Saint IQ Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 They're a more prestigious club with a better team, they're in London and they pay more. I don't think any potential signing is going to be put off by the fact that they're selling Benjamin Stambouli. A better team, Nah. More prestigious? who cares as long as you can pay me more than them, right? So it seems London is the only thing going for them at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Spurs were the Jammiest team of all last season there goal difference says it all, they might well play better this year and finish 7th! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 It's not baffling, it's completely understandable for as long as they pay bigger wages and have more likelihood of winning trophies as a result. Of course if we want to stop players leaving we have to pay bigger wages, and we can't do that without Champions League money and a massively increased global presence, which I'm not sure we're likely to achieve in the immediate future. In reference to Toby and Morgan it is if they are level headed people, they can see the team is at Spurs' level on the pitch, they can see we produce world class players from our academy, the can see our recruitment process is top notch whereas Tottenhams is terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 (edited) In reference to Toby and Morgan it is if they are level headed people, they can see the team is at Spurs' level on the pitch, they can see we produce world class players from our academy, the can see our recruitment process is top notch whereas Tottenhams is terrible. Money and trophies. If we can find a breed of footballer who absolutely doesn't care about maximising their income for the limited career they have, and values loyalty incredibly highly once he's signed for Saints but not beforehand, well that would be just super. If we get success it MIGHT persuade someone to stay. Failing that, vague hopes of players wanting to play regularly and that being something we can offer are as good as it gets. Even the kids we bring through want to leave because they know they're being underpaid by virtue of us having negotiated their first contract when they were nobody. Lets not delude ourselves that players at Europa League standard clubs give the remotest crap about the "recruitment process" the second after it has delivered them to (for instance) our club. Once they're here, that process just becomes the thing that replaces them. Why would they even want it to be good? Even when Rooney showed a vague interest a few years back and claimed Man U needed to invest in the squad it was only to give him a reason for potentially leaving a club that was in a Champions League Final near the time. Football is a meritocracy, the top players get the most money from the most wealthy clubs with very few exceptions. The best we can do is get ourselves into that discussion and try and make marginal gains year on year until Europe is as expected for us as it is the other 6 sides we shared the top 7 with last season. Edited 22 June, 2015 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 A better team, Nah. More prestigious? who cares as long as you can pay me more than them, right? So it seems London is the only thing going for them at the moment. 4 points clear of us, so objectively the better team, yes, not nah. Regardless of whether any one cares about prestige they are more prestigious, and if they only care about money then they will pay more than us too. Plus London as you say. So that'll be four things, not one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis17 Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Jetro Willems Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Ronald prepared to break our transfer record to get Toby. 18m being quoted. Mirror/BBC Gossip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Exactly how many goals and assists did he get last season? I'd expect more from a truly top class player. for a player who spends most of his time near the goal area, I'm amazed he doesn't put more away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I love the way the usual suspects always descend into a debate about which is the bigger club. The is no definition so it's a purely subjective view. Spurs, Liverpool and saints are all big clubs but no one is ever going to prove (other than in their own mind) which of those is bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingwing Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Ronald prepared to break our transfer record to get Toby. 18m being quoted. Mirror/BBC Gossip. Bargain price for him still given the price of Ross McCormack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 He does get injured a lot...makes 18m seem a bit high to me. Get nearer 15 and I'll be fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Ronald prepared to break our transfer record to get Toby. 18m being quoted. Mirror/BBC Gossip. That is an awful lot of money. At the same time, he is rather good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 (edited) I love the way the usual suspects always descend into a debate about which is the bigger club. The is no definition so it's a purely subjective view. Spurs, Liverpool and saints are all big clubs but no one is ever going to prove (other than in their own mind) which of those is bigger. There are loads of definitions and loads of measures and combinations of measures. And those measures are objective, empirical, quantifiable, fact-based. Guess what they all have in common? Edited 22 June, 2015 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambosa75 Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I love the way the usual suspects always descend into a debate about which is the bigger club. The is no definition so it's a purely subjective view. Spurs, Liverpool and saints are all big clubs but no one is ever going to prove (other than in their own mind) which of those is bigger. FWIW its Liverpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I love the way the usual suspects always descend into a debate about which is the bigger club. The is no definition so it's a purely subjective view. Spurs, Liverpool and saints are all big clubs but no one is ever going to prove (other than in their own mind) which of those is bigger. I love the way the usual suspects always descend into a debate about which is the bigger club. They always use "evidence" like Liverpool are in decline, Saints are on the up, they only finished x number of points above us/x number of places above us, Rodgers is a tosser and Koeman is a nice fella ass well as the caveat that there is no definiton as to what makes a big club so we can cling onto that when all else fails. Anyone who says it aint so is clearly a troll/not a saints fan/WUM and should stop runing this forum for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I have just posted "Premier League Salaries According to Football Manager 2015" on my blog. The information is at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/ http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I have just posted "Premier League Salaries According to Football Manager 2015" on my blog. The information is at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/ http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/ is this what it has come to? Analysing the guesses from the likes of MLG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 He does get injured a lot...makes 18m seem a bit high to me. Get nearer 15 and I'll be fine with that. Agree its a lot, but not worth losing him for £2/3m difference. He is extremely good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 is this what it has come to? Analysing the guesses from the likes of MLG? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I have just posted "Premier League Salaries According to Football Manager 2015" on my blog. The information is at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/ http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/ Whilst i admire the relentless nature of your blogging and your enthusaism to your new found passion is impressive, indeed laudable. I cant help but feel that perhaps your blogs might be slightly more credible to the wider audience if they weren't based on a computer game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 4 points clear of us, so objectively the better team, yes, not nah. Regardless of whether any one cares about prestige they are more prestigious, and if they only care about money then they will pay more than us too. Plus London as you say. So that'll be four things, not one. Therefore using the same argument, objectively we were the better team than Spurs, Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal for much of the season, because we were above them in the table. I believe that we can argue reasonably that we have a better first team than Spurs player for player, and a better defence and midfield than theirs. I agree with Saint IQ when he says that Spurs were the jammiest team in the division, because Kane earned them 26 points alone, so their position had more to do with an individual performance than a team one. A Rodriguez style injury ealry in the season and they're mid-table. His impact on their season is akin to Bale's before him and Suarez at Liverpool. Presumably you would also argue that objectively Spurs has the better manager than us because they finished higher up the table than us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 so, what are we saying here. We ARE better than spurs and liverpool? no one in the country, other than maybe arsenal fans and of course, some on here would agree with that. does than mean swansea are better than us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Whilst i admire the relentless nature of your blogging and your enthusaism to your new found passion is impressive, indeed laudable. I cant help but feel that perhaps your blogs might be slightly more credible to the wider audience if they weren't based on a computer game. It depends on the meaning of the word "credible." As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, profession football clubs use the FM database in scouting. Thus, they find it credible to some extent. Does it mean that it is perfectly accurate? Of course not. However, I am unaware of another source I could use that provides this information to an outside like myself. Moreover, given the nature of bonuses and such, even the clubs themselves do not know their exact salary structure until the fiscal year is over. On the other hand, you are right. Some people will automatically discount information from a game. I can live with that. Frankly, I would be more worried about FM sending me a letter from a lawyer telling me to stop using their information in my blog. However, I assume they like publicity and don't care so long as I don't attempt to monetize my blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 so, what are we saying here. We ARE better than spurs and liverpool? no one in the country, other than maybe arsenal fans and of course, some on here would agree with that. does than mean swansea are better than us? I think we were the unluckiest team in the league last year. We should have finished above both Spurs and Liverpool and the goal difference tells it’s own story IMO. Factor in spending the season without Rodriguez and losing Forster as well for the run-in and I do think last season we had a better all round team than Spurs at least. As has been said, they were a one man team with Kane digging them out of a hole time and time again. Go through the two teams man for man and see how many of their starting 11 would be in your combined team. I’d be surprised if it’s more than 3 or 4. Kane, Eriksen and Lloris. Who else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Bargain price for him still given the price of Ross McCormack Or Mangala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsbignose Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I have been a Saints fan for 40 years and hope I have a fairly decent understanding of where we are compared with Spurs and Liverpool. Counting in our favour are the facilities, the current team (and the associated culture and ethos), Ronald and our ambition and professionalism. That is offset by: our pedigree (although I would suggest that that is less of a factor if you are a current player) but we are far less likely to pay wages that compete with those two, have the ongoing ability to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsbignose Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I have been a Saints fan for 40 years and hope I have a fairly decent understanding of where we are compared with Spurs and Liverpool. Counting in our favour are the facilities, the current team (and the associated culture and ethos), Ronald and our ambition and professionalism. That is offset by: our pedigree (although I would suggest that that is less of a factor if you are a current player) but we are far less likely to pay wages that compete with those two, have the ongoing ability to or indeed, type properly challenge consistently over a long period of time for CL places, for Spurs they have the attraction of being in London; whereas Liverpool's geography is a negative for them and finally, be the stepping stone if you're really good enough, to the likes of Barcelona or Real Madrid. These things matter if have the self belief that says you are going to make it to the very top of the pile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Bargain price for him still given the price of Ross McCormack And Calum Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 so, what are we saying here. We ARE better than spurs and liverpool? no one in the country, other than maybe arsenal fans and of course, some on here would agree with that. does than mean swansea are better than us? Given that both clubs finished above us and we finished above Swansea you could say that for the last season Liverpool and Tottenham were better than us and we were better than Swansea. The bigger club is the same. Which clubs have won more silverware over the years and have a bigger fan base? I started supporting Saints in 1966 and at no time in that period could I say we were a "big" club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Given that both clubs finished above us and we finished above Swansea you could say that for the last season Liverpool and Tottenham were better than us and we were better than Swansea. The bigger club is the same. Which clubs have won more silverware over the years and have a bigger fan base? I started supporting Saints in 1966 and at no time in that period could I say we were a "big" club. I think that we are a bigger club than we were in 1966 I think we are at present very high in the second tier of PL Clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Therefore using the same argument, objectively we were the better team than Spurs, Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal for much of the season, because we were above them in the table. I believe that we can argue reasonably that we have a better first team than Spurs player for player, and a better defence and midfield than theirs. I agree with Saint IQ when he says that Spurs were the jammiest team in the division, because Kane earned them 26 points alone, so their position had more to do with an individual performance than a team one. A Rodriguez style injury ealry in the season and they're mid-table. His impact on their season is akin to Bale's before him and Suarez at Liverpool. Presumably you would also argue that objectively Spurs has the better manager than us because they finished higher up the table than us? I'll stick to my same argument based on empirical evidence and facts. You can blather on about whatever you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Couldn't give a flying f*ck about Spurs or Liverpool. Thought this thread was about Toby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Couldn't give a flying f*ck about Spurs or Liverpool. Thought this thread was about Toby. Indeed, why do people get so pre-occupied by the perceived 'size' of a football club. My Mrs is forever telling me it's not important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austsaint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 And Calum Chambers When you put it like that then 18 million sounds like a snip. Really hope we can sign him but the beating drums of the Spurs interest/imminent bid is quite disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I'll stick to my same argument based on empirical evidence and facts. You can blather on about whatever you like. Well done, Mr Gradgrind. Thats what we need, Fact, Fact, Fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 And Calum Chambers very good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettIvo Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 This debate is tedious. Liverpool and Spurs are bigger clubs by any objective measure you care to use. More importantly, they have a bigger percentage of utter **** fans than we have as well. Not worth getting worked up over. As for Toby I'm hopeful he'll end up here permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErwinK1961 Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 I reckon if it comes down to a straight choice between us and Spurs, then we have every chance of getting this done. Of course Spurs are a bigger club, but by all accounts he seemed to love his time hear and sounded settled and has said he'd like to stay. Up to us to make sure we offer the money Atletico want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 This debate is tedious. Liverpool and Spurs are bigger clubs by any objective measure you care to use Who is suggesting they aren't much bigger clubs than us? Of course they are. Currently i do think we have a better all round team man for man than Spurs though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Who is suggesting they aren't much bigger clubs than us? Of course they are. Currently i do think we have a better all round team man for man than Spurs though despite finishing below them with pretty poor cup runs and no european adventure to our name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Spurs are certainly bigger than us in one department - the pathetic, self important, deluded nature of their fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 despite finishing below them with pretty poor cup runs and no european adventure to our name And without our top scorer for the whole season. Take Kane out of that Spurs team and do you think they'd have finished within 4 points of us? No chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 And without our top scorer for the whole season. Take Kane out of that Spurs team and do you think they'd have finished within 4 points of us? No chance why take kane out? he is part of their side, injuries and dealing with them are part of the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 And without our top scorer for the whole season. Take Kane out of that Spurs team and do you think they'd have finished within 4 points of us? No chance They got lucky with Kane, no two ways about it and the games they should have been well out of that they mananged to turn round in the last few minutes to win 2-1 was really annoying ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 They got lucky with Kane, no two ways about it and the games they should have been well out of that they mananged to turn round in the last few minutes to win 2-1 was really annoying ! lucky in that they developed their own young talent? not just a saints thing that. we got lucky in games too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 4 points clear of us, so objectively the better team, yes, not nah. Regardless of whether any one cares about prestige they are more prestigious, and if they only care about money then they will pay more than us too. Plus London as you say. So that'll be four things, not one. But not really a better a team about the same if not worse, will they pay more than us with the new stadium and all these high earners all on the books at this current time? I doubt they could pay much more than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashby Saint Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 This debate is tedious. Liverpool and Spurs are bigger clubs by any objective measure you care to use. More importantly, they have a bigger percentage of utter **** fans than we have as well. Not worth getting worked up over. As for Toby I'm hopeful he'll end up here permanently. OK. How about pie sales? http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-manchester-united-arsenal-premier-4131517 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Liverpool obviously could. Also I never said we were a bigger club than Spurs or Liverpool I don't no why thats even up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 Money and trophies. If we can find a breed of footballer who absolutely doesn't care about maximising their income for the limited career they have, and values loyalty incredibly highly once he's signed for Saints but not beforehand, well that would be just super. If we get success it MIGHT persuade someone to stay. Failing that, vague hopes of players wanting to play regularly and that being something we can offer are as good as it gets. Even the kids we bring through want to leave because they know they're being underpaid by virtue of us having negotiated their first contract when they were nobody. Lets not delude ourselves that players at Europa League standard clubs give the remotest crap about the "recruitment process" the second after it has delivered them to (for instance) our club. Once they're here, that process just becomes the thing that replaces them. Why would they even want it to be good? Even when Rooney showed a vague interest a few years back and claimed Man U needed to invest in the squad it was only to give him a reason for potentially leaving a club that was in a Champions League Final near the time. Football is a meritocracy, the top players get the most money from the most wealthy clubs with very few exceptions. The best we can do is get ourselves into that discussion and try and make marginal gains year on year until Europe is as expected for us as it is the other 6 sides we shared the top 7 with last season. because it makes the first team and the players around them better than the average premier league club, and I'm sure they want to play with better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 22 June, 2015 Share Posted 22 June, 2015 because it makes the first team and the players around them better than the average premier league club, and I'm sure they want to play with better players. the most reliable and controllable way to achieve that is to move to a team with better players. in toby's case, moving to tottenham would be making them better, while staying here would not improve us. since they finished above us, that could from a certain point of view make them a better bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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