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Toby

washsaint

By washsaint
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St Chalet

St Chalet

Posted
Posted
For what it's worth, here is my take on things now. I can't imagine it is anything particularly new to anyone, but I just thought it worthwhile to get it all down in one post anyway.

 

 

 

Atlético have reneged on the agreement (which is sound, and proper - as confirmed by BBC et al), but appear that they are going to be complicit to forcing through Toby's move to Tottenham. As far as Toby is concerned, I believe that he genuinely holds a lot of fondness for Saints and would gladly sign here, had it worked that way. However, Saints clearly feel that they've been played here, and aren't entirely happy to just roll over and chuck Madrid yet more money.

 

Toby appears to be at the stage of completing the medical and doing the contract, and signing with Spurs in London sometime this week. If that becomes increasingly protracted, then maybe he is holding out for Saints after all. I don't have any bad blood towards Toby, or for that matter, Tottenham. They would have been just as unaware of the clause in the agreement as the rest of the nation until it was thrown into the spotlight by Saints.

 

There is of course a chance that Saints could strike a deal that is the same, or better, than Spurs' offer to both the player and the club, but it's fair to say that club relations are pretty much at breaking point between Southampton and Atlético Madrid. Of course, you have to ask the question of whether they'd be willing to go into business with Saints if we could make them a better offer, when things already seem to have progressed fairly rapidly. You also have to question whether Les Reed and the higher powers that be at Saints really want to get down this route if they believe they've acted ethically and with correct morals.

 

Toby wanted a move to a Premier League club, and he wanted it to be sorted so that he could actually have a good pre-season this year. I don't think he is overly concerned as to which of the two clubs really went for him, as both had their respective plus-points. With Spurs, the Belgian connections and the London lifestyle and potential for a new stadium and regular European football. With Saints, Toby had a squad he knew, a place he had been living for a year and a chance to reunite with Koeman.

 

As I see it, it looks like Madrid are going to do the deal with Spurs and end up in the courtroom with Saints.

 

Our anger, frustration and ire should be directly at Atlético, and not Toby Alderweireld, or even Tottenham.

 

 

 

*IMO

 

Ethics and morals will play no part in our decision making. We won't walk away player because we've been badly treated. This is a commercial discussion and will come down to what contracts and the rules say, not whether Athleti are acting like dicks.

 

Fwiw I think this is 50/50 and depending how strong our case will depend how much extra we throw at it to get it over the line quickly.

 

1)The distinct lack of any Spurs ITK on the subject is deafening. 2) they could field a team of centre backs and have to offload 3)having seen the documentary yesterday I was really impressed with Ross and Les' approach to it all and trust they'll get a good deal or buy someone else comparable.

St Chalet

St Chalet

Posted
Posted
This has overtures of the John Obi Mikel transfer from Lyn Oslo to Chelsea via Man Utd.

 

In the end the player said he wanted to sign for Chelsea who, almost 12 months after the saga started, paid £4m to Lyn Oslo (the stated original transfer fee) and £12m to Man Utd.

 

If Toby wants to sign for us, we'll get him, and probably for the £6.8m. If he wants to sign for Spurs they will probably have to pay the £6.8m to AM, and the balance to us, plus we get £1.5m from AM. Or some such. AM would be better off selling to us.

 

This this and this.

 

IF our clause is enforceable Spurs won't be able to register him.

Saint Charlie

Saint Charlie

Posted
Posted
There is absolutely no way our head scout will have any idea of the ins and outs of players contracts.

 

He is the Head of Player Recruitment so of course he would.

 

Watch The March. Wilson present during all negotiations. It is that person's job to know it all.

hutch

hutch

Posted
Posted
No I haven't seen it.

 

But like all football transfers, there has to be an agreement between the buying club and both the selling club + player before a transfer can happen. No deal will ever be "pay us £x and we'll just transfer the registration to you as the player needs to agree a contract of employment with said new club.

 

For example, Messi has a buy-out clause of over £200m. Let's say Saints meet this clause, we don't automatically get Messi - we need to agree a deal with him. If Messi doesn't want to come he's not our player.

 

What I'm trying to say is:

1) do we know Saints have actually met the agreed amount? We know there has been a bid but no idea if we have met it as far as I am aware. (Stand to be corrected if someone can provide evidence).

 

2) even if we have met the clause, as above, Toby needs to agree a deal with us. My gut feeling is that he is holding out for another move, despite what he quoted at the end of last season.

I'm just guessing here, but as you are the only person out of the thousands of posts, tweets, retweets, likes and other random internet stuff, to say this:

 

The contract stated that if we bid the agreed fee for TA it would be accepted

 

maybe, like me, he is wondering how you are the only person that knows this.

Shance

Shance

Posted
Posted
He is the Head of Player Recruitment so of course he would.

 

Watch The March. Wilson present during all negotiations. It is that person's job to know it all.

 

tbh I thought he just scouted players.

hutch

hutch

Posted
Posted
He is the Head of Player Recruitment so of course he would.

 

Watch The March. Wilson present during all negotiations. It is that person's job to know it all.

Just a quick question, Charlie. Do you think the club PR video releases are true unedited "fly-on-the-wall" stuff, and we have clandestine CCTV cameras running during contract negotiations? Or do you think they are carefully scripted and edited?

Saint Charlie

Saint Charlie

Posted
Posted
Just a quick question, Charlie. Do you think the club PR video releases are true unedited "fly-on-the-wall" stuff, and we have clandestine CCTV cameras running during contract negotiations? Or do you think they are carefully scripted and edited?

 

Carefully scripted and edited. But the role of the Head of Recruitment clearly involves being present during negotiations.

 

If there were certain clauses in the Juanmi deal, Wilson would know of them, so no reason Mitchell would have been any different re our deal with Atletico for Toby. It was his job to know!

Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

Posted
Posted
@HLNinEngeland: No medical as yet. Atlético meanwhile claim the loan with Saints has expired and that the clause isn't valid. (see: AS). #THFC

 

The problem is that in that case why didn't Toby fly to England yesterday for his medical etc. with Spurs. There is clearly come concern somewhere which is holding it up.

 

I can't see us getting him really, but if we can't get him we may as well disrupt Spurs' plans and seek even more money than we were previously entitled to.

Saint Charlie

Saint Charlie

Posted
Posted
The problem is that in that case why didn't Toby fly to England yesterday for his medical etc. with Spurs. There is clearly come concern somewhere which is holding it up.

 

I can't see us getting him really, but if we can't get him we may as well disrupt Spurs' plans and seek even more money than we were previously entitled to.

 

Yep. Also from RK's comments yesterday he has clearly been in touch with Toby recently and would know of his intentions. Maybe Toby said he would be keen to stay, maybe he said actually he has had a great offer from Spurs, in which case for us it is just a case of reclaiming as much as we can.

 

Nobody knows his thoughts, which ultimately are key.

supersonic

supersonic

Posted
Posted (edited)
I'm just guessing here, but as you are the only person out of the thousands of posts, tweets, retweets, likes and other random internet stuff, to say this:

 

 

 

maybe, like me, he is wondering how you are the only person that knows this.

 

 

It's common sense. It's been widely reported we had an agreement in the deal over the permanent signing of TA. However, football, as in most walks of life, follows contract law. Even if we meet the agreed value, we don't automatically get TA.

 

There needs to be an agreement between the 3 parties involved. Player registration cannot simply transfer from one club to another.

 

As quoted: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/02/southampton-sign-sadio-man-toby-alderweireld

Edited by supersonic
Saint86

Saint86

Posted
Posted

FWIW The daily Fail have locked comments on this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3150824/Tottenham-remain-runners-land-Toby-Alderweireld-11-5million.html#comments

 

Pretty unusual for them to stop people commenting on a non controversial sports article after 48posts....

 

Me thinks he isn't going to spuds and the tottenham supporting journo has got some egg all over his face.

 

It all comes down to the fact that AM have no choice but to legally accept saints offer of £6.8m. They can stall all they want, but ultimately they can't change the contract they've signed. The club will certainly be doing everything to stop tottenham registering the player in england whilst this is unresolved.

 

In addition, there is no credible Tottenham ITK to say he has been to the ground, had a medical or actually wants to be there / agreed a contract.

 

Where as we have a manager saying he's been in contact with him this summer and the fact that we all know Toby and his wife like it in Southampton.

 

Fairly sure he'll come to saints if the legal side of this is upheld. But will probably run and run a bit.

 

Looking forward to spuds reactions if we do nab him lol. They're a club going nowhere with a stadium to finance and a massive wage bill to cut. They've got hardly any money left to invest in the squad in relative terms and will be eclipsed by us or someone like us in the near future.

rallyboy

rallyboy

Posted
Posted

Are Madrid getting their legal advice off Google?

Perhaps Spurs are innocent parties here who are being sold something by people who don't technically own it.

Jimmy_D

Jimmy_D

Posted
Posted
@HLNinEngeland: No medical as yet. Atlético meanwhile claim the loan with Saints has expired and that the clause isn't valid. (see: AS). #THFC

 

If that's the case, then it seems we tried to buy Toby, Madrid informed us they would pay the cancellation fee, and then didn't bother paying it, and are now saying the loan has expired so we can't buy him?

 

No wonder we're kicking off about it.

Ulrich van Gobbel

Ulrich van Gobbel

Posted
Posted

Football journo, Ben Fairthorne - @BFairthorne - has just tweeted:

 

"Saints can take legal action against Atletico, but I can confirm Alderweireld now had Spurs medical, and that's where he will be joining."

 

Also tweeted last night: "From the minute Levy landed in Madrid last week, Alderweireld made it clear Spurs were the only club he wanted to sign for."

 

I really don't like this guy...

angelman

angelman

Posted
Posted
If that's the case, then it seems we tried to buy Toby, Madrid informed us they would pay the cancellation fee, and then didn't bother paying it, and are now saying the loan has expired so we can't buy him?

 

No wonder we're kicking off about it.

 

LOL (I think that's the best thing to do at this time) - looks like AM have shafted us good and proper. Anyone for Virgil van Dijk?

Ulrich van Gobbel

Ulrich van Gobbel

Posted
Posted
In fact you seem to dislike what he says, the guy you probably don't even know.

 

Relax WC.. I was being tongue in cheek. I'm sure Ben is positively charming.

 

The tweet about Toby was more the point of my post.

COMEONYOUREDS

COMEONYOUREDS

Posted
Posted
Football journo, Ben Fairthorne - @BFairthorne - has just tweeted:

 

"Saints can take legal action against Atletico, but I can confirm Alderweireld now had Spurs medical, and that's where he will be joining."

 

Also tweeted last night: "From the minute Levy landed in Madrid last week, Alderweireld made it clear Spurs were the only club he wanted to sign for."

 

I really don't like this guy...

 

Thought Levy was in Ibiza?

St Chalet

St Chalet

Posted
Posted

That is the same Ben Fairthorne that said we'd accepted Man U bid for Morgan on 28th June.

 

I'll believe the Belgian journos and Koeman on those two matters.

Jimmy_D

Jimmy_D

Posted
Posted

He was also reporting that Schneiderlin was already a done deal, also that Begovic was a done deal to Chelsea already.

 

My guess is he takes a punt on a few news stories he thinks will happen and tries to make it look like he has inside info.

Ulrich van Gobbel

Ulrich van Gobbel

Posted
Posted
That is the same Ben Fairthorne that said we'd accepted Man U bid for Morgan on 28th June.

 

I'll believe the Belgian journos and Koeman on those two matters.

 

Agreed.. Also, someone posted yesterday about a Spurs ITK who is insisting that Spurs are not signing TA. Never a dull moment in a Saints transfer window..

OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted

It would be galling if we not only lost out on TA but also the compensation. CFO leaving the club MAY have had something to do with it.

Golden Balls

Golden Balls

Posted
Posted

I really can't see him signing for us and the best we can hope for is compo.

 

However if we do get compensation it should be whatever spurs pay AM. Had they stuck to the contract they signed he'd be our player so effectively buying him from us.

Ivan Katalinic's 'tache

Ivan Katalinic's 'tache

Posted
Posted
Ben Fairthorne ‏@BFairthorne 9m9 minutes ago

Saints can takes legal action against Atletico, but I can confirm Alderweireld now had Spurs medical, and that's where he will be joining.

 

Thought the Belgian journalist who broke the story of Toby joining us last year said no medicals done or planned, last night? Unless we are entering a new era of clandestine medicals? Funny if the one taking the medical was actually the other chap Spurs are said to want from AM?

Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
I really can't see him signing for us and the best we can hope for is compo.

 

However if we do get compensation it should be whatever spurs pay AM. Had they stuck to the contract they signed he'd be our player so effectively buying him from us.

 

Presuming we transferred the totality of the agreed purchase price to them on the day that was previously agreed upon. Perhaps we did that, who knows. I think it's commonly accepted in law that the transfer of any property is not complete until the total price has been paid.

Lets B Avenue

Lets B Avenue

Posted
Posted
Don't worry about that Ben Fairthorne. Hated by loads of fans on twitter, awfully inaccurate.

 

Can someone here who is on twitter, put out a tweet that Ben Fairthorne is believed to be wanted by Operation Yewtree.

 

Probably as accurate as half his guff.

Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
The standard are reporting that the deal is done. TA has medical today and Saints will receive a share of the transfer fee to ward off any legal issues....

 

So we didn't match their price then....

DT

DT

Posted
Posted

All over. I wish toby the best of luck and do not wish him any really bad injuries whatsoever. No sir.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

Posted
Posted

If the 'share of the fee' is the £1.5m we were always owed then it feels like we've got nothing for kicking up a fuss. If it is more I suppose we have something out of it. But then only 24hrs ago Koeman said he felt like Toby wanted to join us. Club / Koeman have had the wool pulled over their eyes if this is true...

Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
If the 'share of the fee' is the £1.5m we were always owed then it feels like we've got nothing for kicking up a fuss. If it is more I suppose we have something out of it. But then only 24hrs ago Koeman said he felt like Toby wanted to join us. Club / Koeman have had the wool pulled over their eyes if this is true...

 

Or the fans, I don't know why everyone seems to want to take whatever Koeman says as gospel...he's a football manager.

Golden Balls

Golden Balls

Posted
Posted
Why would we?

 

You could argue by not doing so we've lost out on the player. Yes we had an agreement with AM but by the looks of it, it didn't matter. TA is clearly worth more than 11.5m

Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
Why would we?

 

Because we wanted to buy the player ? Relying on goodwill and outdated agreements isn't a recipe for getting what you want, not in football; If we wanted the player we should have paid the asking price because it was still a great deal. After deducting the presumed 2 million € we would still have got Toby for around 10 million £ which would have been a great signing on the basis of his last year's contribution. Football transfers dealing isn't the Women's Institute bring and buy.

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