Fitzhugh Fella Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 I am a little confused what this actually means. Is it a case that should we want to make the deal permanent the fee is agreed at the time of the loan but it is still dependant on the player agreeing to it? Pretty much what I assume was the case with Bertrand. But do the selling club have the right to say no actually we don't want to sell to you as say A Madrid could do with Alderweireld. And can another club enter the market and gazump? I assume a lot of clubs must be looking at Toby and would like to buy him this summer and if they offer him more we lose our option? Basically I guess the question I am asking is just how watertight are these options to buy and are they worth the paper they are written on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Didn't someone say that Madrid have a clause that they can Cancel our Agreed Purchase Option if they want to, but they have to pay back our Loan Fee or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Didn't someone say that Madrid have a clause that they can Cancel our Agreed Purchase Option if they want to, but they have to pay back our Loan Fee or something like that? Yes I'm pretty sure that I read we have an option to buy for around £7m but Madrid want to cancel they have to give us £2m. Which for them is worth doing as Tonys stock is high now and you'd think he'd be worth at least double the fee we've agreed. I also read that clubs like saints will use this a lot more moving forward as it's a way round FFP. We've for 3 of these on our books so seems to stack up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Didn't someone say that Madrid have a clause that they can Cancel our Agreed Purchase Option if they want to, but they have to pay back our Loan Fee or something like that? 1.5 million penalty fee to opt out, hardly unheard of in contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 I am a little confused what this actually means. Is it a case that should we want to make the deal permanent the fee is agreed at the time of the loan but it is still dependant on the player agreeing to it? Pretty much what I assume was the case with Bertrand. But do the selling club have the right to say no actually we don't want to sell to you as say A Madrid could do with Alderweireld. And can another club enter the market and gazump? I assume a lot of clubs must be looking at Toby and would like to buy him this summer and if they offer him more we lose our option? Basically I guess the question I am asking is just how watertight are these options to buy and are they worth the paper they are written on. I would guess that we agree a fee up front with the club and provided we can sign terms with the player, that is it. The options would be watertight legally, however if would depend on what criteria are input into the deal which would trigger the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 As said, it does seem the deal for Toby is somewhat more complex. Athletico may well fancy their chances of getting more wedge elsewhere, and Toby may well fancy seeing who else comes knocking, he may well get offers from CL teams. As unhelpful as this is, these deals vary depending on the individual or club in question. There doesn't seem to be a set way these play out. The Bertrand deal was pretty straightforward, loan agreed with agreed fee, player happy to get first team football at Prem level and club happy to move the player on. Seems both Athletico & Toby are hedging their bets a little bit more than Chelsea/RB. Effectively, option to buy can mean a number of things. Though, in practice means a bid of 'x agreed amount' has to be accepted - unless other stipulations are in place, and the deal is then subject to player agreeing to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 As said, it does seem the deal for Toby is somewhat more complex. Athletico may well fancy their chances of getting more wedge elsewhere, and Toby may well fancy seeing who else comes knocking, he may well get offers from CL teams. As unhelpful as this is, these deals vary depending on the individual or club in question. There doesn't seem to be a set way these play out. The Bertrand deal was pretty straightforward, loan agreed with agreed fee, player happy to get first team football at Prem level and club happy to move the player on. Seems both Athletico & Toby are hedging their bets a little bit more than Chelsea/RB. Effectively, option to buy can mean a number of things. Though, in practice means a bid of 'x agreed amount' has to be accepted - unless other stipulations are in place, and the deal is then subject to player agreeing to move. He may already have an option to buy with one as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 He may already have an option to buy with one as well... Haha, let's not get too carried away just yet. Annoyingly, Arsenal, Spurs & Liverpool are starting to look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 A true "option" means that it's at the buyer's discretion. Ie. it is a right which the buyer can exercise. For that to be the case then the player must have already agreed to it as well as the selling club. If either the player or the selling club has not agreed in advance then I don't see how it can possibly be described as an "option", as it clearly isn't. That's normal business sense but seeing as we're talking about football it may well be a completely misleading moniker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 3 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 3 February, 2015 A true "option" means that it's at the buyer's discretion. Ie. it is a right which the buyer can exercise. For that to be the case then the player must have already agreed to it as well as the selling club. If either the player or the selling club has not agreed in advance then I don't see how it can possibly be described as an "option", as it clearly isn't. That's normal business sense but seeing as we're talking about football it may well be a completely misleading moniker... Yep your middle line sort of sums it up - saying we have an option to buy is misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 The only instance where I have seen a club have an option to buy was when Hearts took up their option when Skacel wanted to join us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 A player will move where they want. The option is between the clubs i.e a fixed price the deal can be done for as long as the player is keen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 I've always thought of it as the club has 1st dibs on the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 ........it seems that none of us really knows the actual wording to this loan? but in simple language - if an option to buy.....and a pre-determined sum of money was mentioned, (as this apparantly was) but that can be later reneged on....then why was a sum of money mentioned at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 The only instance where I have seen a club have an option to buy was when Hearts took up their option when Skacel wanted to join us. I knew there must have been a good reason why he never signed for us.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 I am a little confused what this actually means. Is it a case that should we want to make the deal permanent the fee is agreed at the time of the loan but it is still dependant on the player agreeing to it? Pretty much what I assume was the case with Bertrand. But do the selling club have the right to say no actually we don't want to sell to you as say A Madrid could do with Alderweireld. And can another club enter the market and gazump? I assume a lot of clubs must be looking at Toby and would like to buy him this summer and if they offer him more we lose our option? Basically I guess the question I am asking is just how watertight are these options to buy and are they worth the paper they are written on. Pretty watertight, to the point that AM will have to pay a fee in order to walk away from the agreement. The player, I believe, is under no obligation to accept the terms of an agreement. As for the transfer fee its contractually agreed, that if we are happy with the loan then we are able to buy the player at an agreed price. Basically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Yes I'm pretty sure that I read we have an option to buy for around £7m but Madrid want to cancel they have to give us £2m. Which for them is worth doing as Tonys stock is high now and you'd think he'd be worth at least double the fee we've agreed. I also read that clubs like saints will use this a lot more moving forward as it's a way round FFP. We've for 3 of these on our books so seems to stack up. Theres been a lot of loans with options to buy this year, as, like you say. It enables you to get a player in but delay the payment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 So, it seems to me that there are three "ifs". IF the borrowing club wants to sign the player. We obviously do want to sign Toby. IF the loan player wants to stay. Toby has said he does but, as players always do, put the "we'll wait and see in the summer" rider on it. IF it makes financial sense for the loaning club to make the loan a permanent transfer. In this instance, they must set the repayment penalty and the agreed fee against either what they would have to pay to replace him in their squad, OR what they could get for him if his value rises during the loan period. This is where thing might get tricky because Toby's value has surely increased significantly while he's been with us - and some big clubs have "middle of the back four" issues. The cynic in me suspects that, the way football is these days, there might be a fourth IF. The last one would revolve around how the player's agent can influence the deal to maximize his cut. I'd love to see us keep him but that's a lot of IFs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 The only instance where I have seen a club have an option to buy was when Hearts took up their option when Skacel wanted to join us. Didn't we do just this with Bertrand?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Theres been a lot of loans with options to buy this year, as, like you say. It enables you to get a player in but delay the payment Most selling clubs won't agree to an option to buy unless there are question marks over the player - can't see it being a general strategy unless we start fishing exclusively in one part of the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Theres been a lot of loans with options to buy this year, as, like you say. It enables you to get a player in but delay the payment Was that part of the reason United loaned Falcao? I suspect his injury record may also have played some part, but seem to recall this was mentioned also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Didn't we do just this with Bertrand?!?! the point being that Skacel no longer wanted to join Hearts but for some reason they were still able to make the loan permanent and we had to negotiate with them rather than Marseille. as far as we know Bertrand still wanted to join us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Most selling clubs won't agree to an option to buy unless there are question marks over the player - can't see it being a general strategy unless we start fishing exclusively in one part of the market. Its a waybto circumnavigate FFP. And it works both ways. A selling club is able to negate the wages and get a possible sale. Of course there will be some form of question marks though yes, as otherwise they wouldnt want to release them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Was that part of the reason United loaned Falcao? I suspect his injury record may also have played some part, but seem to recall this was mentioned also. I imagine so, the money they spent I would imagine they couldnt 'afford' a fee for Falcao (surely 30m ish) plus the overinflated wages as part of FFP and so this is a convenient way round. Obviously this now means monaco are likely to get him back if he doesnt start hitting form soon. It would also explain the random loan of the Bolton CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 (edited) Its a waybto circumnavigate FFP. And it works both ways. A selling club is able to negate the wages and get a possible sale. Of course there will be some form of question marks though yes, as otherwise they wouldnt want to release them Not just that - they'd be able to command a sale or fee outright if the player was truly in demand. Like some simpletons saying we should have got Osvaldo on an option to buy and all our troubles would have been spared. The world doesn't work like that. Edited 3 February, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Something that has been true of quite a few of our signings this year is that the player has just finished a season spent predominantly on the bench. This is also true to an extent of TA - he might stick around because he's an automatic starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Not just that - they'd be able to command a sale or fee outright if the player was truly in demand. Like some simpletons saying we should have got Osvaldo on an option to buy and all our troubles would have been spared. The world doesn't work like that. Well yeah, its not a perfect situation and Im sure that if Athletico could get someone to buy Toby outright they would have done. But Im saying its a different economic situation then it was a few years ago with City, chelsea etc signing 100s of players. Which is why these sorts of deals are more common. But you are right, its not 'ideal' for the selling club. But then its either that or potentially not have the spare FFP funds to strengthen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjwills Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Most selling clubs won't agree to an option to buy unless there are question marks over the player - can't see it being a general strategy unless we start fishing exclusively in one part of the market. Glad Liverpool did not have a loan with option to buy on Lovren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 I've been away a couple of weeks, so have I missed any more Lovren mistakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 I've been away a couple of weeks, so have I missed any more Lovren mistakes? No ..they've kept him locked in the Anfield dressing room for most of the time ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 February, 2015 Share Posted 3 February, 2015 Pretty watertight, to the point that AM will have to pay a fee in order to walk away from the agreement. The player, I believe, is under no obligation to accept the terms of an agreement. As for the transfer fee its contractually agreed, that if we are happy with the loan then we are able to buy the player at an agreed price. Basically This and we would have exclusive rights to negotiate with the player before anyone else.........but watch out for the scum agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 No ..they've kept him locked in the Anfield dressing room for most of the time ..... He hasn't tweeted in 3 months or so he's so scared of the Scouse fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersubpuckett Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 maybe we couldn't afford to buy him as well as bertrand this window so need to wait until the summer when we will no doubt sell one or two for chunky fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 I think we definately have an Option to make an offer. Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highfield Saint Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 I did read somewhere on here - not this thread - that should we wish to take up all the option to buys then the cost would be c. £90m!?!? Whilst I don't see that this can be the case I wondered if anyone has a rough view of the figure required as this will be a key element in our summer transfer policy - sell to fund? let options lapse and find new options to replace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 Haha, let's not get too carried away just yet. Annoyingly, Arsenal, Spurs & Liverpool are starting to look good. And just about to launch themselves back into the European campaigns which are the reason they're not already above us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SO16_Saint Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 I've been away a couple of weeks, so have I missed any more Lovren mistakes? No, Lovren has been pretty rock solid these past few weeks. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's not actually played, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBizzier69 Posted 4 February, 2015 Share Posted 4 February, 2015 If anyone can the best out of an option to buy agreement........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 5 February, 2015 Share Posted 5 February, 2015 Shame. I don't think we're big on canning bests at Southampton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBizzier69 Posted 5 February, 2015 Share Posted 5 February, 2015 Fair point, well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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