Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 LOL....Yeah very obviously.... No one turned any debt into equity in league one :lol::lol: If you think we lived in our means in L1 thats fine, carry on thinking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 We didn't live within our means. That wasn't my point - Although, you could argue the "means" were dependent on the owners willing investment. We reached the premier league with a minus 2 million deficit ...... Totally incredible and such a nominal amount that probably more than quadrupled the investment to date at that point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Is there some sort of cash prize for proving MLG wrong? this is the only currency that he understands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 If you think we lived in our means in L1 thats fine, carry on thinking it. Not what I was saying, but as suggested above your station..... you just don't get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 That wasn't my point - Although, you could argue the "means" were dependent on the owners willing investment. We reached the premier league with a minus 2 million deficit ...... Totally incredible and such a nominal amount that probably more than quadrupled the investment to date at that point in time. Funded by little things like the fact we wouldn't have got anywhere near the fee for Oxlade-Chamberlain if we weren't owned by a freaking billionaire in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 I think most people take 'living within your means' as not going in debt what so ever. Doing that without the owner, chairman or whoever to put their hand in their pocket, regardless if that is turned into equity or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Particularly those who play amateur football on a Sunday.. Biggest losers of the lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Funded by little things like the fact we wouldn't have got anywhere near the fee for Oxlade-Chamberlain if we weren't owned by a freaking billionaire in the first place. Never considered the owners wealth relative to a players value, but you could be right. Probably makes more sense to relate it to the financial situation of the club (As to whether they need to sell or not) but I think ultimately payers dictate their own worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 I think most people take 'living within your means' as not going in debt what so ever. Doing that without the owner, chairman or whoever to put their hand in their pocket, regardless if that is turned into equity or not. You are right..... League one minus ten, to Premier league at minus two million, would, by most chairmen (And lets be frank, no chairman in the world would turn that down) would be considered living within your means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Not what I was saying, but as suggested above your station..... you just don't get it Fair enough, we didn't convert a debt, or a loan into shares and the Financial Director at the time definitely didn't say "Effectively the club no longer owes that money." We also definitely didn't make an £11m loss during our promotion season from L1. I just dont get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Never considered the owners wealth relative to a players value, but you could be right. Probably makes more sense to relate it to the financial situation of the club (As to whether they need to sell or not) but I think ultimately payers dictate their own worth. Maybe you should consider that before you accuse others of "not understanding". And just as an additional, any other lower league club lucky enough to receive a transfer fee windfall like we did for Alex OC (not that they would without the power of a billionaire) would not then spend every last penny of it on fees for new players. They'd live within their means and spend it on the upkeep of the club. You quote your £2m thing like we somehow scrimped and scraped to the Premier League on small change. Hereford got wound up for £100k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 I hope BT can afford to offload Michael Owen if they've got enough cash for this. "Pochettino is doing a great job. He's transformed this Spurs side from a 6/7th placed side over the last few years to a side that belongs in the top 4". Maybe someone should mention that they're currently 6th, and their last 5 seasons they've been 4th-6th. Tw*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 I hope BT can afford to offload Michael Owen if they've got enough cash for this. "Pochettino is doing a great job. He's transformed this Spurs side from a 6/7th placed side over the last few years to a side that belongs in the top 4". Maybe someone should mention that they're currently 6th, and their last 5 seasons they've been 4th-6th. Tw*t. I hate Michael Owen's commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nta786 Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 this is as bad as MLG's little fantasy he had last year. http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?48666-Wang-Jianlin-looking-at-175m-takeover-of-Southampton-according-to-Sunday-Mirror#.VNpzCotLHzI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Maybe you should consider that before you accuse others of "not understanding". And just as an additional, any other lower league club lucky enough to receive a transfer fee windfall like we did for Alex OC (not that they would without the power of a billionaire) would not then spend every last penny of it on fees for new players. They'd live within their means and spend it on the upkeep of the club. You quote your £2m thing like we somehow scrimped and scraped to the Premier League on small change. Hereford got wound up for £100k. If decent FFP rules were in place 10 years ago we wouldn't have ended up in administration in the first place. It's true we spent beyond our means to get out of League 1 but we should never have been there at all. Where Saints went wrong was 2 years before administration when Mike Wilde was still running the show. We lost our parachute payments but instead of cutting the wage bill we spent large amounts of money we didn't have on wages for Stern Jhon, Jason Euell, Greg Vignal, Marek Saganowski, Wayne Thomas, Andrew Davies and Useless Safri. Had Football League rules prevented us from offering those wages, we'd have ended up a fairly stable Championship club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 The amount of money that Premier League clubs will receive now is crazy - regardless of how good they are, they will be nudging close to £100m of income. I've no doubt most of the money will find its way to the players, which also means that the league will continue to attract most of the best players in the world. I think the national game owes it to itself to distribute some of this money down the pyramid, specifically to safeguard the national game really in terms of player development and overall welfare of the game. I don't think it matters whether or not Championship downwards contribute directly to the Premier League, they do so indirectly in so many ways that if they were to disappear then the national game would suffer massively. This money also screws the English national team a bit more, but that is an argument for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Fair enough, we didn't convert a debt, or a loan into shares and the Financial Director at the time definitely didn't say "Effectively the club no longer owes that money." We also definitely didn't make an £11m loss during our promotion season from L1. I just dont get it. I can see you don't get it and thank you for admitting you were wrong with your original post on the subject (perhaps a first from you on the forum?) The financial Director was right (Whilst Marcus was alive). The whole time we were spending money in League One and the Championship (injected into the club by Marcus- who hated debt) we were simply drawing down on assets. As is the sellable items and company worth, (players, stadium, land, houses, golden share, brand, merchandise TV money etc. etc.) At no time did we (Or have we since) gone past that tipping point. (I would add that I fully accept that player values are not reflected in a typical way on the balance sheet, but that works both ways) The conversation to equity came when we reached the premier league and the "Estate" expected us to be self sustaining from there on in (May be more to come publically with that one) Regardless how much Oxo fudges the figures, we reached the Prem on a 2 million net spend, we simply drew down on our assets and that the conversion to equity was the most tax efficient and generous way Markus could do it ....now if you were to ask about the reduction in share capital, that might be a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 I can see you don't get it and thank you for admitting you were wrong with your original post on the subject (perhaps a first from you on the forum?) The financial Director was right (Whilst Marcus was alive). The whole time we were spending money in League One and the Championship (injected into the club by Marcus- who hated debt) we were simply drawing down on assets. As is the sellable items and company worth, (players, stadium, land, houses, golden share, brand, merchandise TV money etc. etc.) At no time did we (Or have we since) gone past that tipping point. (I would add that I fully accept that player values are not reflected in a typical way on the balance sheet, but that works both ways) The conversation to equity came when we reached the premier league and the "Estate" expected us to be self sustaining from there on in (May be more to come publically with that one) Regardless how much Oxo fudges the figures, we reached the Prem on a 2 million net spend, we simply drew down on our assets and that the conversion to equity was the most tax efficient and generous way Markus could do it ....now if you were to ask about the reduction in share capital, that might be a different story. We were still in the championship when the debt was converted to equity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 We were still in the championship when the debt was converted to equity. Wrong again.... keep trying. (We were already promoted) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Wrong again.... keep trying. (We were already promoted) err. no we weren't. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804 I just dont get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Yes to both. Now will you stop calling adolscents c***s on the internet just because you disagree with them? Poor form, especially for a teacher. I'm sure you don't call your pupils those sort of vile words to their faces, but then again, it is easy to hide behind internet monikers. Kind Regards, Your f*****g Oppo Good to see you're still as mentally unstable as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 err. no we weren't. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804 I just dont get it. You can have that (But wasn't conclude at companies house until after the event) ..............Just doesn't change a thing about your opening posts. We only drew down on assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 You can have that (But wasn't conclude at companies house until after the event) ..............Just doesn't change a thing about your opening posts. We only drew down on assets. My opening post was that we turned a loan into shares. We did exactly that whether you like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 My opening post was that we turned a loan into shares. We did exactly that whether you like it or not. You were swaking on about doing it in league one and living outside our means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 My opening post was that we turned a loan into shares. We did exactly that whether you like it or not. And by that is a brilliant thing.... the alternatives are something like...............err pompey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 You were swaking on about doing it in league one and living outside our means. We ran at an £11m loss the season we got promoted from league 1. You were "swaking" about us doing it when we were in the premier league and were going to be self sustaining. We didnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 We ran at an £11m loss the season we got promoted from league 1. You were "swaking" about us doing it when we were in the premier league and were going to be self sustaining. We didnt. Back to where we started .... you don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Back to where we started .... you don't get it. It's quite simple really. Did we covert a debt into shares or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 We ran at an £11m loss the season we got promoted from league 1. You were "swaking" about us doing it when we were in the premier league and were going to be self sustaining. We didnt. And we didn't run at an 11 million loss that season, that was the two league one seasons combined (Without incoming player money). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 It is just ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 It's quite simple really. Did we covert a debt into shares or not? Yes...... Therefore we didn't live above our means :lol::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 pls turkish, for christ's sake, just say that you get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 And we didn't run at an 11 million loss that season, that was the two league one seasons combined (Without incoming player money). Read the link i posted "Saints made a net loss of £11.5m in winning League One promotion last term" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Read the link i posted "Saints made a net loss of £11.5m in winning League One promotion last term" Don't have too... I have accounts in front of me now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Yes...... Therefore we didn't live above our means :lol::lol: We benefited from handouts from our owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 We benefited from handouts from our owner. Make your freaking mind up :mcinnes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Gemmel playing blinder tonight then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsash saint Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 & still ticket prices will go up......totally obscene!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Well, page 1 was interesting, then it became the usual p1ssing contest between the same few, that make this forum what it is today....dull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 & still ticket prices will go up......totally obscene!! The last increase was followed by a stat that all clubs could let fans in for FREE and still make more money than they previously had, so that means that clubs could now actually pay fans to come and watch and still make more money than they were only a few years ago. Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 Possible correlation between Saints success and the last two deal being so drastically higher....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Saint Posted 10 February, 2015 Share Posted 10 February, 2015 I have seen every Saints BPL game this season. It seems that the USA has more live games than the UK. In fact you can pick and choose which game you want to watch on a Saturday as they are all televised here. We are truly very lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 I can get the games on 4 different channels with my HD package and theres another channel that I'm to cheap to subscribe to..........have seen 90% of Saints games so far this season............don't know why it costs you guys so much in the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 If decent FFP rules were in place 10 years ago we wouldn't have ended up in administration in the first place. It's true we spent beyond our means to get out of League 1 but we should never have been there at all. Where Saints went wrong was 2 years before administration when Mike Wilde was still running the show. We lost our parachute payments but instead of cutting the wage bill we spent large amounts of money we didn't have on wages for Stern Jhon, Jason Euell, Greg Vignal, Marek Saganowski, Wayne Thomas, Andrew Davies and Useless Safri. Had Football League rules prevented us from offering those wages, we'd have ended up a fairly stable Championship club. Two points: first, I wasn't following Southampton back then so none of those names are familiar to me, but Safri's parents should have come up with a better first name. Second, if FFP had been in place for the last ten years we would probably still be a fairly stable Championship club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 Two points: first, I wasn't following Southampton back then so none of those names are familiar to me, but Safri's parents should have come up with a better first name. Second, if FFP had been in place for the last ten years we would probably still be a fairly stable Championship club. Which would be pretty fair I think, if we're trying to distinguish what's right for the game from what suited us in the past. I think we could still have made some of the signings we did but with smaller wages and transfer fees. Take Lambert as a prime example. We paid about £1m for him and pretty much doubled his wages from £5k to £10k as I understand it. Both Lambert's agent and Rovers' board knew we were quids in and trying to spend out way back to the top asap. As a result they pushed their prices up. Under tougher FFP they may have agreed to something like £600k and £7k a week, knowing it was the best deal they would get. It would have given us a similar budget and chance at promotion to other similar sized Championship clubs. We would have had to compete with the likes of Leeds, Forest, Derby, Boro etc. on a roughly even playing field and the best managed clubs with the best youth teams would come to the fore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 I can get the games on 4 different channels with my HD package and theres another channel that I'm to cheap to subscribe to..........have seen 90% of Saints games so far this season............don't know why it costs you guys so much in the UK Crazy isn't it. I have TSN and Sportsnet and now it is rare that I have to look for a decent stream to watch saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 Which would be pretty fair I think, if we're trying to distinguish what's right for the game from what suited us in the past. I think we could still have made some of the signings we did but with smaller wages and transfer fees. Take Lambert as a prime example. We paid about £1m for him and pretty much doubled his wages from £5k to £10k as I understand it. Both Lambert's agent and Rovers' board knew we were quids in and trying to spend out way back to the top asap. As a result they pushed their prices up. Under tougher FFP they may have agreed to something like £600k and £7k a week, knowing it was the best deal they would get. It would have given us a similar budget and chance at promotion to other similar sized Championship clubs. We would have had to compete with the likes of Leeds, Forest, Derby, Boro etc. on a roughly even playing field and the best managed clubs with the best youth teams would come to the fore. You are probably right. And that would have given us an edge for promotion overtime, but staying up would have been a lot more difficult--although if we still had a rich owner he could spend a lot of money under premier league FFP so long as we were not competing in Europe. (35 million pounds a year.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 (edited) Two points: first, I wasn't following Southampton back then so none of those names are familiar to me, but Safri's parents should have come up with a better first name. Second, if FFP had been in place for the last ten years we would probably still be a fairly stable Championship club. Again worth looking at our spending in the 2011/12 promotion season. Would hazard a guess and say that with our relatively small squad, lack of legacy investments, tidy transfer dealings and decent attendances by championship standards, we went up by spending comparatively little -and that had FFP been in operation, it would have bit harder on other clubs, giving us an advantage. Edited 11 February, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 11 February, 2015 Share Posted 11 February, 2015 Again worth looking at our spending in the 2011/12 promotion season. Would hazard a guess and say that with our relatively small squad, lack of legacy investments, tidy transfer dealings and decent attendances by championship standards, we went up by spending comparatively little -and that had FFP been in operation, it would have bit harder on other clubs, giving us an advantage. You may be right. I have purchased the last four years' financials from company house and was going to do some kind of blog article covering the financial history of the Liebherr era after this year's financials are released. I will look at it from that perspective at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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