Victor and Morgan. I think only Morgan started up at Palace the next time we used it. Davis and JWP were the other midfielders - closer to your understanding, though still not quite there. At WBA in which both Morgan and Victor featured, it was complete overkill. Am sure 3-5-2 can be quite attacking (and it didn't look too bad at an admittedly poor palace side), though like every formation, it is flexible enough to cater different philosophies, different emphases on attack and defence. It's widely reported that Koeman used 3-5-2 at Feyenoord whenever they needed to grind out difficult games away from home, even though it ended up becoming his system of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Agree. Gallagher is a good prospect but not an option right now. Pelle going through a tough time, but isn't crap. Drop if needed but the likes of Mane could play up top and would be more realistic IMO. Gallagher was pretty poor last year tbh, as bad as pellè has been recently he is still a much much better option than Gallagher. Never seen anything of the lad to get excited about tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Well said Wade. Thousands can see it but Koaman can't which is worrying really ... Nor Antonio Conte, strange. Sure you know better than Koeman and Conte though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Gallagher was pretty poor last year tbh, as bad as pellè has been recently he is still a much much better option than Gallagher. Never seen anything of the lad to get excited about tbh Was more of a makeweight towards the end of last season after Jrod went down, utilised for his relative pace and hard-running (compared to Lambert). Long does a much better job of that. For a big lad, thought Gallagher was pretty weak in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Was more of a makeweight towards the end of last season after Jrod went down, utilised for his relative pace and hard-running (compared to Lambert). Long does a much better job of that. For a big lad, thought Gallagher was pretty weak in the air. Fair comment, but tbh I've thought that Pellè is pretty poor with his head. Was amazed when he glanced that one in for italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Yet he's still getting called up by Italy. Just confirms the greasy ities know nothing about football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 As the season has gone on our success has been built on defensive organisation more than any attacking flair. This approach means that we have to take our chances when they come but with Pelle out of form and luck, and Long not a very good finisher, much of our good work is undermined. A lack of striking options is hurting us, but our attacking midfield players are not chipping in with enough goals either though. Djuricic hasn't really contributed much and I don't know why we didn't push the boat out for a striker on loan in January given the position we found ourselves in. It doesn't distract too much from an amazing season but in football you always ponder 'what if' and it seemed far too sensible to get a striker in January - moreso given Gallagher's and Jay Rod's injury status - and yet it didn't happen so I do wonder why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydenhamssocks Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 The main thing about Pelle is the system. 433 is a system often and mainly played by attacking teams with a non target man type in the centre, the striker or fwd (as they are often known as) needs to use pace, flair and movement to beat the oppositions defence. The wingers in the 433 have to come off the wings when the ball is on the opposite wing or when the fwd moves to the wing (in hoping in taking one of the central defenders with him) to use their pace to break though the heart of the defence, this upsets the oppositions man marking system. The three midfielders should consist of 1 "more defensive" midfielder, a box-box type and a more attacking who has the intelligence to get into spaces, if there is space on the wing, the winger who would be in that position would then go infield and play as a 2nd fwd in that move. It's all about movement and having a great football mind and hoping all your attacking players are on the same wave length. Now as you can see..Pelle does not fit into that fwd type of player, he has no pace, no flair and next to no movement off the ball. Our wingers are often stuck onto the wing in which does not help Pelle and the 3rd (more attacking type of midfielder) never really helps Pelle out either or gets onto the wing allowing a winger to move more central. We also have no midfielders who are a massive goal threat. Davis or Jwp are probably used for the more attacking midfielder as Morgan and Vic are the more defensive ones, none of those 2 are any goal threat what so ever. Yes Pelle did well at the beginning of the season, he was an unknown but we also had our midfielders helping out more and our wingers cutting in giving Pelle the support which they need. Something since around the Sunderland game has changed, yes we have won games since, but we havn't played or looked good infront of goal since apart from against Everton at home when we played a different type of system (352) and dominated them. I really don't think we should play this 433 formation unless we change the fwd to someone who fits that role. We have the wingers both in the first team and the academy, we just don't have the fwd who can move the defence around or run at the defence to create something out of nothing. If koeman wants to use Pelle, the 352 formation would suit us better. He used it in Holland with great success, we should use it more here, its a really good formation when played right. Absolutely spot on ! It's the system that best suits the make up of the squad,which presumably is why Koeman brought in the players he did. Obviously having some flexibility within the squad to change the system if required is also necessary, but for me,the 3-5-2 gives us the best options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Exactly our AMs (Davis and JWP) have scored a total of 0 goals this season between them.... We should have been playing Schneiderlin Wanyama and Cork right from the start when they were all available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roo1976 Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 I really have but pelle hasn't scored a goal for us now in the league in 2015. Roger when you posted this it was 4.14 not 20.15 just well you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roo1976 Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Gallagher seems to of become a much better player while he has been injured. his value has also risen now worth more than before thats what supply and demand does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 It says something about our quality that a team like Everton are happy to nick a scruffy goal and then sit back and play tedious, kill the game football against at home. It's a little disappointing that we have dropped points in a few recent games where we have been the better team but it's really not worth getting worked up about. Anyone that is should take a step back, look at our squad and manager and appreciate just what we have. We've pretty much played the same style of football all season. Remember this is the way the club plays and will not change much under the current regime. It has brought us much success, and will carry on doing so in the future. If people have an issue with us trying to pass the ball into the net then they may as well stop watching because we sure aren't changing this anytime soon. I am very proud of our team and the way they have played this season. Qualifying for Europe will be a superb achievement even if it comes from relying on the FA Cup winners to help she sure our place. Enjoy where we are, enjoy what we have done and enjoy what is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 I really hoped his goal against England in midweek would give him a confidence boost, but it was just a case of same old same old from him today. It's all very well pointing at the wonder save from Howard early on, but you have to ask the question: why is Pelle trying to lob him instead of smashing it and giving the keeper no chance? As somebody else has already mentioned, he is a defender's dream to play against because he is such an ineffective target man. How on earth could that chance be smashed lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Just to add that Everton's fans were possibly the worst I've ever seen. A full stadium yet they sung maybe once in about the 80th minute. Incredibly poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Those last 2 posts should have gone on the post match thread. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Don't think Pelle's problems are caused by the formation. Didn't Koeman play 433 at Feyenoord where Pelle scored all those goals? I stand to be corrected as I'm not entirely sure, and probably will be. In any case, Koeman of anybody would know how to play Pelle. It's simply loss of form allied with some individual bad luck and a collective failure to create and score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 And yet we are having our best PL season ever....... Precisely. Most of us would have given our right arm for the season we have had after so many changes last summer. We were never going to win every game but the way some players (and even the manager sometimes) get pilloried after a loss is appalling. Pelle was not lucky earlier in the season. He scores at the highest level and has shown he can play. When we lose we rarely get played off the park. We are a decent side and worth our place in the league. Yes, there are failings - same with every side. If we build well and learn from this season for next I am more than happy with the way things are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roboze Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 Its a bit embarrasing how many *****y little whingers get here! other teams fans must come here and laugh their socks off!! Man up girlies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 +1 and a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 is it not possible to be delighted with our season AND being able to recognise that we have been carrying a pretty poor player for some time..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 is it not possible to be delighted with our season AND being able to recognise that we have been carrying a pretty poor player for some time..? But Pelle is not a poor player. His flick that Howard somehow kept out was sublime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 But Pelle is not a poor player. His flick that Howard somehow kept out was sublime. IMO, he is. I think we are better without him in the side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 We will have to differ on that. I did enjoy watching us at Chelsea with the pace, but feel that Pelle is not getting the service.The chance yesterday was down to his skill rather than the quality of cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 5 April, 2015 Share Posted 5 April, 2015 IMO, he is. I think we are better without him in the side Poor players do not get into the Italian national team. Poor players ply their trade at places like Fratton Park. But yeah, you know better than both our manager and Italy's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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