How can we create a Kop end?

[Sour Mash]

There wasn't really a consultation as such, fans were simply told that the police had said the Northam/Itchen corner was most convenient for away access, so the away section would be in blocks 43-48.

 

Everyone basically went where they thought it would be best, but even in the relatively short time we've been at St Mary's, the demographic in different parts of the ground has changed so much, people move around quite a lot. I've been back and forth between the Northam and Itchen corner loads of times. That freedom of movement, for want of a better phrase, means that if there was a concerted effort to organise something and have a whole stand that stood and sung all game in the Chapel, it would be pretty easy to achieve, I reckon. It just requires the will of the people, which is probably where it'll come unstuck as most people just can't be arsed.

But plenty of people have kept the same or similar seats for a long time. And you'd be asking long-term Chapel season ticket holders to move for no discernable benefit for them.

[100%Red&White]

It'd be an interesting idea. But I don't think there is too much wrong with the current situation! When I sit in the Northern, or even the Kingsland it's pretty loud... Maybe it's me getting on a bit...

 

There is if you sit elsewhere in the stadium and the Northam only sounds loud if you're in the immediate vicinity - it's the 'Northam' btw.

 

 

As Harvey says, the only solution really us to expand the Northam.

 

If they do, hopefully it won't be another separate tier above, that's killed the atmosphere in a lot of previously very good 'ends'. Something like spurs are proposing would be acceptable for me.

 

[Griffo]

Southampton is a port city. Newcastle sunderland liverpool are the only other premiership cities that come to mind as major ports. We are associated with the docks. We are associated with the sea. Our badge recognises this. OUtside Southampton this is what people know of us. We need another song that reflects that. We are Sailing is the only song that does this. it hits all the right factors in terms of words and most importantly acoustics. My job as a sound engineer gives me an insight into the sound /noise that needs to be created in a stadium to create that hair on the back of the neck feeling. The tune and harmony from We are Sailing would take the roof off - trust me.

 

F*ck sake. Do you get to many football games?

[andoru]

Don't forget of course, that part of what makes the Kop special is the wall of scarves, banners and giant flags being waved around. It's not all about the song. You can sing 'We are sailing' as much as you like, but there needs to be colour there as well. Probably easier to start with that to be honest, than trying to force a song in. Stick with OWTSGMI and everyone holding a red and white scarf over their head.

[Golden Balls]

There is if you sit elsewhere in the stadium and the Northam only sounds loud if you're in the immediate vicinity - it's the 'Northam' btw.

 

 

If they do, hopefully it won't be another separate tier above, that's killed the atmosphere in a lot of previously very good 'ends'. Something like spurs are proposing would be acceptable for me.

 

 

 

If something like that was possible for one end, it would work really well. Probably still needs to be the Chapel as too much would still be taken by away fans in the Northam. If we expanded the chapel like that, I think that would be enough for fans to move.

[Tom & Gerry]

There are 3 things that contribute to the atmosphere at a football match.

Firstly the players and the state of the game.

Secondly singing and chanting of which there are various types.

Thirdly the position in the crowd of your main vocal leaders.

With regard to the first point one bit of skill as Waynyama demonstrated against Arsenal can do more to lift the atmosphere than a hundred renditions of tired old songs about getting your father's gun.

Self evidently the atmosphere is going to be better when we are winning than losing but it is those boring bits in between where signing comes in.

There are times when quiet can add to the atmosphere. It's called tension and was in evidence at times against Chelsea, but mostly it's difficult to shout when your team doesn't have the ball or isn't doing much with it when they do get it. Then you need your vocal leaders to liven things up.

There are songs for individuals which do encourage the player but only get sung when he does something good.

There are tribal songs which I suppose are designed to bring unity to the fan base but don't do much to encourage the players or improve the atmosphere.

There are hostile to the opposition songs which are part of the game as long as they don't go too far like that vile song about Wenger which just for a few seconds created a very bad atmosphere and was just embarrasing.

There are original songs which can uplift the crowd and best of all traditional songs which start with the vocal leaders, get taken up by the whole home crowd and create a great atmosphere.

So to get that great atmosphere you need your vocal leaders in the best position. It seems to me it was a bit dumb to choose an end where a large proportion was going to be away support as your main signing end. I know the idea is to wind up the opposing fans and create banter and I admit that does lead to some creativity in some songs and a good local atmosphere in that part of the ground, but I don't think the reason that some clubs have a reputation for a good atmoshere is because of the proximity to away supporters of there main signing area.

Look at the bigger picture and change ends, it happened at the Dell.

[Sour Mash]

Look at the bigger picture and change ends, it happened at the Dell.

But when Saints fans moved into the Archers there were no existing Season Ticket holders there. Much easier to do.

[70's Mike]

Interesting points of view, maybe time to accept football crowds have changed and that the great ends are a thing of the past.

[OldNick]

The rule is the home team has to offer 10% of the saleable capacity or 3,000 tickets, whichever is the lower. Hence, at grounds with capacities larger than 30,000, we get a maximum of 3,000 tickets, give or take a few hundred either way for segregation and ease of access.

 

We give up to 3,150 for away teams in the league, which is technically more than we need to (3,000, obviously), especially considering the club is allowed to reduce the away allocation for any segregation that needs to be put in place - in practice, this means that we could offer a maximum league allocation of around 2,600, with around 400 seats blocked off for segregation from the actual allocation of 3,000. The problem with doing this is logistics and safety legislation. The reason we give slightly more than we need to is that, with the current full away allocation, the segregation netting is placed pretty much right down the middle of block 43 - safety legislation dictates that no seat should be further than [X] seats from an aisle to enable a quick evacuation if necessary. I don't know what the [X] is, but basically if the netting was to be placed at the far side of block 43, reducing the away allocation to 2600, the club would still only be able to sell around half of the block to home fans, not the three-quarters that would in theory be available.

thanks for that Steve,the rules yet again gives more home advantage to the bigger clubs with large grounds.

[Saint_Jonny]

Interesting points of view' date=' maybe time to accept football crowds have changed and that the great ends are a thing of the past.[/quote']

 

Or maybe not, as sitting and quietness seems to annoy so many?

[Alain Perrin]

Suggest discounting this http://sashesandtashes.co.uk/index.php/english/80-s-scouser-tracksuit.html heavily with a Season Ticket will help develop the Kop end you're craving.

 

Seriously though, I think splitting up the choir for cup matches is detrimental to the atmosphere. Having said that, if you move the away fans then normal home atmosphere would be affected because some home fans choose to be close to the away fans for "c'mon then, 'ave some" goading and occasional "wahhh, tosser" hand signals.

 

i.e.

Move them to the Itchen / Northam corner - no go because of boxes.

Move them to the Kingsland / Northam corner - removes a chunk of better view seats from home fans.

Move them to Kingsland Centre - as above, also health and safety concerns over blankets and hot chocolate.

 

It is, I am afraid, an impossible dream. Perhaps only if serious work was done on the stadium (that requires a wholesale reshuffle will it become possible). Newcastle's approach is best - stick the away fans as high up and far away as possible....

[Dalek2003]

Don't forget of course, that part of what makes the Kop special is the wall of scarves, banners and giant flags being waved around. It's not all about the song. You can sing 'We are sailing' as much as you like, but there needs to be colour there as well. Probably easier to start with that to be honest, than trying to force a song in. Stick with OWTSGMI and everyone holding a red and white scarf over their head.

 

In that case we should issue everyone with black curly wigs, stick on tache, a red shell suit and learn to say 'aye aye....calm down ! '

[saintnicoolas]

There is no atmosphere at liverpool anymore as its been taken over by tourists and the prawn crackers brigade, I was at the the first game of the season and apart from one guy giving us a bit of aggro there was nothing coming from there fans.....ive noticed it more at st marys recently as well 'tourist fans', they buy a hat and a scarf to blend in and spend most of the game taking selfies of themselves.

[Spudders]

If the club really felt there was any value to getting involved and moving sections of the crowd, I can't see that groups of people objecting would stop them. After all, we're customers/units now.

 

For example if the business plan indicated that it'd be worthwhile moving everyone from block 40 & 41 to the chapel en-mass (they could even keep people in the same seat positions within the block so that everyone was sat next to the same people), creating the same atmosphere down the other end but with more space and then increasing sales with an increase in popularity, then any chapel fans objecting wouldn't stop the club, after all they'd just be replaced by new customers if they really wouldn't take a seat in a different block.

 

Realistically though, when push comes to shove (and assuming they were offered a renewal at the same price), there wouldn't be many fans who wouldn't renew if forced to move to a different block.

[simo]

There is no atmosphere at liverpool anymore as its been taken over by tourists and the prawn crackers brigade, I was at the the first game of the season and apart from one guy giving us a bit of aggro there was nothing coming from there fans.....ive noticed it more at st marys recently as well 'tourist fans', they buy a hat and a scarf to blend in and spend most of the game taking selfies of themselves.

Bird in front of us for Chelsea spent all match taking photos of Mourinhio

[stevegrant]

thanks for that Steve,the rules yet again gives more home advantage to the bigger clubs with large grounds.

Most teams wouldn't sell 7600 at Old Trafford anyway so I'm not sure that rule is actually much of a problem.

[Bearsy]

the prawn crackers brigade

 

lol racist

[aintforever]

The only way I can see of improving it would be to shift the away fans round a few blocks to take up 1,2 and 3 of the Itchen. That would give us almost the whole Northam and the two sets of fans will actually be able to hear each other. Only problem then is a few of the Exec Boxes would be amongst the away fans.

[Spudders]

The only way I can see of improving it would be to shift the away fans round a few blocks to take up 1,2 and 3 of the Itchen. That would give us almost the whole Northam and the two sets of fans will actually be able to hear each other. Only problem then is a few of the Exec Boxes would be amongst the away fans.

 

They could just offer those exec boxes out on a match by match basis to away fans?

[Pierre]

If safe standing is introduced you'd hope the club will do it in the Chapel end to make it easy. Might be worth getting in touch with the club, if there's a big movement towards the summer to move the home end down to the chapel then more people will go for it. Of course you have the problem of the family stand which is currently in the chapel i believe.

If Dortmund can have safe standing, i don't see why Saints couldn't. Convert the chapel into a terrace, increase capacity of the ground, introduce affordable tickets, bigger crowds, more revenues, more atmosphere, problem solved.

(Apart from the pedestrian bridge...)

[SFCRedandWhite]

I really like the idea in theory, but It would never work in practice. At best we'd end up getting split vocal sections (some in each stand) which can be pulled off at some grounds, but we know at st marys that sound doesn't travel well, and it would be an out of time mess especially with the board bangers. Best I could suggest is try to get as many in the kingsland corner who are happy to create a good atmosphere (right round to block 35 etc)

[Sour Mash]

If Dortmund can have safe standing, i don't see why Saints couldn't. Convert the chapel into a terrace, increase capacity of the ground, introduce affordable tickets, bigger crowds, more revenues, more atmosphere, problem solved.

(Apart from the pedestrian bridge...)

A change to the law is required for that to happen unfortunately.

[Sour Mash]

The only way I can see of improving it would be to shift the away fans round a few blocks to take up 1,2 and 3 of the Itchen. That would give us almost the whole Northam and the two sets of fans will actually be able to hear each other. Only problem then is a few of the Exec Boxes would be amongst the away fans.

You'd need to give up more than blocks 1-3 for the away allocation. It'd have to include 4 and maybe even a bit of 5, coming up right close to the Directors seats etc.

[SFCRedandWhite]

The scarf idea Is a good one, looks really good at away games when they hand out the free ones - problem is no one seems to bring them back to the home games. Reckon the club should set up a game where they ask the fans to wear the club colours, bring scarfs etc Could even throw in discounted scarfs to encourage people

[whelk]

I really don't think there is a problem. I have been going to every game for years and can't say it is any worse now. As for ends it works fine and don't think that is the solution. I think it is more down to the moon

[Saint Fan CaM]

Best solution by far is to protect the Northam home blocks by swapping sides with the away fans and then extending the away blocks into the Kingsland corner. Keeps the away fans near to Britania Rd and allows the home kop to combine with Itchen thus allowing more coordinated and louder Saints support. The logistics of getting away supporters into coaches for Policing purposes is easily sorted with minimal spend by the club. This needs implementing as soon as possible IMO.

[OldNick]

Most teams wouldn't sell 7600 at Old Trafford anyway so I'm not sure that rule is actually much of a problem.

No doubt you're right but we should be allowed to reduce the size of the away section. The debate is about making a Kop end and reducing the away allocation would help the issue. If percentage wise we only had to issue the same as Man U do for example , the that would reduce the always by half. Making it much easier for us to have a Kop. Obviously the rules are that we have to provide 3000 tickets, why that is the case I don't get .

[CB Fry]

No doubt you're right but we should be allowed to reduce the size of the away section. The debate is about making a Kop end and reducing the away allocation would help the issue. If percentage wise we only had to issue the same as Man U do for example , the that would reduce the always by half. Making it much easier for us to have a Kop. Obviously the rules are that we have to provide 3000 tickets, why that is the case I don't get .

 

What should the percentage be, then? 5%? And presumably you're okay if Man Utd, Spurs, Arsenal reciprocate and only ever offer 1,500 tickets to us?

 

Don't understand what relevance Old Trafford being bigger and Man U having more fans than other clubs has to this debate.

 

The 10%/3,000 rule is fair and perfectly logical.

Edited 7 January, 2015 by CB Fry

[hutch]

The 3,000 is neither fair nor logical. It is arbitrary.

 

I'm not promoting change, but if you wanted to make it fair you should link is in some way to the number of fans that regularly attend matches.

[Sour Mash]

The 3,000 is neither fair nor logical. It is arbitrary.

 

I'm not promoting change, but if you wanted to make it fair you should link is in some way to the number of fans that regularly attend matches.

So Man Utd would get a bigger allocation at ours?

[Golden Balls]

Like the idea of just swapping everyones seats in the Northam with people in the corresponding blocks/rows in the Chapel so you're still sat around the people you were before. Only problem is half the Chapel would be quiet seated people and half would be Northam. Might take a while to spread to the whole Chapel.

[Wes Tender]

The 3,000 is neither fair nor logical. It is arbitrary.

 

I'm not promoting change, but if you wanted to make it fair you should link is in some way to the number of fans that regularly attend matches.

 

I agree. 10% of the capacity or 3000, whichever is the lower enables Manchester United for example to take nearly a tenth of our ground, whilst only allowing us 4% of their ground. Regardless of whether we would take 7500 seats or not is irrelevant, it isn't fair.

[Sour Mash]

I agree. 10% of the capacity or 3000, whichever is the lower enables Manchester United for example to take nearly a tenth of our ground, whilst only allowing us 4% of their ground. Regardless of whether we would take 7500 seats or not is irrelevant, it isn't fair.

What difference does it make in practice though? We'll have 1.5k up there on Sunday.

[Wes Tender]

What difference does it make in practice though? We'll have 1.5k up there on Sunday.

 

Who cares what difference it makes in practice? The level playing field is to have both clubs offering the same percentage of their capacity, not having some arbitrary "whichever is the lower" cut off total.

[Sour Mash]

Who cares what difference it makes in practice? The level playing field is to have both clubs offering the same percentage of their capacity, not having some arbitrary "whichever is the lower" cut off total.

Well the main point is the difference it makes in practice. Unless you only ever attend theoretical games of football.

 

And it clearly isn't arbitrary, it's a guarantee of a reasonable sized away allocation at every ground.

[Wes Tender]

Well the main point is the difference it makes in practice. Unless you only ever attend theoretical games of football.

 

And it clearly isn't arbitrary, it's a guarantee of a reasonable sized away allocation at every ground.

 

But it isn't, is it? Its a guarantee of 3000 seats allotted, where a visiting team under certain circumstances might wish to have that number increased but cannot. Distance prevents us taking up a much larger allocation to clubs like Man United, but what about us wishing to take many more to the London Clubs? Or indeed clubs closer to the big Manchester clubs wishing to have a larger allocation than 3000 seats at matches there? As I said, United can fill 10% of our ground with plastics, whereas we or neighbouring northern teams can only have 4% of Old Trafford. 10% across the board is fair and if the visiting club don't require that quantity, then so what? But if they required more seas than the 3000, it is patently unjust.

 

Let's look at it the other way around for some perspective. We are only allowed 4% of United's ground capacity, so in the interests of fair play, say they were only allowed 4% of ours? Can you imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth there would be if only 1280 plastic Mancs were allowed to our home match against them?

Edited 7 January, 2015 by Wes Tender
additional thought

[Big Bad Bob]

When we get into Europe (i hope/pray) an international song like We are Sailing will be played in every country. Along with Oh when the saints we will have two perfect recognisable songs to our name. that is if we can manage another few verses of oh when the saints.

It really wound me up when Ipswich were singing - you've only got one song. it wound me up because its true. I don't count players songs (they come and go) and i don't count pompy songs (they have gone!)

 

Aye, but Ipswich only really had one song if you discount their player songs and the annoying spelling out of IPSWICH..

 

Maybe we could do that at SMS, S-S, O-O, U-U, T-T etc. etc. maybe not....

[ericb]

Aye, but Ipswich only really had one song if you discount their player songs and the annoying spelling out of IPSWICH..

 

Maybe we could do that at SMS, S-S, O-O, U-U, T-T etc. etc. maybe not....

 

What you mean exactly how we used to in the days of the milton with someone shouting "why don't you give me an S..."? In fact their chant was a carbon copy of the one we did at nearly every game for a good 20 years.

[Big Bad Bob]

What you mean exactly how we used to in the days of the milton with someone shouting "why don't you give me an S..."? In fact their chant was a carbon copy of the one we did at nearly every game for a good 20 years.

 

Thank the lords that that has fallen out of favour then...

[Beckenham Saint]

Aye, but Ipswich only really had one song if you discount their player songs and the annoying spelling out of IPSWICH..

 

Maybe we could do that at SMS, S-S, O-O, U-U, T-T etc. etc. maybe not....

 

Most teams will only have one song if you take away player songs, of which we have quite a few. OWTS is our one staple, but then our fans seem to be quite good at getting stuff going on the day - "Still be last on Match of the Day", "Who needs Rodriguez, we've got your back four!", and the infamous Jason Puncheon song!

 

"The Saints are staying up" has become quite a regular this year, as well as the Leibheirr Wonderland (One Markus Leibheirr sounds way too similar to One Pochetinno!).

 

At times this year I have thought our fans have been incredible. The singing vs QPR was impressively energetic and boisterous (Esp. "Harry Give us a Twitch") and Jon Moss even managed to bring everyone together in a rain of boos and "you don't know what your doing" chants - I'd never heard SMS sound so hostile before, but when the volume goes up we do sound good!

[Convict Colony]

Just as a point of interest incase someone didn't know the Kop at Anfield is named after the battle of Spion Kop where a lot of the Lancashire fusiliers died in the Boer war. I've been there, very interesting spot but not as awe inspiring as Rorke's drift and isandlawana thought but its not a competition.

[Sour Mash]

What you mean exactly how we used to in the days of the milton with someone shouting "why don't you give me an S..."? In fact their chant was a carbon copy of the one we did at nearly every game for a good 20 years.

Still hear it very, very occasionally at games, old school football song that!

[Sour Mash]

But it isn't, is it? Its a guarantee of 3000 seats allotted, where a visiting team under certain circumstances might wish to have that number increased but cannot. Distance prevents us taking up a much larger allocation to clubs like Man United, but what about us wishing to take many more to the London Clubs? Or indeed clubs closer to the big Manchester clubs wishing to have a larger allocation than 3000 seats at matches there? As I said, United can fill 10% of our ground with plastics, whereas we or neighbouring northern teams can only have 4% of Old Trafford. 10% across the board is fair and if the visiting club don't require that quantity, then so what? But if they required more seas than the 3000, it is patently unjust.

 

Let's look at it the other way around for some perspective. We are only allowed 4% of United's ground capacity, so in the interests of fair play, say they were only allowed 4% of ours? Can you imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth there would be if only 1280 plastic Mancs were allowed to our home match against them?

Why should Saints fans have more access to away tickets to Arsenal or Man Utd than their supporters do at ours?

[ericb]

Still hear it very, very occasionally at games, old school football song that!

 

Up there with the version of OWTS started by someone shouting out "knock knock" then you basically held each word till you ran out of breath which let it spread round the dell and build.

 

Good times they were.

[Wes Tender]

Why should Saints fans have more access to away tickets to Arsenal or Man Utd than their supporters do at ours?

 

It really is very simple. Because they have much bigger grounds. Why should they have a greater proportion of seats at our ground than we have at theirs? They would retain 90% of the seats. Do you think that they deserve more than that?

[CB Fry]

But it isn't, is it? Its a guarantee of 3000 seats allotted, where a visiting team under certain circumstances might wish to have that number increased but cannot. Distance prevents us taking up a much larger allocation to clubs like Man United, but what about us wishing to take many more to the London Clubs? Or indeed clubs closer to the big Manchester clubs wishing to have a larger allocation than 3000 seats at matches there? As I said, United can fill 10% of our ground with plastics, whereas we or neighbouring northern teams can only have 4% of Old Trafford. 10% across the board is fair and if the visiting club don't require that quantity, then so what? But if they required more seas than the 3000, it is patently unjust.

 

Let's look at it the other way around for some perspective. We are only allowed 4% of United's ground capacity, so in the interests of fair play, say they were only allowed 4% of ours? Can you imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth there would be if only 1280 plastic Mancs were allowed to our home match against them?

 

The wailing and gnashing of teeth of those theoretical 'plastic' Man U fans won't match the grizzling and whining from you about our perfectly reasonable and fair allocation for Old Trafford.

 

And, what a surprise, your solution to this "patently unjust" problem is something that has no impact whatsoever on SFC but a significant impact on other clubs and their supporters, whose home fans it turns out have less of a right to go to games than away fans. That's nice and fair then.

 

But hey, fuc k them. Clubs should be punished for daring to have bigger grounds.

[saintalan]

On the song front other than OWTS the only other one that got the crowd joining in, in frecent years, was Rickys 6'3"/Johnny comes marching home.

 

Perhaps we could adapt that as team song, its a traditional song that most know the tune to.

[Golden Balls]

On the song front other than OWTS the only other one that got the crowd joining in, in frecent years, was Rickys 6'3"/Johnny comes marching home.

 

Perhaps we could adapt that as team song, its a traditional song that most know the tune to.

 

And WTFILN. Which imo will never get old for those of us that were there at Fratton that day.

[CB Fry]

I see the club on twitter today saying tickets on general sale for the United trip.

 

But yeah, we desperately need a 10% allocation of 8,000 seats at Old Trafford.

So patently unjust.

[The9]

When we do Oh when the saints at a decent pace the whole ground joins in, then for some reason the board bangers speed it up to 100mph and guess what? It all goes to rat****. I agree with someones earlier post about the liverpool/whu bit. If we could get the club to play a decent version of OWTS loud over the PA it would work well, scarves held aloft, banners the whole works.

 

This hasn't been a problem for about 3 years.

 

And one of the ONLY things Liverpool fans do now is sing YNWA, before sitting on their hands for 90 minutes and then singing it again just before the end. I would hate our atmosphere to be that bad.

 

Can't use the side stands unless the club drops the price, which they won't, and no-one wants to go to the Chapel because it's not near the away fans. It's not really about banter, it's about trying to drown them out by volume.