CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 (edited) You know sometimes when you invite a guest onto a TV interview show and they're just too cautious to say anything very interesting or provocative ... well there's no danger of that happening if our Stephen is involved. [video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo] I bet that went down well with all those Catholics ... Edited 1 February, 2015 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Take note MLG! That is how to construct an atheist diatribe!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Lol the look on the Presenter's face! Edging back, like he's anticipating a vengeful thunderbolt from the Heavens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 1 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Lol the look on the Presenter's face! Edging back, like he's anticipating a vengeful thunderbolt from the Heavens! I was thinking more along the lines of 'slapped in the face with a wet Haddock'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 That is fantastic, Fry is a genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllyd Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Superb. Witty, funny and inarguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 "And you think you'll get in, with that?" What a plum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 If you think Fry is good in that clip, watch him and Christopher Hitchens rip apart Ann Widdecombe and a bishop... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrIHw0fZNOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 It is inarguable really. I think clips like this should be shown to children in all schools, churches, Mosques, synogog... sinnergogue... sin... Jewish thingies. It should be shown under the pretence, "we've told you what we believe, this is an alternative view point. Make your own mind up before choosing a faith." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 I watched as much as I could take of the 2 hour "clip" MLG put up, and the main thing I learned, is that it's a mistake to let members of the public ask questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Found it pretty boring. Boil away the sickly confection of synonoyms and it's the same old "if there was a god, why is there so much injustice in the world". Indisputable stuff on its own terms. But doesn't really deal with the more prosaic and profane reasons why millions are religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 0:00 / 1:59:10 nah, you're alright thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 nah, you're alright thanks. This. If i wanted to waste 2 hours on something I already know, I would go to bed at the same time as Mrs Goat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Found it pretty boring. Boil away the sickly confection of synonoyms and it's the same old "if there was a god, why is there so much injustice in the world". Indisputable stuff on its own terms. But doesn't really deal with the more prosaic and profane reasons why millions are religious. There could well be a God but he isn't necessarily a good guy. I remain open minded, agnostic if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerBadger Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Fantastically forthright and succinct, well played Mr Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 This. If i wanted to waste 2 hours on something I already know, I would go to bed at the same time as Mrs Goat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Doesn't really deal with the more prosaic and profane reasons why millions are religious. The reason there are billions of religious people is because early in human history we didn't understand the world we lived in so came up with answers. The easy answer was to fill gaps in knowledge with "God did it". Those gaps have been closed with science, leaving God with less and less space to occupy as humans understood more about the universe. Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! Why isn't everyone of the same religion? Using Jesus as your messenger is the action of an inept God. If he really wanted to get his message to everyone there are surely better ways than sacrificing himself... to himself... to forgive himself. That is just bizarre! There have been thousands of recorded religions in human history, not all of them can be right... but they can all be wrong. In is indisputable that mankind has created its own Gods, the religious should ask themselves what makes yours right over all the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 The reason there are billions of religious people is because early in human history we didn't understand the world we lived in so came up with answers. The easy answer was to fill gaps in knowledge with "God did it". Those gaps have been closed with science, leaving God with less and less space to occupy as humans understood more about the universe. Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! Why isn't everyone of the same religion? Using Jesus as your messenger is the action of an inept God. If he really wanted to get his message to everyone there are surely better ways than sacrificing himself... to himself... to forgive himself. That is just bizarre! There have been thousands of recorded religions in human history, not all of them can be right... but they can all be wrong. In is indisputable that mankind has created its own Gods, the religious should ask themselves what makes yours right over all the others? That only works on the assumption that all religions and everyone of their followers took religions scripts and teaching literally. Which isn't true even close to being true. Again, saying the only reason anyone believes in god or follows a religion is because they are 'stuck in the bronze age' is both ignorant and massively disrespectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 That only works on the assumption that all religions and everyone of their followers took religions scripts and teaching literally. Which isn't true even close to being true. Again, saying the only reason anyone believes in god or follows a religion is because they are 'stuck in the bronze age' is both ignorant and massively disrespectful. Where is this forums like button, the only thing worse than an religious evangelist is an atheist evangelist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 The reason there are billions of religious people is because early in human history we didn't understand the world we lived in so came up with answers. The easy answer was to fill gaps in knowledge with "God did it". Those gaps have been closed with science, leaving God with less and less space to occupy as humans understood more about the universe. Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! Why isn't everyone of the same religion? Using Jesus as your messenger is the action of an inept God. If he really wanted to get his message to everyone there are surely better ways than sacrificing himself... to himself... to forgive himself. That is just bizarre! There have been thousands of recorded religions in human history, not all of them can be right... but they can all be wrong. In is indisputable that mankind has created its own Gods, the religious should ask themselves what makes yours right over all the others? If you are supposed to represent enlightened atheist humanity, sign me up at the nearest fu cking mosque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Where is this forums like button, the only thing worse than an religious evangelist is an atheist evangelist! What definition of evangelist are you using? If you are supposed to represent enlightened atheist humanity, sign me up at the nearest fu cking mosque. When have I ever claimed to represent all atheists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 That only works on the assumption that all religions and everyone of their followers took religions scripts and teaching literally. Which isn't true even close to being true. If you don't take it literally then you are cherry picking... if you are cherry picking then you are the one making the moral decisions... that makes God of the scripture obsolete as you are the one creating the moral code. Again, saying the only reason anyone believes in god or follows a religion is because they are 'stuck in the bronze age' is both ignorant and massively disrespectful. When did I say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Calling those who pray for others child abusers was pretty bad TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 (edited) Calling those who pray for others child abusers was pretty bad TBH. You twisted that to a bizarre level, I actually said... Parents have refused treatment for preventable illnesses as they wanted to pray instead, as a result children have died, I see nothing wrong with calling that a form of child abuse. I'd also call indoctrinating children to believe in prayer when there is no good evidence to support it working any better than chance is a form of child abuse. Many people when hearing the term "child abuse" think it means something Jimmy Saville like, it can take many other forms. The religiously instructed genital mutilation of children is child abuse. Do you think it isn't? If not... why not? Edited 1 February, 2015 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Parents have refused treatment for preventable illnesses as they wanted to pray instead, as a result children have died, I see nothing wrong with calling that a form of child abuse. I'd also call indoctrinating children to believe in prayer when there is no good evidence to support it working any better than chance is a form of child abuse. Many people when hearing the term "child abuse" think it means something Jimmy Saville like, it can take many other forms. The religiously instructed genital mutilation of children is child abuse. Let's remember you started ranting about that stuff on the back of someone harmlessly saying "our thoughts and prayers are with" someone else. A totally disproportionate reaction by someone with very little grasp of basic humanity. You're a forum legend and no mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Let's remember you started ranting about that stuff on the back of someone harmlessly saying "our thoughts and prayers are with" someone else. A totally disproportionate reaction by someone with very little grasp of basic humanity. You're a forum legend and no mistake. What does that have to do with the points I've made in this thread? I stand by thinking that an organisation fighting for equality should remain neutral in its media output when it comes to religion. Individuals within the organisation are free to express they will pray, but it shouldn't be the public view of the organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 The reason there are billions of religious people is because early in human history we didn't understand the world we lived in so came up with answers. The easy answer was to fill gaps in knowledge with "God did it". Those gaps have been closed with science, leaving God with less and less space to occupy as humans understood more about the universe. Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! Again, saying the only reason anyone believes in god or follows a religion is because they are 'stuck in the bronze age' is both ignorant and massively disrespectful. When did I say that? You're very good at pretending you didn't say things. So are people who follow religion "stuck in the Bronze age" (your words) or not? Yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 What does that have to do with the points I've made in this thread? I stand by thinking that an organisation fighting for equality should remain neutral in its media output when it comes to religion. Individuals within the organisation are free to express they will pray, but it shouldn't be the public view of the organisation. As Hypo said, on that thread you called people who pray for others child abusers, and you carry the theme on on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! Agree, it's no coincidence that the most religious parts of the world are the most backward. I expect in a couple of hundred years time, if we still exist, mankind will be looking back at today's religions and laughing their nuts off. You have to be a f*cking idiot to believe all those fairy tales, let alone make life choices based on them. If anyone is offended by that then I don't give a sh!t. All through my school life I had to put up with your f*cked up stories and stupid songs being rammed down my thoat. Jesus, Mary, Joseph and his donkey can all f*ck off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 You're very good at pretending you didn't say things. So are people who follow religion "stuck in the Bronze age" (your words) or not? Yes or no? Can you really not see the difference between what KelvinsRightGlove claimed I said and what I actually said? What I actually said... Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! vs What was claimed I said... The only reason anyone believes in god or follows a religion is because they are 'stuck in the bronze age' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 1 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Found it pretty boring. Boil away the sickly confection of synonoyms and it's the same old "if there was a god, why is there so much injustice in the world". Indisputable stuff on its own terms. But doesn't really deal with the more prosaic and profane reasons why millions are religious. You're quite right of course, the religiously inclined may say that God gave us 'free will' and that he works in 'mysterious ways' that are far beyond the comprehension of we mere mortals. Many seem to be dissatisfied with that answer. I wonder if Stephen Fry is familiar with the writing of the science fiction author Harlan Ellison, because the great man once came up with his own answer to this age old question: 'The Deathbird Stories' - Harlan Ellison 1974. Trente, the 'Paingod': "I know now that pain is the most important thing in all the universe. Greater than survival, greater than love, greater even than the beauty it brings about. For without pain, there can be no pleasure. Without sadness, there can be no happiness. Without misery there can be no beauty. And without these, life is endless, hopeless, doomed and damned" Ethos: "Adult, you have become an adult" In other words suffering is God's 'gift' to the world, for without it life can have no meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Can you really not see the difference between what KelvinsRightGlove claimed I said and what I actually said? What I actually said... Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! vs What was claimed I said... The only reason anyone believes in god or follows a religion is because they are 'stuck in the bronze age' Do you include people who use the phrase "our thoughts and prayers are with you" as being in the Bronze Age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Do you include people who use the phrase "our thoughts and prayers are with you" as being in the Bronze Age? Bronze age superstitions included praying to a God when there is no good evidence prayer is any more successful than chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Bronze age superstitions included praying to a God when there is no good evidence prayer is any more successful than chance. Is that a yes then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 (edited) Stephen Fry is familiar with the writing of the science fiction author Harlan Ellison, because the great man once came up with his own answer to this age old question: 'The Deathbird Stories' - Harlan Ellison 1974. In other words suffering is God's 'gift' to the world, for without it life can have no meaning. That's the sort of bullsh!t that would be right at home in the bible. "without pain, there can be no pleasure" err, yes there can, quite easily. Millions around the world experience pleasure without being in pain. In fact if you are constantly in pain you probably won't feel any pleasure so ""with pain, there can be no pleasure" would surely be more correct. The rest of that statement is obviously nonsense. Misery and beauty are not even opposites - might as well say "without Micky Mouse can be no custard". Made up boll*x for gullible idiots or the desperate to believe. Edited 1 February, 2015 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 You're being a bit literal there, if you don't mind me saying, aintforever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Absolutely brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 1 February, 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February, 2015 That's the sort of bullsh!t that would be right at home in the bible. "without pain, there can be no pleasure" err, yes there can, quite easily. Millions around the world experience pleasure without being in pain. In fact if you are constantly in pain you probably won't feel any pleasure so ""with pain, there can be no pleasure" would surely be more correct. The rest of that statement is obviously nonsense. Misery and beauty are not even opposites - might as well say "without Micky Mouse can be no custard" Are you always in this state of constant rage, or is it just because we lost today? If you can manage to calm down and use your brain for once, I think what Ellison was trying to say is that without some context what would a idea such as 'pleasure' really mean anyway? For instance, if you have never experienced sickness then what pleasure is there to be had in good health, for how could you possibly appreciate it never having known any other state? On a more profound level it is perhaps our mortality that makes life the precious thing it is because only the 'pain' of knowing that life is so very precarious gives it real meaning. In the story once 'Paingod' comprehends just how crucial he is to the universe he overcomes his moment of doubt and redoubles his efforts - dispatching a melancholy thought to some barely conscious crystalline rock creature hanging on to life at the edge of the galaxy, or unsupportable suffering to a sublimely beautiful life form that inhabits the very centre of the universe. 'tis a good book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 The reason there are billions of religious people is because early in human history we didn't understand the world we lived in so came up with answers. The easy answer was to fill gaps in knowledge with "God did it". Those gaps have been closed with science, leaving God with less and less space to occupy as humans understood more about the universe. Many people in the 21st century are still stuck in the Bronze age! Why isn't everyone of the same religion? Using Jesus as your messenger is the action of an inept God. If he really wanted to get his message to everyone there are surely better ways than sacrificing himself... to himself... to forgive himself. That is just bizarre! There have been thousands of recorded religions in human history, not all of them can be right... but they can all be wrong. In is indisputable that mankind has created its own Gods, the religious should ask themselves what makes yours right over all the others? I don't think much can be gleaned by analysing the persistence of religion through a 'rational' lens. And I don't think it necessarily, in terms of ultimate motivations for belief and practice, overlaps with the role of science in society. I think religion much more than anything provides a grounding for lots of individuals, and a way to feel involved and be within the community. I reckon part of the decline of religion in terms of practice is down to modernity and the much more sparse, diverse and distrubted way in which people live today meaning churches can't be the pillar at the centre of the village that they once were. If religion wants to survive the 21st century, then it has to change and we see some of that in the churches which are growing fastest; 'strong' strands like mormonism, and then also churches which partake in the kind of set-up seen at so called 'mega-churches'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 Agree, it's no coincidence that the most religious parts of the world are the most backward. I expect in a couple of hundred years time, if we still exist, mankind will be looking back at today's religions and laughing their nuts off. You have to be a f*cking idiot to believe all those fairy tales, let alone make life choices based on them. If anyone is offended by that then I don't give a sh!t. All through my school life I had to put up with your f*cked up stories and stupid songs being rammed down my thoat. Jesus, Mary, Joseph and his donkey can all f*ck off. You are going to hell hell hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 1 February, 2015 Share Posted 1 February, 2015 I people choose to follow some sort of moral code based on a religious model, then that's their business and good luck to them. But really, in this day and age, I'm surprised if any sensible person truly believes in all that supernatural, hell, heaven, all seeing gods, power of prayer and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 You are going to hell hell hell. Can I come to? Aintforever, may be 'direct' in his argument, but cant disagree with his POV. I always find the question of the 'need for faith' or how faith provides 'so much comfort for so many people' an interesting one... I am sure it does and those who have it would be lost without it.... which begs the question of what is missing from their lives that it it needs to be filled with made up rubbish about devine beings - and cruel, spiteful devine beings at that? Given that there are so many gods, faiths and religions to chose from, are we not ALL atheists really? Afterall, the devout Christians, Jews and Muslims (ironically all worshiping the same God) pour hate on those who worship false 'idols' - so what do they think of Hinduism, Budism, etc? Olden days would have seen some right religious wars.... oh wait... these still on going? So even the devout don't believe or have faith in all gods - so are they not also atheists? I just happen to believe in one less than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 Are you always in this state of constant rage, or is it just because we lost today? If you can manage to calm down and use your brain for once, I think what Ellison was trying to say is that without some context what would a idea such as 'pleasure' really mean anyway? For instance, if you have never experienced sickness then what pleasure is there to be had in good health, for how could you possibly appreciate it never having known any other state? On a more profound level it is perhaps our mortality that makes life the precious thing it is because only the 'pain' of knowing that life is so very precarious gives it real meaning. In the story once 'Paingod' comprehends just how crucial he is to the universe he overcomes his moment of doubt and redoubles his efforts - dispatching a melancholy thought to some barely conscious crystalline rock creature hanging on to life at the edge of the galaxy, or unsupportable suffering to a sublimely beautiful life form that inhabits the very centre of the universe. 'tis a good book. I understand the concept, it's not a hard one. Of course if you have years of hardship you appreciate the good times more, as a Southampton fan that is not hard to grasp. But I'm not sure where giving kids ebola fits in with that idea. I'm with Stephen Fry on this one, if God thinks he has to inflict all these evils on humanity so that we can appreciate pleasure he is a maniac. I also think you can easily appreciate being healthy without ever being ill. I can appreciate my wealth and I have never been poor - so again you are talking nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 You are going to hell hell hell. That's another thing about Christianity I don't get. God is supposed to be Mr love and compassion, yet if you don't subscribe to his particular religion when you die you burn in hell. Nice! Burning people because they don't share your beliefs is up there with Hitler and Jihadi John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 That's another thing about Christianity I don't get. God is supposed to be Mr love and compassion, yet if you don't subscribe to his particular religion when you die you burn in hell. Nice! Burning people because they don't share your beliefs is up there with Hitler and Jihadi John. Don't think the big G is big on irony... big on handing out suffering and then washing his hands saying its free will... uhm yes the free will of babies born with abnormalities or as Mr Fry states, 'bone cancer in children' .... its a pretty crazy concept to begin with, but what is even crazier is that so many seem to believe is such utter nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 It's about time Hitler got mentioned in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 It's about time Hitler got mentioned in this thread. Well in the case above it is pretty apt - I thought God is meant to have said 'vengance is mine', yet there seem plenty of religious 'nations' happy to dish a bit out here and now for good measure (or hedging their bets as God does not seem to be answering any prayers of late and striking down the unbelievers... like he used to in the olden days) - and the promise of fire and burning in hell does seem scarily similar to the hideous genocide offered up by the despot mentioned above.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 [video=youtube_share;1Run1jpZvS4] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 2 February, 2015 Share Posted 2 February, 2015 If you think Fry is good in that clip, watch him and Christopher Hitchens rip apart Ann Widdecombe and a bishop... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrIHw0fZNOA A bit of bishop-bashing is always a firm favourite on SaintsWeb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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