Pressure at the Top

[Webby]

As Saints fans we are used to the odd relegation battle over the years and the pressure down there is immense, but now, being in the top 4, I'm finding it even more tense!

 

I'm not sure why, but, I think that at the bottom you only need to win/draw now and again to crawl out of the drop zone while others around you drop points. At the top, others around you are invariably winning, so when you lose/draw, you can lose ground quite quickly.

 

I think we were quite fortunate in our losing run that we had so many points before that and were in 2nd place, but if we lost 5 now, that'd be it, no top 4.

 

Thoughts?

[andoru]

Yeah, I get that. As Liverpool found last season, you can't afford to slip up even once at the top end of the table. If you do, you lose ground on the teams above, and give up ground to those right below. And as you say, those teams win more often than they lose. We were lucky to have been 12 points ahead of Spurs and Liverpool before we went on our bad run. They've pretty much caught us up now. All we need to do is match them though and our position is safe, but that brings its own pressure, as you point out. It's almost like tournament football in a way, where you have to be on your game in every game, or you're out.

[StratfordSaint]

I think that's spot on. I so want us to achieve something this year that I feel the pressure too. But am lapping it all up this season. Very very happy!

[Rut]

Huddersfield.

[ben05]

Just about to say that, it's starting to feel like that league 1 promotion battle. Huddersfield now being replace by United, Spurs & Arsenal. How times have change!

[Batman]

Just about to say that, it's starting to feel like that league 1 promotion battle. Huddersfield now being replace by United, Spurs & Arsenal. How times have change!

 

difference being, we blew the league away with money then and we had a miles better squad. we have a pretty weak squad compared to those chasing us now

Edited 18 January, 2015 by Batman

[DuncanRG]

We learnt that lesson in the Championship as well. That's why title-winning teams are so impressive - the ability to keep winning no matter the circumstances.

[Roo1976]

You know your right in a way i was thinking we would be lucky to get a point at Newcastle given our injury issues to key players and yes i suppose winning was a bonus ,but more than that is the expectation or being able to cope with the heady heights of being there or thereabouts on the cusp of something no one would ever dream possible but always hoping for.

I think it would be absolutely amazing given our circumstances at the beginning of the campaign to even hope we would be in this position, now we are and the so called expert pundits are eating humble pie theres always the thought of us tripping up against so called minor teams given our lofty place IE Palace ,Hull,Leicester you get what i mean those that we would normally do battle for beating us these games in a way are more different now were in a different position so again what you were saying it adds more pressure to the team.But id rather the season was like this than normal.

[SaintTex]

Yeah, I get that. As Liverpool found last season, you can't afford to slip up even once at the top end of the table. If you do, you lose ground on the teams above, and give up ground to those right below.

This. Every game in which points are dropped are going to be magnified.

 

Arsenal, Man U, West Ham, Liverpool, Tottenham all won this week. The 3 points against Newcastle Saturday was huge.

 

I can understand losing a match to the likes of those team (bolded above) in the coming weeks, but from this point until the end of the season, we need to secure 3 points against every team currently at 9th place and below. Those are games we certainly will be favoured in. That is 11 wins (33 points) and then it doesn't matter how we do in the remaining games.

 

Let's look at those 11 games I am talking about:

 

09 Swansea (H)

10 Stoke (A)

 

12 CP (H)

13 Everton (A)

14 Villa (H)

15 W. Brom (A)

16 Sunderland (A)

17 Burnley (H)

18 Hull (H)

19 QPR (A)

20 Leicester (A)

 

Those matches can and should, with the way we are playing and the squad we have, all be 3 points.

 

42 + 33 (11 wins) = 75 (certainly Top 4)

 

Hell, call the Everton (A) and Stoke (A) games losses.. that is still

 

42 + 27 (9 wins) = 69 (probably top 4)

 

But all this is BS. The motto for the team should be "win the next game"

[Dalek2003]

Relegation pressure is immense, being at the top is a breeze ! Wherever we finish is a bonus to staying up.

[so22saint]

We should consider 5th as the same as 18th mentally.

[Dark Munster]

difference being, we blew the league away with money then and we had a miles better squad. we have a pretty weak squad compared to those chasing us now

Yes and no. Our midfield and defence is second to none IMHO. We do lack depth in centre forward and goalkeeping, the 2 positions I still hope the club will strengthen this window.

[explorer saint]

Relegation situation more pressure without a doubt . This at the moment is nice pressure as it's all unexpected when you are at the bottom it sure ain't nice

[Batman]

Yes and no. Our midfield and defence is second to none IMHO. We do lack depth in centre forward and goalkeeping, the 2 positions I still hope the club will strengthen this window.

 

But we had the best everything in our promotion season in league 1.

[Patrick Bateman]

As Saints fans we are used to the odd relegation battle over the years and the pressure down there is immense, but now, being in the top 4, I'm finding it even more tense!

 

I'm not sure why, but, I think that at the bottom you only need to win/draw now and again to crawl out of the drop zone while others around you drop points. At the top, others around you are invariably winning, so when you lose/draw, you can lose ground quite quickly.

 

I think we were quite fortunate in our losing run that we had so many points before that and were in 2nd place, but if we lost 5 now, that'd be it, no top 4.

 

Thoughts?

 

I get this. All the teams at the top keep winning, all the f**king time, it's relentless, you need to win every week, else you drop.

 

Not like at the bottom when you're praying for a win against someone, anyone, then you get one and suddenly all your rivals have lost and you've crept back above them. There's no let up at the top, you keep winning otherwise you become midtable again.

[diggers]

Yeah, I get that. As Liverpool found last season, you can't afford to slip up even once at the top end of the table. If you do, you lose ground on the teams above, and give up ground to those right below. And as you say, those teams win more often than they lose. We were lucky to have been 12 points ahead of Spurs and Liverpool before we went on our bad run. They've pretty much caught us up now. All we need to do is match them though and our position is safe, but that brings its own pressure, as you point out. It's almost like tournament football in a way, where you have to be on your game in every game, or you're out.

 

i think it was more a Gerard slip if I remember correctly

[Coxford_lou]

I get this. All the teams at the top keep winning, all the f**king time, it's relentless, you need to win every week, else you drop.

 

Not like at the bottom when you're praying for a win against someone, anyone, then you get one and suddenly all your rivals have lost and you've crept back above them. There's no let up at the top, you keep winning otherwise you become midtable again.

 

We will undoubtedly have another dip in form at some point. How well we end up will be dependent on our karackter and how well we bounce back.

 

I do think we have a better chance of holding on because our success so far is based on tactics and good organishashon, rather than form of one or two world class players. But our weakness will be silly laps of concentration and daft c*ck ups.

 

I've got faith in the Koeman though !

[Patrick Bateman]

We will undoubtedly have another dip in form at some point. How well we end up will be dependent on our karackter and how well we bounce back.

 

I do think we have a better chance of holding on because our success so far is based on tactics and good organishashon, rather than form of one or two world class players. But our weakness will be silly laps of concentration and daft c*ck ups.

 

I've got faith in the Koeman though !

 

Another dip in form?

 

********. We're closing the gap on Chelsea now ......

[eelpie]

No pressure

 

Manchester City, we're gunning for you!

[eelpie]

You know your right in a way i was thinking we would be lucky to get a point at Newcastle given our injury issues to key players and yes i suppose winning was a bonus ,but more than that is the expectation or being able to cope with the heady heights of being there or thereabouts on the cusp of something no one would ever dream possible but always hoping for.

I think it would be absolutely amazing given our circumstances at the beginning of the campaign to even hope we would be in this position, now we are and the so called expert pundits are eating humble pie theres always the thought of us tripping up against so called minor teams given our lofty place IE Palace ,Hull,Leicester you get what i mean those that we would normally do battle for beating us these games in a way are more different now were in a different position so again what you were saying it adds more pressure to the team.But id rather the season was like this than normal.

 

The 'experts' have stopped eating humble pie. They're hiding their embarrassment by ignoring us

[BlakeySFC]

If we do get Top 4 it's going to probably be a bit like the L1 promotion season when all the teams below us kept winning so we had to do the same to stay 2nd.

 

Only way to keep the teams below us at bay is to keep winning, if we win against Swansea a week after next and City lose up at Chelsea we'll be two points off them, no idea who City have the weekend after that but we've got QPR away...

[andoru]

Staying at the top is about so much more than simply being good, it's about being good consistently. I liken it to winning the World Cup or a Grand Slam in tennis. There's not much to tell between the best national teams in one-off matches, but going all the way through to the final requires total concentration. One mistake, and your out of the tournament. Same with Grand Slams. Andy Murray is as good as Federer, Nadal and Djokovic on his day, but is less able to hit that level in match after match after match, hence why he's won fewer titles. If Saints are to make top four, they need to maintain high levels of fitness and focus. Nobody can afford to take their eye off the ball for even a second, literally.

[SaintBobby]

I'm not sure it's like the L1/Championship promotion push tbh. I don't think there's any way that we can catch either Chelsea or Man City. So 3rd is our highest vaguely realistic target, I think. Plus, there's a ton of teams just behind us. All of whom are pretty good and all of whom have more money and deeper squads than us. I'm reckoning we'll end around sixth, which would still be a great achievement.

[SaintBobby]

Staying at the top is about so much more than simply being good, it's about being good consistently. I liken it to winning the World Cup or a Grand Slam in tennis. There's not much to tell between the best national teams in one-off matches, but going all the way through to the final requires total concentration. One mistake, and your out of the tournament. Same with Grand Slams. Andy Murray is as good as Federer, Nadal and Djokovic on his day, but is less able to hit that level in match after match after match, hence why he's won fewer titles. If Saints are to make top four, they need to maintain high levels of fitness and focus. Nobody can afford to take their eye off the ball for even a second, literally.

Nah. The analogy doesn't work and isn't even true. "One mistake and your (sic) out of the tournament"? No. Spain 0 Switzerland 1 (2010)? West Germany 0 East Germany 1 (1974). Italy failing to beat any of Poland, Peru and Cameroon in the first group stage (1982). And these aren't just one-off mistakes (an example of that would be Italy missing a penalty in the 1982 World Cup final), they are dire results. In tennis, no one has ever won a major tournament without making several mistakes along the way. I don't really know what you mean by insisting none of our players take their eye off the ball for even a second "literally". If all of our players decide to look at the ball for every second they are on the pitch, we will lose a lot of games. I assume you meant "metaphorically".

[Redslo]

Nah. The analogy doesn't work and isn't even true. "One mistake and your (sic) out of the tournament"? No. Spain 0 Switzerland 1 (2010)? West Germany 0 East Germany 1 (1974). Italy failing to beat any of Poland, Peru and Cameroon in the first group stage (1982). And these aren't just one-off mistakes (an example of that would be Italy missing a penalty in the 1982 World Cup final), they are dire results. In tennis, no one has ever won a major tournament without making several mistakes along the way. I don't really know what you mean by insisting none of our players take their eye off the ball for even a second "literally". If all of our players decide to look at the ball for every second they are on the pitch, we will lose a lot of games. I assume you meant "metaphorically".

 

His use of the term "literally" was itself a metaphor.

[Professor]

If we beat Swansea at the SMS on 1 Feb, we will either close 3 points on Man City or Chelsea, or two points on both of them, as they play each other the evening before. When we are away to QPR the following week on 7 Feb if we win, we will move further ahead of either Tottenham or Arsenal, or both, as they play each other that day. Then in the midweek 10/11 Feb the same applies to Tottenham and Liverpool when we are at home to West Ham. That looks like our next toughest game but if we do win these next three, third place will look marginally firmer than it is now and with the run-in further reduced. Man U are away to West Ham during that period (8 Feb), which could also be a help.

[Sour Mash]

This is a very different Saints side to what we've seen before, even previously when we've had very good sides, we've usually been susceptible to a late goal here, a soft away defeat there. I can't ever remember anything as close to such a clinical, professional, focused efficient set-up as we've got now.

[JackanorySFC]

Good thread by the OP, I was talking about this before the game up in Newcastle to some fellow worriers. The pressure is immense, especially when playing later in the day like on Saturday when we've seen positive results for Spurs, United, Chelsea and Liverpool and know any dropped points will mean ground made up by our rivals. That, IMO, made our win even better and demonstrated real character in our squad. The pressure is completely different to the relegation fights we've had before, up here it's bl***y relentless!

 

As Prof also points out above, the most important weekends will be those where our competition plays one another. 6 pointers there. We need to take it game by game, 3 points from Swansea then move on to the next game.

[Webby]

I do think there's a difference in mentality between the top and the bottom. It might seem obvious to say that but when you're at the top, you're there cos you're good and if you want to stay there you have to be good every week. No let up.

 

At the bottom you just need something every now and then, a big performance, a late equaliser, a lucky goal. Something. Anything that will help you get a result say 1 in 3 games. At the top that's just not good enough. You have to believe in your ability and stick to what got you there. That's another thing, you may change your style of play at the bottom, it gets desperate, panic sets in. You can't let that set in at the top, it has to be total belief and 100% concentration to get the job done.

 

Koeman has been there and done it and his winning mentality and coolness under pressure will help the players.

[Minty]

I guess the key difference is that if we don't quite manage to stay in the Top 4, it's not a disastrous situation that could see the very existence of the club threatened due to the financial implications, like relegation pressure.

 

But it undoubtedly does feel similar in many ways - and just as when two fellow relegation candidates play each other, one below, one above, I followed Man City v Arsenal yesterday convincing myself of the reasons why whatever result occurred was good, even though I wasn't really sure what was best!

 

Deep down though, I am loving this 'pressure', however I have to be honest that I am already thinking ahead to next season - that if we can add a little more variation and depth to our squad then we can be a little more consistent and a little more dangerous in attack, then we won't be relying on our defence so much and can consolidate whatever position we get this year.

 

I predicted 12th before the season began, so frankly it's all a bonus.

[Patrick Bateman]

I guess the key difference is that if we don't quite manage to stay in the Top 4, it's not a disastrous situation that could see the very existence of the club threatened due to the financial implications, like relegation pressure.

 

But it undoubtedly does feel similar in many ways - and just as when two fellow relegation candidates play each other, one below, one above, I followed Man City v Arsenal yesterday convincing myself of the reasons why whatever result occurred was good, even though I wasn't really sure what was best!

 

Deep down though, I am loving this 'pressure', however I have to be honest that I am already thinking ahead to next season - that if we can add a little more variation and depth to our squad then we can be a little more consistent and a little more dangerous in attack, then we won't be relying on our defence so much and can consolidate whatever position we get this year.

 

I predicted 12th before the season began, so frankly it's all a bonus.

 

Easy, a draw surely? We gain 2 points on City (we're not going to overtake them, but it's amusing all the same) and move 2 points further away from Arsenal. Preferably a 0-0 draw at that.

 

Alas, it was too much to ask bloody 'triffic 'arry to beat Man Utd on Saturday though. Div.

[Minty]

Easy, a draw surely? We gain 2 points on City (we're not going to overtake them, but it's amusing all the same) and move 2 points further away from Arsenal. Preferably a 0-0 draw at that.

 

Alas, it was too much to ask bloody 'triffic 'arry to beat Man Utd on Saturday though. Div.

 

Well yes, that was my initial thought, but then you start to over think things... is this improved Arsenal likely to continue, and put us under pressure? Or will their own inconsistency come back to haunt them. In which case them winning keeps City closer to us and gives Arsenal false hope, before they drop off again. And surely this is just a blip for Man City, they'll storm away from us again in the next few games. Or actually will they themselves crumble, so this gives us the chance to catch them... but then again maybe this defeat will be the kick up the arse they need to get going again!?!? Argh!

 

As for 'arry and QPR... I had vague hopes but watching the game it was clear that the only thing that might've stopped Man Utd winning was their own incompetence. QPR are shockingly sh!te, and 'arry just reaffirms that by coaching even more sh!te into them.

 

How he still has a job at the top level is beyond me.

[Cosmic]

Staying at the top is about so much more than simply being good, it's about being good consistently. I liken it to winning the World Cup or a Grand Slam in tennis. There's not much to tell between the best national teams in one-off matches, but going all the way through to the final requires total concentration. One mistake, and your out of the tournament. Same with Grand Slams. Andy Murray is as good as Federer, Nadal and Djokovic on his day, but is less able to hit that level in match after match after match, hence why he's won fewer titles. If Saints are to make top four, they need to maintain high levels of fitness and focus. Nobody can afford to take their eye off the ball for even a second, literally.

 

You sound like Robbie Savage.

[Turkish]

But we had the best everything in our promotion season in league 1.

 

Are we still flat track bullies Brett?

[saintalan]

We should consider 5th as the same as 18th mentally.

 

...or 4th, 5th, 6th as the bottom 3:)

[Whitey Grandad]

Good thread by the OP, I was talking about this before the game up in Newcastle to some fellow worriers. The pressure is immense, especially when playing later in the day like on Saturday when we've seen positive results for Spurs, United, Chelsea and Liverpool and know any dropped points will mean ground made up by our rivals. That, IMO, made our win even better and demonstrated real character in our squad. The pressure is completely different to the relegation fights we've had before, up here it's bl***y relentless!

 

As Prof also points out above, the most important weekends will be those where our competition plays one another. 6 pointers there. We need to take it game by game, 3 points from Swansea then move on to the next game.

We've been in this situation before, it's just that it was in League 1 and the Championship. I don't know which is more stressful.

[andoru]

Nah. The analogy doesn't work and isn't even true. "One mistake and your (sic) out of the tournament"? No. Spain 0 Switzerland 1 (2010)? West Germany 0 East Germany 1 (1974). Italy failing to beat any of Poland, Peru and Cameroon in the first group stage (1982). And these aren't just one-off mistakes (an example of that would be Italy missing a penalty in the 1982 World Cup final), they are dire results. In tennis, no one has ever won a major tournament without making several mistakes along the way. I don't really know what you mean by insisting none of our players take their eye off the ball for even a second "literally". If all of our players decide to look at the ball for every second they are on the pitch, we will lose a lot of games. I assume you meant "metaphorically".

 

1. I was referring more to the knockout stages, although teams generally can't risk dropping points in the groups either. One game is usually the most a team can get away with losing. Then, in the later rounds, teams have to hit the heights against everyone they play. There is little margin for error when you have only one chance to get things right. In the battle for Europe, teams have little margin for error too.

 

2. I was talking about consistency of performance in the context of tennis. A player has to be at the top of their game in every game, or they’ll get knocked out. They can afford the odd double fault, but not a poor overall performance. The whole point of elimination competitions is that they test endurance and focus as the pressure increases with every passing round. Wild card players might earn the occasional scalp against the ranked players, but they can’t generally sustain that level over several matches, so they rarely progress very far (Ivanisovic was an outlier). In a round-robin league system you can get away with the odd bad game, but not so in any tournament where having a bad day results in going home early.

 

3. 'Keep your eye on the ball' is an idiom meaning ‘to pay attention’. It does not mean to literally be looking at a ball. Moreover, it’s an idiom used in non-sporting contexts. I have to keep my eye on the ball in my job, but since there are no balls in my office, I don’t do so literally. Football involves a ball. Football players are therefore literally watching a ball when they are paying attention, although I appreciate that they don’t track it constantly for 90 minutes and will blink sometimes as well.

 

Hope that helps.

[70's Mike]

I suppose i am the exact opposite to the OP

I have not enjoyed a season like this for years NO pressure, the threat of relegation gone in January nearly unheard of in our top flight history

[Lets B Avenue]

I suppose i am the exact opposite to the OP

I have not enjoyed a season like this for years NO pressure, the threat of relegation gone in January nearly unheard of in our top flight history

 

Ditto. This is for me, the best since 1983/84. Hell! I might even go and rejoin the Concorde Club again.

[sadoldgit]

The pressure is on the likes of Chelsea, City, United and Arsenal. They spend fortunes and are expected to win things. At the moment we are a novelty act and no one expects us to be there come the end of the season so wherever we finish in the top half is okay. The real pressure though is down the bottom. As we know, getting relegated is a nightmare and that is where no one wants to be.

[Saint_Jonny]

Huddersfield.

 

Spot on. They matched us game for game for what felt like forever!

[Bucks Saint]

The pressure is on the likes of Chelsea, City, United and Arsenal. They spend fortunes and are expected to win things. At the moment we are a novelty act and no one expects us to be there come the end of the season so wherever we finish in the top half is okay. The real pressure though is down the bottom. As we know, getting relegated is a nightmare and that is where no one wants to be.

 

Spot on. I think there is much less pressure on us, only what the team/staff put on themselves. Expectations from everyone else vary from "no, they will fall away for sure" to "yes, they have a chance but the big teams will surely spend in January and catch them up, plus injuries will kill them". Good

[mulletsaint]

On the whole I agree with what most of you are saying, dropping points at this end of the table can have a more dramatic effect than when you're at the bottom. However, what seems to have been missed is that there are always shock results for the big clubs, especially in the run in when teams are fighting to stay up. It may be my imagination but in recent seasons this seems to have increased due to the top teams becoming more inconsistent.

 

Last season between the beginning of March and the end of the season surprisingly Chelsea were the worst effected, dropping points to teams from mid-table downwards on four occasions, for a total of 10 points dropped. Looking at the other teams the average points dropped in this period was only three, although when factoring in playing each other this jumps up. Man U, Spurs and Arsenal couldn't buy a win against the other top clubs and not one of those clubs beat all of it's closest rivals.

 

I guess what I take from that is that if we lose a few of our remaining fixtures we can be relatively assured that the other teams will too. It's how we bounce back from those set backs that will define where we finish. The top teams rarely drop points in consecutive matches and we need to ensure that we match this.

 

The other thing to factor in that could work for us is that most of the teams vying for the European spaces this season will be playing extra fixtures in the Champions and Europa Leagues again soon.

[charlie saint]

Who was it from Arsenal who said on Monday "We (Arsenal) can still win the title"? And why wasn't he laughed out of the country?

 

But if Arsenal could still win the title (ha ha ha ha ha sorry), why wouldn't it be LESS funny if someone from Saints were to say WE could still win the title? We're ahead of them on merit, don't forget, with the best defence in the leagues, etc etc...

 

And what does the fact that no-one from Saints seems even to have considered saying anything like that say about the relative amounts of pressure on us as opposed to Arsenal? I know who I'd rather be.

[Whitey Grandad]

Who was it from Arsenal who said on Monday "We (Arsenal) can still win the title"? And why wasn't he laughed out of the country?

 

But if Arsenal could still win the title (ha ha ha ha ha sorry), why wouldn't it be LESS funny if someone from Saints were to say WE could still win the title? We're ahead of them on merit, don't forget, with the best defence in the leagues, etc etc...

 

And what does the fact that no-one from Saints seems even to have considered saying anything like that say about the relative amounts of pressure on us as opposed to Arsenal? I know who I'd rather be.

 

Aaron Ramsey.

[Saint_Ash]

I would say some of these united fans are feeling the pressure!

http://community.manutd.com/forums/t/288283.aspx?PageIndex=3

[Stu Man Do]

I would say some of these united fans are feeling the pressure!

http://community.manutd.com/forums/t/288283.aspx?PageIndex=3

 

They haven't played anyone inform in recent weeks. They have luck on their side. They played us after we had 2 back to back draws and the day we played them LVG got it all wrong. Then they played a Newcastle that has lost Tiote and Cisse and have no manager. Now they will play Swansea after a 5-0 drubbing and with their morale low. They syruggled vs inform Ipswich. If they play Chelsea right now they could get destroyed. Gardos and Fonte are not solid.

 

One of my faves from that thread. Good job we keep getting lucky! 22 game weeks in a row! Amazing bit of luck that! Grades and Fonte not solid? What happened at OT the other week? Haha pipe down mancs time to realise we're a decent team playing well :-)

[simo]

Another few more games in I'll start a betting run against us and for our rivals , it worked for the championship i stood to gain a nice payout if we hadn't of been promoted be nice for the same to happen this time with top 4

[5string]

Great threat and some brilliant comments, too.

 

The pressure at the top is just as intense, but it's 'positive' pressure and less desperate than at the bottom end. Therefore more enjoyable.

 

Agree with the OP about winning/losing having a greater effect on league position and prospects of finishing higher.

[JxgrSaint]

Great article, sort of related to the topic:

 

http://bit.ly/1Ja0pDF