Net migration

[Orange]

I didn't say a word of that. But carry on.

 

Well you said we don't get 'help' from countries like Canada so it's unfair to compare immigration from them as like for like.

 

Not sure what you were saying then.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Well you said we don't get 'help' from countries like Canada so it's unfair to compare immigration from them as like for like.

 

Not sure what you were saying then.

 

If you weren't sure, you could have y'know asked? Instead of strawmanning and putting arguments in mouth.

 

But yes, it is unfair. The scenario's aren't the same. If you read my other posts you'd see I'd say the EU isn't without problems and does need major reform. That doesn't negate the fact the comparing EU and Non-EU migration in that manner is false equivalence.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I'm Canadian (was born there to English parents and left when around 3 years old) so am dual nationality.

 

Do I have a right to live here? Interesting to know, that's all.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I'm certainly not going to squeeze up just so that somebody else can stroll in and take the benefits from those who have worked for it.

I take it you're not the type to give away your last Malteser?

 

Anyway, you're completely missing the point that immigration benefits us all, so there's no squeezing up necessary:

 

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26447244

Edited 1 March, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer

[hypochondriac]

I take it you're not the type to give away your last Malteser?

 

Anyway, you're completely missing the point that immigration benefits us all, so there's no squeezing up necessary:

 

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26447244

 

Uncontrolled immigration clearly doesn't benefit us in the long term.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Uncontrolled immigration clearly doesn't benefit us in the long term.

You'll have to enlighten me because I don't think it's clear at all

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I'm Canadian (was born there to English parents and left when around 3 years old) so am dual nationality.

 

Do I have a right to live here? Interesting to know, that's all.

English is your first language so you're OK

[Whitey Grandad]

I take it you're not the type to give away your last Malteser?

 

Anyway, you're completely missing the point that immigration benefits us all, so there's no squeezing up necessary:

 

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26447244

 

It clearly doesn't benefit us.

(I don't eat Maltesers and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone else to give me theirs)

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Great arguments guys, thought provoking as always

[hypochondriac]

You'll have to enlighten me because I don't think it's clear at all

 

How would totally uncontrolled immigration be a benefit? Take that to its extreme and the NHS would have to be abolished, there would be nowhere for many people to live etc etc. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that it's a good thing unless you want to tell me otherwise?

[bridge too far]

How would totally uncontrolled immigration be a benefit? Take that to its extreme and the NHS would have to be abolished, there would be nowhere for many people to live etc etc. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that it's a good thing unless you want to tell me otherwise?

 

Given the explosion in the number of elderly people now and in the future, we have to find a way of funding their pensions and healthcare. Apart from needing a huge number of healthcare workers in the future (we're already under-resourced), we need taxes and NI contributions from a larger, younger population. It's fair to say that immigrants contribute significantly in terms of healthcare provision.

 

There is plenty of room in our country to house an increasing population. It just suits the government to sit on their hands and only introduce measures that will mainly benefit developers and landlords rather than bite the bullet and underwrite the provision of more housing. Part of the housing problem starts with very wealthy people (from Russia, Hong Kong, China etc.) buying top of the range property as investment. This inevitably has a trickle-down effect on the housing market firstly in London and the South East and then more generally spreading outwards to the rest of the country.

 

It has been shown time and time again that immigrants contribute more to our country than they take out in benefits (of all kinds including health, education and housing).

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Migration is beneficial as long as it is controlled.

 

I think we can all agree with this.

[hypochondriac]

Given the explosion in the number of elderly people now and in the future, we have to find a way of funding their pensions and healthcare. Apart from needing a huge number of healthcare workers in the future (we're already under-resourced), we need taxes and NI contributions from a larger, younger population. It's fair to say that immigrants contribute significantly in terms of healthcare provision.

 

There is plenty of room in our country to house an increasing population. It just suits the government to sit on their hands and only introduce measures that will mainly benefit developers and landlords rather than bite the bullet and underwrite the provision of more housing. Part of the housing problem starts with very wealthy people (from Russia, Hong Kong, China etc.) buying top of the range property as investment. This inevitably has a trickle-down effect on the housing market firstly in London and the South East and then more generally spreading outwards to the rest of the country.

 

It has been shown time and time again that immigrants contribute more to our country than they take out in benefits (of all kinds including health, education and housing).

 

Absolutely none of your point addressed anything I said about uncontrolled immigration. I haven't argued against immigration at all, in fact I support immigration, I just expect it to be better controlled.

Edited 1 March, 2015 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Migration is beneficial as long as it is controlled.

 

I think we can all agree with this.

 

Yep. Seems ex lion Tamer has a different point of view though for some reason.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

How would totally uncontrolled immigration be a benefit? Take that to its extreme and the NHS would have to be abolished, there would be nowhere for many people to live etc etc. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that it's a good thing unless you want to tell me otherwise?

 

More immigrants paying taxes means it's actually easier to pay for the NHS. Especially as they are normally working age, so can help pay for all our oldies.

 

There's plenty of space for more houses, we just need to build them. Will stimulate the building trade and help the economy

[hypochondriac]

More immigrants paying taxes means it's actually easier to pay for the NHS. Especially as they are normally working age, so can help pay for all our oldies.

 

There's plenty of space for more houses, we just need to build them. Will stimulate the building trade and help the economy

 

Think you are missing the point here. Not sure if it's wilful or not. Let's just say hypothetically we have space for another thirty million people and then we remove all controls on immigration and fifty million decide to come here. There comes a point where population growth becomes unsustainable, mostly because there is a finite amount of space. Now we may disagree on where the cutoff point should be, but surely you can understand this very clear point?

[Danny R]

It's pretty hard to argue with the post above. In effect we don't control our borders anymore and that's part of this Faustian pact we have made with the EU. There is just no disputing it - we have exchanged a large part of our national sovereignty in order to promote our trade with Europe.

 

Immigration is as old as time, but this modern mass immigration phenomenon (not all of which is connected with our EU membership of course) has both adverse and positive results on society. We surely are now a more diverse and outward looking people, but we may never recapture the sense of national unity that served us so well in the past. Some on here might do well to remember that we were all immigrants once if you look back far enough.

 

It is perhaps the sudden nature, as well as the sheer scale, of the current wave of immigration that is the root cause to the widespread discontent we now see around us - and I'm no more immune to that feeling of unease than many of my fellow Brits are. This old country of ours has perhaps not seen the like of it since Anglo-Saxon times. On a more positive note, the new immigrants I have personally met have all been decent hard working young people determined to make a better future for themselves. I can't blame them for that because, put in their situation, I might do exactly the same. I should also add that my nephew has married a (lovely) girl of Pakistani descent and their baby daughter will grow up in a new England we of the older generation could hardly recognise - like it or not this is what modern Britain is like now.

 

During the next parliament the British people may get the chance to decide whether they want to try and slow this mass immigration process or not. Along with last years Scottish Independence referendum, that may well be the most important political decision any of us makes in our lifetimes.

 

Great post, such a tonic to the faux anger from both sides on what is a complex issue.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Think you are missing the point here. Not sure if it's wilful or not. Let's just say hypothetically we have space for another thirty million people and then we remove all controls on immigration and fifty million decide to come here. There comes a point where population growth becomes unsustainable, mostly because there is a finite amount of space. Now we may disagree on where the cutoff point should be, but surely you can understand this very clear point?

Fair enough I thought you were saying that we have uncontrolled immigration at the moment. Clearly we are not seeing those levels at present so the system is OK

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I think there could be an issue with having too many immigrants too quickly, but I don't see any evidence that we're anywhere close to that

[hypochondriac]

Fair enough I thought you were saying that we have uncontrolled immigration at the moment. Clearly we are not seeing those levels at present so the system is OK

 

Not sure why you would think that as that clearly wasn't what I said. I'm not a supporter of the current system but that is a separate issue. I would prefer to have a quota system where people are welcomed in happily if they have the skills we need and can contribute to the country. Yes that may include a small percentage for more menial tasks as well.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Not sure why you would think that as that clearly wasn't what I said. I'm not a supporter of the current system but that is a separate issue. I would prefer to have a quota system where people are welcomed in happily if they have the skills we need and can contribute to the country. Yes that may include a small percentage for more menial tasks as well.

 

The same as you have for going to Canada or Australia. Effectively you have to prove that you will benefit their economy either by providing skills that are in short supply, or you have a lot of money that will effectively bolster the economy through extra spending.

 

I agree with Hypo here.

[buctootim]

I remember hundreds of thousands of brits going abroad to work in Germany during the deep 1980s recession here when there was mass unemployment and hopelessness. Everyone thought how wonderful the EU was then. No we temporarily have a lower problem here and other Europeans want to come to the UK suddenly it's all a terrible thing.

[hypochondriac]

The same as you have for going to Canada or Australia. Effectively you have to prove that you will benefit their economy either by providing skills that are in short supply, or you have a lot of money that will effectively bolster the economy through extra spending.

 

I agree with Hypo here.

 

Yep it's a common sense approach and I'm not sure how anyone could disagree. I don't care who supported that stance, be it ukip, the greens lib dems etc I would support them.

 

There is a lot I dislike about ukip such as blaming immigrants for all the countries ills but I wholeheartedly agree with them on this issue.

Edited 1 March, 2015 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

I remember hundreds of thousands of brits going abroad to work in Germany during the deep 1980s recession here when there was mass unemployment and hopelessness. Everyone thought how wonderful the EU was then. No we temporarily have a lower problem here and other Europeans want to come to the UK suddenly it's all a terrible thing.

 

Suddenly! 1980 was 35 years ago, a lot has changed since then.

[hypochondriac]

I remember hundreds of thousands of brits going abroad to work in Germany during the deep 1980s recession here when there was mass unemployment and hopelessness. Everyone thought how wonderful the EU was then. No we temporarily have a lower problem here and other Europeans want to come to the UK suddenly it's all a terrible thing.

 

I agree. A much fairer system is for each country to look after their own elderly etc.

[Whitey Grandad]

More immigrants paying taxes means it's actually easier to pay for the NHS. Especially as they are normally working age, so can help pay for all our oldies.

 

There's plenty of space for more houses, we just need to build them. Will stimulate the building trade and help the economy

 

Immigrants get old and sick too and their children need schooling. What you are proposing is one giant Ponzi scheme.

 

What nobody ever mentions is the capital cost of providing all this new housing. Then there is all the necessary infrastructure to go with it - roads, electricity, gas, water supply, sewerage, it goes on and on. Somebody has to pay for all this and if it hasn't been brought into the country with the immigrants, as is the case with countries such as New Zealand, then these costs have to come out of the existing economy. Then some smart Alec will remind us of our commitments to reducing the amount of CO2 we produce.

[buctootim]

Suddenly! 1980 was 35 years ago, a lot has changed since then.

 

Okay bad choice of words! I agree with some of the points made, but for me the advantages of the EU far outweigh the disadvantages. The whole world is federalising into trade and political blocs -g ASEAN, NAFTA, Eurasian Economic Community etc. there aint no turning the clock back.

Edited 1 March, 2015 by buctootim

[hypochondriac]

Okay bad choice of words! I agree with some of the points made, but for me the advantages of the EU far outweigh the disadvantages. The whole world is federalising into trade and political blocs -g ASEAN, NAFTA, Eurasian Economic Community etc. there aint no turning the clock back.

 

Absolutely no need for political union. I fundamentally disagree with you there. Sadly those at the top will do what they did to the Scottish if we ever do get a referendum and use scaremongering tactics to frighten people. When we don't vote to leave, the government which say that gives them the green light for ever closer political union.

Edited 1 March, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Whitey Grandad]

Okay bad choice of words! I agree with some of the points made, but for me the advantages of the EU far outweigh the disadvantages. The whole world is federalising into trade and political blocs -g ASEAN, NAFTA, Eurasian Economic Community etc. there aint no turning the clock back.

 

Absolutely no need for political union. I fundamentally disagree with you there. Sadly those at the top will do what they did to the Scottish if we ever do get a referendum and use scaremongering tactics to frighten people. When we don't vote to leave, the government which say that gives them the green light for ever closer political union.

 

Actually, I'm with both of you on this. Economic union, yes please, political union? Probably not.

[hypochondriac]

Actually, I'm with both of you on this. Economic union, yes please, political union? Probably not.

 

I agree and no reason that some of the more useful bits of the EU such as the ease of getting around Europe cannot be kept in place.

[Orange]

Given the explosion in the number of elderly people now and in the future, we have to find a way of funding their pensions and healthcare. Apart from needing a huge number of healthcare workers in the future (we're already under-resourced), we need taxes and NI contributions from a larger, younger population. It's fair to say that immigrants contribute significantly in terms of healthcare provision.

 

There is plenty of room in our country to house an increasing population. It just suits the government to sit on their hands and only introduce measures that will mainly benefit developers and landlords rather than bite the bullet and underwrite the provision of more housing. Part of the housing problem starts with very wealthy people (from Russia, Hong Kong, China etc.) buying top of the range property as investment. This inevitably has a trickle-down effect on the housing market firstly in London and the South East and then more generally spreading outwards to the rest of the country.

 

It has been shown time and time again that immigrants contribute more to our country than they take out in benefits (of all kinds including health, education and housing).

 

Is it going to create a country where our standard of living, and those of future generations, will be improved though? Yes we could 'fit in' hundreds of thousands of extra people each year, but at what cost? More congestion, more demand for housing, more concreting over our countryside, harder to access services, more community division, and more soulless urban sprawl and Lego land towns. I just don't get why people see this as such a desirable future for the UK.

 

We can still fill gaps in the NHS etc or whatever else, not drawing up the drawbridge but having a careful and controlled policy. How can a government plan infrastructure/services etc if they have no rough idea of numbers that will be added to the population each year?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Not sure why you would think that as that clearly wasn't what I said. I'm not a supporter of the current system but that is a separate issue. I would prefer to have a quota system where people are welcomed in happily if they have the skills we need and can contribute to the country. Yes that may include a small percentage for more menial tasks as well.

So basically you want masses of extra red tape for businesses that send staff to work in Europe, and extra layers of government bureaucracy to police it, and all in order to solve a problem which the evidence shows doesn't exist

[Ludwig]

and we have a biter

 

jesus, it is a message board ffs

do you really think I give a **** what charities (or what ever) you give to

 

What a thorough cockmuffin. You really are a simpleton.

[sadoldgit]

I don't buy the idea that there is plenty of room in this country. The roads and the infrastructure cannot cope with what we have already. Yes there are lots of lovely green fields but they are needed to provide food. You cant just pave over and build on the whole of the UK (although this Government is doing its best).

 

I have absolutely no problem with controlled immigration but it does have to be controlled. Someone also needs to take a look at what space we do have and agree a new policy over the Green Belt. We currently do not have enough schools, hospitals, public sector workers etc to give a decent service to those who currently live here. Something needs to change.

[Lord Duckhunter]

More immigrants paying taxes means it's actually easier to pay for the NHS. Especially as they are normally working age, so can help pay for all our oldies.

 

There's plenty of space for more houses, we just need to build them. Will stimulate the building trade and help the economy

 

And what about the countries they leave behind

 

**** em , let's get the brightest and the best over here paying taxes to look after our elderly, and boost our economy and **** their own people.

 

Why train thousands of doctors and midwives when other countries can train them for us. We'll just nick them once their home countries have spent money training them. Hell , its no it like India or Poland need skilled medical professionals.

 

Let's have thousands of our own youngsters out of work and get young immigrants to pay the taxes that pay their benefits.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

And what about the countries they leave behind

 

**** em , let's get the brightest and the best over here paying taxes to look after our elderly, and boost our economy and **** their own people.

 

Why train thousands of doctors and midwives when other countries can train them for us. We'll just nick them once their home countries have spent money training them. Hell , its no it like India or Poland need skilled medical professionals.

 

Let's have thousands of our own youngsters out of work and get young immigrants to pay the taxes that pay their benefits.

 

:lol:

 

Ah yes, of course. Having moved on from the "we're not the racists, everyone else is" UKIP line. We now see the, "well actually, we want to close to borders for the good of the other countries".

[Whitey Grandad]

And what about the countries they leave behind

 

**** em , let's get the brightest and the best over here paying taxes to look after our elderly, and boost our economy and **** their own people.

 

Why train thousands of doctors and midwives when other countries can train them for us. We'll just nick them once their home countries have spent money training them. Hell , its no it like India or Poland need skilled medical professionals.

 

Let's have thousands of our own youngsters out of work and get young immigrants to pay the taxes that pay their benefits.

 

You forgot to mention that we're busy charging our own students £9000 a year to get trained. Why bother when we can import them cheaper?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You forgot to mention that we're busy charging our own students £9000 a year to get trained. Why bother when we can import them cheaper?

 

We have had a significant lack of medical personnel for years, it's not the £9k per year that's suddenly putting people off being doctor's.

 

If we weren't able to import our medical staff the NHS would have gone ******** up a long time ago.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You forgot to mention that we're busy charging our own students £9000 a year to get trained. Why bother when we can import them cheaper?

 

You mean overseas students that pay higher fees and help fund the shortfall that domestic students create?

 

Even the much heralded Australia with their immigration system is desperate for overseas students.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Cant edit for some reason, fund is probably the wrong word there.

 

More like plug or fill.

 

Universities would be far worse off without overseas students.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Cant edit for some reason, fund is probably the wrong word there.

 

More like plug or fill.

 

Universities would be far worse off without overseas students.

 

Course they would, education costs a **** load of money.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Cant edit for some reason, fund is probably the wrong word there.

 

More like plug or fill.

 

Universities would be far worse off without overseas students.

 

How's your leg btw? Everything go alright?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Course they would, education costs a **** load of money.

 

No doubt about that. Overseas students are very good business.

 

Universities and 'business' are desperate to keep them too.

[solentstars]

We have had a significant lack of medical personnel for years, it's not the £9k per year that's suddenly putting people off being doctor's.

 

If we weren't able to import our medical staff the NHS would have gone ******** up a long time ago.

so true..but under farage the new pin up boy for the old thatcherite wing of the tory right who defected his long term plan we will solve that problem.. when we follow the American system , great for big business and a few back handers for farage and his ilk from his business chums ...£30,000 for a hip operation sir,is that american express or mastercard or we can put you on one of our long term credit plans 29.9 % ..lol,

[Lord Duckhunter]

We have had a significant lack of medical personnel for years, it's not the £9k per year that's suddenly putting people off being doctor's.

 

If we weren't able to import our medical staff the NHS would have gone ******** up a long time ago.

 

When you're short staffed the reason is either a lack of training or under paying the staff. Because of immigration there is no need to address either.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

When you're short staffed the reason is either a lack of training or under paying the staff. Because of immigration there is no need to address either.

 

Doctor's aren't underpaid though, certainly not in relative terms.

[Batman]

Doctor's aren't underpaid though, certainly not in relative terms.

as have said before. there are plenty of doctors/Nurses. Many just don't/won't work for the NHS.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

as have said before. there are plenty of doctors/Nurses. Many just don't/won't work for the NHS.

 

Which means their is still an undersupply of British doctors. If demand is higher than supply, whether that be private or NHS, then there is still a lack of supply.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Doctor's aren't underpaid though, certainly not in relative terms.

 

Then there is a problem with training or educating enough Brits to become doctors. However, what's the point in addressing that when we can get them from India, Nigeria, Poland ect ect

[Batman]

Which means their is still an undersupply of British doctors. If demand is higher than supply, whether that be private or NHS, then there is still a lack of supply.

 

The undersupply for the NHS, yes. Private. Not so sure.

As said on another thread. There are a high amount of health care professionals that are colleagues of my missus will not work for the NHS. They chose pretty much their own hours. Many do less than full time hours to get more than full time pay. There are plenty of them too. Just they will not work for the NHS