Chelsea racists

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Do you know what pappy, when I first saw first saw the incident, which was at work with the sound off. I didn't think, 'that looks like a racist incident to me' I thought, 'why are they stopping that guy getting on the train?' I didn't even notice he was black. It was only when I was told to think it was a racist incident by the outraged majority I decided to have a look for myself ask a few questions and try and make my mind up rather than follow the crowd.

 

If the media say it's racist, it's racist Turks. And if we disagree it also makes us racist and want to emulate Himmler et al. Luckily my gestapo uniform is back from the dry cleaners so I can go out and push some people off public transport all day tomorrow.

[pap]

Do you know what pappy, when I first saw first saw the incident, which was at work with the sound off. I didn't think, 'that looks like a racist incident to me' I thought, 'why are they stopping that guy getting on the train?' I didn't even notice he was black. It was only when I was told to think it was a racist incident by the outraged majority I decided to have a look for myself ask a few questions and try and make my mind up rather than follow the crowd.

I think you have an entirely valid point on media influence overall, but these boys are bang to rights.

 

Compare the general media reaction to a handful of Chelsea fans acting like c*nts to 200 Dutch fans rampaging through Rome.

 

And that's a valid point on media influence/coverage.

[pap]

To be fair Pap, I offered a potential situation above where it was said ironically, which you conveniently decided to ignore - again. I've noticed it's become a bit of a habit recently with you...

I haven't conveniently decided to ignore anything. I find your points indefensible, either in context or as the evidence would be seen in a court of law.

 

I've got a weird background which gives me a stake in the debate, and has probably influenced my thinking, but it would not enter my head to say those things out loud, nor deliberately stop a series of people getting on a train for that matter.

 

The incident with the black dude cannot be dismissed as not-racist because it sits in the context of them preventing a load of people from getting on the metro. If they'd said nowt remoting to racism, you'd have a point. Forgiveness because it has its origins in a football chant doesn't quite work for me, because you still have to be a racist arse on some scale to feel comfy chanting that.

 

Would you chant that, and if not, why not?

[Smirking_Saint]

I'm not defending them. I'm just saying I don't think this episode was racially motivated myself. I think the guy could have been white, pink, yellow, male, female, fat, thin, in a wheelchair, whatever, I think they would have not let them on and chanted something at them.

 

I think the chants of 'were racist and we love it' and the eventual blocking of a black man are unfortunately too much to ignore for me. Am I getting hysterical ? No

 

Are a lot of the reactions of people over the top ? Yes

 

But realistically it was ****ing moronic and cant be said that it was anything over than a racially motivated incident. Even taking the blocking of the black man from the train out of the equation then they are still filmed singing racist chants. Unfortunately thats were the buck will stop.

 

Should they be banned for life ? Not in my opinion, but realistically they should expect a time limited ban, which I would personally find fair

[Smirking_Saint]

I haven't conveniently decided to ignore anything. I find your points indefensible, either in context or as the evidence would be seen in a court of law.

 

I've got a weird background which gives me a stake in the debate, and has probably influenced my thinking, but it would not enter my head to say those things out loud, nor deliberately stop a series of people getting on a train for that matter.

 

The incident with the black dude cannot be dismissed as not-racist because it sits in the context of them preventing a load of people from getting on the metro. If they'd said nowt remoting to racism, you'd have a point. Forgiveness because it has its origins in a football chant doesn't quite work for me, because you still have to be a racist arse on some scale to feel comfy chanting that.

 

Would you chant that, and if not, why not?

 

Exactly my way of thinking here

 

And Im pretty liberal minded, find the PC brigade over the top and loathe social media outrage. However I cant see how you can defend a bunch of idiots openly being filmed chanting a racist chant TBH

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I haven't conveniently decided to ignore anything. I find your points indefensible, either in context or as the evidence would be seen in a court of law.

 

I've got a weird background which gives me a stake in the debate, and has probably influenced my thinking, but it would not enter my head to say those things out loud, nor deliberately stop a series of people getting on a train for that matter.

 

The incident with the black dude cannot be dismissed as not-racist because it sits in the context of them preventing a load of people from getting on the metro. If they'd said nowt remoting to racism, you'd have a point. Forgiveness because it has its origins in a football chant doesn't quite work for me, because you still have to be a racist arse on some scale to feel comfy chanting that.

 

Would you chant that, and if not, why not?

 

Does that mean if I chant the old Pompey scum song I'm a murderer or that I believe they should die? I think they chanted it in an idiotic, ironic way, and they should be punished for it.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Exactly my way of thinking here

 

And Im pretty liberal minded, find the PC brigade over the top and loathe social media outrage. However I cant see how you can defend a bunch of idiots openly being filmed chanting a racist chant TBH

 

What's racist about that chant? Try chanting "I'm a paedophile. Does that make you a paedophile?

 

If they chanted that in the street, they couldn't be arrested for it, and certainly not for racist chants.

Edited 21 February, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Unbelievable Jeff]

One of the important points for me is the timeline of the incident.

 

Why did it take until they'd blocked the black guy to start the chant? Rather than chanting it before he tried to get on as a warning. This is what makes me think the chanting could be ironic.

[whelk]

One of the important points for me is the timeline of the incident.

 

Why did it take until they'd blocked the black guy to start the chant? Rather than chanting it before he tried to get on as a warning. This is what makes me think the chanting could be ironic.

 

Fck me your analysing this a bit too much. If you can't comprehend that Chelsea have always had right wing fans and this was some caught acting like cnts I despair. Using examples of only seeing gypsy abuse in London and picking up convenient irony no one else sees sees is truly baffling,

[pap]

Does that mean if I chant the old Pompey scum song I'm a murderer or that I believe they should die? I think they chanted it in an idiotic, ironic way, and they should be punished for it.

Completely different. Have you murdered any Portsmouth people? If you have, and were singing that song, and were filmed doing both acts, we might be comparing apples with apples.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Fck me your analysing this a bit too much. If you can't comprehend that Chelsea have always had right wing fans and this was some caught acting like cnts I despair. Using examples of only seeing gypsy abuse in London and picking up convenient irony no one else sees sees is truly baffling,

 

Whoa, where did I use gypsy abuse as any sort of defence? I said I don't go to the correct areas, and it was said as an aside, I said I fully expect that racist abuse happens in London irrelevant of this. Not like you to read things incorrectly though is it?

 

And as you can see from pretty much all my posts, I'm well aware that they were acting like ****s and should be banned for it.

 

Not sure what your point is actually as both the above points are incorrect based on what I've written on this thread.

Edited 21 February, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Completely different. Have you murdered any Portsmouth people? If you have, and were singing that song, and were filmed doing both acts, we might be comparing apples with apples.

 

I think we're going round in circles. For me, this is what has happened. I have tried to break it down further to no avail, so i guess I will just have to leave it at this:

 

The difference is whether this was indeed racially motivated, or whether or not these are faux racists. Essentially they don't have a problem with people of a different colour, but it's something controversial to chant and makes them feel big. For instance, when watching Chelsea do you think they boo their black players?

 

Also, from what is written on here about numerous people of all backgrounds being pushed off the train, I don't think it is racist. Stupid, bullying behaviour yes, but racist, I'm not sure.

 

I think this incident just shows how ****ing stupid these fans are, and how socially inept they are.

 

Maybe I try to see that there is always good in people, that there is an underlying misunderstanding that drives this kind of behaviour, especially when it's trial by grainy video. The abscence of knowledge of any actual racial abuse and a difference in the way that they were acting between other people and this black guy says to me they're just bullies, and that colour had nothing to do with the fact that they wouldn't let him on the train.

[shurlock]

Maybe I try to see that there is always good in people, that there is an underlying misunderstanding that drives this kind of behaviour, especially when it's trial by grainy video. The abscence of knowledge of any actual racial abuse and a difference in the way that they were acting between other people and this black guy says to me they're just bullies, and that colour had nothing to do with the fact that they wouldn't let him on the train.

 

I guess they didn't teach you logic down in Plymouth's ivory towers, though Pap isn't covering himself in glory either.

 

To paraphrase the Libertines song, "her old man, he don't like blacks or queers". In this case, because her old man doesn't like queers, does it make them less racist? No. But, in effect, that's the absurdity you're dimly peddling. Disliking one group doesn't take away from the possibility of disliking another group -or make that dislike any less intense. Indeed, its quite the opposite as these things often cluster (but that's a separate, empirical point).

 

Now change the basis of the abuse. Had the fans been treating everyone who wasn't Chelsea like c**ts -note the subtle distinction- then your argument might be on slightly firmer ground.

 

But there isn't a shred of evidence, nor have you tried to claim that Chelsea fans were abusing all and sundry -women, children, old people, anyone who had the temerity to get on etc. Rather you keep bleating on about the abuse of PSG fans. Which is to say, their abuse appears to have been fundamentally discrete, targeting two specific and identifiable groups, something which is perfectly consistent with a racist spin (see above).

[Turkish]

If the media say it's racist, it's racist Turks. And if we disagree it also makes us racist and want to emulate Himmler et al. Luckily my gestapo uniform is back from the dry cleaners so I can go out and push some people off public transport all day tomorrow.

 

The other amusing thing is that appears of you question if it was a race incident, you're defending them and condoning what they did. I think I've said on numerous occasions they were acting like bullying c*nts and should be punished for that, but that isn't the issue.

 

If we are to truly crush racism then we need to stop this hysterical reaction every time there is an incident. People all trying to out do each other to show how angry they are about it in a 'look at me Im not racist' type way. Every incident of discrimination should be treated equally. It's patronising to black and Asian people that 'crimes' against them are considered to be worse and should be more severely punished than crimes against whites.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I guess they didn't teach you logic down in Plymouth's ivory towers, though Pap isn't covering himself in glory either.

 

To paraphrase the Libertines song, "her old man, he don't like blacks or queers". In this case, because her old man doesn't like queers, does it make them less racist? No. But, in effect, that's the absurdity you're dimly peddling. Disliking one group doesn't take away from the possibility of disliking another group -or make that dislike any less intense. Indeed, its quite the opposite as these things often cluster (but that's a separate, empirical point).

 

Now change the basis of the abuse. Had the fans been treating everyone who wasn't Chelsea like c**ts -note the subtle distinction- then your argument might be on slightly firmer ground.

 

But there isn't a shred of evidence, nor have you tried to claim that Chelsea fans were abusing all and sundry -women, children, old people, anyone who had the temerity to get on etc. Rather you keep bleating on about the abuse of PSG fans. Which is to say, their abuse appears to have been fundamentally discrete, targeting two specific and identifiable groups, something which is perfectly consistent with a racist spin (see above).

 

To be fair, I believed they were abusing everyone. Was it only PSG fans and then a black bloke they pushed off the train then? Genuine question there.

 

You say I've kept bleating on about PSG fans - I don't think I've used either PSG or fans to describe them anywhere.

Edited 21 February, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[bridge too far]

And there's more

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31564836

[JackanorySFC]

Compare the general media reaction to a handful of Chelsea fans acting like c*nts to 200 Dutch fans rampaging through Rome.

 

Way more than 200 mate.

 

I've been in Rome since Weds morning, spent some time with Fayernoord's fans on Weds and went to the game on Thursday.

 

Firstly the Dutch are properly mental. I love em. 300+ Absolutely steaming at 3pm on Weds, I was in Campo de Fiori area and stayed for an hour or so having a few beers and talking Koeman, Saints, FFC etc. Glasses started getting smashed (dropped not thrown but signs weren't good), so me and the missus went on our way and wished them well. However after that it has been carnage! They had running battles with the OB in the square we were in earlier. All over the news here. Worse was to come on Thursday, they smashed up the 500 year old fountain at the bottom of the Spanish steps. WTF is that about? Worse was to come though, there was a booze lockdown in the CC which had potential to ruin our trip, however a corrupt Tabac worker took a €20 bribe off me to sell us some prosecco and beers to have before the game. Nightmare to get to the ground as roads shut down as 1000+ ticketless Dutch decided to March to the ground. As I say, properly mental the Dutch!

 

Anyway, onto the subject of racism. We were in Curva Sud, great atmosphere btw, Gervinho scored for ASR, brilliant celebration, flares, air bombs, smoke bombs and all sorts of stuff we'd get life bans for getting lobbed everywhere and stewards doing nothing. Then after the goal every mistake Gervinho made was met with screams at the "mulanyah" (derogatory term for a black person). That along with monkey chants. All stuff that would cause our media to go crazy. Papers with 5 pages of pics of rampaging Dutch yesterday, no mention of open racism and non stop piro.

 

Jodie Clasie is a class act btw. I'll be sending my scouting report to Koeman in homage to Turk's Morgan spot on holiday in France.

[sadoldgit]

And there's more

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31564836

 

No doubt the apologists will see this as just a bit of banter.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

No doubt the apologists will see this as just a bit of banter.

 

I doubt it, this seems more pre-meditated now.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why was it being filmed?

[Griffo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2961465/Mother-targeted-threatening-notes-racist-graffiti-moving-new-flat-block-told-black-sisters-brothers.html

 

This is much, much worse. Front page of every newspaper? Of course not.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2961465/Mother-targeted-threatening-notes-racist-graffiti-moving-new-flat-block-told-black-sisters-brothers.html

 

This is much, much worse. Front page of every newspaper? Of course not.

 

Now that's racist! Black on white though innit, so doesn't count.

Edited 21 February, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[pap]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2961465/Mother-targeted-threatening-notes-racist-graffiti-moving-new-flat-block-told-black-sisters-brothers.html

 

This is much, much worse. Front page of every newspaper? Of course not.

 

That's disgraceful, and needs to be called out as such.

 

Now that's racist! Black on white though innit, so doesn't count.

 

Of course it counts. Why wouldn't it?

 

There's more than a touch of the injured white man about this remark, so take it from someone who has got a few genuine black mates (e.g. not an imaginary counterweight in a sentence beginning "I'm not racist, but..."), we've got it easy. Stopped and searched all the time, never knowing whether a stranger is going to be a racist and perhaps violent plank, having to bite your tongue through slight after slight.

 

If someone is discriminating against someone else on the basis of race, it's racism. Doesn't matter what the inputs and outputs are.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

That's disgraceful, and needs to be called out as such.

 

 

 

Of course it counts. Why wouldn't it?

 

There's more than a touch of the injured white man about this remark, so take it from someone who has got a few genuine black mates (e.g. not an imaginary counterweight in a sentence beginning "I'm not racist, but..."), we've got it easy. Stopped and searched all the time, never knowing whether a stranger is going to be a racist and perhaps violent plank, having to bite your tongue through slight after slight.

 

If someone is discriminating against someone else on the basis of race, it's racism. Doesn't matter what the inputs and outputs are.

 

In the eyes of the press/media I mean...

[Ludwig]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2961465/Mother-targeted-threatening-notes-racist-graffiti-moving-new-flat-block-told-black-sisters-brothers.html

 

This is much, much worse. Front page of every newspaper? Of course not.

 

The train things wasnt on the front page of every newspaper. This story is a few days old and is still being reported now. So it has had plenty of attention.

 

Now that's racist! Black on white though innit, so doesn't count.

 

How do you know it was black people who wrote the notes? I dont believe it was because i see the good in everyone. The media are trying to tell us that it was blacks who wrote the notes but i havent seen any evidence that this is true. Willenhall is not a "black area" as the media would have you believe. Some of us like to dig a bit deeper and not just get caught up in what the media tell us.

[Griffo]

That's disgraceful, and needs to be called out as such.

 

 

 

Of course it counts. Why wouldn't it?

 

There's more than a touch of the injured white man about this remark, so take it from someone who has got a few genuine black mates (e.g. not an imaginary counterweight in a sentence beginning "I'm not racist, but..."), we've got it easy. Stopped and searched all the time, never knowing whether a stranger is going to be a racist and perhaps violent plank, having to bite your tongue through slight after slight.

 

If someone is discriminating against someone else on the basis of race, it's racism. Doesn't matter what the inputs and outputs are.

 

The stop and search is valid. Look at figures, it's a fact that the proportion and percentage of crime committed by blacks is high (especially knife crime) compared to their population percentage.

[Coxford_lou]

The stop and search is valid. Look at figures, it's a fact that the proportion and percentage of crime committed by blacks is high (especially knife crime) compared to their population percentage.

 

You could say the same for men and rape. But I wouldn't advocate taking away your human rights because of it (tempting though that might be).

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The train things wasnt on the front page of every newspaper. This story is a few days old and is still being reported now. So it has had plenty of attention.

 

 

 

How do you know it was black people who wrote the notes? I dont believe it was because i see the good in everyone. The media are trying to tell us that it was blacks who wrote the notes but i havent seen any evidence that this is true. Willenhall is not a "black area" as the media would have you believe. Some of us like to dig a bit deeper and not just get caught up in what the media tell us.

 

All fair points, perhaps we should wait for the court cases and not cast aspersions until then. I apologise for jumping the gun.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

The stop and search is valid. Look at figures, it's a fact that the proportion and percentage of crime committed by blacks is high (especially knife crime) compared to their population percentage.

 

Hmmm, ever stop and think why that might be? No societal issues at play there?

 

All fair points, perhaps we should wait for the court cases and not cast aspersions until then. I apologise for jumping the gun.

 

What difference will it make, even if convicted, people will be bending over backwards to suggest it's a miscarriage of justice. Exactly like in the Ched Evans case.

[Coxford_lou]

I dont believe it was because i see the good in everyone.

 

Best way to be. Saves a lot of wasted energy getting angry with people.

[whelk]

 

A lot of effort

[Unbelievable Jeff]

 

A lot of effort

 

Fairplay.

[Griffo]

 

A lot of effort

 

Attention seeking tw*t.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Attention seeking tw*t.

 

Someone take out the trash

[Turkish]

Someone take out the trash

 

He's got a point, whose benefit was the sign for and why was he apologising?

[Jonnyboy]

He's got a point, whose benefit was the sign for and why was he apologising?

 

Sign was for the media and other fans. The apology was on behalf of all decent fans.

[Turkish]

Sign was for the media and other fans. The apology was on behalf of all decent fans.

 

So he was apologising on behalf of currently innocent people he's never met for an incident which is as yet unproven. It was pointless anyway as the victim admitted he can't speak English, so not for his benefit at all.

Edited 21 February, 2015 by Turkish

[stug76]

I think he's apologising on his own behalf, as a Chelsea fan for the racist actions of the Chelsea fans whether they be the guys that confronted him or the guys that were singing the racist song. I think it's safe to assume that he making a wider point about the attitude of some of the Chelsea fans. Fair play to the guy, he potentially making himself a target to stand up for a cause. Very brave.

 

I think that incident has been blown out of all proportion, but, if it raises debate about something that is so ridiculous and in the case of football fans, so hypocritical and something changes then we are in a better place than we were before. The danger is that some people just use it as a stick to beat all football fans with.

[Coxford_lou]

So he was apologising on behalf of currently innocent people he's never met for an incident which is as yet unproven. It was pointless anyway as the victim admitted he can't speak English, so not for his benefit at all.

 

People rarely do thing 'on behalf' of other people. To make the effort to make a sign, then stand up and take the risk to show it amongst a crowd of unknown empathy, I think there's likelihood he empathisises on a personal level with the issue.

 

But unless you make the effort to actually ask him, Turks, I'm not sure how you'd know for sure.

[Coxford_lou]

Attention seeking tw*t.

 

Just because you are, doesn't mean everyone else is. Loser!

[Sour Mash]

Someone take out the trash

 

Just because you are, doesn't mean everyone else is. Loser!

Loners who go to football on their own :lol:

[Coxford_lou]

Loners who go to football on their own :lol:

 

Hi Sour, in what sad world would you equate doing something on your own with with being a loser? Are you and Griffo the same person?

[Sour Mash]

Hi Sour, in what sad world would you equate doing something on your own with with being a loser? Are you and Griffo the same person?

Stick to meeting strangers in pubs, proper weirdo behaviour. One day,you might make your own friends fingers crossed.

[Coxford_lou]

Stick to meeting strangers in pubs, proper weirdo behaviour. One day,you might make your own friends fingers crossed.

 

LOL! Wow, thanks for the advice. I'll try and remember that. Good job I've got someone like you to guide me. Hopefully can one day I can be as popular as you. I aspire to reach your heights of charisma and charm. If only...if only...I knew what your magic formula was. But thanks for caring. I'll keep working on it...

[Jonnyboy]

Hi Sour, in what sad world would you equate doing something on your own with with being a loser? Are you and Griffo the same person?

 

Don't worry Lou. You'll have learned now that Turkish, Griffo, This Charming Man, Patrick_Bateman and Sour Mash are all pretty much identikit EDL/UKIP fans and best ignored.

[Coxford_lou]

Don't worry Lou. You'll have learned now that Turkish, Griffo, This Charming Man, Patrick_Bateman and Sour Mash are all pretty much identikit EDL/UKIP fans and best ignored.

 

Thanks Jonnyboy. Griffo and Sour Mash are new to me. This charming man I've not come across yet.

 

Thanks for watching my back!

[whelk]

Don't worry Lou. You'll have learned now that Turkish, Griffo, This Charming Man, Patrick_Bateman and Sour Mash are all pretty much identikit EDL/UKIP fans and best ignored.

 

Think you are doing Turkish a disservice. Yes he like to be contrary but is a valuable contributor challenging views.

 

Mind I get often called obnoxious keyboard warrior but think that is unfair. Just stupid cnts annoy me:-)

 

I used to think Sour Mash was ok but him mocking you just shows what an obnoxious ***** he almost certainly is. There is one thing getting irate about bedwetting, different political views etc. but mocking someone for being a loner (I know you are not Lou)just shows him up to be a sad bully.

[whelk]

Stick to meeting strangers in pubs, proper weirdo behaviour. One day,you might make your own friends fingers crossed.

 

Bet your mates don't really like you - your probably sow one just to go to football with you sad cnt

[Unbelievable Jeff]

This all got out of hand pretty quickly...

[Turkish]

People rarely do thing 'on behalf' of other people. To make the effort to make a sign, then stand up and take the risk to show it amongst a crowd of unknown empathy, I think there's likelihood he empathisises on a personal level with the issue.

 

But unless you make the effort to actually ask him, Turks, I'm not sure how you'd know for sure.

 

Why would he have empathised in a personal level?