hypochondriac Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 (edited) When Koeman joined, it was said that one of his strengths was that he has a knack from improving already good players into something better. I just remembered that and wow is that correct this season. Reed, Wanyama, (look at his silky skills and passing now compared to last season!) Fonte, (what a player and a real Southampton legend) even Clyne looks more solid and an attacking threat from time to time. It's been great that all of our signings have come off, but what has impressed me more is the extra performance Ronald has squeezed out of last season's players. Edited 18 January, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Oh and JWP with something like his 6th assist of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 I also think the whole club set up and squad togetherness helps get the best out of the players. Look at Elia yesterday going out of his way to thank everyone for helping him settle in. It sounded like Fonte in particular played a big part in this. For me Fonte is player of the season, he has been a magnificent leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary3009 Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 The thing i would like to know is whether the players are overachieving, or performing at their current ability. I keep seeing us being referred to as this incredible side who are getting the best out of their players and then some. But are we? After all these games played, could or should us the fans really now believe that this is exactly where we belong? Should we stop singing songs about staying up even though its tongue-in-cheek? Heard a few Saints fans on the phone-ins last night and they were all very cautious as was Fonte and Koeman. I have been reluctant to get to excited as i've followed Saints for 25 years and no success is normally always followed by failure... But maybe those days have now gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 January, 2015 The thing i would like to know is whether the players are overachieving, or performing at their current ability. I keep seeing us being referred to as this incredible side who are getting the best out of their players and then some. But are we? After all these games played, could or should us the fans really now believe that this is exactly where we belong? Should we stop singing songs about staying up even though its tongue-in-cheek? Heard a few Saints fans on the phone-ins last night and they were all very cautious as was Fonte and Koeman. I have been reluctant to get to excited as i've followed Saints for 25 years and no success is normally always followed by failure... But maybe those days have now gone? I believe we are performing at our current ability but that ability has improved from last year. There is no doubt that Fonte, Wanyama etc have found another gear this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Koeman's tactics, both from the start and in game, have been a massive improvement on last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 (edited) The thing i would like to know is whether the players are overachieving, or performing at their current ability. I keep seeing us being referred to as this incredible side who are getting the best out of their players and then some. But are we? After all these games played, could or should us the fans really now believe that this is exactly where we belong? Should we stop singing songs about staying up even though its tongue-in-cheek? Heard a few Saints fans on the phone-ins last night and they were all very cautious as was Fonte and Koeman. I have been reluctant to get to excited as i've followed Saints for 25 years and no success is normally always followed by failure... But maybe those days have now gone? It is impossible to know. The entire length of the season is probably not statistically significant enough to be sure. Our good goal differential tells us we are not getting lucky in our results relative to our goals scored and given up--like Tottenham was last year and Newcastle was in 2011-2012, but that doesn't mean we are being unlucky or lucky in the number of goals we score or give up. This is a bad indicator for Tottenham this year too, by the way. Edited 18 January, 2015 by Redslo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westmidlandsaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 It's an interesting one actually, when is it ok to start believing now, with 10 games remaining, or with 5 ???? As Gary said I have also been supporting saints for 25 years and feel it's too good to be true when talking about champions league. Working in the West Midlands drinking out of a saints mug in meetings certainly is a talking point at the moment when new clients come in tends to be a good ice breaker at the moment. What I have noticed over the last few weeks is these people seem to be believing we have a chance to qualify more than I do, I just stick to my "I'd still snap your hand off for a top 6 finish" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Pochettino improved a fair few players when he was here, Steven Davis and Jay Rod the most obvious two I can think of. Koeman has just taken into onto a whole different level, nobody has gone backwards or not improved that I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 The way Elia was all emotional and commented on Koeman after the game reminded me of Le Tiss and Alan Ball (always ironic since one of his greatest footballing friends was Koeman's mentor Cruyff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewYorkSaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 One of the key strategic improvements this year has been management of energy during the match. Last year Poch had the team unleashing at blitzkrieg speed and effort from the kickoff. We terrified teams, won a ton of possession, and often scored early. But halfway through the second half we became really vulnerable. Lallana would have to be subbed, others were knackered, and we lost a ton of points from winning positions. This year our high-press game is more carefully tuned. We pick our moments, often led by Pelle, but it's not crazy-like-a-fox from the get go. As a result we tend to score later... but then hold on to victories. I wrote about this last year. That the high-press strategy, although exciting to watch, was not working out well. The Koemans have fixed this. Brilliantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 One of the key strategic improvements this year has been management of energy during the match. Last year Poch had the team unleashing at blitzkrieg speed and effort from the kickoff. We terrified teams, won a ton of possession, and often scored early. But halfway through the second half we became really vulnerable. Lallana would have to be subbed, others were knackered, and we lost a ton of points from winning positions. This year our high-press game is more carefully tuned. We pick our moments, often led by Pelle, but it's not crazy-like-a-fox from the get go. As a result we tend to score later... but then hold on to victories. I wrote about this last year. That the high-press strategy, although exciting to watch, was not working out well. The Koemans have fixed this. Brilliantly. it seems Poch is not having that problem with spurs this season if anything, they get stronger over their opposition as the games goes on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 When Koeman joined, it was said that one of his strengths was that he has a knack from improving already good players into something better. I just remembered that and wow is that correct this season. Reed, Wanyama, (look at his silky skills and passing now compared to last season!) Fonte, (what a player and a real Southampton legend) even Clyne looks more solid and an attacking threat from time to time. It's been great that all of our signings have come off, but what has impressed me more is the extra performance Ronald has squeezed out of last season's players. Agree Hypo..... We've seen the progression from the nervous Adkins arrivals in the Prem., then Pochettino's more agressive style , by now surely everyone from the U18's upwards knows how we like to play, so that Koeman's knack seems to be improving the individual player's abilities and building their confidence. Not sure that Elia's " bad boy reputation" is really deserved, but he did seem very grateful to RK for giving him the chance ....and not afraid to say so . More of the same please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 I know not necessarily the point of the thread (which I totally agree with btw) but just thought we also have attracted 3 players on loan 2 of which have played in CL final and the other who has played in a WC final. Can't but help the younger players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Oh and JWP with something like his 6th assist of the season. Most assists for any U21 player in all of the top 5 leagues in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughieslastminutegoal Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 The thing i would like to know is whether the players are overachieving, or performing at their current ability. I keep seeing us being referred to as this incredible side who are getting the best out of their players and then some. But are we? After all these games played, could or should us the fans really now believe that this is exactly where we belong? Should we stop singing songs about staying up even though its tongue-in-cheek? Heard a few Saints fans on the phone-ins last night and they were all very cautious as was Fonte and Koeman. I have been reluctant to get to excited as i've followed Saints for 25 years and no success is normally always followed by failure... But maybe those days have now gone? Yeah, i know what you're saying. I went to a restaurant where they served up an excellent 5* meal, but I was reluctant to get excited about it as I wasn't certain I'd get a great meal in a few week's time. I think you must be the definition of pessimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Most assists for any U21 player in all of the top 5 leagues in Europe. He was very impressive yesterday. I think he's about to hit a whole new level of skill and influence over the next few games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Yeah, i know what you're saying. I went to a restaurant where they served up an excellent 5* meal, but I was reluctant to get excited about it as I wasn't certain I'd get a great meal in a few week's time. I think you must be the definition of pessimist. I think Southampton Football Club owe it to their fans' wellbeing, to send them on a mindfulness therapy session: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/pages/mindfulness.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Whatever happens through the rest of the season, we are third because we are currently the third best team in the Premiership. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Lot of potential club legends in the making under RK. We're going to need a bigger banner. And 4K monitors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloydie Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Oh and JWP with something like his 6th assist of the season. I remember last year and the start of this year (prior to his injury) thinking to myself that I knew JWP was good, but I didn't really know what contribution other than good dead balls he gave the team. He was lightweight, didnt create many chances compared to others and generally went missing in games. Since he got injured you can tell he spent the time in the gym bulking up a bit as he now has started to put his mark on the side in one of the 3 attacking midfield options: he's stronger on and off the ball, closes things down in the final third well and now has quite a few assists to his name, the pass to mane at palace being one sublime example! So kudos JWP and Koeman, definately doing something right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 I suggested several weeks ago that Koeman was better at developing players than Pochettino, and some folks took issue with that. My point wasn't that Pochettino was bad at it but that he did it by forcing players to adhere to his effective but largely one-dimensional style. If we didn't play the press, the same players didn't look as good. If you didn't fit the style, you bench-armed a lot (JWP?). Moreover, some individual weaknesses remained weaknesses when he left - Lallana's final ball, our crossing, Wanyama's passing, Clyne's vulnerability to the high ball at the far post, strikes from midfield, anything to do with the keepers, and so on. We dropped a lot of points from winning positions. Koeman and his staff, on the other hand, seem to have made a number of individuals better players. They seem to spot the mistakes in positioning, technique and tactical contribution, and then address them - Mané, Fonte and Yoshida being good examples. This enables the players to still play well in different roles and tactical packages - even within games. We have more dimensions under Koeman and we're seeing more goals from midfield. We're better at protecting leads. And we're doing all this on arguably lower fitness levels - not a criticism, because Pochettino's demands eventually took a toll on the players in mid-Winter. For me, we're playing better and more varied football and we have a very good chance of sustaining it for longer. In fact we have already. Sure, Pochettino's a damn good coach but for me he's not close to Koeman on a number of levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 I suggested several weeks ago that Koeman was better at developing players than Pochettino, and some folks took issue with that. . I think you actually suggested that Poch never really developed players. when he clearly did/does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellman Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 I also think the whole club set up and squad togetherness helps get the best out of the players. Look at Elia yesterday going out of his way to thank everyone for helping him settle in. It sounded like Fonte in particular played a big part in this. For me Fonte is player of the season, he has been a magnificent leader. Yes, agreed! Compare the leadership Fonte can be seen to give every match compared with last year's captain, oh dear, his leadership on and off the field was invisible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 I think you actually suggested that Poch never really developed players. when he clearly did/does You're still missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 You're still missing the point. im not missing any point. People took issue with what you said, as Poch did a great deal to develop some of our players (english ones too) Koeman seems to have taken it to another level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 im not missing any point. People took issue with what you said, as Poch did a great deal to develop some of our players (english ones too) Koeman seems to have taken it to another level You are missing the point. Some people took issue with what I said (you being chief among them) but just as many saw things the same way. I didn't say "Poch never really developed players" - I said this in the original post and clarified it later: It seems to me that there has been another direct benefit to the arrival of Koeman and his coaching team, besides the many we've been talking about: players are showing significant improvement from the perspective that their weaknesses are being spotted and addressed. In my view that has been evident in recent weeks in a number of players but especially Forster, Mané and Wanyama. Forster has improved on low shots and become more decisive on crosses. Mané's running is more focused and purposeful, he's more positionally aware, and he's become better at tracking back. Wanyama's passing has continued to improve and he's even started to show some real flair touches. It's difficult to think of a carry-over player (e.g. Fonte, Clyne, Yoshida) who isn't playing better (as an individual) under Koeman than he was under Pochettino. Although he's an excellent coach, "player improvement" wasn't really one of Pochettino's strengths. The keepers in particular just didn't seem to be improving, and the same mistake-tendencies were evident in a number of players almost throughout his reign. It all makes me wonder where Koeman is capable of taking us. If those players really did improve as individuals under Pochettino, as opposed to playing and fitting well within Pochettino's system, why have they had such a tough time playing as well at their new clubs? But that's all moot, really, because you've just agreed that "Koeman seems to have taken it to another level", which was the entire point of my post and Hypo's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 (edited) You are missing the point. Some people took issue with what I said (you being chief among them) but just as many saw things the same way. I didn't say "Poch never really developed players" - I said this in the original post and clarified it later: If those players really did improve as individuals under Pochettino, as opposed to playing and fitting well within Pochettino's system, why have they had such a tough time playing as well at their new clubs? But that's all moot, really, because you've just agreed that "Koeman seems to have taken it to another level", which was the entire point of my post and Hypo's post. well, lets see how JWP would figure under LvG or Reed under wenger. different systems being played like mane looked hopeless being stuck out wide and then looked very good with more instructions to get inside and closer to pelle Luke shaw playing left wing back is a prime example put rickie lambert in our side and he will look miles better than he does for liverpool right now. we would play a system better suited to what he is all about we are better now, no arguement. but wonder where we would be had Koeman be forced to play fox and hooiveld Edited 18 January, 2015 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 we are better now, no arguement. but wonder where we would be had Koeman be forced to play fox and hooiveld Thy would be much better players under Koeman and the Big Boys would be throwing wads of cash at us for both of them. Seriously, though, I think Koeman would cook-up something on a tactical level to cover for their "inadequacies", while Pochettino needed them to fit into his system, inadequacies and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 it seems Poch is not having that problem with spurs this season if anything, they get stronger over their opposition as the games goes on Spurs seem to be the polar opposite of us last season, they take ages to get into games and then go mad in the latter stages as they seek to rescue results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Good coaches improve players, it's what they do. JWP has played for some really good coaches all through his academy days, through the England youth ranks, to Adkins, Pochettino and now not just RK but Erwin and Sammy Lee as well. The trick is to learn from all of them and adapt this knowledge to your own playing style. Oh yes and hard work, plenty of practice and no small natural talent and athletic prowess. Easy really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simo Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 If Mayuka scores then he'll be a genius haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Further to the suggestion I made earlier, about Koeman cooking-up something on a tactical level to cover for the weaknesses of fill-in players, does anyone else feel that Bertrand plays a rather less adventurous role when Gardos is in for Alderweield? Gardos has done pretty well but he's not on the same level as Toby for game-reading and composure under pressure, so it seems to me that Bertrand stays back a little more. There so many clever subtleties to Koeman's coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 Most of those that have left us seem to be having a dip in form. If players improve at this club I'd say the credit lies as much with the set up of the club and ethos of training and improvement, rather than solely with whichever manager we have at the time. It's the Southampton way, or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 18 January, 2015 Share Posted 18 January, 2015 A really good point made by Robbie Earle on NBC yesterday (he has become a very good pundit IMO). Said our club is run exceptionally well all the way from top to bottom. By not having a team of 'stars' like Man U the club can focus on getting the little things right that make differences. Nothing particularly new there but easy for media to ignore/discount this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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