OldNick Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts. They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts. They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back Nope. Commercial money supply is a load of arbitrary old bollócks, something that few on here have ever worked out. Greece should be celebrated for having the courage to say no to these c**ts.
aintforever Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts. They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back We are all going to have to blow off these debts at some point anyway, might as well start now.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 And just like that, we've an anti-austerity coalition running in austerity EU. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jan/26/greece-election-syriza-victory-alexis-tsipras-coalition-talks-live-updates Deal struck with the right-wing Greek Independents.
scotty Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 (edited) I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts. They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back They should never have been in the sort of debt they're in, because they should never have joined (or been allowed/persuaded to join) the eurozone in the first place. The whole thing is a farce. Why were Italy allowed into it? Greece, Italy and others always just used to add a few zeros to the drachma or lira every decade or so, and lenders knew that would happen and adjusted their lending rates accordingly. It didn't affect anybody else. I have very little but contempt for Blair and Brown, but the two things I'll credit Brown with were a: depoliticising interest rates, and b: keeping us out of the eurozone, despite blairs fervent wish to enter it. imo, probably the two most important economic decisions since the war. Edited 26 January, 2015 by scotty
Batman Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 (edited) The EU and the Euro are just a f-ing farce good luck to greece I say Edited 26 January, 2015 by Batman
badgerx16 Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 According to the BBC there were 2 things that those in the know said would "never happen" in the Euro zone during the current financial problems - Quantative Easing and Greece voting in a far left Government. Now they've got both.
scotty Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 According to the BBC there were 2 things that those in the know said would "never happen" in the Euro zone during the current financial problems - Quantative Easing and Greece voting in a far left Government. Now they've got both. There's also been a general perception that no eurozone members will ever be allowed to leave it. Bring it on.
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I have very little but contempt for Brown.....the two most important economic decisions since the war. Bit of a non sequiteur isn't it?
OldNick Posted 26 January, 2015 Author Posted 26 January, 2015 Good luck to them. lend me 10 grand so that i can have a good time..I'll pay you back i promise
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Here's Marina Prentoulis, speaking for Syriza at a Left Unity meeting at King's College. Good background on what has driven today's poll results.
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Its nonsense. The crisis didn't start in 2010, its started decades before with successive governments promising ever more spending and not collecting the tax to pay for it. 2010 was simply when the smack drip got cut off and the bailiffs turned up.
CB Saint Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts. They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back Surely if you cut them adrift, then they have absolutely no incentive to repay their debt. The greek people have been massively shafted by the EU, the Germans, their own governments - now they have said enough. Given the levels of hardship and poverty that a lot ordinary greeks are experiencing, I cannot blame them one bit.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Its nonsense. The crisis didn't start in 2010, its started decades before with successive governments promising ever more spending and not collecting the tax to pay for it. 2010 was simply when the smack drip got cut off and the bailiffs turned up. Yeah, plenty of people feel really bad for those vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Yeah but on the plus side Germany have had a nice cheap currency to help with their exports of well made cars and reasonably priced zupermarkets. It's not all been doom and gloom Pap.
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Yeah but on the plus side Germany have had a nice cheap currency to help with their exports of well made cars and reasonably priced zupermarkets. It's not all been doom and gloom Pap. Yeah but are they happy? They only got paid in pretend money dontchaknow?
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Yeah, plenty of people feel really bad for those vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued. Stick to coding Pap. Once things get wider than you and your house things get a little hazy for you.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Yeah but on the plus side Germany have had a nice cheap currency to help with their exports of well made cars and reasonably priced zupermarkets. It's not all been doom and gloom Pap. Q: Why do Germans walk about like they own the place on European holidays? A: Because they fúcking do I'm here all week.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Stick to coding Pap. Once things get wider than you and your house things get a little hazy for you. Quiet, muchtooginge, otherwise people'll think you're stalking again.
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Quiet, muchtooginge, otherwise people'll think you're stalking again. Go on then. List the top 10 "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued". I'll give you a little pointer. Ive been to Mark Carney's house. He aint rich.
benjii Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Tech college, please. Oh, that's fair enough then. In fact, congratulations.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Go on then. List the top 10 "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued". I'll give you a little pointer. Ive been to Mark Carney's house. He aint rich. Let me stop you right there, sir. Greece had its democracy suspended and austerity imposed by troika when central bankers looked like they wouldn't get their money back. Italy had a temporary technocratic government installed to do the same thing. The job of both those governments was to take things from the people to satisfy the demands of the central bankers. It didn't work. Greece owes more than it ever did, and has paid more as a nation than it ever should have. As for pretend money, all money is created out of debt, or more accurately, promises to pay. Greece didn't take money from anyone else when borrowing. That money was just invented when Greece promised to pay it back. Weaving these points into a coherent whole, basic needs were denied to an entire country in a failed bid to get it to pay back money that never really existed, just to validate broken financial and political systems. Is that enslavement? I'd argue so. Any situation imposed by a third party in which someone has no choice to comply can be described as such, especially if the usual measures for resolution have been suspended. The Greek people had no choice on whether they accepted the foreign-imposed austerity. They do now, and thank f**k for that. Hopefully, they'll be the first to comprehensively decry this corrupt financial system you so slavishly protect.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Oh, that's fair enough then. In fact, congratulations. Aw sweet, but I'm actually a graduate with top honours. Mickey Mouse Uni though, so bear that in mind.
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Let me stop you right there, sir. Greece had its democracy suspended and austerity imposed by troika when central bankers looked like they wouldn't get their money back. Italy had a temporary technocratic government installed to do the same thing. The job of both those governments was to take things from the people to satisfy the demands of the central bankers. It didn't work. Greece owes more than it ever did, and has paid more as a nation than it ever should have. As for pretend money, all money is created out of debt, or more accurately, promises to pay. Greece didn't take money from anyone else when borrowing. That money was just invented when Greece promised to pay it back. Weaving these points into a coherent whole, basic needs were denied to an entire country in a failed bid to get it to pay back money that never really existed, just to validate broken financial and political systems. Is that enslavement? I'd argue so. Any situation imposed by a third party in which someone has no choice to comply can be described as such, especially if the usual measures for resolution have been suspended. The Greek people had no choice on whether they accepted the foreign-imposed austerity. They do now, and thank f**k for that. Hopefully, they'll be the first to comprehensively decry this corrupt financial system you so slavishly protect. Very nice. So back to the question and your line "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued". Who are they and how much money do they have? Surely you can answer that given you made the claim so boldly?
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Very nice. So back to the question and your line "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued". Who are they and how much money do they have? Surely you can answer that given you made the claim so boldly? Oh dear. I seem to (once again) stumbled into a brilliant trap of your (and my own) making. You've got me. I don't have the personal assets (or indeed, the names) of those central bankers that get to issue pretend money for free and then charge it at a rate of interest. Is it not a lucrative game, then? How much cash does your pal Mark Carney have?
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I don't have the personal assets (or indeed, the names) of those central bankers that get to issue pretend money for free and then charge it at a rate of interest. Is it not a lucrative game, then? How much cash does your pal Mark Carney have? So you made a statement with no foundation to it. Thats the point. Most of your stuff is just, like Benji said, like the product of a six former, either made up or plain wrong. I dont know Mark Carney, I've simply met his wife a couple of times. The Government had to agree to rent him a house in London otherwise he couldn't afford to take the job, given London house prices.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 So you made a statement with no foundation to it. Thats the point. Most of your stuff is just, like Benji said, like the product of a six former, either made up or plain wrong. I dont know Mark Carney, I've simply met his wife a couple of times. The Government had to agree to rent him a house in London otherwise he couldn't afford to take the job, given London house prices. I'm sorry, Tim. I was proceeding from the logical assumption that if you got to create money from nothing, then lend it out at a rate of interest, then you'd probably be in the right place to get vastly wealthy. As for lacking detail, the point could be chucked back your way. You claimed that the Governor of the Bank of England is not rich based on a couple of conversations with his wife, who claimed that they were unable to afford the 11K a month rent the UK taxpayer pays for his pad. How many other "not rich" people do you know with an 11K p.m. rent bill?
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 I'm sorry, Tim. I was proceeding from the logical assumption that if you got to create money from nothing, then lend it out at a rate of interest, then you'd probably be in the right place to get vastly wealthy. As for lacking detail, the point could be chucked back your way. You claimed that the Governor of the Bank of England is not rich based on a couple of conversations with his wife, who claimed that they were unable to afford the 11K a month rent the UK taxpayer pays for his pad. How many other "not rich" people do you know with an 11K p.m. rent bill? Theres that lack of clarity of thought again. 'He has the power to create money from nothing, therefore it must be his money, therefore he must be vastly wealthy'. Those logic gaps is what makes your theories and views so risible. Carney is a government employee on flat rate salary - a very good and high salary compared to most of us but a salary which is a fraction of what he could earn in the private investment banks. Living in a house commensurate with your public position is normal. Living at No10 Downing Street didnt mean John Major or Gordon Brown were rich. Its not tricky stuff.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Theres that lack of clarity of thought again. 'He has the power to create money from nothing, therefore it must be his money, therefore he must be vastly wealthy'. Those logic gaps is what makes your theories and views so risible. Carney is a government employee on flat rate salary - a very good and high salary compared to most of us but a salary which is a fraction of what he could earn in the private investment banks. Living in a house commensurate with your public position is normal. Living at No10 Downing Street didnt mean John Major or Gordon Brown were rich. Its not tricky stuff. Ah, we're almost there. So you accept that central bankers are able to create money from nothing and lend at a rate of interest? That's good. You argue that the Governor of the Bank of England "ain't rich" because of some self-justifying waffle his missus span when she was trying to justify their obscene living allowance in central London (£600K - £845K p.a. doesn't cut it, apparently). That's cute, especially since he seems to have had a glittering career in various financial institutions prior to taking up this "low-paid" job in London. You were talking clarity of thought?
Lord Duckhunter Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 The Greeks should have devalued their currency and that would have kick started their economy. They couldn't do so because it wouldnt be good for the German and other economies.EXACTLY what people like Bill Cash and John Redwood said would happen, has happened. You can not have monetary union without fiscal union , and don't give me any pony about Gordon Brown. Brown was for us joining when the time was right, he was not against the union in principle, he was for it for Greece, for Cyprus , for Spain, even for the UK, just not at that particular time. As Mark Littlewood head of the IEA ( and a saints fan BTW) said today, " you can vote for parties that don't believe in gravity, but that won't stop you getting hit on the head" . like Hollande these lefties will have to face reality and conform to the EU/German straight jacket, they will still have EU imposed austerity. They may get a loosening of the terms of their bail out, but will not be allowed to default or leave the Euro. The worst thing that can happen to the politburo in Brussels is the Greeks leaving the Euro and starting a recovery, because the rest of the club med will follow. They won't be allowed to default whilst in the EUSSR because it'll mean the Germans paying more for their borrowing. Who ever thought Germany and Greece could form a currency union was bonkers. Yet the same loons who did will be the same ones frightening us to stay in this political union. Remember that next time you hear Mandleson, Clarke, Blair or Clegg lecturing us on membership.
aintforever Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 lend me 10 grand so that i can have a good time..I'll pay you back i promise On that note, when do you suppose the UK will pay back the 1.48 Trillion it has borrowed?
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 (edited) Thats your inability to follow a line of thinking right there, Five posts ago central bankers were vastly rich, creating money out of nothing and bankrupting countries for personal gain. Now its a government employee on a flat salary of £480,000. Where's the blood?? Edited 26 January, 2015 by buctootim
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Thats your inability to follow a line of thinking right there, Five posts ago central bankers were vastly rich, creating money out of nothing for personal gain. Now its some bloke on a flat salary of £480,000. Where's the blood?? It's not even double chickenfeed, is it? When you're swallowing his wife's bullshít next time, please check that he has had a warm meal recently. Living on something like 20x the average salary (with no pension!) can't be easy
Tokyo-Saint Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Why did you date him Tim and did he at least put out for making you pick up the tab with some pony about him not being rich?
Bearsy Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 We only know he told his Wife that he weren't Rich and tbf that is probably Good Policy
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 We only know he told his Wife that he weren't Rich and tbf that is probably Good Policy She goes everywhere on a bike. She must think he's really skint tbf though with four daughters at private school / uni he probably he is.
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 She goes everywhere on a bike. She must think he's really skint tbf though with four daughters at private school / uni he probably he is.
Bearsy Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Has anyone been to Greece and can you confirm their money is really Imaginary? How does it work i.e. if I was buying a Greece newspaper in a Greece newsagent, do I give them an imaginary note and then they give me imaginary change, and how do you keep track that they have given you the right amount of change back so I can give some of it to the Greece tramp sat outside, but not all of it because later I might want to buy a Chocolate Bar?
pap Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Has anyone been to Greece and can you confirm their money is really Imaginary? How does it work i.e. if I was buying a Greece newspaper in a Greece newsagent, do I give them an imaginary note and then they give me imaginary change, and how do you keep track that they have given you the right amount of change back so I can give some of it to the Greece tramp sat outside, but not all of it because later I might want to buy a Chocolate Bar? Such a trip is not necessary, Bear. Seek out the "Money as debt" video, which explains how money is created. I posted it here awhile ago.
View From The Top Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 A fellow poster who work in The City said to me about 5 years ago, just at the start of the crash, that if you couldn't get rich (working in The City) in the next 5 years then you were in the wrong job. Plenty have.
buctootim Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 A fellow poster who work in The City said to me about 5 years ago, just at the start of the crash, that if you couldn't get rich (working in The City) in the next 5 years then you were in the wrong job. Plenty have. For sure. Hedgies particularly get rich off of volatility. Steady predictable incremental growth is a nightmare for them.
Bearsy Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Such a trip is not necessary, Bear. Seek out the "Money as debt" video, which explains how money is created. I posted it here awhile ago. I'd rather not pap, that doesn't sound like the sort of video I'd want to watch! I prefer to figure things out using purely my Brain! Way I figure money was invented is say you wanted £20, let's say you were buying anal beads or something, you would come to me begging for £20 because I'm much more wealthy than you, and then I'd say, hold on how do I know you're going to pay it back! And you'd say ok here, and you'd draw a banknote saying you owe me £20, thus inventing money, and then you give it to me, and then... wait. That can't be right! You just gave me £20 and you're still no closer to getting your anal beads!
Tokyo-Saint Posted 26 January, 2015 Posted 26 January, 2015 Has anyone been to Greece and can you confirm their money is really Imaginary? How does it work i.e. if I was buying a Greece newspaper in a Greece newsagent, do I give them an imaginary note and then they give me imaginary change, and how do you keep track that they have given you the right amount of change back so I can give some of it to the Greece tramp sat outside, but not all of it because later I might want to buy a Chocolate Bar? Got hammered in Athens once and ended up in a strip bar. Ended up splashing £300 in imaginary Greek notes. Woke up with only a few imaginary coins in my wallet but didn't regret a thing!
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