Life stories - John Barnes

[Turkish]

Another former player claiming his skin colour effects his chances of getting a managers job.

 

Nothing to do with his abject failure at Celtic and tranmere then?

[hypochondriac]

Another former player claiming his skin colour effects his chances of getting a managers job.

 

Nothing to do with his abject failure at Celtic and tranmere then?

 

Yep. The number of black managers has increased so it's harder to play that card so now the likes of Barnes has to delude himself that it's because of his skin colour. Someone like Houghton hasn't had a problem getting a new job has he? Probably because he isn't a bad manager.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Another former player claiming his skin colour effects his chances of getting a managers job.

 

Nothing to do with his abject failure at Celtic and tranmere then?

 

Actually, and I wouldn't usually defend him, but I heard him on 5live on Monday and he wasn't say it was concious racism, more that due to the lack of succesful black managers subconsciously people feel that black managers aren't very good.

 

He was also saying he would have got longer at Tranmere than the 6 weeks he got if he was white, but conceded he'd still have been sacked pretty soon after as he did a poor job.

 

He also said club owners etc always gave a chance to get a job, but rarely chose the black guy - not because they were racist but because there was a perception that black managers aren't very good - which is pretty true. He was saying the same as if an Indian manager came in. He said they need a couple of Mourinho type black managers to change the perception.

 

Didn't see Life Stories and the way that came across but that was what was said on 5live.

[Saint Mikey]

I think this attitude genuinely hurts the prospects of black and ethnic managers. Same as Ince who had a couple of decent appointments in the bottom division followed by 3 failures. He moaned he had to start at the bottom, yet has proved he was only good enough for the bottom league.

 

The stats show that very few black players take coaching badges (in comparison). So, they're bound to be under-represented in the game. This attitude screams of entitlement though, especially when backed by a record like Barnes has.

 

There are plenty of white British coaches who got one chance as a Mgr and that's it. Les Reed springs to mind, as does Ricky Sbragia and I can't see John Carver getting a Mgr's job.

[hypochondriac]

I think this attitude genuinely hurts the prospects of black and ethnic managers. Same as Ince who had a couple of decent appointments in the bottom division followed by 3 failures. He moaned he had to start at the bottom, yet has proved he was only good enough for the bottom league.

 

The stats show that very few black players take coaching badges (in comparison). So, they're bound to be under-represented in the game. This attitude screams of entitlement though, especially when backed by a record like Barnes has.

 

There are plenty of white British coaches who got one chance as a Mgr and that's it. Les Reed springs to mind, as does Ricky Sbragia and I can't see John Carver getting a Mgr's job.

 

Brilliant post. What they should be doing is trying to get the next hotshot manager to be black. If we had a brilliant black manager with a cracking record then no one is going to give a damn about his skin colour. It's all about how they perform and unfortunately most black managers have been totally sh*te.

[saint si]

http://newsthump.com/2015/03/31/john-barnes-urged-to-consider-the-possibility-hes-just-not-very-good-at-managing/

[Turkish]

The thing that gets me about this whole argument is that whilst there are a lot of black players now that hasn't always been the case. Players playing 10-15 years ago are now at the age where they either are or could have gone into management. The England 2000 euro squad contained only 3 black players, Paul Ince, Emile Heskey and Sol Campbell. Paul ince as the only one who went into management. He got a premier league management job and failed. Of the white players only 3 of the 19 went into management. Southgate, Adams and for a short time Shearer. All three of those were failures to one degree or another as well. Shearer only managed for about 3

Months and that was only because he was a Geordie. So the facts don't stack Up the arguement that black ex players don't get a chance. Maybe people should stop worrying about skinn colour and investigating why so few English ex-players make decent managers. After all, it's over 20 years since one last won the top flight championship.

[Batman]

They were talking about this the other night on Talksport. It was suggested that the FA should bring a varient of the 'Rooney Rul' over here.

 

Any mangerial job going in the football league/prem, the club looking for a new manager should HAVE TO interview a black/mixed race bod and a woman.....

 

 

Really???

[Verbal]

And here we go again with Turkish's thread on race, part 72.

[View From The Top]

And here we go again with Turkish's thread on race, part 72.

 

He's correct though. Football is colour-blind, all it wants is success regardless of race, religion or creed & Barnes failed as a manager because he was poor & has been judged on that, not his skin colour.

[Turkish]

They were talking about this the other night on Talksport. It was suggested that the FA should bring a varient of the 'Rooney Rul' over here.

 

Any mangerial job going in the football league/prem, the club looking for a new manager should HAVE TO interview a black/mixed race bod and a woman.....

 

 

Really???

 

Completely ridiculous. These are multi million pound businesses and the manager is the most important person at the club. are you going interview credible candidates putting the club in the hands of an experienced guy who has proven himself or waste time interviewing rio Ferdinand and Ashley cole because you're told too?

 

The reality is that there are few credible black candidates for top flight managerial roles at the moment. The ones that are get jobs. Things will change in the future as the higher percentage of black players reach retirement age but we are probably 10 years away from there being a handful or more of credible, experienced black managers who would be suitable for premier league jobs. That isn't racism it's FACT.

[Turkish]

And here we go again with Turkish's thread on race, part 72.

 

It's about people using race as a excuse to cover poor performance.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The stats show that very few black players take coaching badges (in comparison). So, they're bound to be under-represented in the game. This attitude screams of entitlement though, especially when backed by a record like Barnes has.

 

But an alternative perspective may be that very few black players take coaching badges (in comparison) because they do not feel the opportunities are out there for them. Is that an excuse not to take them? Probably not, but it may be a reason why badges aren't taken.

 

There certainly is a disproportionate percentage of black representation in coaching and management in the game. It is hard to find an answer for it, but I certainly feel that the issue would be better addressed if those who do speak out about it (such as Sol Campbell) did so in a more constructive manner as his approach in particular is quite hostile.

[pap]

[hypochondriac]

And here we go again with Turkish's thread on race, part 72.

 

So are you really saying that a top quality black manager would not be as in demand as any other top manager? Because I think that is nonsense. If we had the black Alex Ferguson then people would be falling over themselves to hire him and rightly so.

Edited 1 April, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Verbal]

So are you really saying that a top quality black manager would not be as in demand as any other top manager? Because I think that is nonsense. If we had the knack Alex Ferguson then people would be falling over themselves to hire him and rightly so.

 

Weird.

[hypochondriac]

Weird.

 

Why not address the points then rather than the poster? Playing the ball not the man in other words.

[TheCholulaKid]

Why not address the points then rather than the poster? Playing the ball not the man in other words.

 

If you hadn't shown yourself up as a cock for nigh on 23,000 posts, then this might be possible...

 

For once, Turkish probably has a point. Odd that it is yet another Turkish thread about skin colour though....

[hypochondriac]

If you hadn't shown yourself up as a cock for nigh on 23,000 posts, then this might be possible...

 

For once, Turkish probably has a point. Odd that it is yet another Turkish thread about skin colour though....

 

Really I was talking about Turkish rather than myself. It isn't that hard to do, you just managed it yourself.

[so22saint]

http://newsthump.com/2015/03/31/john-barnes-urged-to-consider-the-possibility-hes-just-not-very-good-at-managing/

 

“But if your club management record includes an almost 50% loss rate – even though you managed Celtic who could win 75% of their games if they were managed by Nick Clegg – then you’re going to struggle.”

 

ha ha

[TheCholulaKid]

Really I was talking about Turkish rather than myself.

 

OK. Well, nigh on 27,000 posts in his case.

[hypochondriac]

OK. Well, nigh on 27,000 posts in his case.

 

Well even you reckon he has a point here so it doesn't really matter that he brought up a race issue.

[Turkish]

OK. Well, nigh on 27,000 posts in his case.

 

Pretty weird that you accuse other people of being cocks when the one acting like one on this thread is you.

[Bearsy]

Another former player claiming his skin colour effects his chances of getting a managers job.

 

Yeah, but when they were looking for someone to rap on a hit single, who got that opportunity? Not the white bros

[Coxford_lou]

So are you really saying that a top quality black manager would not be as in demand as any other top manager? Because I think that is nonsense. If we had the black Alex Ferguson then people would be falling over themselves to hire him and rightly so.

 

Are you saying a non-white manager would be given as many opportunities as Harry Redknapp to fail?

[hypochondriac]

Are you saying a non-white manager would be given as many opportunities as Harry Redknapp to fail?

 

I would say John Barnes has been given as many chances to fail as a host of white managers. Les Reid for one as was pointed out earlier. Jan Portvliet is another with a saints connection. The reason Harry has had so many chances is because he appeals to a certain type of owner, has connections in the media to make him look better than he is and has actually achieved success at some of the clubs he has been at. It certainly has nothing to do with his skin colour.

[Jonnyboy]

So are you really saying that a top quality black manager would not be as in demand as any other top manager? Because I think that is nonsense. If we had the black Alex Ferguson then people would be falling over themselves to hire him and rightly so.

 

So basically black people aren't intelligent enough to be good managers?

[hypochondriac]

So basically black people aren't intelligent enough to be good managers?

 

Rubbish from you again. No black managers have currently shown themselves to be a genius world class manager in the way Ferguson and Mourinho have. I hope that someone does come through because it will stop all this nonsense. The likes of. Ince have had a number of chances and have been absolute rubbish. Being black has absolutely zero effect on their ability to manage, I would have thought I wouldn't have to state the obvious...

[Bearsy]

Black Alex Ferguson is sitting at home playing FIFA hypo, cos no-one will give him a chance. He's prob got Black Mourinho coming round for tea.

[View From The Top]

So basically black people aren't intelligent enough to be good managers?

 

He didn't say that. His general point is that a successful manager will be snapped up regardless of colour/creed/religion and I totally agree.

[Coxford_lou]

Rubbish from you again. No black managers have currently shown themselves to be a genius world class manager in the way Ferguson and Mourinho have. I hope that someone does come through because it will stop all this nonsense. The likes of. Ince have had a number of chances and have been absolute rubbish. Being black has absolutely zero effect on their ability to manage, I would have thought I wouldn't have to state the obvious...

 

I'm curious why you keep referencing top class managers when they are such a low percentage of the profession were talking about, and have often come up through the ranks to get to where they are now.

 

The list of managers who failed, learnt from that failure, and then further developed their career is pretty long. Off the back of this, I'm confused why you're pointing to John Barnes as a reason why this debate isn't relevant.

[hutch]

So basically black people aren't intelligent enough to be good managers?

Or alternatively, intelligent black people don't want to be football managers?

[hypochondriac]

I'm curious why you keep referencing top class managers when they are such a low percentage of the profession were talking about, and have often come up through the ranks to get to where they are now.

 

The list of managers who failed, learnt from that failure, and then further developed their career is pretty long. Off the back of this, I'm confused why you're pointing to John Barnes as a reason why this debate isn't relevant.

 

Is the number of black managers who have failed and then not given another chance any higher than the white number? I don't know the figures but I can't imagine there would be a huge disparity. If there was a campaign to get more black and minority people to take their coaching badges then that is something I would wholeheartedly support. Get a load of talented young black coaches banging down the doors trying to get these jobs and then people may have a point about discrimination. It seems to me that most black people who shout racism are actually the ones with very little managerial talent, who have been given more than one chance and who have been very poor.

Edited 1 April, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Saint Mikey]

The obvious key is to get more black and ethnic people into coaching. That way over time, more will make it through to management. The point that is thrown about, that there are (x) amount of top black players in the Prem, so there should be (y) amount of black managers is a load of ****** for a number of reasons.

 

Picking up on Turkish's point above, I think less and less top-level Pro players will become managers now, due to how much they earn. Will a player who's amassed a £40/£50m fortune decide that getting dogs abuse and working 12 hour days is worth the hassle?

 

Look at the British managers in the Prem. Pardew, Pulis, Allardyce, Dyche, Monk, Pearson all had modest playing careers, or played at a time when there wasn't the same money in the game. All probably needed to work in football which has partly driven their motivation to succeed.

 

Generally successful players don't make good managers. It's becoming more of a theme that people with modest playing careers are doing a better job in management, again prob a desire for achievement. They are, of course, exceptions - Guardiola being a prime example.

 

I just can't see that in a game where a club like ours, who go to great lengths to gain an advantage by even taking custom made mattresses to away games, would allow the colour of someone's skin or their race to be any sort of factor in the decision making process. If we did, we'd potentially be handing this advantage to an opposition.

[hypochondriac]

Koeman being another example...

[Bearsy]

John Barnes is making sweeping and prejudiced assumptions about a whole group of people, when he infers that all chairman are racist. Making offensive comments about someone, based purely on their job, is not on IMO. I hope they Kick Him Out

[Golden Balls]

Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank seems to be doing alright.

Chris Powell had a decent spell at Charlton until he was sacked after they went on a terrible run and were bottom of the league. He was out of work for less than 6 months.

Chris Hughton has never struggled for work.

Chris Ramsey is currently in the hot seat at a premier league club. He's not doing too well but you can't tell me that if he managed to guide QPR from relegation to top half that he wouldn't be offered a job.

Chris Kiwomya had a poor record at Notts County.

Frank Rijkaard has rejected a few Premier League jobs.

Paul Ince and John Barnes have been pretty terrible.

 

So no. Complete myth that there are a lack of black managers because of racism. And if a rule is bought in to positive/reverse discrimination it will only lead to causing racism. Hire the best man for the job...that will never include John Barnes.

[Toadhall Saint]

Good or great players rarely make great managers. There are some exceptions Beckenbauer (sp) springs to mind straight a way.

 

Win and you'll get to the top in sport lose and you won't - nothing to do with colour. Footie is crying out for a black manager but there won't be one until there is a black manager good enough.

[Jonnyboy]

He didn't say that. His general point is that a successful manager will be snapped up regardless of colour/creed/religion and I totally agree.

 

You can't be successful without being given decent chance in the first place. We all know Fergie got plenty of time at Man U.

 

Anyway, no manager has the golden formula anyway bar a very select few.

[Goatboy]

Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank seems to be doing alright.

Chris Powell had a decent spell at Charlton until he was sacked after they went on a terrible run and were bottom of the league. He was out of work for less than 6 months.

Chris Hughton has never struggled for work.

Chris Ramsey is currently in the hot seat at a premier league club. He's not doing too well but you can't tell me that if he managed to guide QPR from relegation to top half that he wouldn't be offered a job.

Chris Kiwomya had a poor record at Notts County.

Frank Rijkaard has rejected a few Premier League jobs.

Paul Ince and John Barnes have been pretty terrible.

 

So no. Complete myth that there are a lack of black managers because of racism. And if a rule is bought in to positive/reverse discrimination it will only lead to causing racism. Hire the best man for the job...that will never include John Barnes.

 

Unless the job is eating pies.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Another former player claiming his skin colour effects his chances of getting a managers job.

 

Nothing to do with his abject failure at Celtic and tranmere then?

 

Or being English - English managers are a dying breed certainly in the Prem

[hypochondriac]

You can't be successful without being given decent chance in the first place. We all know Fergie got plenty of time at Man U.

 

Anyway, no manager has the golden formula anyway bar a very select few.

 

Fergie had great success before United though so he earned more time. As has been stated, many black managers have been give chances it's just that there doesn't seem to be many with the badges and even fewer who actually perform to a decent standard.

[Jonnyboy]

Fergie had great success before United though so he earned more time. As has been stated, many black managers have been give chances it's just that there doesn't seem to be many with the badges and even fewer who actually perform to a decent standard.

 

Anyone know the stats on the racial differences of those doing their coaching training?

[aintforever]

Barnes is talking nonsense, football has to be one of the most ethnically diverse industries in the country.

[hypochondriac]

Anyone know the stats on the racial differences of those doing their coaching training?

 

This has been reported on before. From memory it was the BBC and the guardian that said that the amount of black people taking their badges was low. IMO this is what should be worked on.

[Smirking_Saint]

Are you saying a non-white manager would be given as many opportunities as Harry Redknapp to fail?

 

Harry Redknapp was given those chances to fail due to previous successes he has shown, John Barnes has not shown any real aptitude in management regard. If he was good enough he'll get back to the top, if not he won't.

 

There aren't enough black coaches in the game currently, and that is the real issue here. From a statistical perspective if you have a smaller pot you will naturally have less top quality picks from it. That is were football needs to look, why aren't there more black players going for their badges ?

[Saint in Paradise]

The Rooney Rule appears to work quite well in the U.S. but only because there are a lot of

very qualified Black people. I am sure that it would also work in the U.K. but only when there

are finally a lot of qualified Black people to choose from.

 

 

 

Turkish etc,

 

Your using logic to debate issues such as this with PC mad, huggy fluffy lefties is a waste of time.

They deliberately choose to be seen to be as dim as a Toc-H lamp.

 

 

Toc H was a charity, similar to the Salvation Army. It set up various troop facilities in WW1. If these were

near the front line, then the outside lamp was very dim for safety reasons. Hence the saying.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Rooney rule is a pile of pony . Define "black" , surely there are various shades of colour . What about Asians , or maybe chicks , or gays , why don't we ensure every vacancy in football is opened up to everyone .

 

At the end of the day football clubs would find an excuse to hire The Yorkshire Ripper if he was available and a great manager . They're certainly not going to say , we'll employ , racists , biters , ****ers, drink drivers , murderers , and complete and utter tosspots because they're the best at te job, but we draw the line at A black manager . Barnes is a shiete manager , end of. That's why he didn't get another job . He only got the Celtic job on the back of his playing career , so to start moaning about " opportunity " is a bit much .

[whelk]

Think many past black managers haven't had the gravitas of an impressive manager, Not a colour thing, it is like Irvine and Ramsey,. Good coaches and no doubt nice people but the lead man is a tough job and you need presence.. Did anyone think Terry Connor would succeed at Wolves? I sure didnt but pretty sure (and hope)it wasn't because I saw him as black

There is something in subliminal judgement though and as a white bloke I will be never fully qualified to appreciate the unfairness (perceived or otherwise)

The likes of Sol Campbell does nothing to help the cause either.

[Batman]

to be honest, the skin colour of managers around now never really registered until now...I saw what I thought was a good/bad manager. NOT skin colour..........!!!