pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 The wondrous EU project continues to state objectives. Jean-Claude Juncker has called for the establishment of an EU army. He reckons it would help the EU to show Moscow that it is serious about defending its values. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary We can laugh at his rationale all we like, particularly the part about EU values. For me though, the establishment of super-state institutions like this are the most worrying thing about the EU, as I believe that they have the potential to get the UK into all kinds of bother it wouldn't normally attract. Also, if these armed forces follow the command structure of other armies, it is likely the executive that'll have power on when, where and who they fight. This'll be the unelected EU executive. Fortunately, this is a step too far for Cameron and co. They've ruled any British contribution to an EU army out for now, but these things have a habit of being knocked back a bit before making their way back onto the agenda. Continent-wide army controlled by unelected foreigners. Is it for EU?
CB Saint Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 Easier to make the Greeks tow the line with an army.
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 Easier to make the Greeks tow the line with an army. That's probably what the Romans thought millennia ago. How far civilised thinking has progressed!
lloydie Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 They can sod off, in a nutshell. Not a UKIP-er by any means but this is a massive step too far.
Lord Duckhunter Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 Coincidence that Cameron is running our armed forces down with cuts ? I don't think so, he's the biggest europhile Tory since Grocer Heath .
Batman Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 An EU army would be an utter farce. Shame the armed forces are going to be cut even more later this year.
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 An EU army would be an utter farce. Shame the armed forces are going to be cut even more later this year. I have no idea why you think the idea of a German-led* army being used as a bulwark against Russia might be a bad idea * Just extrapolating current German EU dominance, somewhat provocatively.
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 (edited) I have no idea why you think the idea of a German-led* army being used as a bulwark against Russia might be a bad idea * Just extrapolating current German EU dominance, somewhat provocatively. The German army is very small compared to the size of their population I think. About 60000 for 85 million population. To be able to lead anything they need to get their ducks in a row first because their army is a bit of a joke. Add a very small navy and an inconsequent air force that haven't been involved in much action at any time in the recent past and you have no reason to suppose that they could lead anything. Edited 9 March, 2015 by Window Cleaner
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 I know I'm one of the few round these parts that actually supports the EU (despite admitting it is in need of some major reforms), I'm hugely against this. Then again, that is to be expected. Unsurprisingly, I'm v anti-war. Just hug it out, y'know?
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 The German army is very small compared to the size of their population I think. About 60000 for 85 million population. To be able to lead anything they need to get their ducks in a row first because their army is a bit of a joke. Add a very small navy and an inconsequent air force that haven't been involved in much action at any time in the recent past and you have no reason to suppose that they could lead anything. The German army was limited to 100,000 men after 1918. Before then, it was arguably the most impressive army the world had ever seen. History shows us that the Germans are capable of re-militarising, if push comes to shove.
buctootim Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 We're better off with NATO which is based around mutual defence than an EU army doing things the UK could disagree with.
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 (edited) The German army was limited to 100,000 men after 1918. Before then, it was arguably the most impressive army the world had ever seen. History shows us that the Germans are capable of re-militarising, if push comes to shove. But just now they are a nation of pacifists, constantly in conflict with NATO. Anything that reminds them of their past is abhorrant to them. Not to mention their demographics, an ageing population with a relatively low proportion of military aged persons. Edited 9 March, 2015 by Window Cleaner
Wes Tender Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 But just now they are a nation of pacifists, constantly in conflict with NATO. Anything that reminds them of their past is abhorrant to them. Not to mention their demographics, an ageing population with a relatively low proportion of military aged persons. I tried to post a video of Jergen the German from Harry Enfield on You Tube, but apparently they are blocked by the Beeb
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 I tried to post a video of Jergen the German from Harry Enfield on You Tube, but apparently they are blocked by the Beeb Here you go http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=202_1205849992
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 But just now they are a nation of pacifists, constantly in conflict with NATO. Anything that reminds them of their past is abhorrant to them. Not to mention their demographics, an ageing population with a relatively low proportion of military aged persons. I recognise that some Germans are very uncomfortable about militarisation given their relatively recent past. It's also worth pointing out that Germany has been leading efforts to try to halt further escalation of conflict in Ukraine. However, it's equally important to recognise that history didn't begin in 1945. While Germany itself is a relatively new entity (I'm speaking of initial formation, not "reunification"), those people have been kicking arse for centuries. Their modern day equivalents know how to graft and at some point, maybe not in our lifetimes, the Germans won't feel stigmatised about having armed forces.
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 I recognise that some Germans are very uncomfortable about militarisation given their relatively recent past. It's also worth pointing out that Germany has been leading efforts to try to halt further escalation of conflict in Ukraine. However, it's equally important to recognise that history didn't begin in 1945. While Germany itself is a relatively new entity (I'm speaking of initial formation, not "reunification"), those people have been kicking arse for centuries. Their modern day equivalents know how to graft and at some point, maybe not in our lifetimes, the Germans won't feel stigmatised about having armed forces. Well whenever they feel like giving us French a hand in combatting the crackpots from spreading all over Africa and beyond let me know and I'll consider your point of view. The French and the English with their armed forces are fighting Europe's battles for them just now. The french and english publics are footing the bills for it whilst the Germans do ferk all and pay ferk all permitting them to have a higher standard of living.
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 Well whenever they feel like giving us French a hand in combatting the crackpots from spreading all over Africa and beyond let me know and I'll consider your point of view. The French and the English with their armed forces are fighting Europe's battles for them just now. The french and english publics are footing the bills for it whilst the Germans do ferk all and pay ferk all permitting them to have a higher standard of living. Funny. Didn't realise anywhere in Europe was at war, or that any European countries had led wars. What are Europe's battles, exactly?
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 (edited) Funny. Didn't realise anywhere in Europe was at war, or that any European countries had led wars. What are Europe's battles, exactly? Well , the French are active in Mali and the Central African Republic, our Navy is stretched to it's limits patrolling oceans along with the American and British counterparts, don't make out that you don't know this because you do. Edit...can't say that Edited 9 March, 2015 by Window Cleaner
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 Well , the French are active in Mali and the Central African Republic, our Navy is stretched to it's limits patrolling oceans along with the American and British counterparts, don't make out that you don't know this because you do. Edit...can't say that So basically, fúcking about in parts of the world they've no business being in? Doesn't sound like much of a "defence" brief.
Batman Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 So basically, fúcking about in parts of the world they've no business being in? Doesn't sound like much of a "defence" brief. I would suggest that what the RN is doing right now is everything to do with the UK
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 I would suggest that what the RN is doing right now is everything to do with the UK Still in DD or did you finish your time and move on?
Batman Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 Still in DD or did you finish your time and move on? Still in. The RN is turning into a coastal force at the mo
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 Still in. The RN is turning into a coastal force at the mo ASM ?
Window Cleaner Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 Work in the above water world these days As do most Anti Submarine Units.... Know there are increased patrols from Iceland to the Falklands just now, looking for Boris I suppose..who knows, perhaps the Germans are giving us a hand ,saw one of theirs off the Brittany coast the other day.
pap Posted 9 March, 2015 Author Posted 9 March, 2015 Still in. The RN is turning into a coastal force at the mo Genuinely interested. What do you think the RN's mission should be? I understand its importance in our history and holding the glue of the Empire together. I can certainly understand wanting to retain a big navy for historical reasons. I can understand the US wanting to use their Navy to monitor their interests overseas and get why any nation would want to be the pre-eminent power on the waves. What does the UK need?
Batman Posted 9 March, 2015 Posted 9 March, 2015 It has nothing to do with "Empire" for a mission for the current RN. I'm on my Phone and in bed so can't be arsed to give the reply this deserves. Will do tomorrow
pap Posted 10 March, 2015 Author Posted 10 March, 2015 It has nothing to do with "Empire" for a mission for the current RN. I'm on my Phone and in bed so can't be arsed to give the reply this deserves. Will do tomorrow Didn't think that it was about Empire anymore; just acknowledging the historical role the RN played.
moonraker Posted 10 March, 2015 Posted 10 March, 2015 Genuinely interested. What do you think the RN's mission should be? I understand its importance in our history and holding the glue of the Empire together. I can certainly understand wanting to retain a big navy for historical reasons. I can understand the US wanting to use their Navy to monitor their interests overseas and get why any nation would want to be the pre-eminent power on the waves. What does the UK need? The Royal Navy has a great deal of significance in todays very uncertain world. Being an Island we do not have recourse to overland supply over 90% of our imports and export travel by sea, that is our economic lifeline and requires secure seas, piracy has a direct impact on our economy. We still have a number of overseas territories to which we have a legal duty for defence and security, these territories are either to small to be effective independent states and or want to remain with the British family. Add to these our international commitments via NATO, the UN and other less high profile agreements and the need to patrol our home waters a well funded, professionally manned, highly capable Royal Navy is as relevant today as it has always been. Currently we are asking far more of it than we are prepared to fund, and the fact that the men and women of the RN are delivering the outputs they are with insufficient and inadequate ships and to little manpower all whilst being undermined by politicians (all of them) is frankly a national disgrace.
Batman Posted 10 March, 2015 Posted 10 March, 2015 The Royal Navy has a great deal of significance in todays very uncertain world. Being an Island we do not have recourse to overland supply over 90% of our imports and export travel by sea, that is our economic lifeline and requires secure seas, piracy has a direct impact on our economy. We still have a number of overseas territories to which we have a legal duty for defence and security, these territories are either to small to be effective independent states and or want to remain with the British family. Add to these our international commitments via NATO, the UN and other less high profile agreements and the need to patrol our home waters a well funded, professionally manned, highly capable Royal Navy is as relevant today as it has always been. Currently we are asking far more of it than we are prepared to fund, and the fact that the men and women of the RN are delivering the outputs they are with insufficient and inadequate ships and to little manpower all whilst being undermined by politicians (all of them) is frankly a national disgrace. The bang for the buck so to speak that the RN provide is absolutely incredible.
pap Posted 11 March, 2015 Author Posted 11 March, 2015 Excellent article by Peter Hitchens. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9459602/its-nato-thats-empire-building-not-putin/ Also worth checking out is the audio debate, available on the page.
hypochondriac Posted 11 March, 2015 Posted 11 March, 2015 Excellent article by Peter Hitchens. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9459602/its-nato-thats-empire-building-not-putin/ Also worth checking out is the audio debate, available on the page. I wrote to hitchens once. He is an utter buffoon so I won't be reading the article, sorry.
pap Posted 11 March, 2015 Author Posted 11 March, 2015 I wrote to hitchens once. He is an utter buffoon so I won't be reading the article, sorry. Thanks hypo. That's great. The rest of the forum can move on now.
shurlock Posted 11 March, 2015 Posted 11 March, 2015 I wrote to hitchens once. He is an utter buffoon so I won't be reading the article, sorry. I had you and pete down as peas in a pod - inexplicably exasperated and angry most of the time.
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