Newcastle 1 - 2 Southampton Post Match euphoria

[krissyboy31]

Ok I will keep my mouth shut in future. Geez!!!

 

I think that what he's trying to say is that at full speed the ref quite legitimately didn't think it was a penalty because it didn't look like it from the angle of the tv camera and I for one didn't have a clue what they were appealing for, in fact, I was still cursing why they hadn't given us a handball seconds earlier. With all of the replays and slo-mos and freeze frames you could say it was a stonewaller. Trouble is there is no consistency. Some more clear cut are not given and others which brush the defenders arm, down by their side (as with Leicester a couple of weeks ago) are given.

Edited 18 January, 2015 by krissyboy31

[Whitey Grandad]

Surely you could argue though that if Fonte was instinctively lifting his hand to protect his face then that is a deliberate attempt to handle the ball, albeit only to deflect it away?

 

Sometimes they're given, sometimes they ain't. Maybe they should make it more like hockey where if it hits your foot it's a foul whatever. Would mean more pens but would eliminate that grey area and make players keep their hands down!

 

There's not enough time to think in these situations. The time of travel of the ball is shorter than a normal human reaction time.

 

The trouble with making all contact with the hand a penalty is that teams would spend the whole game aiming at their opponents hands instead of trying to score a goal. Then we might end up something like rugby or American Football with 4 points for a normal goal, two for a penalty foul and one for a penalty handball. Where would it all end?

[Whitey Grandad]

I think that what he's trying to say is that at full speed the ref quite legitimately didn't think it was a penalty because it didn't look like it from the angle of the tv camera and I for one didn't have a clue what they were appealing for, in fact, I was still cursing why they hadn't given us a handball seconds earlier. With all of the replays and slo-mos and freeze frames you couls say it was a stonewaller. Trouble is there is no consistency. Some more clear cut are not given and others which brush the defenders arm, down by their side (as with Leicester a couple of weeks ago) are given.

 

That's fair enough, but as shown on MOTD (amongst all the replays) the referee was close and had a clear view. Fortunately for us he decided it wasn't enough for a penalty. Strangely enough nobody analysed the ball hitting a Newcastle player on the arm a couple of second before.

[krissyboy31]

There is another argument here. Chelsea defenders are coached to keep there hands behind their backs but Gary Cahill, in particular, but also John Terry (and previously David Luis used to) deliberately block the ball with their upper arms as an extension of their torso. Never given as handball because their arms are by their side but a deliberate block with their arms all the same.

[CWD]

There's not enough time to think in these situations. The time of travel of the ball is shorter than a normal human reaction time.

 

The trouble with making all contact with the hand a penalty is that teams would spend the whole game aiming at their opponents hands instead of trying to score a goal. Then we might end up something like rugby or American Football with 4 points for a normal goal, two for a penalty foul and one for a penalty handball. Where would it all end?

 

Very true, I was just playing devils advocate really.

 

You could make it so deliberate hand ball is a penalty, and accidental handball is a corner or an indirect free kick. I just think the seems to be so much confusion around the issue.

[Dellman]

Very true, I was just playing devils advocate really.

 

You could make it so deliberate hand ball is a penalty, and accidental handball is a corner or an indirect free kick. I just think the seems to be so much confusion around the issue.

 

Blimey, will a corner for an accidental handball make things less confused,players and fans will be doing their nut

[derry]

I've seen them given but that doesn't make it right. My opinion for what it's worth, with the pace of the ball and the short distance involved could Fonte have got out of the way. The key for me he turned his head away and that was all he had time to do. Good decision as was the situation seconds before. Remind me, how many times did Poll book the player in the World Cup without sending him off ?

[cambsaint]

I think all this analysis is pointless. The only and final arbiter is the referee, and it is his and only his opinion taken immediately in the heat of the moment without recourse to TV replays (at present) that matters.

I also think that being so close to the action the referee can use the player's body language to aid his decision whether it was deliberate.

I believe Fonte when he said he reacted automatically. Most dodgy handballs look nothing like that imo.

Compare with the Chelsea match when it was blatantly obvious the Saints player slipped thereby nullifying a foul as no intent or reckless behaviour.

[SaintRobbie]

We are staying up.

 

Love having Yellow kit back too.

[Batman]

I think all this analysis is pointless. The only and final arbiter is the referee, and it is his and only his opinion taken immediately in the heat of the moment without recourse to TV replays (at present) that matters.

I also think that being so close to the action the referee can use the player's body language to aid his decision whether it was deliberate.

I believe Fonte when he said he reacted automatically. Most dodgy handballs look nothing like that imo.

Compare with the Chelsea match when it was blatantly obvious the Saints player slipped thereby nullifying a foul as no intent or reckless behaviour.

 

They get given. Quite often.

[Whitey Grandad]

They get given. Quite often.

 

Yes, indeed they do. But it's wrong to highlight just one decision amongst all the others in the match which may not have had as much of an important direct influence on the result. If they're going to examine just the one then they ought to examine all the others.

[angelman]

I guess we should thank Sunderland for letting us use their training facilities. Not sure how common it is for them or any other PL side to let one of their competitors use their camp. Maybe it's a Sunderland/Newcastle thing.

[captainchris]

All very positive and an amazing week. Only one criticism - will someone tell Forster to be more attentive and concentrate on the game. He is glued to the six yard area and every single time a ball is played long over the top top he has too much ground to make up to get to it!!! It's blatent - even Jamie Garragher or what ever his name is has noticed it now but still our coaches do nothing about it????????

It's costing us goals now so come on let's get this major Forster issue sorted....

[SaintBobby]

Great win, but it was a stonewall penalty. We got a bit of (deserved) luck there.

 

I'm a big Fonte fan, but he seemed to have a very poor last 5 minutes or so. (Maybe he was just exhausted, which would not be wholly unreasonable)

[Saintandy666]

All very positive and an amazing week. Only one criticism - will someone tell Forster to be more attentive and concentrate on the game. He is glued to the six yard area and every single time a ball is played long over the top top he has too much ground to make up to get to it!!! It's blatent - even Jamie Garragher or what ever his name is has noticed it now but still our coaches do nothing about it????????

It's costing us goals now so come on let's get this major Forster issue sorted....

 

Major Forster issue?! There is no major issue, he's been great for us all season and a key reason why we have by some way the best defensive record in premier league.

[Jack]

Major Forster issue?! There is no major issue, he's been great for us all season and a key reason why we have by some way the best defensive record in premier league.

 

That's a bit naive I think. He's been generally good but is often guilty of being glued to his line instead of coming to claim a cross or a long ball and taking the pressure off. Maybe his howler vs Aston Villa plays on his mind, I'm not sure, but it's definitely something to work on. If he was off his line quicker against Newcastle, with a big shout, there's no way Gardos would've felt the need to try to clear it, and maybe I would've had more dream team points over the weekend.

[sussexsaint]

Just so proud of the manner in which we are doing this, a spine of home grown talent with a phenominal level of togetherness and belief. Most other teams who have flirted with the top spots have done so by spending money they havent got on 'names' . What is exciting is that our model for success is sustainable.

 

Was also quite touched by Nigel Adkins tweet before the game, wishing the travelling fans well and using the hashtag #togetherasone . Not sure you get ex managers communicating like that with many clubs.

 

Loved the yellow - taken right back to that day at cardiff

[Professor]

Funny old game, football. The neutral could say that Newcastle should have won because they had more possession and enough goal chances, as well as the disputed penalty claim. On the other hand, Saints actually scored two goals and hit the bar, while Newcastle's goal was a pure fluke so you can't say it was an unreasonable result.

But as fans we shouldn't get carried away. We did miss the injured three, and it will probably be mid-Feb before they are all back. With due respect to Mané, he wasn't missed because Elia proved to be the perfect replacement but the next few games are crucial until the squad is back to strength.

[angelman]

I do like the bit about the penalty where it seems to be a given that had they been awarded it, they would have scored.

 

http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Penalty_Statistics.html

 

Seems that there is about a 20% chance that they would have not.

[shurlock]

That's a bit naive I think. He's been generally good but is often guilty of being glued to his line instead of coming to claim a cross or a long ball and taking the pressure off. Maybe his howler vs Aston Villa plays on his mind, I'm not sure, but it's definitely something to work on. If he was off his line quicker against Newcastle, with a big shout, there's no way Gardos would've felt the need to try to clear it, and maybe I would've had more dream team points over the weekend.

 

What is overlooked amidst discussion of the Gardos deflection is that the initial pass took a deflection off Fonte which split Gardos and Clyne, turning it into the perfect throughball. Can't blame Forster for anticipating the trajectory of the first pass which was much innocuous and almost certainly not going in an area where he could come and claim. The Fonte deflection also took place much further up the pitch, meaning that he wasn't necessarily favourite to get the ball even if he had tried.

[captainchris]

Major Forster issue?! There is no major issue, he's been great for us all season and a key reason why we have by some way the best defensive record in premier league.

 

I think you might be giving him more credit than he is due for our defensive record. Opposing teams don't get many shots on target against us in general. If you were to take his goals conceded in relation to shots on target I would imagine Forster is quite well down that particular league.... Maybe someone has that statistic at their finger tips?

[farawaysaint]

I think you might be giving him more credit than he is due for our defensive record. Opposing teams don't get many shots on target against us in general. If you were to take his goals conceded in relation to shots on target I would imagine Forster is quite well down that particular league.... Maybe someone has that statistic at their finger tips?

 

Actually if you look at this and compare him to keepers who've played a similar amount of games he's doing just fine. Not the best in the league by any stretch but statistically a good keeper.

 

http://www.barriesview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/premier-league-goalkeeper-stats-201415.png

[Benny F]

So proud of the Newcastle win. With arguably our finest three out with injury, the team did brilliantly and demonstrated the resilience in the Koeman system.

Long header for Elia second was a high jump spectacular.

[Special K]

Fantastic win. It also reinforces what we know (and the rest of the country don't) that we are strong beneath the first 11 with a mix of resilient journeymen and talented youngsters that are coached and motivated correctly. I hope that when Spurs, Arsenal, Scouse and City get back to European football, their fixture pile ups will have a negative effect on their league performances (Chelsea seem just too good to suffer) which will give us the opportunity to push ahead a bit.

[The9]

All very positive and an amazing week. Only one criticism - will someone tell Forster to be more attentive and concentrate on the game. He is glued to the six yard area and every single time a ball is played long over the top top he has too much ground to make up to get to it!!! It's blatent - even Jamie Garragher or what ever his name is has noticed it now but still our coaches do nothing about it????????

It's costing us goals now so come on let's get this major Forster issue sorted....

 

There is no "major Forster issue", he's doing well. One crap kick on Saturday and maybe he should have yelled at Gardos to leave the clearance (which he was right there for) but as Carragher said, once you're committed to it, it's very difficult to just "not" do it.

[The9]

Yes, indeed they do. But it's wrong to highlight just one decision amongst all the others in the match which may not have had as much of an important direct influence on the result. If they're going to examine just the one then they ought to examine all the others.

 

Including the fact that the clearance loading to the shot Fonte blocked with his arm was blocked by a Newcastle player (Colback?)'s elbow.

[svetigpung]

AllOnly one criticism - will someone tell Forster to be more attentive and concentrate on the game. He is glued to the six yard area and every single time a ball is played long over the top top he has too much ground to make up to get to it!!! It's blatent - even Jamie Garragher or what ever his name is has noticed it now but still our coaches do nothing about it????????

It's costing us goals now so come on let's get this major Forster issue sorted....

 

I agree. Not a huge problem but he sure doesn't want to leave his sixyardbox. This is his only negative IMO. Too many memories of Villa maybe? As a big man he is not gonna be lightning fast, therefore he should be better positioned in anticipation for the through and over the top balls.

Maximum bad luck for their goal. Probably equals out Fontes blatant penalty appeal.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

A bit late with my reaction after a good weekend in Newcastle but just to say a special word for Pelle in the game. He is finding goalscoring chances increasingly hard to come by in some games but what impresses me so much about him is his spirit and teamwork. He clearly loves scoring goals, and he's been used to it for the last half of his career, however we're seeing a different side to him the last month or so. But while he can be frustrated he is never negative, he is always encouraging his teammates and putting his body on the line for his team. When the team scores he is making sure everyone celebrates together. I think he is very influential with all of the intangibles he brings to our team. He looks shattered and isolated at times, but I can't help but think he is always putting the team first and doesn't think a second about it.

[mrfahaji]

So, taking a step from the euphoria tonight.

 

Another thing that stood out tonight, our lads are REALLY Intelligent footballers, even Tadic timing his rolling in agony, mentally, we were streets ahead of Newcastle.

 

 

I could be wrong on this, but moments before Elia was substituted he was close to the technical area and Koeman seemed to be ushering him away - I think he was telling him to get further away because the change was imminent and wanted the substitution to take longer!

[positivepete]

I agree. Not a huge problem but he sure doesn't want to leave his sixyardbox. This is his only negative IMO. Too many memories of Villa maybe? As a big man he is not gonna be lightning fast, therefore he should be better positioned in anticipation for the through and over the top balls.

Maximum bad luck for their goal. Probably equals out Fontes blatant penalty appeal.

 

I am sure you will find that there is a clear demarcation for the defenders and the goalie. Forster deliberately stays on his line if the cross is going outside the six yard box. Watch the warm ups, the same thing happens during this period. If the ball is outside the six yard box it is the defenders responsibility.

[Lets B Avenue]

For those of you watching Gary Neville's piece on us just now and who have never been to St James Park, that was our view of proceedings.

[austsaint]

A bit late with my reaction after a good weekend in Newcastle but just to say a special word for Pelle in the game. He is finding goalscoring chances increasingly hard to come by in some games but what impresses me so much about him is his spirit and teamwork. He clearly loves scoring goals' date=' and he's been used to it for the last half of his career, however we're seeing a different side to him the last month or so. But while he can be frustrated he is never negative, he is always encouraging his teammates and putting his body on the line for his team. When the team scores he is making sure everyone celebrates together. I think he is very influential with all of the intangibles he brings to our team. He looks shattered and isolated at times, but I can't help but think he is always putting the team first and doesn't think a second about it.[/quote']

 

Good observation. And with a bit of luck, he could have several more goals to his tally recently but for the woodwork. Team ethic really is the byword for Saints these days and Pelle is right up there with some leadership qualities thrown in.

[scotty]

A bit late with my reaction after a good weekend in Newcastle but just to say a special word for Pelle in the game. He is finding goalscoring chances increasingly hard to come by in some games but what impresses me so much about him is his spirit and teamwork. He clearly loves scoring goals' date=' and he's been used to it for the last half of his career, however we're seeing a different side to him the last month or so. But while he can be frustrated he is never negative, he is always encouraging his teammates and putting his body on the line for his team. When the team scores he is making sure everyone celebrates together. I think he is very influential with all of the intangibles he brings to our team. He looks shattered and isolated at times, but I can't help but think he is always putting the team first and doesn't think a second about it.[/quote']

 

 

 

Absolutely this. Pelle has been immense for us, even regardless of the goals he's scored. A terrific team player, holding up and laying off....just superb. I was a bit sceptical when he arrived, thought he was maybe a showpiece Koeman signing just because they'd worked together previously, but ffs how wrong could I have been.

 

Also, regarding the pen appeal against Fonte, the ref could have given it either way. But his problem was that he ignored an identical one in the toon box moments earlier, I'm guessing because he bottled giving a debatable penalty decision against the home side in injury time. He'd have then had to explain to the refs committee why he gave one and not the other when they were both pretty much the same thing.

[Rut]

FFS - is this forum for Saints fans or not?

 

It wasn't given. We won. We're 3rd. Enjoy it.

[The Cat]

FFS - is this forum for Saints fans or not?

 

It wasn't given. We won. We're 3rd. Enjoy it.

 

If we finish in a European spot by 2 points I won't celebrate it because of the penalty Newcastle should have had.

[The9]

A friend of mine who is a referee says it was a penalty. Fonte's arm was not in that position when the ball was kicked so his interpretation was that it was hand to ball not the other way. We were lucky to get away with it but swings and roundabouts.

 

Without a few hours' worth of video reviewing how players usually go for blocks it's impossible to know what their "natural position" is anyway.

 

I will keep mentioning that the clearance before it was stopped from going into Newcastle's half by Colback's elbow.

[Village Saint]

Without a few hours' worth of video reviewing how players usually go for blocks it's impossible to know what their "natural position" is anyway.

 

I will keep mentioning that the clearance before it was stopped from going into Newcastle's half by Colback's elbow.

 

With all due respect referee or not, your friend clearly has a limited grasp of the laws of the game. For a penalty to be awarded - like it or like it not - the use of the hand must be deliberate. All this unnatural arm position nonsense is just that - nonsense. It is not in the laws of the game. When a ball is kicked at great speed at any player from a couple of yards it is absolutely impossible for them to make a deliberate handball. Human reaction times just aren't that quick. Far too many of these do get given but on this occasion the referee got it dead right.

[The9]

With all due respect referee or not, your friend clearly has a limited grasp of the laws of the game. For a penalty to be awarded - like it or like it not - the use of the hand must be deliberate. All this unnatural arm position nonsense is just that - nonsense. It is not in the laws of the game. When a ball is kicked at great speed at any player from a couple of yards it is absolutely impossible for them to make a deliberate handball. Human reaction times just aren't that quick. Far too many of these do get given but on this occasion the referee got it dead right.

 

Which "friend" and referee is that? I didn't mention either.

 

It has to be deliberate, and the consideration of where the player's hands would be if he was deliberately trying to stop the ball with his hand will obviously influence the referee's opinion of whether it was deliberate or not. The only truly accurate way to make that decision is by knowing what a player ALWAYS does when trying to block the ball.

 

The laws of the game (so we can all discuss from an informed position) state this:

 

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with

the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into

consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)

• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)

• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an

infringement

• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)

counts as an infringement

• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an

infringement

 

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/02/36/01/11/27_06_2014_new--lawsofthegameweben_neutral.pdf

 

Fonte may always block with his hands in that position, or he may have put it up there especially to prevent the ball passing. That has a significant impact on whether the ref believes it's deliberate or not. I agree with you that he wouldn't have time to block it deliberately.

 

The bit you're not getting is that there's a discussion to be had about whether the position he "naturally" adopts is reasonable or whether it's a position which intends on blocking the ball deliberately in the event that it moves at him - the Laws obviously aren't designed to allow players to spread themselves as widely as possible with the defence that they didn't mean to handle, when they've put themselves in a position which makes it so much more obvious that the are likely to handle. That's the nuance of the "natural position" debate.

 

He didn't move his hand to the ball, Either way they're often given.

[saint_roffa]

Dutch press reporting Elia is in the team of the week in La Gazzetta dello Sport, with Ronaldo and Messi.

[Saint_Ash]

Dutch press reporting Elia is in the team of the week in La Gazzetta dello Sport, with Ronaldo and Messi.

 

How can this be? He wasn't even in Garth Crook's team for the Premiership?

[The9]

How can this be? He wasn't even in Garth Crook's team for the Premiership?

 

That's because the Premiership ceased being the name of the league nearly 8 years ago. Unless you're talking about Scotland or Rugby, in which case, apologies.

[igsey]

How can this be? He wasn't even in Garth Crook's team for the Premiership?

 

Because in the Premiership, to get in Garth Crook's Premiership Team Of The Week for the Premiership, you have to be either a goal-scoring Premiership defender, an English Premiership player (bonus points if you're an English Premiership defender that scores Premiership goals), or play for a Premiership team that traditionally finishes in the top 5-6 Premiership teams in the Premiership. He didn't even know who Yoshida was until a couple of Premiership matches ago when he played in the Premiership and scored a Premiership goal, despite Yoshi making 49 Premiership appearances for the Premiership team Southampton prior to that Premiership appearance.

 

Phew!

[Nellie]

Because in the Premiership, to get in Garth Crook's Premiership Team Of The Week for the Premiership, you have to be either a goal-scoring Premiership defender, an English Premiership player (bonus points if you're an English Premiership defender that scores Premiership goals), or play for a Premiership team that traditionally finishes in the top 5-6 Premiership teams in the Premiership. He didn't even know who Yoshida was until a couple of Premiership matches ago when he played in the Premiership and scored a Premiership goal, despite Yoshi making 49 Premiership appearances for the Premiership team Southampton prior to that Premiership appearance.

 

Phew!

 

The9 is going to just love this post.

[St_Tel49]

If we finish in a European spot by 2 points I won't celebrate it because of the penalty Newcastle should have had.

 

Liar

[mrfahaji]

Has anyone been so infallible as Jose Fonte when it comes to conceding penalties/free kicks? I think most people would at least put Saturday in the "seen them given" category, and I'd joked long before then about Fonte's ability to escape the blame. In the last few seasons I have seen him get away with things that would have me screaming "how has the ref not seen that?!" if I was supporting the other team, and I definitely recall myself saying "If that was Hooiveld it would definitely have been given"! Not to take anything away from how superb he has been though - I had doubts about him in the Championship, saw him as a weak link first season up, but now he is immense and a true captain, not just a token armband wearer.

[Saint_Ash]

That's because the Premiership ceased being the name of the league nearly 8 years ago. Unless you're talking about Scotland or Rugby, in which case, apologies.