buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 Got hammered in Athens once and ended up in a strip bar. Ended up splashing £300 in imaginary Greek notes. Woke up with only a few imaginary coins in my wallet but didn't regret a thing! Pap would have run up a tab and refused to pay at the end claiming it was all a sham. The bouncers would have held him down whilst the girls explained M1 money supply to him using stilettos ti llustrate their points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 If only the STDs were imaginary No touching bear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 (edited) I'd rather not pap, that doesn't sound like the sort of video I'd want to watch! I prefer to figure things out using purely my Brain! Way I figure money was invented is say you wanted £20, let's say you were buying anal beads or something, you would come to me begging for £20 because I'm much more wealthy than you, and then I'd say, hold on how do I know you're going to pay it back! And you'd say ok here, and you'd draw a banknote saying you owe me £20, thus inventing money, and then you give it to me, and then... wait. That can't be right! You just gave me £20 and you're still no closer to getting your anal beads! Here's the key difference between:- a) lending from the Bear to buy anal beads b) lending from the Bank to buy anal beads. Were you and I to come to such an arrangement, you would probably take the £20 quid out of your pocket and give it to me for my impending anal beads purchase. You would be £20 worse off, and if I failed to pay the bead bond back, you'd always be £20 worse off. If, however, I decided to lend £20 from the bank for anal beads, they'd have the power to simply magic that moolah into existence. It wouldn't come from a pocket, and if I failed to pay it back, they'd only be down their imaginary losses, if the government decided not to pay them back out of the tax take. If I pay it back, they get to say "hey, it was there all along. Did you enjoy your anal beads?". Some question the rather arbitrary nature of who gets to create money and for what purpose, especially when people are going to food banks and putting their kids into state care, and it isn't just that impoverished group that earns between half a mil to a mil a year. Edited 26 January, 2015 by pap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 Surely if you cut them adrift, then they have absolutely no incentive to repay their debt. The greek people have been massively shafted by the EU, the Germans, their own governments - now they have said enough. Given the levels of hardship and poverty that a lot ordinary Greeks are experiencing, I cannot blame them one bit. The situation isn't only in Greece, Some other EU countries are suffering, too. Busloads of Rumanians are flooding into Sweden, only to sit begging on the streets. Greece has allowed their people to work shorter hours, pension themselves whilst still in their 50's, and set a ridiculously low rate of tax (which most people just ignored). Now (we / they) have seen the result. I genuinely feel sorry for them, but the average Swede, who pays a 50% tax rate shows little sympathy. The question is now, will the EU continue to throw money into the " Black hole of the Greek economy " - knowing that it won't be re-paid? - ( that's a reported statement from their new government.) If the Greeks try to look elsewhere for their money where will they go?. Russia has it own problems but would surely trade extra finance for a naval base there, I'm sure, Another alternative might be to borrow from the Middle East, but what do they have ....to offer the Arabs? The average Greek holiday resort doesn't sound like an attractive proposition for them. Sadly, this may only be the start. Italy has been papering over the cracks in its domestic economy since before Berlasconi's time, and it looks no better now. There's no quick fix to this problem. Cue- the next Finance Crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 So has anyone noticed that Greece's new finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, was an economist at Valve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 If only the STDs were imaginary They are...They're all in your head Bearsy...just like Syphilis. (Seriously though, banks have been pumping imaginary money into the economy for years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 So has anyone noticed that Greece's new finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, was an economist at Valve? I did not, but thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure how this man with "relevant experience" of being an economist at a runaway economic success story is going to reconcile himself with government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 I did not, but thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure how this man with "relevant experience" of being an economist at a runaway economic success story is going to reconcile himself with government Oh, it's not an attack. It seems outside of Valve he is an economist of some note. It just made me chuckle, and thought it might also amuse some other gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 Oh, it's not an attack. It seems outside of Valve he is an economist of some note. It just made me chuckle, and thought it might also amuse some other gamers. Didn't think it was, skip. Just makes me laugh that it takes a hard-left coalition to deliver someone who actually knows wtf they are talking about in economics. I'm looking forward to seeing what he reckons once fully immersed in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 Didn't think it was, skip. Just makes me laugh that it takes a hard-left coalition to deliver someone who actually knows wtf they are talking about in economics. I'm looking forward to seeing what he reckons once fully immersed in power. Oh aye, ministerial decisions have forever baffled me. Have a trained Doctor in your cabinet, put them in charge of defence. Whilst putting Lansley in charge of health. Odd. ...Should say I'm far from an expert on Greek politics, so have no idea if the ministerial selection process is vaguely similar. This was just one example that came to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 This is the best explanation of the Euro crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Share Posted 26 January, 2015 This is the best explanation of the Euro crisis. Nice, although a broader examination of EU policy might have seen the pub landlord start a ruck with some Russian mushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 26 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 26 January, 2015 On that note, when do you suppose the UK will pay back the 1.48 Trillion it has borrowed? Well if we want to have low interest rates and a stable economy we have to keep paying back as required. I was aGainst the Labour government borrowing to pay for what the nation could not afford, also Blair and brown taking away the Boe's power of keeping theCity in line. They gave them self regulation and that is when the pigs are at the trough. IF we could go back to Saintsforever there would be posts where myself and others warned about the borrowing and 100% mortgages etc BTW where is Clapham Saint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 The Daily Mash is bang on GREEK voters have defied expectation by choosing not to be beaten like cringing dogs for the next five years. Offered the choice between another half-decade of soaring unemployment and plummeting household incomes or a bit of a change, the Greek electorate has stunned Europe by making the wrong decision. http://bit.ly/1zgwF8Q Sorry for shortened link. Original had a swear in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This might just be me being simple, but I still don't understand what the 'EU' will do about it. Greece: "We're not paying the money back" EU: "We'll repossess your, er, well you can't belong to our club, ner ner ner ner ner" Greece: "LOLZ" It's mental that it's got this far, but I'm bordering on the side of saying good luck to Greece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 They haven't finished borrowing money. They still need more. Where do you think they are going to get it from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 Well if we want to have low interest rates and a stable economy we have to keep paying back as required. Er, we are not paying it back we are still borrowing - £13.1 billion last month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This might just be me being simple, but I still don't understand what the 'EU' will do about it. Greece: "We're not paying the money back" EU: "We'll repossess your, er, well you can't belong to our club, ner ner ner ner ner" Greece: "LOLZ" It's mental that it's got this far, but I'm bordering on the side of saying good luck to Greece! This is where the game of chess with The EU ( basically the Germans) begins. The problem the Germans have is that if they allow a " Greek haircut" where will it end. What is the incentive for the Portuguese, Spanish or French to continue with fiscal discipline, how will the Irish feel as they've basically knuckled down and have shown real restraint in the teeth of savage German imposed austerity . The balancing act the Greek lefties have is their population want to remain in the EU and Euro, they can not risk being chucked out as that'll be electoral suicide. A typical EUSSR fudge is needed, so that both sides save face. However , if its an obvious fudge the money markets will punish the Euro and the fiscally responsible countries within it will start paying more for their borrowing. Its a mess because ideology was put before practicality. Tight fiscal rules for joining the Euro were bent, broken and ignored and Germany turned a blind eye because " the project" was the only thing that mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 Er, we are not paying it back we are still borrowing - £13.1 billion last month. This government has borrowed more in the past 5 years than the previous Labour administration did in its 13 year tenure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This government has borrowed more in the past 5 years than the previous Labour administration did in its 13 year tenure I borrowed a shedload when I bought my last house. Turned out to be a bloody good investment. The small overdraft that I had, to squander on sex and drugs and rock and roll, on the other hand, didn't turn out so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This might just be me being simple, but I still don't understand what the 'EU' will do about it. Greece: "We're not paying the money back" EU: "We'll repossess your, er, well you can't belong to our club, ner ner ner ner ner" Greece: "LOLZ" It's mental that it's got this far, but I'm bordering on the side of saying good luck to Greece! They can refuse to trade with Greece. The fact that Russia is now going into recession shows the power they have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 They can refuse to trade with Greece. The fact that Russia is now going into recession shows the power they have Although I do think they should take their chances and leave the Euro. It can't get too much worse for them really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 The small overdraft that I had, to squander on sex and drugs and rock and roll, on the other hand, didn't turn out so well. "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." George Best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 Although I do think they should take their chances and leave the Euro. It can't get too much worse for them really They are expected to balance the books, or nearly, in 2015 and the economy is growing again. If they wipe out some of the debt they'll be doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 They are expected to balance the books, or nearly, in 2015 and the economy is growing again. If they wipe out some of the debt they'll be doing well. And living standards are irrelevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 (edited) And living standards are irrelevant? Im not making a value judgement on anything. Its a simple fact that after six years of recession they have, or are about to, turn the corner. http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-expects-primary-budget-surplus-for-2015-1416567297 Edited 27 January, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 Im not making a value judgement on anything. Its a simple fact that after six years of recession they have, or are about to, turn the corner. http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-expects-primary-budget-surplus-for-2015-1416567297 OK well I stand by my original point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This government has borrowed more in the past 5 years than the previous Labour administration did in its 13 year tenure you can't help yourself can you. I'm sure someone on here has succinctly written down what happens to total borrowing when an incoming government is handed the largest deficit in history by the outgoing government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This is a useful graphic. Trends are as important as headline figures. https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=ds22a34krhq5p_&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&idim=country:el:it:es&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:el:it:es:uk&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 It does make me laugh that 2,000 years after Jesus supposedly cleansed the temple, money lenders are the only things most people believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This is a useful graphic. Trends are as important as headline figures. https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=ds22a34krhq5p_&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&idim=country:el:it:es&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:el:it:es:uk&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false Greece and Italy are truly fecked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simo Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 I quite like their kebabs tbf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 Greece and Italy are truly fecked, until they see sense and get out of the euro. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 January, 2015 Share Posted 27 January, 2015 This is getting fun now. A government has been formed and sworn in. Syriza are resolved to negotiating only with governments, not with the troika. Negotiations are already underway, according to Tsirpis. Of course, the big fear from the likes of the ECB and the EU is that Greece will be successfully in getting some of that artificially created cash quashed out of existence, that an IOU or two might be lost down the back of a bank vault. If that were to happen, all of these other countries that were forced to put their citizens under condition of austerity might ask for some of their pretend cash to be unimagined. Austerity has never been shown to work as a means to grow an economy. I know it looks like the EU has all the IOUs, I mean cards, but the alternative is for Greece to leave the EU, or worse, fall under the influence of another regional super-bloc, not that there's one about (cough, Putin's Eurasion Union, cough!). Greece has a better hand than would initially appear. A long-time member state, and the cradle of democracy's earliest forms, decides to do the offs? It'd be a symbolic disaster for the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Austerity has never been shown to work as a means to grow an economy. I know it looks like the EU has all the IOUs, I mean cards, but the alternative is for Greece to leave the EU, or worse, fall under the influence of another regional super-bloc, not that there's one about (cough, Putin's Eurasion Union, cough!). Greece has a better hand than would initially appear. A long-time member state, and the cradle of democracy's earliest forms, decides to do the offs? It'd be a symbolic disaster for the EU. Called it. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/07/alexis-tsipras-flies-to-moscow-speculation-greek-bailout-vladimir-putin Tsirpas off to Moscow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Called it. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/07/alexis-tsipras-flies-to-moscow-speculation-greek-bailout-vladimir-putin Tsirpas off to Moscow. I wonder if (and it's nothing more than that, I don't know anywhere near enough about the intricacies) if this is a bit of poker playing on the Greeks part? Especially coming off the back of this move http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/06/greece-puts-figure-of-279bn-on-claim-for-german-reparations What you reckon Pap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Hate to interrupt a really serious conversation about Greece, but ... Where were you last night KRG?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Hate to interrupt a really serious conversation about Greece, but ... Where were you last night KRG?! Not here Lou, on the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 I wonder if (and it's nothing more than that, I don't know anywhere near enough about the intricacies) if this is a bit of poker playing on the Greeks part? Especially coming off the back of this move http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/06/greece-puts-figure-of-279bn-on-claim-for-german-reparations What you reckon Pap? I think they've known how many cards they've held from day one. The reparations stuff is just bad PR for Germany. I'd say that from a Western perspective, Greece getting sweet deals out of Russia is far more problematic. At a time when the EU is aggressively pushing east, there's one state, and ancient and culturally important state, that might head the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Called it. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/07/alexis-tsipras-flies-to-moscow-speculation-greek-bailout-vladimir-putin Tsirpas off to Moscow. Bit like Cyprus now being a virtual colony of Russia. Bit if a med play ground for the ruskies now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Bit like Cyprus now being a virtual colony of Russia. Bit if a med play ground for the ruskies now Croatia & Montenegro well on their way also. On a tangent, they are both beautiful parts of the world. They've got decent taste at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Bit like Cyprus now being a virtual colony of Russia. Bit if a med play ground for the ruskies now Croatia & Montenegro well on their way also. On a tangent, they are both beautiful parts of the world. They've got decent taste at least. I think the thing a lot of people forget is no matter what the US and UK might tell us, we still live in a multi-polar world. That's why I always found the OP's title so amusing. Well, that and the fact that people wanted us to bin one of the most important regions of the world (of all time) from the EU empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Love that 70 years later they are asking Germany for reparations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Love that 70 years later they are asking Germany for reparations! On another forum somebody asked what would happen after they've blown the German reparations money - go after the Turks and Byzantines? (if they've left a forwarding address). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 8 April, 2015 Share Posted 8 April, 2015 Maybe we should send a bill to the Italians, Danes and French Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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