France: Charlie Hebdo shootings

[pap]

I'm terrified.

Lightweight.

 

You don't know terrified. SarniaSaint probably sh!ts himself at anyone with a suntan (just in case, like).

 

Step your f/cking game up.

[Marsdinho]

1. The Charlie Hebdo gunmen, identified by police as brothers Cherif and Said Kouachi, were said todisplay professional training as if they were highly-skilled Special Operations soldiers. They were calm and controlled, well equipped, and well trained. Exactly where did they get their training and high-tech equipment?
   
2. Coulibaly was identified by DNA testing in only two hours. Although rapid DNA tests can be performed in a matter of hours, a match requires DNA from the suspect. How did the testing match this man in such a short time? Did authorities have his DNA or was it already in a database? In either case, how did that happen?
   
3. Videos quickly showed two people in the Hebdo getaway car with one in the driver’s seat. Why did authorities name and interrogate a third suspect (who turned out to not be involved) as the getaway car driver?
   
4. Why would the Koachi brothers wear balaclavas (i.e. ski masks) to hide their identity and then simply leave Said’s national ID card in the car? If they took the time to hide their faces, why would they bring their IDs with them?
   
5. Why did the masked attackers work to make sure they were quickly portrayed as Muslims and members of al Qaeda during the attacks? Witnesses said one shouted to onlookers—”Tell the media it was al-Qaeda in Yemen.” Other videos and reports indicate that they repeatedly shouted “Allahu Akbar” and proclaimed that they were avenging the Prophet Mohammad. Who benefits from this?
   
6. How did the attackers escape (to the northeast—the longest route through Paris) despite the police having raised the “alarm level for the greater Paris area to its highest level.” Did they have logistical support?
   
7. Why does the video of the shooting of victim Ahmed Merabet, reportedly killed by a shot to the head, suggest that he was
   ?
   
8. How did Helric Fredou die? A Paris police commissioner conducting the investigation, Fredou died while preparing a report on the crimes. And why did Western media not report his death for at least three days?
   
9. The alleged Kosher grocery gunman, Amedy Coulibaly, met with the President of France just a few years ago. What are the odds of such a coincidental meeting and does the connection relate to the attacks?
   

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_ankara-mayor-gokcek-mossad-is-behind-paris-attacks_369544.html

 

Je Suis Sceptique

[View From The Top]

1. The Charlie Hebdo gunmen, identified by police as brothers Cherif and Said Kouachi, were said todisplay professional training as if they were highly-skilled Special Operations soldiers. They were calm and controlled, well equipped, and well trained. Exactly where did they get their training and high-tech equipment?
   
2. Coulibaly was identified by DNA testing in only two hours. Although rapid DNA tests can be performed in a matter of hours, a match requires DNA from the suspect. How did the testing match this man in such a short time? Did authorities have his DNA or was it already in a database? In either case, how did that happen?
   
3. Videos quickly showed two people in the Hebdo getaway car with one in the driver’s seat. Why did authorities name and interrogate a third suspect (who turned out to not be involved) as the getaway car driver?
   
4. Why would the Koachi brothers wear balaclavas (i.e. ski masks) to hide their identity and then simply leave Said’s national ID card in the car? If they took the time to hide their faces, why would they bring their IDs with them?
   
5. Why did the masked attackers work to make sure they were quickly portrayed as Muslims and members of al Qaeda during the attacks? Witnesses said one shouted to onlookers—”Tell the media it was al-Qaeda in Yemen.” Other videos and reports indicate that they repeatedly shouted “Allahu Akbar” and proclaimed that they were avenging the Prophet Mohammad. Who benefits from this?
   
6. How did the attackers escape (to the northeast—the longest route through Paris) despite the police having raised the “alarm level for the greater Paris area to its highest level.” Did they have logistical support?
   
7. Why does the video of the shooting of victim Ahmed Merabet, reportedly killed by a shot to the head, suggest that he was
   ?
   
8. How did Helric Fredou die? A Paris police commissioner conducting the investigation, Fredou died while preparing a report on the crimes. And why did Western media not report his death for at least three days?
   
9. The alleged Kosher grocery gunman, Amedy Coulibaly, met with the President of France just a few years ago. What are the odds of such a coincidental meeting and does the connection relate to the attacks?
   

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_ankara-mayor-gokcek-mossad-is-behind-paris-attacks_369544.html

 

Je Suis Sceptique

 

The bit about the copper who was shot in the head is confusing. An AK47 round would have taken his head apart and brains, blood & gore would have been all over the place. That simply doesn't happen in the video.

[buctootim]

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_ankara-mayor-gokcek-mossad-is-behind-paris-attacks_369544.html

 

Which story would you have us read, the one on the left or on the right?

[Marsdinho]

Which story would you have us read, the one on the left or on the right?

 

I wouldn't want to influence you either way, its up to you to decide which one you want to believe.

[Saint_Abroad]

The bit about the copper who was shot in the head is confusing. An AK47 round would have taken his head apart and brains, blood & gore would have been all over the place. That simply doesn't happen in the video.

 

You ever shoot anybody in the head before or study ballistics?

[Verbal]

1. The Charlie Hebdo gunmen, identified by police as brothers Cherif and Said Kouachi, were said todisplay professional training as if they were highly-skilled Special Operations soldiers. They were calm and controlled, well equipped, and well trained. Exactly where did they get their training and high-tech equipment?
   
2. Coulibaly was identified by DNA testing in only two hours. Although rapid DNA tests can be performed in a matter of hours, a match requires DNA from the suspect. How did the testing match this man in such a short time? Did authorities have his DNA or was it already in a database? In either case, how did that happen?
   
3. Videos quickly showed two people in the Hebdo getaway car with one in the driver’s seat. Why did authorities name and interrogate a third suspect (who turned out to not be involved) as the getaway car driver?
   
4. Why would the Koachi brothers wear balaclavas (i.e. ski masks) to hide their identity and then simply leave Said’s national ID card in the car? If they took the time to hide their faces, why would they bring their IDs with them?
   
5. Why did the masked attackers work to make sure they were quickly portrayed as Muslims and members of al Qaeda during the attacks? Witnesses said one shouted to onlookers—”Tell the media it was al-Qaeda in Yemen.” Other videos and reports indicate that they repeatedly shouted “Allahu Akbar” and proclaimed that they were avenging the Prophet Mohammad. Who benefits from this?
   
6. How did the attackers escape (to the northeast—the longest route through Paris) despite the police having raised the “alarm level for the greater Paris area to its highest level.” Did they have logistical support?
   
7. Why does the video of the shooting of victim Ahmed Merabet, reportedly killed by a shot to the head, suggest that he was
   ?
   
8. How did Helric Fredou die? A Paris police commissioner conducting the investigation, Fredou died while preparing a report on the crimes. And why did Western media not report his death for at least three days?
   
9. The alleged Kosher grocery gunman, Amedy Coulibaly, met with the President of France just a few years ago. What are the odds of such a coincidental meeting and does the connection relate to the attacks?
   

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_ankara-mayor-gokcek-mossad-is-behind-paris-attacks_369544.html

 

Je Suis Sceptique

 

Vous etes un dumbass if you think that adds up to some sort of French government conspiracy.

[buctootim]

You ever shoot anybody in the head before or study ballistics?

 

His comment assumes the bullet went through the centre of the policemen's head. It could easily have just struck the edge or through the top of his neck. I wonder why Merabet's family are so upset if he's so clearly still alive.

 

[aintforever]

The bit about the copper who was shot in the head is confusing. An AK47 round would have taken his head apart and brains, blood & gore would have been all over the place. That simply doesn't happen in the video.

 

Not really confusing though is it? The reporter who reported he was shot in the head probably got it wrong. I've only watched the blurred out video and it looks like he aimed at the head to me.

[View From The Top]

You ever shoot anybody in the head before or study ballistics?

 

Ex-Forces. Ex-gun owner when in said forces.

[View From The Top]

His comment assumes the bullet went through the centre of the policemen's head. It could easily have just struck the edge or through the top of his neck. I wonder why Merabet's family are so upset if he's so clearly still alive.

 

 

This is true, I was thinking of a shot to the skull as opposed to neck etc.

[Marsdinho]

Vous etes un dumbass if you think that adds up to some sort of French government conspiracy.

 

Got the answers then?

 

I didn't actually say that it was a French conspiracy, I like to keep an open mind to these sorts of things to be honest. Though, I would never rule out government involvement as history proves that its often been the case. eg: Operation Cyclone, Syria, Chile, Guatemala, Ukraine etc.

 

The dumbass is the person that just accepts everything they are fed by the western media without questioning it.

[Batman]

Got the answers then?

 

I didn't actually say that it was a French conspiracy, I like to keep an open mind to these sorts of things to be honest. Though, I would never rule out government involvement as history proves that its often been the case. eg: Operation Cyclone, Syria, Chile, Guatemala, Ukraine etc.

 

The dumbass is the person that just accepts everything they are fed by the western media without questioning it.

 

was the copper who was shot a 'crisis actor'?

[buctootim]

The dumbass is the person that just accepts everything they are fed by the western media without questioning it.

 

tbf dumbass is someone who isn't able to differentiate between publicly known about government funding of regime changes overseas and a conspiracy to kill your own people with a cast of thousands who all agree to keep silent.

[aintforever]

Got the answers then?

 

I didn't actually say that it was a French conspiracy, I like to keep an open mind to these sorts of things to be honest. Though, I would never rule out government involvement as history proves that its often been the case. eg: Operation Cyclone, Syria, Chile, Guatemala, Ukraine etc.

 

The dumbass is the person that just accepts everything they are fed by the western media without questioning it.

 

1. Al-Qaeda in Yemen

2. Obviously on a database if the two hours thing is true

3. The arrested a lot of people in connection

4. They ****ed up or expected to go out in a blaze of glory so didn't care

5. So that al-Qaeda in Yemen could claim credit

6. No they just drove

7. Reports were probably wrong, the media always get stuff wrong

8. Looks like he was depressed and killed himself

9. Don't know what the odds are but presidents meet a lot of people

[buctootim]

1. Al-Qaeda in Yemen

2. Obviously on a database if the two hours thing is true

3. The arrested a lot of people in connection

4. They ****ed up or expected to go out in a blaze of glory so didn't care

5. So that al-Qaeda in Yemen could claim credit

6. No they just drove

7. Reports were probably wrong, the media always get stuff wrong

8. Looks like he was depressed and killed himself

9. Don't know what the odds are but presidents meet a lot of people

 

4. More than didn't care, they wanted to be martyrs. You cant be a martyr if you don't get caught.

[Saint_Abroad]

Ex-Forces. Ex-gun owner when in said forces.

 

Thank you for your service.

 

Was this the cop in the car?

[View From The Top]

Thank you for your service.

 

Was this the cop in the car?

 

No, laying on the pavement having already been hit. The shot was from less than 12" or so away from his head. He was executed.

[buctootim]

Two dead in Belgian anti terror raid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30840160

[ART]

WHERE IS THE PERSPECTIVE?

 

17 died last week in Paris and almost 4 million took to the streets in an International show of support.

 

In Nigeria, Boko Haram are massacring thousands, yet the news is swept under the carpet and hidden by the International Community.

 

WE ARE HUMAN TOO!

[SarniaSaint]

Lightweight.

 

You don't know terrified. SarniaSaint probably sh!ts himself at anyone with a suntan (just in case, like).

 

Step your f/cking game up.

 

You joining ISIS???

[CB Fry]

Got the answers then?

 

I didn't actually say that it was a French conspiracy, I like to keep an open mind to these sorts of things to be honest. Though, I would never rule out government involvement as history proves that its often been the case. eg: Operation Cyclone, Syria, Chile, Guatemala, Ukraine etc.

 

The dumbass is the person that just accepts everything they are fed by the western media without questioning it.

 

We're off and running. Didn't think it would take long.

 

Do tell us what your "open mind" saying happened, because you're open minded and not just cut and pasting stuff from conspiro-idiot websites.

[whelk]

WHERE IS THE PERSPECTIVE?

 

17 died last week in Paris and almost 4 million took to the streets in an International show of support.

 

In Nigeria, Boko Haram are massacring thousands, yet the news is swept under the carpet and hidden by the International Community.

 

WE ARE HUMAN TOO!

 

Where did you hear about Boko Harem - some underground news site?

 

Sorry but your other post with pictures of world leaders was something I would expect from a confused sixth form student who doesn't really understand much about the world.

[whelk]

We're off and running. Didn't think it would take long.

 

Do tell us what your "open mind" saying happened, because you're open minded and not just cut and pasting stuff from conspiro-idiot websites.

 

Aye and must be differnt conspirators behind the Boko Harem massacres as their timing is dreadful to not maximise news coverage. They really need to tie up as both have same goal although getting anyone to break ranks and whistle blow is notoriously difficult.

[View From The Top]

'kin animals.

 

[pap]

You joining ISIS???

Why on Earth would I do that?

 

I just refuse to change the way I live, or indeed, denigrate entire peoples based on the actions of extremists that self-ordain themselves as representative of an entire faith.

 

I also find your "frightened little f#ck" act difficult to reconcile with recent history, or indeed, the historical stoicism that our ancestors managed. The Great War of 1914-1918 was a literal hell on Earth and a tragic sacrifice of our young, but the British Tommy was known for maintaining humour and duty throughout, a fact that unnerved a lot of Germans. I guess if you throw everything at a foe and they're still laughing about it, that would be off-putting.

 

I wonder what those men would have made of scared sods like yourself, bleating away 100 years later about how frightened you are of what you've seen on the telly.

[Jonnyboy]

Where did you hear about Boko Harem - some underground news site?

 

Sorry but your other post with pictures of world leaders was something I would expect from a confused sixth form student who doesn't really understand much about the world.

 

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[aintforever]

'kin animals.

 

 

Look at the size of the crowd watching as well. Homophobia is is a trait of other muslim countries as well, nothing to do with religion though of course.

[Jonnyboy]

Look at the size of the crowd watching as well. Homophobia is is a trait of other muslim countries as well, nothing to do with religion though of course.

 

[Manuel]

Where did you hear about Boko Harem - some underground news site?

 

Sorry but your other post with pictures of world leaders was something I would expect from a confused sixth form student who doesn't really understand much about the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30847327

 

It is being covered, was on News at 10 last night, but apparently due to its location there is little footage. But yeah, very under-reported imo.

[Lighthouse]

Big picture of gay enigma bloke

 

Except we've moved on from that particular brand of idiocy. Islam has not.

 

I'm not denying other religions have issues with homophobia but few persecute the gays quite as violently as Islam. It is a capital offence in many Muslim countries. No other country murders people for their sexual orientation.

[aintforever]

 

Shows how far SOME countries have progressed.

[View From The Top]

I'm not sure I'm aware of any religion that lynches gay men and women from cranes in public as in Iran and throws them from tall buildings as ISIs has been doing.

 

I mean, how *****ed up is any religion when someone is murdered because of their sexuality?

[Marsdinho]

I guess I misjudged the mood of this thread, or indeed, the point of this forum. I always assumed it was a good place for healthy debate; yes it tips over the edge at times, but I've always enjoyed reading the differing views and am more than happy to be proven wrong / be corrected by people more qualified than myself. There is a vast array of knowledge on this forum, which I've always enjoyed.

 

If you look at my post, it wasn't directed at anyone, it’s not worded to have a go at anyone or prove anyone wrong, it was simply a "devil’s advocate" type post to provide a different viewpoint, or a different angle to the thread. Unfortunately, some of you don’t like differing views, so treat any post you don’t agree with, with disdain and ridicule.

 

We're off and running. Didn't think it would take long.

 

Do tell us what your "open mind" saying happened, because you're open minded and not just cut and pasting stuff from conspiro-idiot websites.

 

Yes CB Fry, you got me on that one...I did copy and paste! Fortunately, I have a job and life outside of this forum, so instead of typing something out word for word, I took the quick option and copied it from a website which was conveniently in the same language you and I understand, bonus !

 

I do try to keep an open mind as much as I can, only because I am sceptical about what we are being told (here I am talking generally not specifically about the Paris shootings). My view is that I try and read as much as I can on a particular subject then try an form an opinion based on the information provided. Not that you can be bothered, but if you were to read my other posts, it is heavily weighted towards a tin hat wearer….that’s just the way I am; I’m not apologising for it, as the world would be a very boring place if we were all the same.

 

Whilst I’m on that subject, could you imagine if we really were all “Charlie”, what terribly boring existence we would live in….human kind is much the better for its diversity.

 

Tell me, have you honestly been sat there thinking "I reckon, by page 15 someone will post something I don't agree with" - you should do the lottery, or take up fortune telling.

 

 

Vous etes un dumbass if you think that adds up to some sort of French government conspiracy.

 

tbf dumbass is someone who isn't able to differentiate between publicly known about government funding of regime changes overseas and a conspiracy to kill your own people with a cast of thousands who all agree to keep silent.

 

Ironically, it seems the concept of free speech is alien to some of you.

[Lighthouse]

Marsdinho - You have the right to free speech. Verbal, Tim and Fry have the right to call you a dumbass. That's how it works.

[Special K]

 

Ironically, it seems the concept of free speech is alien to some of you.

 

I don't think anyone is denying you the right to say what you think. Just pointing out that there is a better than average chance of it being a load of old pony.

[Marsdinho]

Marsdinho - You have the right to free speech. Verbal, Tim and Fry have the right to call you a dumbass. That's how it works.

 

Careful, your not justifying the Paris shootings are you?

[sadoldgit]

I guess I misjudged the mood of this thread, or indeed, the point of this forum. I always assumed it was a good place for healthy debate; yes it tips over the edge at times, but I've always enjoyed reading the differing views and am more than happy to be proven wrong / be corrected by people more qualified than myself. There is a vast array of knowledge on this forum, which I've always enjoyed.

 

.

 

You have indeed misjudged the point of this forum. It exists purely as a form of sport for certain individuals who see it as their duty make to come on here and try to belittle others with their superior intellect.

[Jonnyboy]

Except we've moved on from that particular brand of idiocy. Islam has not.

 

I'm not denying other religions have issues with homophobia but few persecute the gays quite as violently as Islam. It is a capital offence in many Muslim countries. No other country murders people for their sexual orientation.

 

It is disgusting. The sooner the UK puts a trade embargo on Saudi Arabia the better imo..

[SarniaSaint]

Why on Earth would I do that?

 

I just refuse to change the way I live, or indeed, denigrate entire peoples based on the actions of extremists that self-ordain themselves as representative of an entire faith.

 

I also find your "frightened little f#ck" act difficult to reconcile with recent history, or indeed, the historical stoicism that our ancestors managed. The Great War of 1914-1918 was a literal hell on Earth and a tragic sacrifice of our young, but the British Tommy was known for maintaining humour and duty throughout, a fact that unnerved a lot of Germans. I guess if you throw everything at a foe and they're still laughing about it, that would be off-putting.

 

I wonder what those men would have made of scared sods like yourself, bleating away 100 years later about how frightened you are of what you've seen on the telly.

 

Hey I'm not scared of them.....they need to be stopped in their tracks........how on earth we let this cancerous religion into Western society is beyond me.......so tell me what makes you think I'm a scared little f#ck ..... I have seen for myself their dis-respect for others in Toronto......Oh yeah just F..k Off

Edited 17 January, 2015 by SarniaSaint
missed a bit lol

[pap]

Hey I'm not scared of them.....they need to be stopped in their tracks........how on earth we let this cancerous religion into Western society is beyond me.......so tell me what makes you think I'm a scared little f#ck ..... I have seen for myself their dis-respect for others in Toronto......Oh yeah just F..k Off

 

Yeah, because that's how we solved the problems in Northern Ireland. Killing terrorists to death. Oh wait, that's a load of shít. Negotiation, truth, reconciliation and political bravery did all that. I suppose it didn't hurt that other countries were putting pressure on us to resolve the situation.

 

The frequency of your posts and their tone both suggest that you're both scared and ignorant. As a scion of a Muslim family, I find your wholesale labelling of the faith personally offensive. Yet as someone that has actually lost a good friend to Islamic extremists in Kabul, I still refuse to be as angry as you about it, and neither would he have been.

 

You're just spreading hate, possibly because you're scared, possibly because you're yet another racist crawling out of your foetid fúcking hole after being validated by all the twáttery on the news. Possibly both.

 

Whatever, I have no hesitation in placing you in moronic section of the British public. Read some history. I hope you get better.

[BlakeySFC]

Very small minority of Muslims are Extremists. They twist the words of the Qur'an to justify their own atrociously awful acts, Islam is a peaceful religion embraced by billions around the world.

 

Muslims have nothing to apologise for, and the only way to live peacefully alongside them is to embrace Islam in Britain, in Canada, in the US and other Western nations so Muslims who live in these countries don't feel ostracised and bewildered about being a Muslim in their own country.

Edited 17 January, 2015 by BlakeySFC

[hutch]

It is disgusting. The sooner the UK puts a trade embargo on Saudi Arabia the better imo..

Yeah, that'll fix it.

[Jonnyboy]

Yeah, that'll fix it.

 

It'd be a start, and it wouldn't involve "exterminating" anyone.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Very small minority of Muslims are Extremists. They twist the words of the Qur'an to justify their own atrociously awful acts, Islam is a peaceful religion embraced by billions around the world.

 

Muslims have nothing to apologise for, and the only way to live peacefully alongside them is the embrace Islam in Britain, in Canada, in the US and other Western nations so Muslims who live in these countries don't feel ostracised and bewildered about being a Muslim in their own country.

 

An excellent post if I may say so sir.

 

Toleration and mutual respect is the only way forward, although I'm well aware that sounds rather like a 'motherhood & apple pie' type of comment because (I would hope) no reasonable person could possibly disagree with it. It's right that we in the 'West' place a high value on our freedom of speech, but that freedom doesn't mean we need gratuitously insult the religious faith of minority groups without good cause. I call that behavior 'respect'. The other side of that coin is that Muslims who choose to live in the West, or are born here, must learn to accept that these are multicultural secular society's that can never be transformed into the devout Islamic caliphates that some extremists seem to be seeking. We might call that behavior 'tolerance'.

 

I've lived on this planet long enough and read enough of its often brutal history to know that, beneath the thin veneer of civilisation, the base nature of the Human Race is as resistant to improvement as it ever was. We may carry our primeval 'monsters from the id' into the stars with us one day I suppose - Roddenbury was wrong alas. Nevertheless, even this world weary realist finds the wave of extreme violence and intolerance sweeping across parts of our world to be a profoundly depressing phenomenon. Far from progressing, the actions of extremist groups such as ISIS and Boko Haram seem to suggest that we as a race are in danger of regressing into some sort of of historical barbarism I had hoped we were on the verge of leaving behind us.

 

But we must never despair of the world because for every ignorant murderous savage out there, there are a hundred decent people who manage to peacefully live their lives doing no harm to others in the process. I'll try to hold onto that thought the next time I hear tale of another bus load of innocents slaughtered because they were not able to recite verses from some 'acceptable' religious or political text - whatever one that happens to be.

[pap]

Very small minority of Muslims are Extremists. They twist the words of the Qur'an to justify their own atrociously awful acts, Islam is a peaceful religion embraced by billions around the world.

 

Muslims have nothing to apologise for, and the only way to live peacefully alongside them is the embrace Islam in Britain, in Canada, in the US and other Western nations so Muslims who live in these countries don't feel ostracised and bewildered about being a Muslim in their own country.

 

An excellent post if I may say so sir.

 

Toleration and mutual respect is the only way forward, although I'm well aware that sounds rather like a 'motherhood & apple pie' type of comment because (I would hope) no reasonable person could possibly disagree with it. It's right that we in the 'West' place a high value on our freedom of speech, but that freedom doesn't mean we need gratuitously insult the religious faith of minority groups without good cause. I call that behavior 'respect'. The other side of that coin is that Muslims who choose to live in the West, or are born here, must learn to accept that these are multicultural secular society's that can never be transformed into the devout Islamic caliphates that some extremists seem to be seeking. We might call that behavior 'tolerance'.

 

I've lived on this planet long enough and read enough of its often brutal history to know that, beneath the thin veneer of civilisation, the base nature of the Human Race is as resistant to improvement as it ever was. We may carry our primeval 'monsters from the id' into the stars with us one day I suppose - Roddenbury was wrong alas. Nevertheless, even this world weary realist finds the wave of extreme violence and intolerance sweeping across parts of our world to be a profoundly depressing phenomenon. Far from progressing, the actions of extremist groups such as ISIS and Boko Haram seem to suggest that we as a race are in danger of regressing into some sort of of historical barbarism I had hoped we were on the verge of leaving behind us.

 

But we must never despair of the world because for every ignorant murderous savage out there, there are a hundred decent people who manage to peacefully live their lives doing no harm to others in the process. I'll try to hold onto that thought the next time I hear tale of another bus load of innocents slaughtered because they were not able to recite verses from some 'acceptable' religious or political text - whatever one that happens to be.

 

Good work, gentlemen.

[Verbal]

Very small minority of Muslims are Extremists. They twist the words of the Qur'an to justify their own atrociously awful acts, Islam is a peaceful religion embraced by billions around the world.

 

Muslims have nothing to apologise for, and the only way to live peacefully alongside them is the embrace Islam in Britain, in Canada, in the US and other Western nations so Muslims who live in these countries don't feel ostracised and bewildered about being a Muslim in their own country.

 

I understand the sentiment, Blakey, and sympathise to a great extent. But it's wrong in one crucial respect. The jihadists are not 'twisting' the words of the Koran, in the sense that there 'must be' some correct version of it - at heart some peaceable religion. A religion is merely the expression of its adherents. And it is simply not the case, sadly, that the foul individuals in Paris, Belgium, Woolwich, Kobane and Raqqa are isolated cases of social pathology and unrepresentative of the religion itself, as its power base currently stands.

 

The custodians of the two most important Muslim sites in the world, Mecca and Medina, are just as brutally perverse as the death cultists in ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, the TTP (Pakistani Taliban), Abu Sayyaf (in Southeast Asia) and Al Shabaab. The Saudis regard it as an essential part of their legal code to conduct public beheadings, unbelievably torturous whippings, and oppress women. They have also exported their ideas to these extremist groups and, in various forms, supported them financially. (Bin Laden himself was once a Saudi agent.)

 

Neither of the last two Muslim empires to fall - the Mughal (1857) and the Ottoman (1923) - was Arab; and both, despite their political weaknesses, were repositories and beneficiaries of relatively enlightened interpretations of Islam. Both empires featured some variant of Sufism at their core - indeed, the Mughal empire was not so much created by conquest as by the spiritualist appeal of the Sufi 'saints'. Today, the majority of the world's Muslims are not Arab, and certainly do not subscribe to Wahhabi or (even worse) Salafist ideologies.

 

The big problem, though, is that the Wahhabis have a stranglehold on the key religious sites, and the only serious threat from within Islam to that stranglehold is the even more extreme (hard to imagine) Salafists. Bin Laden's aim was never a world caliphate but the retaking of 'Muslim lands' and especially the overthrow of the House of Saud. As these extremist ideas are exported, the more tolerant, liberal strains of Islam have fallen away. Who would guess, for example, that up until the early 1970s, Afghanistan was a haven of Sufi mysticism, with Kabul, the terminus of the hippy trail, at its core? All that has now been wiped out - as is liberal Islam elsewhere.

 

So Islam IS the problem - but most of all a problem for the majority of Muslims, who fearfully find their faith occupied by a vicious alien belief system. This is not about 'twisting words' from religious texts - it's about the majority of co-religionists reclaiming their beliefs from the 'true-believing' gunmen, torturers, mutilators of women, beheaders, whose idea of proselytising their faith is to hurl gay men from tall buildings.

 

In this sense, Muslims, if they don't have something to apologise for, do have something to be embarrassed about. These appalling acts in Africa, the Levant, Europe, and south and southeast Asia are being carried out in their name. Which is why you see some Muslim protestors holding placards saying: 'Not in my name.'

 

The extremists, of course, are playing a game, which goes like this: make Islam so repellent that Muslims are reviled wherever they live. This in turn will radicalise those Muslims because they will feel increasingly pushed into a corner by discrimination and physical assault. So for that reason your appeal for (mutual) tolerance is absolutely right. But that does not mean that the problem isn't with Islam itself.

[pap]

^^

 

Brought to you by the Israeli government.

 

Does hasbara pay as well as your propaganda for the British government?

[aintforever]

Verbal is right, saying the problem is noting to do with Islam is as bad as blaming all of Islam. Fact is part of Islam is f*cked up, but it IS part of Islam.

[pap]

Verbal is right, saying the problem is noting to do with Islam is as bad as blaming all of Islam. Fact is part of Islam is f*cked up, but it IS part of Islam.

 

He's being intellectually disingenuous by focusing on Muslims alone. It's like the last few hundred years of interaction with the West never happened.

 

Fúck his detail. It's what he doesn't say that is most interesting.