France: Charlie Hebdo shootings

[hypochondriac]

And you think it's a good thing, but aren't able to explain why. Fair enough.

 

Erm I did explain why. I believe that multiculturalism is a good thing as long as everyone is of the mindset that they want to contribute to society and improve things for all. I welcome everyone to come to the west if they don't want to hurt others and have the skills and ideas to improve their lives and the lives of others. This includes people of all religions regardless of what they believe. I don't agree with radicals from any walk of life and I think every effort should be used to stop extremists wherever they may be. That doesn't mean I consider all of Islam to be an evil thing (or any religion).

 

The movement of Muslim into many countries in the West is a positive thing in the same way that multiculturalism is a positive thing across society. In general it encourages creativity, promotes understanding across cultures and in general means that people can assimilate into a culture quite seamlessly.

 

My view is formed from knowing many Muslims personally and having spoke to them about their faith that they believe passionately in but also about their deep love for the UK where they now live. Of course this is the view for the vast vast majority of Muslims. Where do you derive your contrary view from?

[Viking Warrior]

Yep. How many radical islamists do you reckon there are as a percentage of Muslims on the earth?

 

Hypo and on a slight different point of view of the OP, do you include the taliban in your equation about radical islamists?

 

Ask Malala and All the woman in afghan and paksistan (northern areas) for their views

 

Women dont have a say let alone get an education under taliban doctrine

[Sour Mash]

Erm I did explain why. I believe that multiculturalism is a good thing as long as everyone is of the mindset that they want to contribute to society and improve things for all. I welcome everyone to come to the west if they don't want to hurt others and have the skills and ideas to improve their lives and the lives of others. This includes people of all religions regardless of what they believe. I don't agree with radicals from any walk of life and I think every effort should be used to stop extremists wherever they may be. That doesn't mean I consider all of Islam to be an evil thing (or any religion).

 

The movement of Muslim into many countries in the West is a positive thing in the same way that multiculturalism is a positive thing across society. In general it encourages creativity, promotes understanding across cultures and in general means that people can assimilate into a culture quite seamlessly.

 

My view is formed from knowing many Muslims personally and having spoke to them about their faith that they believe passionately in but also about their deep love for the UK where they now live. Of course this is the view for the vast vast majority of Muslims. Where do you derive your contrary view from?

You say its a good, positive thing, but still don't say why.

[View From The Top]

The point is that Islam is a broad church (pun) like Christianity and Western Islam is no more reactionary than the Catholic church , as here

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/20/muslim-council-of-britain-marriage-equality-for-gays-unnecessary-and-unhelpful/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20771215

 

A point lost on the vast majority.

[hypochondriac]

Fair enough. I think its nuts.

 

I love the care and effort Minty took to craft an intelligent reply only for you to give your four word excuse for a response.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The point is that Islam is a broad church (pun) like Christianity and Western Islam is no more reactionary than the Catholic church , as here

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/20/muslim-council-of-britain-marriage-equality-for-gays-unnecessary-and-unhelpful/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20771215

 

Why are people bending over backwards to try and claim the Muslim religion is somehow equatable with Christianity . I'm not a Christian man , but it's clear that certain aspects of Muslim opinion is at odds with our society . If you asked " should women be allowed to behave exactly the same as men, be allowed to marry who they want and wear what they want " mainstream British opinion , excluding Muslims would probarly agree except for the odd fruit cake , would the same % of Muslims agree ?

[View From The Top]

You say its a good, positive thing, but still don't say why.

 

Perhaps you'll just have to accept that many of us don't see every Muslim as a terrorist and aren't blaming the majority for the actions of a few.

[hypochondriac]

You say its a good, positive thing, but still don't say why.

 

yes I did! I literally said the reason it was a positive thing in the response. Do you need reading lessons?

[Sour Mash]

Perhaps you'll just have to accept that many of us don't see every Muslim as a terrorist and aren't blaming the majority for the actions of a few.

I don't see every muslim as a terrorist and have never stated as such, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Jonnyboy]

Muslim on Radio 5 live this morning said he loved Allah more than anyone else including his family, and would die for Allah. Would Christians die for an 800 year old warlord I think not. This is what's wrong with Islam its not moved on in nearly a thousand years whilst the rest of humanity has.

 

In 1875 I read that the age of consent in England was raised from 10 to 13.

[hypochondriac]

I don't see every muslim as a terrorist and have never stated as such, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

We've established your views, so what is your solution? Throw out the Muslims perhaps? Maybe a quota system? I reckon some sort of badge (possibly a yellow star) would be good so we can quickly ide tiny those who might be a danger to Western society.

[View From The Top]

Why are people bending over backwards to try and claim the Muslim religion is somehow equatable with Christianity . I'm not a Christian man , but it's clear that certain aspects of Muslim opinion is at odds with our society . If you asked " should women be allowed to behave exactly the same as men, be allowed to marry who they want and wear what they want " mainstream British opinion , excluding Muslims would probarly agree except for the odd fruit cake , would the same % of Muslims agree ?

 

Sh*t loads would, especially the young. I teach 100s of young Muslims and 99% of those born here are just like the non Muslim teenagers, with the exact same concerns. Not a single girl wears a veil and most are dressed just like their non Muslim friends with the exception that around 1/2 wear a head scarf as well.

 

The boys are interested I girls, football, cars, Xbox and not getting married to "a pa ki peasant".

[Sour Mash]

yes I did! I literally said the reason it was a positive thing in the response. Do you need reading lessons?

"In general it encourages creativity, promotes understanding across cultures and in general means that people can assimilate into a culture quite seamlessly." Is that it? That's what the growth of Islam across the West has given us

[badgerx16]

Why are people bending over backwards to try and claim the Muslim religion is somehow equatable with Christianity . I'm not a Christian man , but it's clear that certain aspects of Muslim opinion is at odds with our society . If you asked " should women be allowed to behave exactly the same as men, be allowed to marry who they want and wear what they want " mainstream British opinion , excluding Muslims would probarly agree except for the odd fruit cake , would the same % of Muslims agree ?

You could probably say the same for Orthodox Jews.

[Minty]

"In general it encourages creativity, promotes understanding across cultures and in general means that people can assimilate into a culture quite seamlessly." Is that it? That's what the growth of Islam across the West has given us

 

If you can't appreciate what is good about multiculturalism, what is good about having a better understanding of different faiths and beliefs, what is good about sharing our knowledge and experiences and theories for improving our future lives, and you think that we are better off in isolation, then I fear this conversation is going nowhere.

Edited 8 January, 2015 by Minty

[badgerx16]

In 1875 I read that the age of consent in England was raised from 10 to 13.

 

Bloody hell, how old are you ?

[hypochondriac]

"In general it encourages creativity, promotes understanding across cultures and in general means that people can assimilate into a culture quite seamlessly." Is that it? That's what the growth of Islam across the West has given us

 

Hold on, are you suggesting there are no positives to any sort of immigration to any country?

[hypochondriac]

Sh*t loads would, especially the young. I teach 100s of young Muslims and 99% of those born here are just like the non Muslim teenagers, with the exact same concerns. Not a single girl wears a veil and most are dressed just like their non Muslim friends with the exception that around 1/2 wear a head scarf as well.

 

The boys are interested I girls, football, cars, Xbox and not getting married to "a pa ki peasant".

 

And that is entirely my experience too. It's weird though, it appears that those who agree with us are the people who have met or who know quite a few Muslims whereas those demonising them appear to have little or no relationships with them. Funny that!

[hypochondriac]

A friend of mine is a Muslim and was born in this country. Her mum is English and her dad came to study here from Iraq in the seventies and then saddam took power and it was no longer safe for him to return home. Immediately after 9/11 she was 14.

 

Her dad was thrown off a bus by a crowd because he looked like an Arab and was wearing a rucksack. She was shouted and sworn at in London and was told to say she was Indian if asked to avoid confrontation.

 

Thoughts Sour Mash?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

And that is entirely my experience too. It's weird though, it appears that those who agree with us are the people who have met or who know quite a few Muslims whereas those demonising them appear to have little or no relationships with them. Funny that!

 

Yup, I spent a chunk of my childhood in Harrow which has a large Asian and Muslim (also Sikh & Hindu) community. My school was probably a 60/40 white/asian (that's a rough estimation on my experience - not a definitive statistic) split. As VFTT many were exactly the same as me as a teen - interested in Football, Music, Videogames & girls (I've not changed a great deal really). They were practising Muslims, and were perfectly happy in the UK.

 

FWIW, several of those I still have as friends on Facebook were as upset and appalled by yesterdays awful attack.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

A friend of mine is a Muslim and was born in this country. Her mum is English and her dad came to study here from Iraq in the seventies and then saddam took power and it was no longer safe for him to return home. Immediately after 9/11 she was 14.

 

Her dad was thrown off a bus by a crowd because he looked like an Arab and was wearing a rucksack. She was shouted and sworn at in London and was told to say she was Indian if asked to avoid confrontation.

 

Thoughts Sour Mash?

 

This is so common it is unbelievable . It is why I and, I'm assuming, others who feel similarly are careful to not place this blame solely on Islam. It has real world consequences for perfectly pleasant, innocent people. Which then of course perpetuates the problem.

 

You tell a group of people they are evil enough times, and harass them constantly, some of them are going to become evil.

Edited 8 January, 2015 by KelvinsRightGlove
Changed untrue for unbelievable. Poor choice of wording.

[Verbal]

Surely this particular incident is about imposing some sort of Islamic blasphemy law via the back door. I don't think Muslim or Muslim communities should be forced to condemn this , as it goes without saying . However , I would be interested in their views on whether the pizz can be taken out of their religion .

 

If you ask most Muslims this question, the vast majority will tell you that mockery of Mohammad is completely out of bounds – and many otherwise moderate Muslims will also say that the penalty for such offence should be severe.

 

I’d suggest that this opinion holds such powerful sway not out of principle but out of fear. Extremists in much of the Muslim world have threatened reprisals, and brutally carried them out, against those they consider transgressors against their viciously narrow, medieval interpretation of Islam. And such is the scale of this violence that it has successfully cowed governments and law courts in the Muslim world.

 

In Pakistan, for example, the blasphemy laws (shamefully introduced by the British) were considerably strengthened by the drooling idiot dictator Zia al-Huq. He added the death penalty to the list of draconian punishments for even the slightest of perceived ‘insults’.

 

Consequently, the Christian community in Pakistan – almost entirely poor and largely destitute, as prior to partition they were ‘untouchables’ - finds itself a constant target for this kind of accusation, and there are many on death row accused of blasphemy who have no chance of even a decent legal challenge.

 

Law courts in Pakistan simply will not contemplate dismissing the thin-to-non-existent evidence against Christian defendants out of fear of reprisals against judges and lawyers. A Christian politician was murdered for speaking up on behalf of a Christian woman falsely accused of blasphemy, and his son was kidnapped and remains missing.

 

Similarly, extremists’ predilections for honour killings, forced marriages and the imposition of the veil on women are tolerated rather than condemned out of fear of the consequences.

 

Is all this a problem with Islam itself? Well, yes it is. It is becoming a religion in which violent extremism increasingly has the loudest voice. A religion in which the majority of its adherents become fearful of even mildly liberal views on freedom of expression.

 

And that spills over to the West when we start thinking: Oh, well perhaps Charlie Ebdo shouldn’t have published mocking cartoons of Mohammad. This amounts to little more than blaming the victim – but, much worse, it is precisely the kind of capitulation to violent extremism that has already spread cancerously throughout the Muslim world.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Hold on, are you suggesting there are no positives to any sort of immigration to any country?

 

The questionable racist undertones of Sour Mash's posts are really quite alarming...

[Goatboy]

If you ask most Muslims this question, the vast majority will tell you that mockery of Mohammad is completely out of bounds – and many otherwise moderate Muslims will also say that the penalty for such offence should be severe.

 

I’d suggest that this opinion holds such powerful sway not out of principle but out of fear. Extremists in much of the Muslim world have threatened reprisals, and brutally carried them out, against those they consider transgressors against their viciously narrow, medieval interpretation of Islam. And such is the scale of this violence that it has successfully cowed governments and law courts in the Muslim world.

 

In Pakistan, for example, the blasphemy laws (shamefully introduced by the British) were considerably strengthened by the drooling idiot dictator Zia al-Huq. He added the death penalty to the list of draconian punishments for even the slightest of perceived ‘insults’.

 

Consequently, the Christian community in Pakistan – almost entirely poor and largely destitute, as prior to partition they were ‘untouchables’ - finds itself a constant target for this kind of accusation, and there are many on death row accused of blasphemy who have no chance of even a decent legal challenge.

 

Law courts in Pakistan simply will not contemplate dismissing the thin-to-non-existent evidence against Christian defendants out of fear of reprisals against judges and lawyers. A Christian politician was murdered for speaking up on behalf of a Christian woman falsely accused of blasphemy, and his son was kidnapped and remains missing.

 

Similarly, extremists’ predilections for honour killings, forced marriages and the imposition of the veil on women are tolerated rather than condemned out of fear of the consequences.

 

Is all this a problem with Islam itself? Well, yes it is. It is becoming a religion in which violent extremism increasingly has the loudest voice. A religion in which the majority of its adherents become fearful of even mildly liberal views on freedom of expression.

 

And that spills over to the West when we start thinking: Oh, well perhaps Charlie Ebdo shouldn’t have published mocking cartoons of Mohammad. This amounts to little more than blaming the victim – but, much worse, it is precisely the kind of capitulation to violent extremism that has already spread cancerously throughout the Muslim world.

 

Good post.

[Sour Mash]

A friend of mine is a Muslim and was born in this country. Her mum is English and her dad came to study here from Iraq in the seventies and then saddam took power and it was no longer safe for him to return home. Immediately after 9/11 she was 14.

 

Her dad was thrown off a bus by a crowd because he looked like an Arab and was wearing a rucksack. She was shouted and sworn at in London and was told to say she was Indian if asked to avoid confrontation.

 

Thoughts Sour Mash?

I think that's disgraceful behaviour. Hardly common in London though thankfully.

[Sour Mash]

The questionable racist undertones of Sour Mash's posts are really quite alarming...

Which rae have I offended with my posts?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Which rae have I offended with my posts?

 

Alex...

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Which rae have I offended with my posts?

 

In all seriousness though, that's why I wrote undertones as there is nothing explicit. If you read your posts you don't form a good opinion of your character.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I think that's disgraceful behaviour. Hardly common in London though thankfully.

 

It's more common than you would think, sadly.

[Sour Mash]

In all seriousness though, that's why I wrote undertones as there is nothing explicit. If you read your posts you don't form a good opinion of your character.

Yes, but which race?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Yes, but which race?

 

Muslims. You can't say that Muslims have a higher proportion of nutters than other races without having proof for it, or funnily enough, it seems you have a problem with Muslims.

[Sour Mash]

Muslims. You can't say that Muslims have a higher proportion of nutters than other races without having proof for it, or funnily enough, it seems you have a problem with Muslims.

Muslims aren't a race

 

I've previously posted a link of recent muslim events, if you've bothered to follow the thread.

 

Just to clarify though, you're saying that there isn't a greater problem of Islamic incidents across the world, compared to say Hindus for example?

[hypochondriac]

In all seriousness though, that's why I wrote undertones as there is nothing explicit. If you read your posts you don't form a good opinion of your character.

 

Yep. Just comes across as quite ignorant to be honest. I would be interested to know his experience with Muslims though.

[hypochondriac]

Muslims aren't a race

 

I've previously posted a link of recent muslim events, if you've bothered to follow the thread.

 

Just to clarify though, you're saying that there isn't a greater problem of Islamic incidents across the world, compared to say Hindus for example?

 

Again though, just because some nutters purport to do something in the name of Islam does not mean it is an Islamic incident. It simply means that there are a number willing to use Islam as a cover to commit their atrocities. I feel that we are going in circles here and I'm still unsure what your point is nor what solutions you are offering. If Islam is a religion practiced solely by nutters then what do you think should be done? What are the practical steps to take to reduce terrorist attacks in the West?

[hypochondriac]

It's more common than you would think, sadly.

 

It's easy to dismiss something like that when there is no chance of it happening to you (and when it doesn't support your argument.)

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Muslims aren't a race

 

I've previously posted a link of recent muslim events, if you've bothered to follow the thread.

 

Just to clarify though, you're saying that there isn't a greater problem of Islamic incidents across the world, compared to say Hindus for example?

 

Meh, it seems racist to me.

 

Dress it up any way you want, you're coming across as a racist, and i guarantee if am not the only one to think this.

Edited 8 January, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Sour Mash]

Again though, just because some nutters purport to do something in the name of Islam does not mean it is an Islamic incident.

It does actually.

[Sour Mash]

Your posts are against Muslims and their acts, not against Islam. Hence you're racist against Muslims.

 

Dress it up any way you want, you're coming across as a racist, and i guarantee if am not the only one to think this.

You can't be racist against a religion. Just a bit of education for you there.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You can't be racist against a religion. Just a bit of education for you there.

 

Fair enough, but to me you seem to be discriminating against a group of people, which seems ignorant beyond belief.

Edited 8 January, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Sour Mash]

Fair enough.

No problem, any time.

[hypochondriac]

Meh, it seems racist to me.

 

Dress it up any way you want, you're coming across as a racist, and i guarantee if am not the only one to think this.

 

Maybe racist was the wrong word but the effect is the same. Is there a more succinct phrase than "deeply intolerant of different beliefs and of foreigners in general?"

[hypochondriac]

It does actually.

 

So anything the Westboro Baptist church do is "a Christian incident?" Andres Breivik shootings were "A Christian incident?" Don't be a fool. I could kill someone tomorrow and claim I did it in the name of Jesus. Doesn't make it a Christian incident.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

No problem, any time.

 

So it's fine to discriminate against religions as long as you don't mention colour? Blimey.

[Sour Mash]

So anything the Westboro Baptist church do is "a Christian incident?" Andres Breivik shootings were "A Christian incident?" Don't be a fool. I could kill someone tomorrow and claim I did it in the name of Jesus. Doesn't make it a Christian incident.

Yep, if they're carried out in the name of Christanity, they are Christian Incidents and just as bad.

[Sour Mash]

So it's fine to discriminate against religions as long as you don't mention colour? Blimey.

Who have I discriminated against? You're telling me that there are the same number of Hindu related terrorist incidets the world over as muslim ones? That's a bit of mad viewpoint.

[saintbletch]

Maybe racist was the wrong word but the effect is the same. Is there a more succinct phrase than "deeply intolerant of different beliefs and of foreigners in general?"

 

Bigot?

[Batman]

If you ask most Muslims this question, the vast majority will tell you that mockery of Mohammad is completely out of bounds – and many otherwise moderate Muslims will also say that the penalty for such offence should be severe.

 

I’d suggest that this opinion holds such powerful sway not out of principle but out of fear. Extremists in much of the Muslim world have threatened reprisals, and brutally carried them out, against those they consider transgressors against their viciously narrow, medieval interpretation of Islam. And such is the scale of this violence that it has successfully cowed governments and law courts in the Muslim world.

 

In Pakistan, for example, the blasphemy laws (shamefully introduced by the British) were considerably strengthened by the drooling idiot dictator Zia al-Huq. He added the death penalty to the list of draconian punishments for even the slightest of perceived ‘insults’.

 

Consequently, the Christian community in Pakistan – almost entirely poor and largely destitute, as prior to partition they were ‘untouchables’ - finds itself a constant target for this kind of accusation, and there are many on death row accused of blasphemy who have no chance of even a decent legal challenge.

 

Law courts in Pakistan simply will not contemplate dismissing the thin-to-non-existent evidence against Christian defendants out of fear of reprisals against judges and lawyers. A Christian politician was murdered for speaking up on behalf of a Christian woman falsely accused of blasphemy, and his son was kidnapped and remains missing.

 

Similarly, extremists’ predilections for honour killings, forced marriages and the imposition of the veil on women are tolerated rather than condemned out of fear of the consequences.

 

Is all this a problem with Islam itself? Well, yes it is. It is becoming a religion in which violent extremism increasingly has the loudest voice. A religion in which the majority of its adherents become fearful of even mildly liberal views on freedom of expression.

 

And that spills over to the West when we start thinking: Oh, well perhaps Charlie Ebdo shouldn’t have published mocking cartoons of Mohammad. This amounts to little more than blaming the victim – but, much worse, it is precisely the kind of capitulation to violent extremism that has already spread cancerously throughout the Muslim world.

 

agree with this

[sadoldgit]

I think in the main we are dealing with people who are psychopaths who have hitched their wagon to Islam. I am sure there are many Muslims who wouldnt be happy if their God was mocked but doubt if they would arm themselves to the teeth and go and massacre some pen pushers. Most religions seem to have some followers who seem to think that no one else is allowed to have any other faith and will take things to the nth degree sadly. Christians are still maiming and killing each other in some parts of the British Isles.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Who have I discriminated against? You're telling me that there are the same number of Hindu related terrorist incidets the world over as muslim ones? That's a bit of mad viewpoint.

 

I would say there are more Christian on Muslim crimes worldwide than vice versa, yes.

 

How many of these do you think we're committed by Christians:

 

In December, the Press Association revealed that UK anti-Muslim hate crime ‘soars’ across police forces in England & Wales, with 500 “Islamophobic crimes” recorded by the MET police alone (the figures could be much higher: nearly half of the 43 forces failed to reveal how many hate crimes had targeted Muslims).

Edited 8 January, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[hypochondriac]

I think in the main we are dealing with people who are psychopaths who have hitched their wagon to Islam. I am sure there are many Muslims who wouldnt be happy if their God was mocked but doubt if they would arm themselves to the teeth and go and massacre some pen pushers. Most religions seem to have some followers who seem to think that no one else is allowed to have any other faith and will take things to the nth degree sadly. Christians are still maiming and killing each other in some parts of the British Isles.

 

This is the point made by a Muslim on five live earlier. Said he was offended by the cartoons but that living in a society is about compromise.