Net migration

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Can you name 5 species as destructive as humans, or relatively close?

Orcs

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Guys, I find it as disconcerting as anyone but change is a constant. In 50 years time the world will be unrecognisable. It will almost certainly be more crowded, but people will change and adapt. We might think it's not as good as the old days but our kids will have grown up with it so they won't know any different.

 

OK so the south East will be more crowded, but the focal points of our economy will change and expand. Look at New York - it's virtually impossible to get an apartment on manhatten island these days unless you are wealthy, which older generations may see as a shame, but the result is that Brooklyn is the hip place to be. London is going the same way.

 

As others have said, there are far more densely populated countries than the UK and they manage to have a decent infrastructure.

 

That all said, there are huge challenges coming up, mainly from climate change and ageing populations. One of the most interesting predictions is that water shortages will mean the majority of people will have to go vegetarian in 40 years time - I for one won't enjoy that but will just have to embrace it I guess (if I'm still alive)!

 

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2012/aug/26/food-shortages-world-vegetarianism

Edited 27 February, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Bloo71]

This worryingly crowded isle: England is officially Europe's most densely packed major country

England has overtaken the Netherlands and is second only to tiny Malta

Over the next 30 years the gap is expected to widen even more

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530125/This-worryingly-crowded-isle-England-officially-Europes-densely-packed-country.html#ixzz3SzvyILQ1

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

You might need to revise that line that there are far more densely populated countries than England with a fine infrastructure.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It doesn't really matter the rights and wrongs of immigration or whether the uk is too crowded. The simple fact is that it should be for the British people to decide how many people settle here, just as it should be for the German people to decide Germany's immigration policy or the yanks to manage theirs. The establishment have given away that right and therefore it doesn't matter a jot what any British MP, any British voter or any British citizen ( or subjects as I believe we're still defined as) think. There are 26 countries whose citizens have as much right to live in these fair islands as you or me, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It's pretty hard to argue with the post above. In effect we don't control our borders anymore and that's part of this Faustian pact we have made with the EU. There is just no disputing it - we have exchanged a large part of our national sovereignty in order to promote our trade with Europe.

 

Immigration is as old as time, but this modern mass immigration phenomenon (not all of which is connected with our EU membership of course) has both adverse and positive results on society. We surely are now a more diverse and outward looking people, but we may never recapture the sense of national unity that served us so well in the past. Some on here might do well to remember that we were all immigrants once if you look back far enough.

 

It is perhaps the sudden nature, as well as the sheer scale, of the current wave of immigration that is the root cause to the widespread discontent we now see around us - and I'm no more immune to that feeling of unease than many of my fellow Brits are. This old country of ours has perhaps not seen the like of it since Anglo-Saxon times. On a more positive note, the new immigrants I have personally met have all been decent hard working young people determined to make a better future for themselves. I can't blame them for that because, put in their situation, I might do exactly the same. I should also add that my nephew has married a (lovely) girl of Pakistani descent and their baby daughter will grow up in a new England we of the older generation could hardly recognise - like it or not this is what modern Britain is like now.

 

During the next parliament the British people may get the chance to decide whether they want to try and slow this mass immigration process or not. Along with last years Scottish Independence referendum, that may well be the most important political decision any of us makes in our lifetimes.

Edited 28 February, 2015 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Ex Lion Tamer]

It doesn't really matter the rights and wrongs of immigration or whether the uk is too crowded. The simple fact is that it should be for the British people to decide how many people settle here, just as it should be for the German people to decide Germany's immigration policy or the yanks to manage theirs. The establishment have given away that right and therefore it doesn't matter a jot what any British MP, any British voter or any British citizen ( or subjects as I believe we're still defined as) think. There are 26 countries whose citizens have as much right to live in these fair islands as you or me, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it.

You're stuck in the old nation state ideology. The planet belongs to everyone and we don't have a natural right to close off parts of it for ourselves

Edited 28 February, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Whitey Grandad]

You're stuck in the old nation state ideology. The planet belongs to everyone and we don't have a natural right to close off parts of it for ourselves

 

No it doesn't and yes we do.

[Guided Missile]

This worryingly crowded isle: England is officially Europe's most densely packed major country

England has overtaken the Netherlands and is second only to tiny Malta

 

If you allowed every person living in the EU, one square meter of space, you could fit the entire population on the Isle of Wight.

 

I just worked that out....

Edited 1 March, 2015 by Guided Missile
Actually, make that one square yard...

[Kingsland Codger]

These worryingly crowded islands: England is officially Europe's most densely packed major country

England has overtaken the Netherlands and is second only to tiny Malta

Over the next 30 years the gap is expected to widen even more

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530125/This-worryingly-crowded-isle-England-officially-Europes-densely-packed-country.html#ixzz3SzvyILQ1

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

You might need to revise that line that there are far more densely populated countries than England with a fine infrastructure.

 

Changed it for you.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're stuck in the old nation state ideology. The planet belongs to everyone and we don't have a natural right to close off parts of it for ourselves

 

So you think that everybody in the world should have the right to live in the UK?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So you think that everybody in the world should have the right to live in the UK?

 

So you think by accident of birth you are entitled to a better life than someone who happened to be born on a different bit of land?

[Whitey Grandad]

So you think by accident of birth you are entitled to a better life than someone who happened to be born on a different bit of land?

 

Yes indeed, especially if your parents and grandparents had worked hard and made great sacrifices in order to build a better society for you to live in.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Yes indeed, especially if your parents and grandparents had worked hard and made great sacrifices in order to build a better society for you to live in.

 

That's utter crap.

 

That supposes anyone less wealthy is only in that position because they are inherently lazy, or worked less hard. i.e. the parents and grandparents of people in other countries didn't work as hard as your or mine parents or grandparents.

 

But yeah, because we happened to be born on this island (wealthy through a lot of sh!tty actions of our ancestors) and other people weren't so lucky, f*ck em? Right? We got ours.

[Batman]

That's utter crap.

 

That supposes anyone less wealthy is only in that position because they are inherently lazy, or worked less hard. i.e. the parents and grandparents of people in other countries didn't work as hard as your or mine parents or grandparents.

 

But yeah, because we happened to be born on this island (wealthy through a lot of sh!tty actions of our ancestors) and other people weren't so lucky, f*ck em? Right? We got ours.

 

it was that wealth of our disgusting ancestors that created the welfare state and the NHS

vvankers

[Batman]

So you think by accident of birth you are entitled to a better life than someone who happened to be born on a different bit of land?

 

how much of a percentage of your salary do you give to less fortunates in other countries?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

it was that wealth of our disgusting ancestors that created the welfare state and the NHS

vvankers

 

As standard, wonderful insight from our masked hero there.

 

Care to actually add anything?

[Batman]

As standard, wonderful insight from our masked hero there.

 

Care to actually add anything?

 

Just pointing out that those from our past that you seem to despise created a society that you enjoy today.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Just pointing out that those from our past that you seem to despise created a society that you enjoy today.

 

Seem to despise? Because I said some of our ancestors actions, that led to some of our wealth (ya'know slavery, colonisation etc) were sh!tty. Are you really that dense?

 

Can you not comprehend that criticism (pretty mild at that) does not equate to despising something.

 

But no, just standard Batman wailing HYPOCRITE!!!

[Batman]

Seem to despise? Because I said some of our ancestors actions, that led to some of our wealth (ya'know slavery, colonisation etc) were sh!tty. Are you really that dense?

 

Can you not comprehend that criticism (pretty mild at that) does not equate to despising something.

 

But no, just standard Batman wailing HYPOCRITE!!!

 

colonisation was a major factor (rightly or wrongly) that created the immense wealth that enabled this country to devise the welfare state

 

who knows what we would have now had the British Empire not been what it was

Slavery granted. The Empire became even more vast (and the UK even more ridiculously rich) post the abolition of slavery.

 

Just curious to know, given that you feel no one should be more well off so to speak because of the land they come from. How much of your own wealth do you send out to your fellow humans around the world? after all, spread the love, right?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

colonisation was a major factor (rightly or wrongly) that created the immense wealth that enabled this country to devise the welfare state

 

who knows what we would have now had the British Empire not been what it was

Slavery granted. The Empire became even more vast (and the UK even more ridiculously rich) post the abolition of slavery.

Just curious to know, given that you feel no one should be more well off so to speak because of the land they come from. How much of your own wealth do you send out to your fellow humans around the world? after all, spread the love, right?

 

Jesus wept, that really is poor.

 

It's funny, because you almost start off agreeing with me.

 

Anyway, that isn't what I said. I said it's daft saying you were born over there, you can't come here. Everything over here is mine. If I was born in a country with little opportunity, I would probably move somewhere where I can have an opportunity at a better life.

 

When you start getting that myopic, where do you end? I was born in London, should I be mad at people from all over the country coming here? Or my Mum for moving to London from Doncaster, I mean Donnie is a dump not much going on there. She's contributing to the overcrowding, strained public services, high house prices etc. Detracting from indigenous Londoners like myself.

 

As it goes, I do give to several charities. I've also actively helped with charity fundraisers. Not that it really has a great deal of relevance, other than you again trying to scream hypocrite. Utter one trick pony, even after being called on it you still double down on it.

[Batman]

Jesus wept, that really is poor.

 

It's funny, because you almost start off agreeing with me.

 

Anyway, that isn't what I said. I said it's daft saying you were born over there, you can't come here. Everything over here is mine. If I was born in a country with little opportunity, I would probably move somewhere where I can have an opportunity at a better life.

 

When you start getting that myopic, where do you end? I was born in London, should I be mad at people from all over the country coming here? Or my Mum for moving to London from Doncaster, I mean Donnie is a dump not much going on there. She's contributing to the overcrowding, strained public services, high house prices etc. Detracting from indigenous Londoners like myself.

 

As it goes, I do give to several charities. I've also actively helped with charity fundraisers. Not that it really has a great deal of relevance, other than you again trying to scream hypocrite. Utter one trick pony, even after being called on it you still double down on it.

and we have a biter

 

jesus, it is a message board ffs

do you really think I give a **** what charities (or what ever) you give to

[KelvinsRightGlove]

and we have a biter

 

jesus, it is a message board ffs

do you really think I give a **** what charities (or what ever) you give to

 

Congrats.

[bridge too far]

and we have a biter

 

jesus, it is a message board ffs

do you really think I give a **** what charities (or what ever) you give to

 

You asked him the question! And then you have a pop because he answered? Jeez!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You asked him the question! And then you have a pop because he answered? Jeez!

 

HYPOCRITE!!!

[CB Fry]

 

Just curious to know, given that you feel no one should be more well off so to speak because of the land they come from. How much of your own wealth do you send out to your fellow humans around the world? after all, spread the love, right?

 

 

do you really think I give a **** what charities (or what ever) you give to

 

Solid Delldays gold.

[Batman]

You asked him the question! And then you have a pop because he answered? Jeez!

 

HYPOCRITE!!!

 

I was putting the fishing line out and got a nibble.

 

as for this subject, of course proper controls should be put in place on the numbers and quality of those coming. That does not mean NO ONE can come but that should mean that NOT everyone can come.

Kelvin made a point that why shouldn't others who are less fortunate not be able to come here and gain all that goes with it. That is obviously a fair point.

That should be controlled so that what UK-PLC can offer those remains at the top table instead of a race to the bottom (that some believe is/can happen)

 

as for his disdain for our ancestors, again good points raised. I just pointed out that a majority that went before us all created this society that he wishes to be available to all. Maybe not be so quick to slam those from years gone by. Had the evil British Empire NOT existed or in a far lesser form, makes you wonder if we would have the fruits of society we have today. Or even what language that would be in

[Batman]

Solid Delldays gold.

 

in the grand scheme of things, I do not care.

 

I await your cut and paste of your next remark (you do use the same lines for us all on your hit list)

[bridge too far]

HYPOCRITE!!!

 

I was putting the fishing line out and got a nibble.

 

as for this subject, of course proper controls should be put in place on the numbers and quality of those coming. That does not mean NO ONE can come but that should mean that NOT everyone can come.

Kelvin made a point that why shouldn't others who are less fortunate not be able to come here and gain all that goes with it. That is obviously a fair point.

That should be controlled so that what UK-PLC can offer those remains at the top table instead of a race to the bottom (that some believe is/can happen)

 

as for his disdain for our ancestors, again good points raised. I just pointed out that a majority that went before us all created this society that he wishes to be available to all. Maybe not be so quick to slam those from years gone by. Had the evil British Empire NOT existed or in a far lesser form, makes you wonder if we would have the fruits of society we have today. Or even what language that would be in

 

Splendid! Can you not understand that our forebears WENT TO OTHER COUNTRIES to look for a better standard of living (by exploitation as it so happened). Exactly what most immigrants are doing by coming here!

 

Who's the hypocrite now?

[CB Fry]

in the grand scheme of things, I do not care.

 

I await your cut and paste of your next remark (you do use the same lines for us all on your hit list)

Read the thread son. My work is done.

[Batman]

Splendid! Can you not understand that our forebears WENT TO OTHER COUNTRIES to look for a better standard of living (by exploitation as it so happened). Exactly what most immigrants are doing by coming here!

 

Who's the hypocrite now?

 

indeed. we did that by force mostly.

Not so sure I would welcome it if that was replicated here.

 

still does not mean we should not have checks and balances in place to control who comes here.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

indeed. we did that by force mostly.

Not so sure I would welcome it if that was replicated here.

 

still does not mean we should not have checks and balances in place to control who comes here.

 

So you wouldn't like the things we did to be done to us?

 

Does that mean you despise your ancestors who created the society you live in?

[Batman]

So you wouldn't like the things we did to be done to us?

 

Does that mean you despise your ancestors who created the society you live in?

 

Nope. I do not think I would like to have lived in that period of history in any guise.

however, we are where we are. Much of that is thanks to some pretty horrible stuff by todays standards carried out by our great relations

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Nope. I do not think I would like to have lived in that period of history in any guise.

however, we are where we are. Much of that is thanks to some pretty horrible stuff by todays standards carried out by our great relations

 

So p much exactly what I said, that you took issue with.

[Batman]

So p much exactly what I said, that you took issue with.

 

and LIKE I said. I initially made my point in a flippant way for a nibble and have since agreed with parts of what you say.

[bridge too far]

and LIKE I said. I initially made my point in a flippant way for a nibble and have since agreed with parts of what you say.

 

I hope you're looking over your shoulder as you retreat so fast

[Batman]

I hope you're looking over your shoulder as you retreat so fast

 

:smug:

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I hope you're looking over your shoulder as you retreat so fast

 

GUISE!!! It was all like totally a joke.

[Whitey Grandad]

That's utter crap.

 

That supposes anyone less wealthy is only in that position because they are inherently lazy, or worked less hard. i.e. the parents and grandparents of people in other countries didn't work as hard as your or mine parents or grandparents.

 

But yeah, because we happened to be born on this island (wealthy through a lot of sh!tty actions of our ancestors) and other people weren't so lucky, f*ck em? Right? We got ours.

 

What the hell are you drinking?

 

You really haven't got a clue what I was talking about. Infrastructure, both physical and social, didn't just appear out of thin air. It was created and developed by those who went before us and nobody has the right to walk in and take it away from us. I'm certainly not going to squeeze up just so that somebody else can stroll in and take the benefits from those who have worked for it.

[Orange]

What would happen if a city slightly bigger than Southampton decided to move to the UK, all at once? I guess we're about to find out, because in 2013 net migration to the UK was 298,000, higher than when the coalition took office.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/26/net-migration-to-uk-higher-than-when-coalition-took-office

 

In 2012, the figure was 176K, 215K in 2011 and 252K in 2010. We don't have 2014's figures yet. I think that they'll be higher on account of Bulgarian and Romanian accession, but assuming a conservative figure of 200K for 2014, the population has jumped by 1.1 million people in the last five years. It's probably more.

 

One would assume that supporting another million or so people would involve infrastructure spending, but one would equally assume we're not doing much of that during austerity. How do we solve this crisis? Go the UKIP way, or start thinking about what sort of country we're likely to be in 50 years, get the cheque book out and start creating infrastructure for now and beyond?

 

IMO it's a huge mistake for the future of our country the levels of net migration the elites have inflicted on us for the last decade. I was watching the Daily Politics this week and the Labour shadow immigration minister whatever his name is, was trying to compare our immigration policy to Spain/France etc as if it were like for like. The fact he couldn't even recognise the glaringly obvious fact that France, Spain, Germany etc are hugely larger countries than the UK sums Labour up. While mass uncontrolled immigration has been great for Labour, importing votes in by the millions and enjoying their cheap little Thai restaurant in Islington whilst their Polish nanny looks after the kids, but for the normal Brits it's different.

 

We're a small overcrowded country. House prices have been driven up, it's harder to find school places and hospital appointments etc, working class wages have been driven down, and communities have been changed beyond recognition. Yes there are still very undeveloped areas (thankfully), but look at the south east for starters and all the congestion, new housing developments etc. Having spent time in New Zealand it brought home to me the value of space and the positive impact it has on people's standard of living. Why do we want to create an urban sprawl of a country, concreting over every last bit of green space and packing us in like battery hens. We need to make a decision if that's the country we want to create and pass on to the next generation in 30 years, because at current rates that's where we're heading.

 

The UKIP way is to have a points based system where we control quality and quantity, treating a Canadian for example, with equal worth to a Romanian. Sounds like common sense to me. Clegg in particular likes to deride people as wanting to 'draw up the drawbridge', when in fact people just rightly want to feel like we have it under control. What was really comical, dishonest, and contemptuous to the British public, was Cameron promising to get it down to tens of thousands, whilst he had absolutely no control over his 'pledge', for the obvious reason he has no control over EU migration. At best he was being thick and naiive, at worst he was being a dishonest snake.

[Orange]

You're stuck in the old nation state ideology. The planet belongs to everyone and we don't have a natural right to close off parts of it for ourselves

 

Very noble of you.

 

You and Natille Bennett would get on like a house on fire.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

What the hell are you drinking?

 

You really haven't got a clue what I was talking about. Infrastructure, both physical and social, didn't just appear out of thin air. It was created and developed by those who went before us and nobody has the right to walk in and take it away from us. I'm certainly not going to squeeze up just so that somebody else can stroll in and take the benefits from those who have worked for it.

 

Nobody is going to walk in and take anything away from us.

 

Again, I got mine so f everyone else. My relatives had a better life than yours, so I should have better life than yours.

 

Nevermind much of the infrastructure, both physical and social has been built on immigrants, like the entire history of Britain.

[hypochondriac]

If everyone accepts (as they should) that there must be some controls in place in some form, then my only question is why should some random from Romania get priority to come here over someone from Canada and Australia? Before we even talk about the skills and jobs needed etc, surely we should be looking to prioritise access from those countries that share a similar culture and language as us such as Canadians and Australians etc?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

If everyone accepts (as they should) that there must be some controls in place in some form, then my only question is why should some random from Romania get priority to come here over someone from Canada and Australia? Before we even talk about the skills and jobs needed etc, surely we should be looking to prioritise access from those countries that share a similar culture and language as us such as Canadians and Australians etc?

 

I've posted this before, but with things as they are, it's false equivalence to compare people coming from outside the EU to those moving within the EU.

 

Like or loathe the EU, there are benefits to being within it. We do still get some pay outs for certain things, regional development fund for example has had a very beneficial impact on certain parts of the country. Countries such as Canada, Australia etc do not help with these things.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I've posted this before, but with things as they are, it's false equivalence to compare people coming from outside the EU to those moving within the EU.

 

Like or loathe the EU, there are benefits to being within it. We do still get some pay outs for certain things, regional development fund for example has had a very beneficial impact on certain parts of the country. Countries such as Canada, Australia etc do not help with these things.

 

That's not to say the EU is perfect, or that we 100% benefit in every single way.

[hypochondriac]

I've posted this before, but with things as they are, it's false equivalence to compare people coming from outside the EU to those moving within the EU.

 

Like or loathe the EU, there are benefits to being within it. We do still get some pay outs for certain things, regional development fund for example has had a very beneficial impact on certain parts of the country. Countries such as Canada, Australia etc do not help with these things.

 

So at what point do you say enough is enough to the EU? We signed up to a trading agreement and have had all the other rubbish foisted on us. The EU have reminded me of fifa thinking they can do whatever they like and that they hold all the cards. Imo that is unacceptable.

[Orange]

I've posted this before, but with things as they are, it's false equivalence to compare people coming from outside the EU to those moving within the EU.

 

Like or loathe the EU, there are benefits to being within it. We do still get some pay outs for certain things, regional development fund for example has had a very beneficial impact on certain parts of the country. Countries such as Canada, Australia etc do not help with these things.

 

So we give huge amounts of taxpayers money away, a foreign bureaucrat then gives us a little back in regional aid, and we're meant to be very grateful for that? Why can't we just decide for ourselves on a national level?

 

Fact is, by immigration figures you'd think we have a very lax system. But the govt are actually making non EU people who have very legitimate reasons to settle here like marriage (have several friends in this situation), a nightmare because they're desperately trying to compensate for the swathes of unskilled labour coming in from struggling European countries. How can anyone see that as a good system?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So at what point do you say enough is enough to the EU? We signed up to a trading agreement and have had all the other rubbish foisted on us. The EU have reminded me of fifa thinking they can do whatever they like and that they hold all the cards. Imo that is unacceptable.

 

I can understand disillusionment with the EU, absolutely. Whilst I am a supporter of it in theory, and would certainly not like us to leave, I do think it is dire need of massive reform. Serious discussions need to be had about it's future and what form that will take. With that, I'm totally with you.

 

As I said, I'm just trying to highlight some of the reasons the "Why Romania, not Canada" (paraphrased) argument isn't exactly flawless itself.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So we give huge amounts of taxpayers money away, a foreign bureaucrat then gives us a little back in regional aid, and we're meant to be very grateful for that? Why can't we just decide for ourselves on a national level?

 

Fact is, by immigration figures you'd think we have a very lax system. But the govt are actually making non EU people who have very legitimate reasons to settle here like marriage (have several friends in this situation), a nightmare because they're desperately trying to compensate for the swathes of unskilled labour coming in from struggling European countries. How can anyone see that as a good system?

 

Yes, that is totally what I said. All of it.

[Orange]

Yes, that is totally what I said. All of it.

 

You implied that we 'owe it to the EU' to have open doors, because they give us such a helping hand deciding where UK taxpayers money should be spent etc.

 

What I was saying is the consequence of having open doors to the EU means we have to treat people from other parts of the world (often countries we arguably have a lot more of a cultural/historical bond with), like sh*t.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You implied that we 'owe it to the EU' to have open doors, because they give us such a helping hand deciding where UK taxpayers money should be spent etc.

 

What I was saying is the consequence of having open doors to the EU means we have to treat people from other parts of the world (often countries we arguably have a lot more of a cultural/historical bond with), like sh*t.

 

I didn't say a word of that. But carry on.