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Should Greece be cut adrift?

OldNick

By OldNick,
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pap

Posted
Posted
I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts.

They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back

 

Nope. Commercial money supply is a load of arbitrary old bollócks, something that few on here have ever worked out.

 

Greece should be celebrated for having the courage to say no to these c**ts.

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scotty

scotty

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Posted (edited)
I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts.

They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back

 

They should never have been in the sort of debt they're in, because they should never have joined (or been allowed/persuaded to join) the eurozone in the first place. The whole thing is a farce. Why were Italy allowed into it? Greece, Italy and others always just used to add a few zeros to the drachma or lira every decade or so, and lenders knew that would happen and adjusted their lending rates accordingly. It didn't affect anybody else.

 

I have very little but contempt for Blair and Brown, but the two things I'll credit Brown with were a: depoliticising interest rates, and b: keeping us out of the eurozone, despite blairs fervent wish to enter it. imo, probably the two most important economic decisions since the war.

Edited by scotty
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scotty

scotty

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Posted
According to the BBC there were 2 things that those in the know said would "never happen" in the Euro zone during the current financial problems - Quantative Easing and Greece voting in a far left Government. Now they've got both.

 

There's also been a general perception that no eurozone members will ever be allowed to leave it.

 

Bring it on.

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CB Saint

CB Saint

Posted
Posted
I think they should be,I dislike people who run away from their debts.

They enjoyed the fruits of borrowing but now want to welch from paying it back

 

Surely if you cut them adrift, then they have absolutely no incentive to repay their debt.

 

The greek people have been massively shafted by the EU, the Germans, their own governments - now they have said enough. Given the levels of hardship and poverty that a lot ordinary greeks are experiencing, I cannot blame them one bit.

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Its nonsense. The crisis didn't start in 2010, its started decades before with successive governments promising ever more spending and not collecting the tax to pay for it. 2010 was simply when the smack drip got cut off and the bailiffs turned up.

 

Yeah, plenty of people feel really bad for those vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued.

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buctootim

buctootim

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Yeah but on the plus side Germany have had a nice cheap currency to help with their exports of well made cars and reasonably priced zupermarkets. It's not all been doom and gloom Pap.

 

Yeah but are they happy? They only got paid in pretend money dontchaknow?

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Yeah but on the plus side Germany have had a nice cheap currency to help with their exports of well made cars and reasonably priced zupermarkets. It's not all been doom and gloom Pap.

 

Q: Why do Germans walk about like they own the place on European holidays?

A: Because they fúcking do

 

I'm here all week.

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buctootim

buctootim

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Posted
Quiet, muchtooginge, otherwise people'll think you're stalking again.

 

Go on then. List the top 10 "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued".

 

I'll give you a little pointer. Ive been to Mark Carney's house. He aint rich.

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pap

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Go on then. List the top 10 "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued".

 

I'll give you a little pointer. Ive been to Mark Carney's house. He aint rich.

 

Let me stop you right there, sir.

 

Greece had its democracy suspended and austerity imposed by troika when central bankers looked like they wouldn't get their money back. Italy had a temporary technocratic government installed to do the same thing. The job of both those governments was to take things from the people to satisfy the demands of the central bankers. It didn't work. Greece owes more than it ever did, and has paid more as a nation than it ever should have.

 

As for pretend money, all money is created out of debt, or more accurately, promises to pay. Greece didn't take money from anyone else when borrowing. That money was just invented when Greece promised to pay it back.

 

Weaving these points into a coherent whole, basic needs were denied to an entire country in a failed bid to get it to pay back money that never really existed, just to validate broken financial and political systems. Is that enslavement? I'd argue so. Any situation imposed by a third party in which someone has no choice to comply can be described as such, especially if the usual measures for resolution have been suspended. The Greek people had no choice on whether they accepted the foreign-imposed austerity. They do now, and thank f**k for that. Hopefully, they'll be the first to comprehensively decry this corrupt financial system you so slavishly protect.

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buctootim

buctootim

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Posted
Let me stop you right there, sir.

 

Greece had its democracy suspended and austerity imposed by troika when central bankers looked like they wouldn't get their money back. Italy had a temporary technocratic government installed to do the same thing. The job of both those governments was to take things from the people to satisfy the demands of the central bankers. It didn't work. Greece owes more than it ever did, and has paid more as a nation than it ever should have.

 

As for pretend money, all money is created out of debt, or more accurately, promises to pay. Greece didn't take money from anyone else when borrowing. That money was just invented when Greece promised to pay it back.

 

Weaving these points into a coherent whole, basic needs were denied to an entire country in a failed bid to get it to pay back money that never really existed, just to validate broken financial and political systems. Is that enslavement? I'd argue so. Any situation imposed by a third party in which someone has no choice to comply can be described as such, especially if the usual measures for resolution have been suspended. The Greek people had no choice on whether they accepted the foreign-imposed austerity. They do now, and thank f**k for that. Hopefully, they'll be the first to comprehensively decry this corrupt financial system you so slavishly protect.

 

Very nice. So back to the question and your line "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued". Who are they and how much money do they have? Surely you can answer that given you made the claim so boldly?

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Very nice. So back to the question and your line "vastly wealthy central bankers that tried to enslave nations over the pretend money it issued". Who are they and how much money do they have? Surely you can answer that given you made the claim so boldly?

 

Oh dear. I seem to (once again) stumbled into a brilliant trap of your (and my own) making.

 

You've got me. I don't have the personal assets (or indeed, the names) of those central bankers that get to issue pretend money for free and then charge it at a rate of interest. Is it not a lucrative game, then? How much cash does your pal Mark Carney have?

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buctootim

buctootim

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I don't have the personal assets (or indeed, the names) of those central bankers that get to issue pretend money for free and then charge it at a rate of interest. Is it not a lucrative game, then? How much cash does your pal Mark Carney have?

 

So you made a statement with no foundation to it. Thats the point. Most of your stuff is just, like Benji said, like the product of a six former, either made up or plain wrong.

 

I dont know Mark Carney, I've simply met his wife a couple of times. The Government had to agree to rent him a house in London otherwise he couldn't afford to take the job, given London house prices.

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pap

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So you made a statement with no foundation to it. Thats the point. Most of your stuff is just, like Benji said, like the product of a six former, either made up or plain wrong.

 

I dont know Mark Carney, I've simply met his wife a couple of times. The Government had to agree to rent him a house in London otherwise he couldn't afford to take the job, given London house prices.

 

I'm sorry, Tim. I was proceeding from the logical assumption that if you got to create money from nothing, then lend it out at a rate of interest, then you'd probably be in the right place to get vastly wealthy.

 

As for lacking detail, the point could be chucked back your way. You claimed that the Governor of the Bank of England is not rich based on a couple of conversations with his wife, who claimed that they were unable to afford the 11K a month rent the UK taxpayer pays for his pad.

 

How many other "not rich" people do you know with an 11K p.m. rent bill?

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buctootim

buctootim

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I'm sorry, Tim. I was proceeding from the logical assumption that if you got to create money from nothing, then lend it out at a rate of interest, then you'd probably be in the right place to get vastly wealthy.

 

As for lacking detail, the point could be chucked back your way. You claimed that the Governor of the Bank of England is not rich based on a couple of conversations with his wife, who claimed that they were unable to afford the 11K a month rent the UK taxpayer pays for his pad.

 

How many other "not rich" people do you know with an 11K p.m. rent bill?

 

Theres that lack of clarity of thought again. 'He has the power to create money from nothing, therefore it must be his money, therefore he must be vastly wealthy'. Those logic gaps is what makes your theories and views so risible.

 

Carney is a government employee on flat rate salary - a very good and high salary compared to most of us but a salary which is a fraction of what he could earn in the private investment banks. Living in a house commensurate with your public position is normal. Living at No10 Downing Street didnt mean John Major or Gordon Brown were rich. Its not tricky stuff.

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pap

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Theres that lack of clarity of thought again. 'He has the power to create money from nothing, therefore it must be his money, therefore he must be vastly wealthy'. Those logic gaps is what makes your theories and views so risible.

 

Carney is a government employee on flat rate salary - a very good and high salary compared to most of us but a salary which is a fraction of what he could earn in the private investment banks. Living in a house commensurate with your public position is normal. Living at No10 Downing Street didnt mean John Major or Gordon Brown were rich. Its not tricky stuff.

 

Ah, we're almost there. So you accept that central bankers are able to create money from nothing and lend at a rate of interest? That's good.

 

You argue that the Governor of the Bank of England "ain't rich" because of some self-justifying waffle his missus span when she was trying to justify their obscene living allowance in central London (£600K - £845K p.a. doesn't cut it, apparently). That's cute, especially since he seems to have had a glittering career in various financial institutions prior to taking up this "low-paid" job in London.

 

You were talking clarity of thought? :)

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted

The Greeks should have devalued their currency and that would have kick started their economy. They couldn't do so because it wouldnt be good for the German and other economies.EXACTLY what people like Bill Cash and John Redwood said would happen, has happened. You can not have monetary union without fiscal union , and don't give me any pony about Gordon Brown. Brown was for us joining when the time was right, he was not against the union in principle, he was for it for Greece, for Cyprus , for Spain, even for the UK, just not at that particular time.

 

As Mark Littlewood head of the IEA ( and a saints fan BTW) said today, " you can vote for parties that don't believe in gravity, but that won't stop you getting hit on the head" . like Hollande these lefties will have to face reality and conform to the EU/German straight jacket, they will still have EU imposed austerity. They may get a loosening of the terms of their bail out, but will not be allowed to default or leave the Euro. The worst thing that can happen to the politburo in Brussels is the Greeks leaving the Euro and starting a recovery, because the rest of the club med will follow. They won't be allowed to default whilst in the EUSSR because it'll mean the Germans paying more for their borrowing.

 

Who ever thought Germany and Greece could form a currency union was bonkers. Yet the same loons who did will be the same ones frightening us to stay in this political union. Remember that next time you hear Mandleson, Clarke, Blair or Clegg lecturing us on membership.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thats your inability to follow a line of thinking right there, Five posts ago central bankers were vastly rich, creating money out of nothing and bankrupting countries for personal gain. Now its a government employee on a flat salary of £480,000. Where's the blood??

Edited by buctootim
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pap

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Posted
Thats your inability to follow a line of thinking right there, Five posts ago central bankers were vastly rich, creating money out of nothing for personal gain. Now its some bloke on a flat salary of £480,000. Where's the blood??

 

It's not even double chickenfeed, is it?

 

When you're swallowing his wife's bullshít next time, please check that he has had a warm meal recently.

 

Living on something like 20x the average salary (with no pension!) can't be easy :)

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Bearsy

Bearsy

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Posted

Has anyone been to Greece and can you confirm their money is really Imaginary? How does it work i.e. if I was buying a Greece newspaper in a Greece newsagent, do I give them an imaginary note and then they give me imaginary change, and how do you keep track that they have given you the right amount of change back so I can give some of it to the Greece tramp sat outside, but not all of it because later I might want to buy a Chocolate Bar?

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pap

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Has anyone been to Greece and can you confirm their money is really Imaginary? How does it work i.e. if I was buying a Greece newspaper in a Greece newsagent, do I give them an imaginary note and then they give me imaginary change, and how do you keep track that they have given you the right amount of change back so I can give some of it to the Greece tramp sat outside, but not all of it because later I might want to buy a Chocolate Bar?

 

Such a trip is not necessary, Bear. Seek out the "Money as debt" video, which explains how money is created. I posted it here awhile ago.

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buctootim

buctootim

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Posted
A fellow poster who work in The City said to me about 5 years ago, just at the start of the crash, that if you couldn't get rich (working in The City) in the next 5 years then you were in the wrong job. Plenty have.

 

For sure. Hedgies particularly get rich off of volatility. Steady predictable incremental growth is a nightmare for them.

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Bearsy

Bearsy

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Such a trip is not necessary, Bear. Seek out the "Money as debt" video, which explains how money is created. I posted it here awhile ago.

 

I'd rather not pap, that doesn't sound like the sort of video I'd want to watch! I prefer to figure things out using purely my Brain! Way I figure money was invented is say you wanted £20, let's say you were buying anal beads or something, you would come to me begging for £20 because I'm much more wealthy than you, and then I'd say, hold on how do I know you're going to pay it back! And you'd say ok here, and you'd draw a banknote saying you owe me £20, thus inventing money, and then you give it to me, and then... wait. That can't be right! You just gave me £20 and you're still no closer to getting your anal beads!

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Tokyo-Saint

Tokyo-Saint

Posted
Posted
Has anyone been to Greece and can you confirm their money is really Imaginary? How does it work i.e. if I was buying a Greece newspaper in a Greece newsagent, do I give them an imaginary note and then they give me imaginary change, and how do you keep track that they have given you the right amount of change back so I can give some of it to the Greece tramp sat outside, but not all of it because later I might want to buy a Chocolate Bar?

 

Got hammered in Athens once and ended up in a strip bar. Ended up splashing £300 in imaginary Greek notes. Woke up with only a few imaginary coins in my wallet but didn't regret a thing!

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