Batman Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 As I said in my post (the actual thrust of which you ignored) it may have something to do with the fact that many have been radicalised by extremists as a result of the turbulence caused by Western intervention in the Middle East. Being hit by drone strikes for the best part of a decade has led to a lot of anti-Western sentiment, which extremists have capitalised on and harnessed that anger into vengeance against those who have perpetrated this. Add that into a general feeling of persecution against Muslims worldwide since 9/11 and that can go towards brainwashing people into committing acts like this in the name of "retaliation". what about before 9/11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 kicking off again in France.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901670/Gunman-arrested-Paris-police-officers-seriously-wounded.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 what about before 9/11? And 9/11 itself. That was all the West's fault as well, all that provacation and persecution of muslims at fault again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 France wasn't involved or support the invasion of Iraq, yet still get attacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Doesn't surprise me so many are dismissing the barbarism and blaming the west. Fact that spurred on by actions of their enemy does not in any way explain or excuse the violent acts in the name of Islam. Oh and the those who quote old testament laws from Deuteronomy as comparison just show their lack of understanding of the Christian faith. Same thickos will normally say all wars are caused by religion and then talk of the crusades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 The people carrying out these attacks are doing so inspired by the teachings if Islam. As a culture it is out-dated, undemocratic, against freedom of speech and freedom of expression, is spreading aggresively across Western civilization. The problem is, it looks like a section of Islam can't and won't change and continues down this road, year after year. Now, I've answered your questions, you can answer mine. Bletch has done a much better job of answering your questions above. Why is it that 99% of Muslims are inspired by the teaching of Islam yet aren't going out to kill and murder? Could it perhaps be because Islam isn't actually telling people to go out and murder others at all and that the teaching has been perverted by a small minority for their own interests? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Funny old thread as those I normally have different views than I am in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 what about before 9/11? Clearly there has been a rise in this sort of thing since 9/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Bletch has done a much better job of answering your questions above. Why is it that 99% of Muslims are inspired by the teaching of Islam yet aren't going out to kill and murder? Could it perhaps be because Islam isn't actually telling people to go out and murder others at all and that the teaching has been perverted by a small minority for their own interests? Just a thought. A small minority that control large parts of Syria and Iraq? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Doesn't surprise me so many are dismissing the barbarism and blaming the west. Fact that spurred on by actions of their enemy does not in any way explain or excuse the violent acts in the name of Islam. Oh and the those who quote old testament laws from Deuteronomy as comparison just show their lack of understanding of the Christian faith. Same thickos will normally say all wars are caused by religion and then talk of the crusades. I'm not solely blaming the West. They have to take their share of the blame though and it can't be denied that they have contributed to all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 A small minority that control large parts of Syria and Iraq? Yep. How many radical islamists do you reckon there are as a percentage of Muslims on the earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 I'm not solely blaming the West. They have to take their share of the blame though and it can't be denied that they have contributed to all this. Indeed. It's entirely possible to say that what happened yesterday was utter despicable (of course it was, I cannot see anyone saying otherwise), but the West has played a role in stoking ill-feeling toward it over a number of years due to a number of policies/actions. Not just Iraq, ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Yep. How many radical islamists do you reckon there are as a percentage of Muslims on the earth? No idea yet are you are happy to dismiss it as a few nutters in isolated incidents that will fade away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 8 January, 2015 A small minority that control large parts of Syria and Iraq? A small minority that control large parts of Syria and Iraq, previously (and perhaps still) funded by proxy by nations like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel. Remember William Hague making the case for British troops to fight beside those attacking Assad? Our Al-Qaeda allies? Little happens in a vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 A small minority that control large parts of Syria and Iraq? Due to the breakdown of law & order in those countries - precipitated by 'the West' ? The control of the 'caliphate' isn't just down to IS, there are other groups 'along for the ride', such as the local militias with their own particular axes to grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 No idea yet are you are happy to dismiss it as a few nutters in isolated incidents that will fade away? Who said anything about fading away? I expect over a long period of time something else will come and take their place as has happened through all of human history. And it is a few nutters clearly unless you think it's a large percentage of the Muslim population (in case you are under that illusion, it isn't.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Indeed. It's entirely possible to say that what happened yesterday was utter despicable (of course it was, I cannot see anyone saying otherwise), but the West has played a role in stoking ill-feeling toward it over a number of years due to a number of policies/actions. Not just Iraq, ffs. Saying it despicable is neither here nor there. What right-minded person would think otherwise? Bit like saying 'i'm not racist but....' when you come back with it's all the west's fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Why does Islam have such a higer proportion of these nutters? Do you think the growth of Islam in the Western world over the last 30 years is a good thing? Of course not all Muslims are responsible for the attacks. Islam can be at fault for these attacks without every Muslim being responsible. Bletch has done a much better job of answering your questions above. Why is it that 99% of Muslims are inspired by the teaching of Islam yet aren't going out to kill and murder? Could it perhaps be because Islam isn't actually telling people to go out and murder others at all and that the teaching has been perverted by a small minority for their own interests? Just a thought. I've taken the time to answer your questions, but you can't take the time to answer mine. Fair enough. Do you think the growth of Islam in the Western world over the last 30 years is a good thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Who said anything about fading away? I expect over a long period of time something else will come and take their place as has happened through all of human history. And it is a few nutters clearly unless you think it's a large percentage of the Muslim population (in case you are under that illusion, it isn't.) I am aware of that. Everyone is aware that it is not the vast majority. However there is a proliferation of Muslims who are being radicalised and is akin to being brainwashed into a death cult from where i satnd as there is zero tolerance of anyone who opposes their views - Muslims included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 I've taken the time to answer your questions, but you can't take the time to answer mine. Fair enough. Do you think the growth of Islam in the Western world over the last 30 years is a good thing? What do you mean by the growth of Islam? If you mean muslims living in the West then I have no problem with it at all. If you mean extremists being allowed to preach hate here then I agree they shouldn't be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 I think it's perfectly reasonable to discuss the possibility that actions of the West in some areas, amongst many other things have contributed to the motivations and justifications of the extremists... they are extremists after all and so their reactions to *anything* are likely to be extreme compared to most 'normal' people. The clue is in the name. All that matters to them is that they have justified their actions to themselves, not to anyone else. And whether we think the West's actions in Iraq or anywhere are appropriate or not doesn't matter - but we should acknowledge that every aggressive action taken (whatever the reasons behind it) may lead to reactions in some shape or form. The long-term key IMO, is continuing to improve education across the world to increase basic tolerance and respect for others so that less people are tempted to a cause that completely lacks tolerance and respect for others in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Do you think the growth of Islam in the Western world over the last 30 years is a good thing? Do you think it's a bad thing ? Sooner or later, everybody is going to have to realise that the human race needs to stop any form aggressive, self-interested, posturing and learn to tolerate each other. The concept of the USofA or Great Britain carrying out activities in the Middle East 'in our national interest' is just selfish exploitation in the quest for diminshing resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 What do you mean by the growth of Islam? If you mean muslims living in the West then I have no problem with it at all. If you mean extremists being allowed to preach hate here then I agree they shouldn't be here. How can the growth of Islam be seen as a good thing? What benefit has it brought? The majority of the developed world has thankfully moved on from following out-dated, regressive religions, but you see it's growth as a good thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 (edited) How can the growth of Islam be seen as a good thing? What benefit has it brought? The majority of the developed world has thankfully moved on from following out-dated, regressive religions, but you see it's growth as a good thing? What do you mean by the growth of Islam? What does that entail in the West? Do you mean Muslims living in Europe? Are you suggesting that Muslims should not be here? If that isn't what you are suggesting then what do you mean? I see allowing people who want to contribute to society and to practice their beliefs safely to live in the West is a good thing. Thankfully the vast vast majority of Muslims do that and I an thankful for them and that I live in a country that gives people the freedom to believe what they like. Edited 8 January, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 What do you mean by the growth of Islam? What does that entail in the West? Do you mean Muslims living in Europe? Are you suggesting that Muslims should not be here? If that isn't what you are suggesting then what do you mean? What do you think I mean by the growth of Islam? The increase in the Islamic population of the West. I think anyone that follows a religion devoutly in 2014 is backwards and a bit crazy, thankfully most of the western world has moved on from that a while ago. You however see its growth as a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 January, 2015 Author Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 How can the growth of Islam be seen as a good thing? What benefit has it brought? The majority of the developed world has thankfully moved on from following out-dated, regressive religions, but you see it's growth as a good thing? Maybe exposure to 'the West' will have a moderating effect on Muslims who move here, that can lead to a more 'enlightened' development of their 'regressive' religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Surely this particular incident is about imposing some sort of Islamic blasphemy law via the back door. I don't think Muslim or Muslim communities should be forced to condemn this , as it goes without saying . However , I would be interested in their views on whether the pizz can be taken out of their religion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 How can the growth of Islam be seen as a good thing? What benefit has it brought? The majority of the developed world has thankfully moved on from following out-dated, regressive religions, but you see it's growth as a good thing? You are still mixing up two separate things - the religion and the culture / education levels of some of the people who follow it. Middle class western Islam is like middle class western Christianity - pretty urbane and tolerant. Small village dirt road Islam is no more or less reactionary and violent than in small village dirt road Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Maybe exposure to 'the West' will have a moderating effect on Muslims who move here, that can lead to a more 'enlightened' development of their 'regressive' religion. Yeah, that seems to be working well of late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightysaints Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Muslim on Radio 5 live this morning said he loved Allah more than anyone else including his family, and would die for Allah. Would Christians die for an 800 year old warlord I think not. This is what's wrong with Islam its not moved on in nearly a thousand years whilst the rest of humanity has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 What do you think I mean by the growth of Islam? The increase in the Islamic population of the West. I think anyone that follows a religion devoutly in 2014 is backwards and a bit crazy, thankfully most of the western world has moved on from that a while ago. You however see its growth as a good thing. OK so you do believe that muslims living in the West is a bad thing. Apologies I thought your argument was slightly less xenophobic and borderline racist than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 What do you think I mean by the growth of Islam? The increase in the Islamic population of the West. I think anyone that follows a religion devoutly in 2014 is backwards and a bit crazy, thankfully most of the western world has moved on from that a while ago. You however see its growth as a good thing. Well at least we now know that you're intolerant of ALL religions, not just Islam... I was getting a bit concerned for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 You are still mixing up two separate things - the religion and the culture / education levels of some of the people who follow it. Middle class western Islam is like middle class western Christianity - pretty urbane and tolerant. Small village dirt road Islam is no more or less reactionary and violent than in small village dirt road Christianity. 'm not mixing two things up at all. Follow the quetions. I asked if he saw the growth of Islam as a good thing in Western Europe or not. I can't think of one good thing about it, regardless of terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Well at least we now know that you're intolerant of ALL religions, not just Islam... I was getting a bit concerned for awhile. You don't think following religion in 2014 is a bit nuts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 You are still mixing up two separate things - the religion and the culture / education levels of some of the people who follow it. Middle class western Islam is like middle class western Christianity - pretty urbane and tolerant. Small village dirt road Islam is no more or less reactionary and violent than in small village dirt road Christianity. These massacres seem to be often carried out by the Middle class western types though, doesn't seem to be many equivalents in other religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 OK so you do believe that muslims living in the West is a bad thing. Apologies I thought your argument was slightly less xenophobic and borderline racist than that. And you think it's a good thing, but aren't able to explain why. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 'm not mixing two things up at all. Follow the quetions. I asked if he saw the growth of Islam as a good thing in Western Europe or not. I can't think of one good thing about it, regardless of terrorism. How about 'Zakat'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 You are still mixing up two separate things - the religion and the culture / education levels of some of the people who follow it. Middle class western Islam is like middle class western Christianity - pretty urbane and tolerant. Small village dirt road Islam is no more or less reactionary and violent than in small village dirt road Christianity. How does your " middle class Western Islam " view women and gay rights and do they uphold the right of others to take the pizz or criticise their religion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightysaints Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 [h=1]Brunei bans Christmas: Islamic nation outlaws celebrating the festivities for fear of 'leading Muslims astray'[/h] Ban issued after local children seen in clothes 'that resemble Santa Claus' Oil-rich nation's population is made up of around 20 per cent non-muslims In April, Brunei shocked world by introducing new harsh sharia penal code Under the code limbs can be severed for theft and people stoned to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 I havent seen any evidence of that. The western terrorists all seem to be social misfits - either friendless loners or ex cons who have served time for drugs or theft. Both are easy meat for a preacher who tells them "its not your fault your a sad loser, its the fault of this sick society". Here is some free travel, money, having fun shooting guns and a corrupted ideology which makes you feel better about your sorry arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 (edited) How does your " middle class Western Islam " view women and gay rights and do they uphold the right of others to take the pizz or criticise their religion . http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2013/12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/02/emerging-muslim-movement-embraces-gay-and-interfaith-marriages-female-imams-and/ http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/06/19/south-africa-gay-imam-spreads-message-of-empowerment-when-it-comes-to-homosexuality-and-islam/ Edited 8 January, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 You don't think following religion in 2014 is a bit nuts? No. I don't call myself religious, and don't follow any recognised religion, but I do have beliefs and values, which are essentially, all that a religion is. Mine tend to be based on science and so I do find it difficult to discuss some issues with people who hold orthodox religious views sometimes. That said, I have some good friends who are dedicated Christians, who I have some fascinating conversations with about all sorts, because we respect each others beliefs and are comfortable having them challenged. I also recognise that human consciousness is a very complex thing and that there is comfort for many in having a system of shared beliefs. Also, that by far the greatest output from ALL religious individuals that I personally know, of all denominations, is love, care and compassion for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 How does your " middle class Western Islam " view women and gay rights and do they uphold the right of others to take the pizz or criticise their religion . 2 of the victims yesterday were Muslim, and doing precisely that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 (edited) http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2013/12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/02/emerging-muslim-movement-embraces-gay-and-interfaith-marriages-female-imams-and/ http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/06/19/south-africa-gay-imam-spreads-message-of-empowerment-when-it-comes-to-homosexuality-and-islam/ How on earth is that representative of mainstream Muslim opinion ? Had I posted a couple of people condoning attacks on infidels , you'll rightly say it's unrepresentative . What do you think mainstream Muslim opinion is regarding women's rights , gay rights and the right to laugh at or criticise the prophet . Is it as enlightened as the majority of the country? Edited 8 January, 2015 by Lord Duckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Without wishing to stir up a hornets nest, This is one atrocity that the conspiracy theorists seem to have left alone (Quite rightly to), when they have been all over other incidents within hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 No. I don't call myself religious, and don't follow any recognised religion, but I do have beliefs and values, which are essentially, all that a religion is. Mine tend to be based on science and so I do find it difficult to discuss some issues with people who hold orthodox religious views sometimes. That said, I have some good friends who are dedicated Christians, who I have some fascinating conversations with about all sorts, because we respect each others beliefs and are comfortable having them challenged. I also recognise that human consciousness is a very complex thing and that there is comfort for many in having a system of shared beliefs. Also, that by far the greatest output from ALL religious individuals that I personally know, of all denominations, is love, care and compassion for others. Fair enough. I think its nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Muslim on Radio 5 live this morning said he loved Allah more than anyone else including his family, and would die for Allah. Would Christians die for an 800 year old warlord I think not. This is what's wrong with Islam its not moved on in nearly a thousand years whilst the rest of humanity has. Many would die for their beliefs but even if that were wrong, you aren't suggesting that that one person on radio 5 is speaking for all muslims are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 How on earth is that representative of mainstream Muslim opinion ? Had I posted a couple of people condoning attacks on infidels , you'll rightly say it's unrepresentative . What do you think mainstream Muslim opinion is regarding women's rights , gay rights and the right to laugh at or criticise the prophet . Is it as enlightened as the majority of the country? The point is that Islam is a broad church (pun) like Christianity and Western Islam is no more reactionary than the Catholic church , as here http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/20/muslim-council-of-britain-marriage-equality-for-gays-unnecessary-and-unhelpful/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20771215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 8 January, 2015 Share Posted 8 January, 2015 Muslim on Radio 5 live this morning said he loved Allah more than anyone else including his family, and would die for Allah. Would Christians die for an 800 year old warlord I think not. This is what's wrong with Islam its not moved on in nearly a thousand years whilst the rest of humanity has. Many would die for their beliefs but even if that were wrong, you aren't suggesting that that one person on radio 5 is speaking for all muslims are you? Dying for your God, and murdering for your God, are 2 different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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