France: Charlie Hebdo shootings

[buctootim]

Suspects found hiding in woodland apparently - a helicopter with infra red night vision has found two heat readings)

[Sour Mash]

I ignore it because it is fundamentality flawed. Why would Holy scripture require hermeneutics if it was divinely inspired by an all powerful Deity? Why leave open the possibility for his word to be misunderstood? If he exists he is inept at revealing his word to the world's population throughout time.

 

Are you a Christian? Do you believe the 10 commandments (and the other 600+ often overlooked commandments) are the law of your God? Should they be carried out in full? If not, why not? What hermeneutics have you used to decide that?

 

 

 

I'm yet to have someone explain why that thread gave me a "hiding". They avoid the question, as you have done.

There are only 2 reasons to follow a religion. Cultural/community pressures or border-line mental illness.

[Jonnyboy]

There are only 2 reasons to follow a religion. Cultural/community pressures or border-line mental illness.

 

Aww Mr Mash, don't you ever wonder what it's all about? Don't you yearn for a higher meaning? Who knows, maybe He created You in his own image. You just have to let the love in.

[whelk]

[whelk]

Aww Mr Mash, don't you ever wonder what it's all about? Don't you yearn for a higher meaning? Who knows, maybe He created You in his own image. You just have to let the love in.

 

Often the tolerant 'live and let live' atheist is quite intolerant when you look into their views and will more often have pseudo intellectual smugness not rivalled in their less tolerant religious friends.

 

Still good to know some have all the answers.

[CB Fry]

I'm yet to have someone explain why that thread gave me a "hiding". They avoid the question, as you have done.

 

You got a hiding in that thread for deciding that the anodyne phrase "our thoughts and prayers are with" was tantamount to religious fundamentalism and decided to start comparing the use of that phrase to the actions of religious nut parents who refuse life saving treatment on religious grounds.

 

It was easily one of the most ridiculous trains of thought ever seen on this forum, and I don't blame you for running away from it.

 

You've been on this forum long enough for people to know you are autistic and can't process the world in a recognised way, so maybe we should all cut you a little slack. Unfortunately your Clark Carlisle stuff was just too ludicrous to ignore.

[hypochondriac]

Time after time after time after time after time I put a rebuttal to you and you ignore it and instead go for a petty personal argument or quit the debate. Its almost as if you have no real foundation of any substance to you view, but it couldn't be that could it... surely...?

 

You're absolutely, utterly desperate for me to enter into another debate about religion here (a debate incidentally that we have had a number of times before.) but I'm not giving you the satisfaction. I know that the robotic, mentally deficient part of you loves nothing better than to be allowed to go off on another anti-religious militant atheist rant and it frustrates you that I won't feed that insatiable desire. I can't be accused of not replying to people on this topic as that's all I've done for the last couple of days, I just don't want to give you another excuse. Sorry.

[farawaysaint]

Stalin, Pol Pot etc committed great atrocities in the name of political ideals rather than religious dogma. Religion does a great deal of good and a great deal of bad, as far as I'm concerned that is because members of organised religion are all too human with the capacity for both good and evil deeds that that entails.

 

Religion is a thing and therefore cannot be prescribed the label of evil which is a personification. People do evil in the name of religion.

[hypochondriac]

Stalin, Pol Pot etc committed great atrocities in the name of political ideals rather than religious dogma. Religion does a great deal of good and a great deal of bad, as far as I'm concerned that is because members of organised religion are all too human with the capacity for both good and evil deeds that that entails.

 

Religion is a thing and therefore cannot be prescribed the label of evil which is a personification. People do evil in the name of religion.

 

One hundred percent agree. Good post.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Stalin, Pol Pot etc committed great atrocities in the name of political ideals rather than religious dogma. Religion does a great deal of good and a great deal of bad, as far as I'm concerned that is because members of organised religion are all too human with the capacity for both good and evil deeds that that entails.

 

Religion is a thing and therefore cannot be prescribed the label of evil which is a personification. People do evil in the name of religion.

 

Some might say that political and religious beliefs are but different sides of the same coin. A smarter man than me once said that both religions and political credos become ideologies when the faithful come to a point when they cannot tolerate the existence of those who maintain a different set of beliefs. When these religious or secular fundamentalists comprehend their core texts literally and refuse to accept any way of understanding the world other than their own we end up with horrors such as we have seen in Paris this week ... or in Cambodia during the 1970's for that matter.

 

I'm not one of those who resorts to a 'blame the victim' mentally in the face of crime, but it seems to me that the French satirical magazine in question was extremely unwise to pursue the editorial line it took - some pots are best left unstirred. Needless to say those fanatics who decided that a mere cartoon could possibly justify mass murder were behaving in a manner that was far more grave than being merely 'unwise'.

 

Moderation in all things would seem to be the answer - but that quality alas is too often in short supply.

[View From The Top]

Stalin, Pol Pot etc committed great atrocities in the name of political ideals rather than religious dogma. Religion does a great deal of good and a great deal of bad, as far as I'm concerned that is because members of organised religion are all too human with the capacity for both good and evil deeds that that entails.

 

Religion is a thing and therefore cannot be prescribed the label of evil which is a personification. People do evil in the name of religion.

 

Well said.

[Sour Mash]

Stalin, Pol Pot etc committed great atrocities in the name of political ideals rather than religious dogma. Religion does a great deal of good and a great deal of bad, as far as I'm concerned that is because members of organised religion are all too human with the capacity for both good and evil deeds that that entails.

 

Religion is a thing and therefore cannot be prescribed the label of evil which is a personification. People do evil in the name of religion.

Islam's impact on a par with Pol Pot and Stalin? Interesting.

[pap]

This is an interesting blog piece. It pre-dates this week's events, and features a slot on Charlie Hebdo.

 

https://theflowerthrowers.wordpress.com/tag/charlie-hebdo/

 

The blog casts doubt on the idea of freedom of speech applying in all directions.

 

Edit:

Guardian article detailing Siné sacking from Charlie Hebdo.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/03/france.pressandpublishing

Edited 9 January, 2015 by pap
Added link to Guardian site.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

There are only 2 reasons to follow a religion. Cultural/community pressures or border-line mental illness.

 

Classy!

[hypochondriac]

Islam's impact on a par with Pol Pot and Stalin? Interesting.

 

The difference is that you blame Islam whereas everyone else is blaming extremists who misuse Islam.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

How would Hitlers persecution of the Jews be classed? Essentially it was to remove a religion, but based on what, political ideas, race or religion?

[OldNick]

will religion be finished once it is proved once and for all we are not the only intelligent species in the Universe. Surely that would make religion null and void?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

How would Hitlers persecution of the Jews be classed? Essentially it was to remove a religion, but based on what, political ideas, race or religion?

 

Think Hitler was an Atheist, though I may be wrong? Seem to recall they did set up a form of Nazi Church (probably not exactly a religion) that was largely for show.

 

But it was certainly a race/politics thing.

[farawaysaint]

will religion be finished once it is proved once and for all we are not the only intelligent species in the Universe. Surely that would make religion null and void?

 

Considering Pope Francis has indicated his willingness to babtise aliens I highly doubt it.

[Minty]

will religion be finished once it is proved once and for all we are not the only intelligent species in the Universe. Surely that would make religion null and void?

 

Unlikely, given that religion is often about interpreting the written text there will no doubt be many who will interpret passages of the Bible or others to show that other species are possible and that God created them too. And, no doubt, many other interpretations and justifications to maintain beliefs.

 

That said, I personally think that, given the size of the universe in terms of distance and time, it is unlikely we'll ever discover another intelligent species in the time that ours exists.

[OldNick]

Considering Pope Francis has indicated his willingness to babtise aliens I highly doubt it.

lol,i assume they will then tell everyone God looks different on different days of the week.My memory of the Bible is scant but did he not make us in his image?

[Big Bad Bob]

How would Hitlers persecution of the Jews be classed? Essentially it was to remove a religion, but based on what, political ideas, race or religion?

 

Hitler had never given up his dream of being an artist and after leaving school he left for Vienna to pursue his dream. However, his life was shattered when, aged 18, his mother died of cancer. Witnesses say that he spent hours just staring at her dead body and drawing sketches of it as she lay on her death bed.

In Vienna, the Vienna Academy of Art, rejected his application as "he had no School Leaving Certificate". His drawings which he presented as evidence of his ability, were rejected as they had too few people in them. The examining board did not just want a landscape artist.

Without work and without any means to support himself, Hitler, short of money lived in a doss house with tramps. He spent his time painting post cards which he hoped to sell and clearing pathways of snow. It was at this stage in his life - about 1908 - that he developed a hatred of the Jews.

He was convinced that it was a Jewish professor that had rejected his art work; he became convinced that a Jewish doctor had been responsible for his mother’s death; he cleared the snow-bound paths of beautiful town houses in Vienna where rich people lived and he became convinced that only Jews lived in these homes. By 1910, his mind had become warped and his hatred of the Jews - known as anti-Semitism - had become set.

Hitler called his five years in Vienna "five years of hardship and misery". In his book called "Mein Kampf", Hitler made it clear that his time in Vienna was entirely the fault of the Jews - "I began to hate them".

 

YMMV

[OldNick]

Unlikely, given that religion is often about interpreting the written text there will no doubt be many who will interpret passages of the Bible or others to show that other species are possible and that God created them too. And, no doubt, many other interpretations and justifications to maintain beliefs.

 

That said, I personally think that, given the size of the universe in terms of distance and time, it is unlikely we'll ever discover another intelligent species in the time that ours exists.

A bit like Nostrodamus then.

[farawaysaint]

Unlikely, given that religion is often about interpreting the written text there will no doubt be many who will interpret passages of the Bible or others to show that other species are possible and that God created them too. And, no doubt, many other interpretations and justifications to maintain beliefs.

 

That said, I personally think that, given the size of the universe in terms of distance and time, it is unlikely we'll ever discover another intelligent species in the time that ours exists.

 

Don't most estimates of the time it would take on average to evolve to the point of sentience mean that usually the relevant star would have burned out before species attained intelligence? We would probably run into life on other planets though.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Think Hitler was an Atheist, though I may be wrong? Seem to recall they did set up a form of Nazi Church (probably not exactly a religion) that was largely for show.

 

But it was certainly a race/politics thing.

 

It was a genuine question, I genuinely don't know what his reasons for it were.

[Minty]

Don't most estimates of the time it would take on average to evolve to the point of sentience mean that usually the relevant star would have burned out before species attained intelligence? We would probably run into life on other planets though.

 

Genuinely don't know, but can understand that that could be the case.

 

This is one hell of a tangent for this thread mind you...

[Unbelievable Jeff]

YMMV

 

What a nutcase.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

It was a genuine question, I genuinely don't know what his reasons for it were.

 

Indeed, I read it as such. I tried to answer as best I could, I'm a little rusty on Nazi history.

 

There's probably some posters who are better equipped to help.

[shurlock]

Calling MLG, calling MLG

 

To tell us all that there's no such thing as race.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Indeed, I read it as such. I tried to answer as best I could, I'm a little rusty on Nazi history.

 

There's probably some posters who are better equipped to help.

 

Just in case others didn't!

[shurlock]

Indeed, I read it as such. I tried to answer as best I could, I'm a little rusty on Nazi history.

 

There's probably some posters who are better equipped to help.

 

You only need to look at the entire history of the Nazi state to realise that it's aim was racial purity - from its prejudices towards not only Jews but also Sinti and Roma to the degree to which it drew on pseudo-scientific and intellectual trends in eugenics. Remember traditional religious persecution gave people an out-card through the opportunity to convert; Nazism by biologising religion made this impossible.

[Big Bad Bob]

What a nutcase.

 

His paternal grand-mother (I think) was Jewish and his father was very strict and totalitarian with him too, used to beat him on a regular basis.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You only need to look at the entire history of the Nazi state to realise that it's aim was racial purity - from its prejudices towards not only Jews but also Sinti and Roma to the degree to which it drew on pseudo-scientific and intellectual trends in eugenics. Remember traditional religious persecution gave people an out-card through the opportunity to convert; Nazism by biologising religion made this impossible.

 

Here Jeff, Shurlock has explained things better than I did*.

 

The point about Roma & Sinti folk is worth raising, I'd also throw Black people into the mix also as they were also in the sights of the Nazis as well.

 

The eugenics arguments they trumped up were the justification for 'euthanising' the disabled, those with mental illness/learning difficulties and of course homosexuals.

 

*Edit: re-reading that sound snarky, just to clarify I'm being sincere. T'was a good post.

[trousers]

will religion be finished once it is proved once and for all we are not the only intelligent species in the Universe. Surely that would make religion null and void?

 

[video=youtube_share;HVlM_6M-Xdw]

[Unbelievable Jeff]

[video=youtube_share;HVlM_6M-Xdw]

 

Great Christmas tune. Underrated story teller...

[saintbletch]

There are only 2 reasons to follow a religion. Cultural/community pressures or border-line mental illness.

 

I'm not a believer, and I don't often find myself agreeing with you, but I do agree that there are a lot of odd beliefs and rituals out there. That's f'sure.

 

Some do good, some do bad. Some involve peaceful worship, but others, especially where different factions have formed over time, pathetically turn to violence to prove and express their level of devotedness.

 

Islam is certainly one of the major belief systems that falls into this category, but let's not kid ourselves. There are thousands of belief systems around the world that express themselves through odd rituals, and that each turns a blind eye to violence, chauvinism and intimidation.

 

I'm not prepared to name them, because I don't think it's helpful to do so at this time, but we all know who they are.

 

Like all organised religions, it appears to me that they also need their 'Gods' and their 'Devils' - the good and the bad, the white and the black. Because, without the contrast of those on the 'other' side, they wouldn't be able to define themselves.

 

The most disturbing thing about the teachings of such fractured religions, is that they seem to only be able to describe or even identify themselves by how they differ from other factions on the other side of the schism!

 

It's pathetic.

 

And they do all this in the name of their Gods - who, were it possible for us to speak with them, would surely distance themselves from the behaviour of their 'devotees'.

 

After all, it's just a game.

 

I've even heard that some of the followers (that are either borderline mentally ill, or so pathetically weak that they bow to cultural/community pressure) take to the Internet to prove their devotedness.

 

Some such Internet worshipers have made as many as 11,365 contributions to Internet forums - weakly ascribing to unscientific concepts such as luck, prejudice and discrimination - pathetically allowing the emotional quality of their week to rest on the fortunes of 11 disciples' efforts to move encased air around a patch of grass.

 

Some of these 'posters' as they are known, will spend large tracts of their day, alone, in front of a keyboard, where they invest time fashioning a digital avatar that they send into this virtual world to represent their deepest thoughts, needs and desires.

 

In their twisted minds, these avatars (which we should remember do not actually exist) can become all that they are not - a sort of mental crutch for their deficiencies in the real world. These avatars can say all that their real self is unable or unwilling to.

 

The 'posts' that these oddballs make are similar to prayers to some. It takes faith to send some form of virtual message into the ether, without knowing if anyone will 'listen' and respond. But that lack of real-world feedback, doesn't stop these devotees from feverishly sharing their innermost thoughts with a hard disk drive.

 

If these zealots limited themselves to one prayer/post per day, do you realise that it would take over 31 years to rack up 11,365 posts? Each one made, to the unknowing and unseeing 'God' in the sky without any physical confirmation whatsoever that anyone 'real' has seen it. You can't dispute their faith, I guess.

 

I would love to see one of these weirdos try to explain their odd behaviour to, say, an integrated British Muslim as he unfolded his mat a few times a day to pray.

 

What on earth would that British Muslim think of such superstitious and strange behaviour?

 

Still, live and let live I say. I guess one man's weird is another man's wonderful.

 

In the spirit of satire #JeSuisCharlie.

[Sour Mash]

I'm not a believer, and I don't often find myself agreeing with you, but I do agree that there are a lot of odd beliefs and rituals out there. That's f'sure.

 

Some do good, some do bad. Some involve peaceful worship, but others, especially where different factions have formed over time, pathetically turn to violence to prove and express their level of devotedness.

 

Islam is certainly one of the major belief systems that falls into this category, but let's not kid ourselves. There are thousands of belief systems around the world that express themselves through odd rituals, and that each turns a blind eye to violence, chauvinism and intimidation.

 

I'm not prepared to name them, because I don't think it's helpful to do so at this time, but we all know who they are.

 

Like all organised religions, it appears to me that they also need their 'Gods' and their 'Devils' - the good and the bad, the white and the black. Because, without the contrast of those on the 'other' side, they wouldn't be able to define themselves.

 

The most disturbing thing about the teachings of such fractured religions, is that they seem to only be able to describe or even identify themselves by how they differ from other factions on the other side of the schism!

 

It's pathetic.

 

And they do all this in the name of their Gods - who, were it possible for us to speak with them, would surely distance themselves from the behaviour of their 'devotees'.

 

After all, it's just a game.

 

I've even heard that some of the followers (that are either borderline mentally ill, or so pathetically weak that they bow to cultural/community pressure) take to the Internet to prove their devotedness.

 

Some such Internet worshipers have made as many as 11,365 contributions to Internet forums - weakly ascribing to unscientific concepts such as luck, prejudice and discrimination - pathetically allowing the emotional quality of their week to rest on the fortunes of 11 disciples' efforts to move encased air around a patch of grass.

 

Some of these 'posters' as they are known, will spend large tracts of their day, alone, in front of a keyboard, where they invest time fashioning a digital avatar that they send into this virtual world to represent their deepest thoughts, needs and desires.

 

In their twisted minds, these avatars (which we should remember do not actually exist) can become all that they are not - a sort of mental crutch for their deficiencies in the real world. These avatars can say all that their real self is unable or unwilling to.

 

The 'posts' that these oddballs make are similar to prayers to some. It takes faith to send some form of virtual message into the ether, without knowing if anyone will 'listen' and respond. But that lack of real-world feedback, doesn't stop these devotees from feverishly sharing their innermost thoughts with a hard disk drive.

 

If these zealots limited themselves to one prayer/post per day, do you realise that it would take over 31 years to rack up 11,365 posts? Each one made, to the unknowing and unseeing 'God' in the sky without any physical confirmation whatsoever that anyone 'real' has seen it. You can't dispute their faith, I guess.

 

I would love to see one of these weirdos try to explain their odd behaviour to, say, an integrated British Muslim as he unfolded his mat a few times a day to pray.

 

What on earth would that British Muslim think of such superstitious and strange behaviour?

 

Still, live and let live I say. I guess one man's weird is another man's wonderful.

 

In the spirit of satire #JeSuisCharlie.

Great effort.

 

Following a football team and hoping they do well is the same as believing and devoutly following the teachings of a man in the sky

[Pancake]

J'adore Bletch

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Great effort.

 

Following a football team and hoping they do well is the same as believing and devoutly following the teachings of a man in the sky

 

Both ultimately as pointless as the other.

 

And well done Bletch.

[Sour Mash]

Both ultimately as pointless as the other.

 

And well done Bletch.

But the difference is one is done because the individual chooses to do it, the other is followed because a man in the sky, an ancient book tells them to do it, or they feel they can't let their community down. A clear difference. I don't know of anyone that feels they can't eat a certain food because of the football team they follow

[Unbelievable Jeff]

But the difference is one is done because the individual chooses to do it, the other is followed because a man in the sky, an ancient book tells them to do it, or they feel they can't let their community down. A clear difference. I don't know of anyone that feels they can't eat a certain food because of the football team they follow

 

That's completely untrue. You say that nobody decides to go to church, or to a Mosque etc because they want something else in their life, it has to be under coercion of some kind?

[Sour Mash]

That's completely untrue. You say that nobody decides to go to church, or to a Mosque etc because they want something else in their life?

So they're going because they want something else in their life, not bcause they believe in that religion.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

That's completely untrue. You say that nobody decides to go to church, or to a Mosque etc because they want something else in their life, it has to be under coercion of some kind?

 

Or mental illness apparently.

 

Tolerance!

[Sour Mash]

http://inktank.fi/the-10-smartest-ricky-gervais-tweets-about-religion/

[Big Bad Bob]

But the difference is one is done because the individual chooses to do it, the other is followed because a man in the sky, an ancient book tells them to do it, or they feel they can't let their community down. A clear difference. I don't know of anyone that feels they can't eat a certain food because of the football team they follow

 

******, when Ty started sponsoring the Blue Phew I went on a crusade against small fluffy toys, ritual burning in the back garden....

 

And my subscription to GobShite was recently cancelled...

[saintbletch]

But the difference is one is done because the individual chooses to do it, the other is followed because a man in the sky, an ancient book tells them to do it, or they feel they can't let their community down. A clear difference. I don't know of anyone that feels they can't eat a certain food because of the football team they follow

 

Talk to Turkish, about that.

 

BTW, I don't know anyone who can recall all the prime numbers under 10,000,000. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but I'm trying to ape your debating style.

 

Great effort.

 

Following a football team and hoping they do well is the same as believing and devoutly following the teachings of a man in the sky

 

So, you do think they are the same?

 

We're making progress.

 

I'd tend to agree, but I wouldn't go as far as you by saying they are the same.

 

Similar certainly. But the same, no, not quite.

 

Talking of men in the Sky.

 

 

This man's flesh was once put to use by a football club, but this man's flesh has long since rotted into dust.

 

How odd.

 

Talking of another man in the sky.

 

 

This man is long dead too.

 

Yet some people regularly come together and sing his name.

 

Do they think he can hear them, do you think?

 

There's some really odd behaviour.

 

So, you think that elephants should be put to use for commercial logging?

[Big Bad Bob]

But the difference is one is done because the individual chooses to do it, the other is followed because a man in the sky, an ancient book tells them to do it, or they feel they can't let their community down. A clear difference. I don't know of anyone that feels they can't eat a certain food because of the football team they follow

 

Oh, and what about Sunderland? The whole town stopped eating Sugar Puffs after the Honey Monster appeared in an advert wearing a Newcastle strip...

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Oh, and what about Sunderland? The whole town stopped eating Sugar Puffs after the Honey Monster appeared in an advert wearing a Newcastle strip...

 

Newcastle fans are worse than any other fans. I found this image that proves it, I can't find any other examples of football related violence:

 

[Sour Mash]

Talk to Turkish, about that.

 

BTW, I don't know anyone who can recall all the prime numbers under 10,000,000. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but I'm trying to ape your debating style.

 

 

 

So, you do think they are the same?

 

We're making progress.

 

I'd tend to agree, but I wouldn't go as far as you by saying they are the same.

 

Similar certainly. But the same, no, not quite.

 

Talking of men in the Sky.

 

 

This man's flesh was once put to use by a football club, but this man's flesh has long since rotted into dust.

 

How odd.

 

Talking of another man in the sky.

 

 

This man is long dead too.

 

Yet some people regularly come together and sing his name.

 

Do they think he can hear them, do you think?

 

There's some really odd behaviour.

 

So, you think that elephants should be put to use for commercial logging?

[saintbletch]

Oh, and what about Sunderland? The whole town stopped eating Sugar Puffs after the Honey Monster appeared in an advert wearing a Newcastle strip...

 

I knew I could count on you to bring high-brow cultural references to answer Sour Mash's tangential questions, 3B.

 

Ta.

 

With all his complex questions, we just need an assault course and it would be like an episode of the Cretin Factor.