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What is wrong with America

Red Alert

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Goatboy

Goatboy

Posted
Posted
That's because we're not like you and have no desire to be like you either......Like I've said before, How you live on your island is your business. but accept that other people in other countries have different ideals and values, which is exactly why you struggle with your "expectations"...you expect every one to be just 'you'

 

Take a look at Piers Morgan, a limey who came to the US thinking his UK culture had any kind of value in the US and ended up being one of the most despised people in the media even the liberal blow hards NBC had to fire him in the end

 

Piers Morgan is hated here too.

 

See how much we have in common.

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rpb

rpb

Posted
Posted

Saint George - a serious question...

 

I read a comment from a gun carrying American which stated that whereas he had to register and get insurance for his car, he didn't have to do that for his gun. If that's right (I have no reason to doubt him but it might vary from State to State), wouldn't it be a way forward for the US? You would still have your guns in case the Government suddenly attacks but there would then be a degree of responsibility involved as well.

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Ohio Saint

Ohio Saint

Posted
Posted (edited)
Thats true. What I find odd is that public support for gun ownership has been going up even though the murder rate is declining along with all other developed societies. You'd expect the opposite

 

gun%20rights.png

 

 

That graph is clearly an indication that the aliens have landed and are messing with the logic of us mere humans. They are not just doing crop circles any more, They are sending us their facebook pics!

 

gun-rights---copy-66201.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: If that pic does not make sense to you. Don't ask me to post a picture of the guard instructions diagram on my table saw that I thought looked like a robot Ned Flanders with an erection. :blush:

Edited by Ohio Saint
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Ohio Saint

Ohio Saint

Posted
Posted
Saint George - a serious question...

 

I read a comment from a gun carrying American which stated that whereas he had to register and get insurance for his car, he didn't have to do that for his gun. If that's right (I have no reason to doubt him but it might vary from State to State), wouldn't it be a way forward for the US? You would still have your guns in case the Government suddenly attacks but there would then be a degree of responsibility involved as well.

 

Americans are told in school (Driver's ed) that driving a car is a privilege, but not a right, unlike gun ownersip, which is a constitutional right.

 

This is why they can take away your driving privileges for such things as non-payment of child support. They can do it for just about anything, but the child support thing is a huge one in Ohio, at least. It's the land of the free as long as it's in the constitution.

 

Once again, I have no problem with this kind of stuff. I'm happy here, and I like the people etc (I've said it often enough) These are the laws of the land, and I choose to live here and abide by these laws while they exist........I just wish that St George could understand that Americans are NOT all the same as him, and that a good healthy debate is always an option.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
If that pic does not make sense to you. Don't ask me to post a picture of the guard instructions diagram on my table saw that I thought looked like a robot Ned Flanders with an erection. :blush:

I'm not seeing the resemblance. Post up a pic of the table saw for reference

 

sddefault.jpg

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sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
That's because we're not like you and have no desire to be like you either......Like I've said before, How you live on your island is your business. but accept that other people in other countries have different ideals and values, which is exactly why you struggle with your "expectations"...you expect every one to be just 'you'

 

Take a look at Piers Morgan, a limey who came to the US thinking his UK culture had any kind of value in the US and ended up being one of the most despised people in the media even the liberal blow hards NBC had to fire him in the end

 

"Limey" LOL. You crack me up. Anyway. All this keep your nose out of our business malarkey might wash if it didn't come from someone supposedly in America - a country famous for sticking its collective nose into other peoples business for decades. Not only that, they don't seem to have an qualms about blowing people away on foreign soil as well as their own. Just finishing reading about the my Lai massacre in Vietnam when a troop of very brave soldiers blew away up to 500 old men, women and children. There was one American casualty and he was shot by "friendly fire!" Don't you see the irony? Not that that makes the slightest bit of difference. We live in a very small world now and everything is everybody's business. I think you will find several of us have opinions about Putin and using Cruise missiles in Syria too. What is the world coming to?

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sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
Saint George - a serious question...

 

I read a comment from a gun carrying American which stated that whereas he had to register and get insurance for his car, he didn't have to do that for his gun. If that's right (I have no reason to doubt him but it might vary from State to State), wouldn't it be a way forward for the US? You would still have your guns in case the Government suddenly attacks but there would then be a degree of responsibility involved as well.

 

You can pick up a gun in a Supermarket in Washington State. That is some shopping list. Potatoes. Beans. Coffee. M16 Assault Rifle. Dum Dum bullets. Sugar.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
they don't seem to have an qualms about blowing people away on foreign soil as well as their own. Just finishing reading about the my Lai massacre in Vietnam when a troop of very brave soldiers blew away up to 500 old men, women and children. There was one American casualty and he was shot by "friendly fire!"

 

Don't forget than in the Gulf war more British troops were killed by American 'friendly fire' than by the Iraqis.

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Ohio Saint

Ohio Saint

Posted
Posted
None of our business.

 

Unless we have family involved, it's none of our business whose little girls Jimmy Saville was ****ging in the '70s........But I think it's better that we talk about these things so that we can develop opinions on matters that may one day become relevant to us.

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The Kraken

The Kraken

Posted
Posted

Just for the avoidance of doubt on "limey hating" Saint George. He is, of course, a limey. In his own words from the Moving to USA thread:

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?38012-Moving-to-the-USA&p=1366579#post1366579

 

Made the move and never looked back....Only thing i miss from the UK apart from more regular contact with friends and family is going to Saints games...But even that hole is more than filled by the New Orleans Saints :)......The local stores stock Colman's mustard so i'm good to go :)

Word of advice from my own 'great' experience and from observing the 'mistakes' of one or two other expats.....Once you move here, if you intend to make it permanent, then this 'will be' home...Start thinking of it as that and 'go native' as soon as you can.....'Be' an American and embrace the culture of your new home..........The more unsettled expats i see, are generally the ones that have ended up as just whiney Brits living abroad....Never been able to let go...never really tried. Still thinking of the UK as home. Missing this and missing that and "it's not done like that in the UK" etc etc and never really integrating and seem to be forever homesick.

 

It's not all a bed of roses here that's for sure...you'll probably work harder here than you ever did in the UK, less vacation and there is very little safety net if you hit on hard times....But the Freedom from a dictatorial Nanny State is sooo liberating it's not real...Not sure how it is in Washington but in most States you will regain ownership of your life....especially down here in the deep south ;)

 

Good luck....i couldn't recommend it enough

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Just for the avoidance of doubt on "limey hating" Saint George. He is, of course, a limey. In his own words from the Moving to USA thread:

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?38012-Moving-to-the-USA&p=1366579#post1366579

Still reads like the ramblings of a fantasist to me, with a smattering of obvious rent-a-troll button pushing phrases designed to get a reaction.

 

He lives in Sholing. I know it. You know it. He knows it.

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Ohio Saint

Ohio Saint

Posted
Posted
Still reads like the ramblings of a fantasist to me, with a smattering of obvious rent-a-troll button pushing phrases designed to get a reaction.

 

He lives in Sholing. I know it. You know it. He knows it.

 

Absolutely. What SG seems to deliberately ignore, or is oblivious to, is the fact that Americans embrace the differences. They don't expect everyone to conform to the Fox News agenda of what an American should be. Some Americans will wear kilts because they feel they are Scots, eat sauerkraut because they think they are German......The list goes on and on.....SG is standing on a platform that suggests he is mixing with the skinheads. No tolerance of other cultures, mistrust of any government and complete resistance to any change in the status quo.

 

He is at a point where I don't think it matters what nationality he is. I'm more concerned about his (thankfully) minimal influence in society

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Saint George

Saint George

Posted
Posted
Just for the avoidance of doubt on "limey hating" Saint George. He is, of course, a limey. In his own words from the Moving to USA thread:

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?38012-Moving-to-the-USA&p=1366579#post1366579

 

And still the best advice anyone thinking about moving to the US will ever get.....If you're not careful you could end up like Billy no mates Ohio Saint, who mixes up his skinheads and rednecks, thinks all his neighbors and co workers are dumb and couldn't even find a party to watch a game during the last world cup.

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Saint George

Saint George

Posted
Posted

Wow..looks like some peeps have been holding out on this thread...

 

"A 'seven'-year-old boy and his mother were shot in their legs on their own doorstep"

 

"this becomes the 50th shooting between rival gangs in Greater Manchester in the space of just 16 months and fifth in the last four days"

 

"Police say they have recovered 30 guns off the streets of Salford since February".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270353/Woman-29-young-son-seven-shot-legs-doorstep.html

 

Yup...this is Manchester 'England' ....That's '50' shootings in just 'one' city in the country with the strictest gun control in the world, i didn't think it was possible, what with there being no guns 'an all, Oh wait..the bad guys still have guns, duh!.....So what's wrong with Britain?......You gave up your liberty for this?

 

Ya'll kept this quiet too....Cops shooting a guy because they 'believed' he had a knife?....didn't you guys said **** like that only happens in the US..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264473/Police-shoot-man-believed-possession-knife-officers-twice-tried-Taser-no-apparent-effect.html

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Goatboy

Goatboy

Posted
Posted
Wow..looks like some peeps have been holding out on this thread...

 

"A 'seven'-year-old boy and his mother were shot in their legs on their own doorstep"

 

"this becomes the 50th shooting between rival gangs in Greater Manchester in the space of just 16 months and fifth in the last four days"

 

"Police say they have recovered 30 guns off the streets of Salford since February".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270353/Woman-29-young-son-seven-shot-legs-doorstep.html

 

Yup...this is Manchester 'England' ....That's '50' shootings in just 'one' city in the country with the strictest gun control in the world, i didn't think it was possible, what with there being no guns 'an all, Oh wait..the bad guys still have guns, duh!.....So what's wrong with Britain?......You gave up your liberty for this?

 

Ya'll kept this quiet too....Cops shooting a guy because they 'believed' he had a knife?....didn't you guys said **** like that only happens in the US..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264473/Police-shoot-man-believed-possession-knife-officers-twice-tried-Taser-no-apparent-effect.html

 

You can come back now SG. You'll fit right in.

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saint si

saint si

Posted
Posted
Wow..looks like some peeps have been holding out on this thread...

 

"A 'seven'-year-old boy and his mother were shot in their legs on their own doorstep"

 

"this becomes the 50th shooting between rival gangs in Greater Manchester in the space of just 16 months and fifth in the last four days"

 

"Police say they have recovered 30 guns off the streets of Salford since February".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270353/Woman-29-young-son-seven-shot-legs-doorstep.html

 

Yup...this is Manchester 'England' ....That's '50' shootings in just 'one' city in the country with the strictest gun control in the world, i didn't think it was possible, what with there being no guns 'an all, Oh wait..the bad guys still have guns, duh!.....So what's wrong with Britain?......You gave up your liberty for this?

 

Ya'll kept this quiet too....Cops shooting a guy because they 'believed' he had a knife?....didn't you guys said **** like that only happens in the US..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264473/Police-shoot-man-believed-possession-knife-officers-twice-tried-Taser-no-apparent-effect.html

 

Yes, believe it or not, we have not completely eradicated crime, death and injury in this country. Wow, who knew.

 

Regarding your continued straw man about how we have "given up" our liberty... apart from us all thinking it's a pretty darn good thing not to have lethal ranged weapons in the hands of every member of the public who might want one (or five), what other rights do you think we have forfeited?

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Wow..looks like some peeps have been holding out on this thread...

 

"A 'seven'-year-old boy and his mother were shot in their legs on their own doorstep"

 

"this becomes the 50th shooting between rival gangs in Greater Manchester in the space of just 16 months and fifth in the last four days"

 

"Police say they have recovered 30 guns off the streets of Salford since February".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270353/Woman-29-young-son-seven-shot-legs-doorstep.html

 

Yup...this is Manchester 'England' ....That's '50' shootings in just 'one' city in the country with the strictest gun control in the world, i didn't think it was possible, what with there being no guns 'an all, Oh wait..the bad guys still have guns, duh!.....So what's wrong with Britain?......You gave up your liberty for this?

 

Ya'll kept this quiet too....Cops shooting a guy because they 'believed' he had a knife?....didn't you guys said **** like that only happens in the US..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264473/Police-shoot-man-believed-possession-knife-officers-twice-tried-Taser-no-apparent-effect.html

It's only about four hours on the train from central station to Manchester for you, so you could have a little day out to investigate.

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted (edited)
Wow..looks like some peeps have been holding out on this thread...

 

"A 'seven'-year-old boy and his mother were shot in their legs on their own doorstep"

 

"this becomes the 50th shooting between rival gangs in Greater Manchester in the space of just 16 months and fifth in the last four days"

 

"Police say they have recovered 30 guns off the streets of Salford since February".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270353/Woman-29-young-son-seven-shot-legs-doorstep.html

 

Yup...this is Manchester 'England' ....That's '50' shootings in just 'one' city in the country with the strictest gun control in the world, i didn't think it was possible, what with there being no guns 'an all, Oh wait..the bad guys still have guns, duh!.....So what's wrong with Britain?......You gave up your liberty for this?

 

Ya'll kept this quiet too....Cops shooting a guy because they 'believed' he had a knife?....didn't you guys said **** like that only happens in the US..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264473/Police-shoot-man-believed-possession-knife-officers-twice-tried-Taser-no-apparent-effect.html

 

Oh sh!t, no one told me we had crime over here! Better go buy myself a firearm to shoot the bad guys before they get me. Won't be able to sleep at night now unless I have a pistol under my pillow - I guess that's what Liberty feels like yeah?

Edited by aintforever
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Ohio Saint

Ohio Saint

Posted
Posted
If you're not careful you could end up like Billy no mates Ohio Saint, who mixes up his skinheads and rednecks, thinks all his neighbors and co workers are dumb and couldn't even find a party to watch a game during the last world cup.

 

My life is clearly different from yours. It's the American way.

 

For the record, I don't think my co-workers are dumb, except Ryan, he is a ******. I like and respect all my neigbours because I just got lucky when I bought my house. I do know the difference between a redneck and a skinhead, but to be honest, it is a tad more difficult to determine which of those you are on the internet. Sorry if I put you in the wrong bracket there.

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Micky

Micky

Posted
Posted
Wow..looks like some peeps have been holding out on this thread...

 

"A 'seven'-year-old boy and his mother were shot in their legs on their own doorstep"

 

"this becomes the 50th shooting between rival gangs in Greater Manchester in the space of just 16 months and fifth in the last four days"

 

"Police say they have recovered 30 guns off the streets of Salford since February".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3270353/Woman-29-young-son-seven-shot-legs-doorstep.html

 

Yup...this is Manchester 'England' ....That's '50' shootings in just 'one' city in the country with the strictest gun control in the world, i didn't think it was possible, what with there being no guns 'an all, Oh wait..the bad guys still have guns, duh!.....So what's wrong with Britain?......You gave up your liberty for this?

 

Ya'll kept this quiet too....Cops shooting a guy because they 'believed' he had a knife?....didn't you guys said **** like that only happens in the US..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264473/Police-shoot-man-believed-possession-knife-officers-twice-tried-Taser-no-apparent-effect.html

 

Ahhh so you've noticed, we have guns over here too, we were hoping to keep that quiet from you. Your not the brightest are you, all your post does is reinforce the argument for stricter gun controls. Do you think that any of the guns that were used in shootings here were licensed? Nope, probably not. Do you think they were legally bought or held? That'll be a no too. Do you think that they were obtained from the local gun store for a couple of bucks? Naaahhhh they would have cost a packet on the black market.

 

Yep, it is just the bad guys that have guns - the everyday normal person in the street doesn't have guns, and I'm just guessing here, but I reckon that the normal everyday person doesn't want or need a gun either - call it a hunch. Now, if you are thick enough to think that means we have given up our liberty, you really are dumber than dumb. Your argument appears to be that the man with the biggest gun wins - explain where that stops - and how that gains liberty for anyone?

 

As for your second link, again, you do nothing but reinforce our argument. Yep, we shot him, but not before trying to restrain him with non-lethal force, which unfortunately for this guy was ineffective - notwithstanding, the polices first thought was not to just shoot him. As it happens, it's not really that relevant in the grand scheme of the argument which centres on the difference in attitude to gun ownership, use and control.

 

Yep, 50 shootings in Manchester, very, very high number for a single city here in the UK - but I wonder how those figures would compare to a city of similar size over there in the good old liberated US of A, eh?

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Saint George

Saint George

Posted
Posted

Oh look, it gets worse!......."The ONS figures show there were '540 firearms offences in the West Midlands in 2013-14, three times fewer

 

than the 1,594 incidents in London

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/20/uks-gun-capital-rancour-and-regret-over-west-midlands-label

 

“There’s a lot, a lot, of gun crime going on,” says Gleen Reid, who set up the anti-gun campaign Families for Peace after her 28-year-old

 

son Corey was shot dead outside a nightclub in 2001. “We’re hearing about a shooting here, a shooting there, stabbing here, but because

 

there’s no fatality it’s not in the news. It’s like it’s becoming the norm.”

 

 

"Just before Christmas, she says, a group of young people were shot at outside a row of shops in Newtown, another troubled area of inner-

 

city Birmingham, and luckily no one was injured. West Midlands police could find no record of the incident, but news of the shooting

 

spread widely in the local area."

 

 

 

On top of that London alone has nearly 1,000 knife crime victims a month!...yup, that's 'ONE THOUSAND' knife victims a month in one

 

city!....do they just line all you guys up against the wall and stab you? not that there would be much you could do about it if they did

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/1000-knife-crime-victims-in-london-each-month-shocking-new-figures-show-8681511.html

 

The way you lot have been wringing your hands over the US, anyone would have thought gun and violent crime was non existent in your gun

 

free and totalitarian State (should i add knife free to that as well?...they're banned also yes?)....Fifteen hundred shootings just in London alone in a year say's otherwise and it's so rampant "it's not even "in the news"

 

 

 

Oh look....a 15 year old shoots dead a school girl on his birthday!...no, not in the US but in your own back yard, Hackney, east

 

London!...i didn't think kids could get their hands on guns over there? Only a "Dumb Yank" issue you said..... http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/teenager-guilty-of-shooting-schoolgirl-dead-on-his-birthday-9763551.html

 

and normal law abiding decent citizens can't even carry a water pistol without getting arrested!....You guys have issues for sure.

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RoswellSaint

RoswellSaint

Posted
Posted

Saint George - I don't know why you feel the need to be so down on the country of your birth - it is not a requirement as part of becoming an American. Assuming, for now, that you actually are. I have been an American citizen for about 10 years - I love this country but I love the UK too. This country has problems just as the UK does. One problem is people feeling the need to yell and scream at people who have a different opinion - like yourself. Another problem is the level of gun violence - no one in their right mind can claim it is not an issue. There are many different views on how to tackle this - but something has to be done. What do you think the answer is to all the mass shootings?

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Goatboy

Goatboy

Posted
Posted
Oh look, it gets worse!......."The ONS figures show there were '540 firearms offences in the West Midlands in 2013-14, three times fewer

 

than the 1,594 incidents in London

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/20/uks-gun-capital-rancour-and-regret-over-west-midlands-label

 

“There’s a lot, a lot, of gun crime going on,” says Gleen Reid, who set up the anti-gun campaign Families for Peace after her 28-year-old

 

son Corey was shot dead outside a nightclub in 2001. “We’re hearing about a shooting here, a shooting there, stabbing here, but because

 

there’s no fatality it’s not in the news. It’s like it’s becoming the norm.”

 

 

"Just before Christmas, she says, a group of young people were shot at outside a row of shops in Newtown, another troubled area of inner-

 

city Birmingham, and luckily no one was injured. West Midlands police could find no record of the incident, but news of the shooting

 

spread widely in the local area."

 

 

 

On top of that London alone has nearly 1,000 knife crime victims a month!...yup, that's 'ONE THOUSAND' knife victims a month in one

 

city!....do they just line all you guys up against the wall and stab you? not that there would be much you could do about it if they did

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/1000-knife-crime-victims-in-london-each-month-shocking-new-figures-show-8681511.html

 

The way you lot have been wringing your hands over the US, anyone would have thought gun and violent crime was non existent in your gun

 

free and totalitarian State (should i add knife free to that as well?...they're banned also yes?)....Fifteen hundred shootings just in London alone in a year say's otherwise and it's so rampant "it's not even "in the news"

 

 

 

Oh look....a 15 year old shoots dead a school girl on his birthday!...no, not in the US but in your own back yard, Hackney, east

 

London!...i didn't think kids could get their hands on guns over there? Only a "Dumb Yank" issue you said..... http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/teenager-guilty-of-shooting-schoolgirl-dead-on-his-birthday-9763551.html

 

and normal law abiding decent citizens can't even carry a water pistol without getting arrested!....You guys have issues for sure.

 

Did you move to America to escape all this senseless violence?

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Ohio Saint

Ohio Saint

Posted
Posted
Saint George - I don't know why you feel the need to be so down on the country of your birth - it is not a requirement as part of becoming an American. Assuming, for now, that you actually are. I have been an American citizen for about 10 years - I love this country but I love the UK too. This country has problems just as the UK does. One problem is people feeling the need to yell and scream at people who have a different opinion - like yourself. Another problem is the level of gun violence - no one in their right mind can claim it is not an issue. There are many different views on how to tackle this - but something has to be done. What do you think the answer is to all the mass shootings?

 

 

Common sense and a general understanding of perspective will get you nowhere with SG.

 

This thread went totally nuts when he was Sarnia Saint, I see no reason to let it slide into reason and integrity simply because he is using a different account.

 

This thread has become a weird form of masturbation for everyone who posts here, it's just that SG is the only one who gets to a clamax.

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RoswellSaint

RoswellSaint

Posted
Posted
Common sense and a general understanding of perspective will get you nowhere with SG.

 

This thread went totally nuts when he was Sarnia Saint, I see no reason to let it slide into reason and integrity simply because he is using a different account.

 

This thread has become a weird form of masturbation for everyone who posts here, it's just that SG is the only one who gets to a clamax.

 

lol very true!

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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

Posted
Posted
Just for the avoidance of doubt on "limey hating" Saint George. He is, of course, a limey. In his own words from the Moving to USA thread:

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?38012-Moving-to-the-USA&p=1366579#post1366579

 

So more hard work, less holiday, no public services and more violence. I can't wait to emigrate away from this nanny state which has never once stopped me doing something I felt like doing.

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PhilippineSaint

PhilippineSaint

Posted
Posted
That graph is clearly an indication that the aliens have landed and are messing with the logic of us mere humans. They are not just doing crop circles any more, They are sending us their facebook pics!

 

gun-rights---copy-66201.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: If that pic does not make sense to you. Don't ask me to post a picture of the guard instructions diagram on my table saw that I thought looked like a robot Ned Flanders with an erection. :blush:

 

To people of a certain age that is more the Vision on Frog than ned flanders with a hard on

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Bath Saint

Bath Saint

Posted
Posted

Apologies in advance - this is a Daily Heil link:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3275534/Devastated-relatives-file-lawsuit-against-sheriff-s-deputy-shot-dead-unarmed-teenager-flashed-car-lights-him.html

 

A quote in case you can't stomach clicking on the link

 

"The devastated family of an unarmed teenage boy who was shot dead by a Michigan sheriff's deputy earlier this year after flashing his car lights at him has filed a lawsuit against the officer.

Deven Guilford, 17, was pulled over by Sgt. Jonathan Frost, of Eaton County Sheriff's Department, on a cold evening in February after flashing the officer because he believed his brights were on.

During the traffic stop, Guilford refused to put his hands behind his back or give Frost any official documents, leading to an altercation between them, according to county prosecutor Doug Lloyd.

This ended with Guilford lying dead in a snow-filled ditch, having been shot seven times by Frost."

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