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Top 4 chance now gone? Europa Thoughts?

Saint Charlie

By Saint Charlie
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suewhistle

suewhistle

Posted
Posted

Thanks for all the work The9: a disturbingly large number of teams I've never heard of, and I'm not including the Welsh and Irish ones (or Italian :) ) ones..

Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted
No chance of either San Marino or Gibraltar sides getting through to play us I reckon.

 

Israel would be brilliant, apart from the short notice making it so tough to do.

 

I thought there was already a San Marino side in round 3?

The9

The9

Posted
Posted
So half those sides drop into our EL play off draw (if we get through our 3rd round qualifier)?

 

We'd still be seeded above the majority of those teams that are likely to lose I reckon.

 

It's a tricky thing to work out because just looking at coefficients doesn't give a true reflection of standard - easily verified by looking at Celtic's coefficient compared to Saints.

 

About all that's certain is that fifteen Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round losers will drop into the Europa League Play-Off Round (in which there will be 22 matches) and that upsets in the CL 3Q are bad for us, whilst in the EL they are good for us (as long as Saints aren't upset!).

The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)
I thought there was already a San Marino side in round 3?

 

San Marino are 52nd out of the 54 UEFA nations. They have 2 representatives (League runner up and Cup winner) in the Europa League, both in the 1st Qualifying Round.

 

FWIW They are "AC Juvenes/Dogana" and "La Fiorita".

 

Third qualifying round

(58 teams)

5 domestic cup winners from associations 13–17

9 domestic league third-placed teams from associations 7–15

5 domestic league fourth-placed teams from associations 5–9

3 domestic league fifth-placed teams from associations 4–6 (League Cup winners for France)

3 domestic league sixth-placed teams from associations 1–3 (League Cup winners for England)

33 winners from second qualifying round

 

And just because this is never simple, "sixth-place team from associations 1-3 (League Cup winners for England)" actually ends up being 7th placed Saints, because both League Cup and FA Cup winners are already in the Champions League, so 2 league qualification places became available based on league position instead.

Edited by The9
Removed MLG attitude
buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
No chance of either San Marino or Gibraltar sides getting through to play us I reckon.

 

Israel would be brilliant, apart from the short notice making it so tough to do.

 

It could happen. Gibraltar have beaten some of the best clubs in the land before....

The9

The9

Posted
Posted
It could happen. Gibraltar have beaten some of the best clubs in the land before....

 

I do like that "we will win the JPT" comment from the Skate in 2012. Not yet you haven't.

 

Any excuse to shoehorn it in here, but that's actually their national team, and not the might of College Europa (aptly named, maybe they should call themselves "University Champions" instead).

Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

Posted
Posted
Europa League prize money.

 

First qualifying round: €120,000 (£86,000).

 

Second qualifying round: €130,000 (£93,000) .

 

Third qualifying round: €140,000 (£103,000).

 

Play-off round elimination: €150,000 (£108,000).

 

Base fee for group stage: €1,300,000 (£934,000).

 

Group match victory: €200,000 (£144,000).

 

. .

 

Group match draw: €100,000 (£72,000).

 

Group winners: €400,000 (£288,000).

 

Group runners-up: €200,000 (£144,000).

 

Round of 32: €200,000 (£144,000).

 

Round of 16: €350,000 (£252,000).

 

Quarter-finals: €450,000 (£323,000).

 

Semi-finals: €1,000,000 (£718,000).

 

Losing finalist: €2,500,000 (£1.8m) Winners: €5,000,000 (£3.6m)

 

Not a very lucrative competition, but I suppose if we sell tickets for home games at £20 a pop that's about £600k a game before operating costs.

 

Can't see our participation in the competition meaning we spend more money this summer, though it makes us a more attractive proposition for players.

shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
Not a very lucrative competition, but I suppose if we sell tickets for home games at £20 a pop that's about £600k a game before operating costs.

 

Can't see our participation in the competition meaning we spend more money this summer, though it makes us a more attractive proposition for players.

 

Any idea how much the tv rights are worth?

Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

Posted
Posted
Any idea how much the tv rights are worth?

 

Reasonably sure that the TV rights are wrapped into the prize money. The only thing I'm not sure about is when the BT rights kick in - if it is just for the league stage or if they can also show qualifying games. If there are no TV rights for the qualifiers, I *think* Saints can sell to anyone interested (someone may know better though!).

benjii

benjii

Posted
Posted
Not a very lucrative competition, but I suppose if we sell tickets for home games at £20 a pop that's about £600k a game before operating costs.

 

Can't see our participation in the competition meaning we spend more money this summer, though it makes us a more attractive proposition for players.

 

If I've understood your post correctly..... let's say we get knocked out in the "round of 32" (perfectly realistic, I would say, if a tad pessimistic), so we progress through our group in second winning two matches, drawing two and losing two.

 

That makes us:

 

£934,000 (base fee for group) +

£144,000 x 2 (group match wins) +

£72,000 x 2 (group match draws) +

£144,000 (group runner up) +

£144,000 (round of 32 defeat)

 

= £1,654,000

 

Not mega money but still useful. And that is just the prize money from UEFA, right? Some of that will be offset with travel costs etc but presumably more will also be added on top with match-day revenue and additional commercial sales. Are TV payments included in those figures or, more likely I would've thought, they are on top so we would get some more ££ from that as well?

 

We should make at least a couple of million with the prospect of more if we manage to do better. Pays a reasonable player's wages for a year!

Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

Posted
Posted
If I've understood your post correctly..... let's say we get knocked out in the "round of 32" (perfectly realistic, I would say, if a tad pessimistic), so we progress through our group in second winning two matches, drawing two and losing two.

 

That makes us:

 

£934,000 (base fee for group) +

£144,000 x 2 (group match wins) +

£72,000 x 2 (group match draws) +

£144,000 (group runner up) +

£144,000 (round of 32 defeat)

 

= £1,654,000

 

Not mega money but still useful. And that is just the prize money from UEFA, right? Some of that will be offset with travel costs etc but presumably more will also be added on top with match-day revenue and additional commercial sales. Are TV payments included in those figures or, more likely I would've thought, they are on top so we would get some more ££ from that as well?

 

We should make at least a couple of million with the prospect of more if we manage to do better. Pays a reasonable player's wages for a year!

 

I've presumed the prize money includes the TV money - all TV money is paid to UEFA and they incorporate it into the prize money unless I've misinterpreted something. But match-day revenue, commercial revenue, and ticket revenue is all Saints' on top of that (of course, there are operational costs that will take a lot off that). If anything, participation in the Europa League for the club brings a lot of benefits that we could turn into money in time (raising our profile, attracting better players etc.) but in terms of direct money for playing in it I don't think it makes a significant impact to us at all.

 

Here are a list of teams in the Europa League this season:

 

fo1u35.png

Donatello

Donatello

Posted
Posted
I've presumed the prize money includes the TV money - all TV money is paid to UEFA and they incorporate it into the prize money unless I've misinterpreted something. But match-day revenue' date=' commercial revenue, and ticket revenue is all Saints' on top of that (of course, there are operational costs that will take a lot off that). If anything, participation in the Europa League for the club brings a lot of benefits that we could turn into money in time (raising our profile, attracting better players etc.) but in terms of direct money for playing in it I don't think it makes a significant impact to us at all.[/quote']

 

Prize money does *not* include TV market/market pool money :thumbup:

Donatello

Donatello

Posted
Posted (edited)
If I've understood your post correctly..... let's say we get knocked out in the "round of 32" (perfectly realistic, I would say, if a tad pessimistic), so we progress through our group in second winning two matches, drawing two and losing two.

 

That makes us:

 

£934,000 (base fee for group) +

£144,000 x 2 (group match wins) +

£72,000 x 2 (group match draws) +

£144,000 (group runner up) +

£144,000 (round of 32 defeat)

 

= £1,654,000

 

Not mega money but still useful. And that is just the prize money from UEFA, right? Some of that will be offset with travel costs etc but presumably more will also be added on top with match-day revenue and additional commercial sales. Are TV payments included in those figures or, more likely I would've thought, they are on top so we would get some more ££ from that as well?

 

We should make at least a couple of million with the prospect of more if we manage to do better. Pays a reasonable player's wages for a year!

 

For comparison,

 

Tottenham (last 16) - £4.25m total.

Swansea (last 32) - £2.88m total.

Wigan (group) - £2.74m total.

 

(13/14 season)

 

Figures exclude gate receipts/other match day revenue. Furthermore, figures are expected to increase for the 15/16 season :)

Edited by Donatello
Marsdinho

Marsdinho

Posted
Posted
People wouldn't click the link, nor be bothered to interpret it as The9 has for us - for which I thank him/her for, again.

 

That's the trouble with society these days, no one is prepared to put the effort in themselves, just want everything handed to them on a plate. ;)

Donatello

Donatello

Posted
Posted (edited)
Have you got a link to how the tv money is split/calculated?

 

I've links for the resulting split. Here, sir - http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Finance/02/11/95/44/2119544_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

To be honest, I'm having difficulty understanding how it's calculated because there's an overall pool of tv revenue which is then apportioned (proportionately) based on the national television markets. Problem being, I haven't been able to find any information on what the English market has been worth per season. That being said, you can work out that the shared value for English teams in the group stage was £4.51m the year before last (as shown by link).

Edited by Donatello
Donatello

Donatello

Posted
Posted
That's the trouble with society these days, no one is prepared to put the effort in themselves, just want everything handed to them on a plate. ;)

 

I don't disagree :p But sharing information is a resource all the same :thumbup:

Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted
Isn't that for Premier LEague games? I can't see anything about Europa League?

 

Sorry I misunderstood the original question. Comparing the two chart, however, we can see how much more significant premier league money is.

Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted
I've links for the resulting split. Here, sir - http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Finance/02/11/95/44/2119544_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

To be honest, I'm having difficulty understanding how it's calculated because there's an overall pool of tv revenue which is then apportioned (proportionately) based on the national television markets. Problem being, I haven't been able to find any information on what the English market has been worth per season. That being said, you can work out that the shared value for English teams in the group stage was £4.51m the year before last (as shown by link).

Cheers.
Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted
Sorry I misunderstood the original question. Comparing the two chart, however, we can see how much more significant premier league money is.
Relative to the number of games, the Europa League still looks decent though.
The9

The9

Posted
Posted
People wouldn't click the link, nor be bothered to interpret it as The9 has for us - for which I thank him/her for, again.

 

Cheers.

The9

The9

Posted
Posted
Relative to the number of games, the Europa League still looks decent though.

 

Additional income and some wage headroom, as well as a selling point for potential recruits.

shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
Relative to the number of games, the Europa League still looks decent though.

 

Yep, though to think that finishing 6th would have saved us four extra games.

Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
If I've understood your post correctly..... let's say we get knocked out in the "round of 32" (perfectly realistic, I would say, if a tad pessimistic), so we progress through our group in second winning two matches, drawing two and losing two.

 

That makes us:

 

£934,000 (base fee for group) +

£144,000 x 2 (group match wins) +

£72,000 x 2 (group match draws) +

£144,000 (group runner up) +

£144,000 (round of 32 defeat)

 

= £1,654,000

 

Not mega money but still useful. And that is just the prize money from UEFA, right? Some of that will be offset with travel costs etc but presumably more will also be added on top with match-day revenue and additional commercial sales. Are TV payments included in those figures or, more likely I would've thought, they are on top so we would get some more ££ from that as well?

 

We should make at least a couple of million with the prospect of more if we manage to do better. Pays a reasonable player's wages for a year!

 

Which season are those figures for?

JRM

JRM

Posted
Posted

When Hull were knocked out in the play off last year by Lokeren of Belgium any idea which team was seeded?

USA SaintsFan

USA SaintsFan

Posted
Posted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_UEFA_Europa_League

 

We are certain to be seeded. 58 teams contest the 3rd qualifying round, so I assume the top 29 teams will be seeded. Out of the 25 teams entering the round directly, our coefficient of 16.078 is ranked 12th. Out of all the team entering in previous rounds that could go through to the 3rd qualifying round, only 3 teams have higher coefficients than us. This means the lowest ranking we could possibly get in the 3rd qualifying round is 15th, and even if that happened we would still be seeded.

JRM

JRM

Posted
Posted
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_UEFA_Europa_League

 

We are certain to be seeded. 58 teams contest the 3rd qualifying round, so I assume the top 29 teams will be seeded. Out of the 25 teams entering the round directly, our coefficient of 16.078 is ranked 12th. Out of all the team entering in previous rounds that could go through to the 3rd qualifying round, only 3 teams have higher coefficients than us. This means the lowest ranking we could possibly get in the 3rd qualifying round is 15th, and even if that happened we would still be seeded.

 

Yes we've established seeding in 3rd qualifying round is a certainty, it is the play off round where it becomes less clear so interesting to see Hull were seeded last year at that stage.

 

Would love to play Atletico Bilbao but not until the group stages at the earliest, they were excellent a couple of seasons ago knocking out Man Utd. Lots of shared history between the cities, the football kits but also alot of refugees came from Bilbao to Southampton during the Spanish civil war

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Yes we've established seeding in 3rd qualifying round is a certainty, it is the play off round where it becomes less clear so interesting to see Hull were seeded last year at that stage.

 

I predict several more panicked threads about our seeding before July.

 

After all, we had at least seventeen separate threads panicking about the FA Cup runners up thing even though that was another certainty.

Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted
I predict several more panicked threads about our seeding before July.

 

After all, we had at least seventeen separate threads panicking about the FA Cup runners up thing even though that was another certainty.

 

I think Steve is planning on leaving a stickie at the top of the thread with all relevant europa info in it, so hopefully that'll cut the panicked threads right down.

 

I'm getting more and more excited about travelling abroad to watch the Saints, but simultaneously more and more nervous about not getting the time off work needed.

Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted
Yes we've established seeding in 3rd qualifying round is a certainty, it is the play off round where it becomes less clear so interesting to see Hull were seeded last year at that stage.

 

Would love to play Atletico Bilbao but not until the group stages at the earliest, they were excellent a couple of seasons ago knocking out Man Utd. Lots of shared history between the cities, the football kits but also alot of refugees came from Bilbao to Southampton during the Spanish civil war

Looking at previous year's and taking into consideration the status of the English league, I think we'll be seeded in the play-off game. Looks a good 90% chance of a properly long-trek based on last year's groupings as well.
The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)
Very clear link with all the seedings and coefficients for last year's competition. Our coefficient is slightly lower than Hull's last year but it will be enough to be seeded through the playoffs. Should we qualify for the group stages, we'll almost certainly be in pot 3 (of 4).

 

http://www.footballseeding.com/european-cups/europa-league-14-15/

 

There are a completely different number of teams in the PlayOff round this year compared to last and it's speculation to assume how many of which clubs will get through and drop in from CL to affect it. All that we can say accurately is that an upset result (based on coefficient) in the CL 3Q is bad for us (will drop higher coefficient teams into EL PO), and an upset in the EL is good for us (more lower coefficient teams remaining).

 

We'll be lucky to be seeded in the play-off round, and there's no guarantee they'll even use the same pot process.

 

One thing Steve's article did mention that I hadn't realised, is that even though the 3rd Qualifying Round draw is before the 2nd Qualifying Round is complete, there will be unseeded teams in the 3Q Round who got there directly (Jablonec [CZE], Larnaca [CYP], Hapoel Kiryat Shmona [iSR], Istanbul Basaksehir [TUR], Targu Mures [ROM] and Altach [AUT] looking like being those teams at the moment). So if we drew those we'd know our opponent on the day of the draw, July 17th, rather than the day of the 2nd Qualifying Round 2nd leg (July 23rd).

Edited by The9

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