What is wrong with America

[whelk]

Yeah know that it's just the generalization by you Brits that ****es me off

 

It's generalisation btw

[whelk]

There were a great many of those generalisations running around this thread (ok, it appears from both sides of the pond). Maybe not from you but the title of the thread itself is a generalisation (I mean, for example, ask any Canadian if they're north American).

 

I mean, I like Americans, I've stayed for months on ends with some lovely ones where they live and to me...well, Sarnia saint there kinda summed it up in that thread comes off as a bunch of ignorant Brits belittling citizens of the US....which we are not.

 

Not seen such a confused approach as yours for many a while. Ignorant Brits? Most of this thread has been quite level headed and full of sensible comment however your ramblings don't make much sense. Have struggled to keep up with your backtracking and you seem to be arguing against points very few have made when challenged.

 

As for Sarnia he is just incoherent.

[sussexsaint]

It's generalisation btw

 

[St Marco]

Spend a lot of time in the states and my missus is American. If I have learnt one thing from my time there around them it is that the majority don't want guns to be available in its current state, at least the ones I talk to.

The problem is if something is on sale than people are going to buy it. There is no need to have military grade weapons available to the public i.e AR rifles. Things will never change though when you have many who believe in Republican ideals of the right to bare arms etc. They will reject anything that looks like infringing on the second amendment. Even if to most people it is common sense that things change and make obtaining them stricter. Slowly though I think more of them are waking up and new laws on how guns are sold might come in eventually.

[aintforever]

Yeah know that it's just the generalization by you Brits that ****es me off

 

You seem a bit touchy about that, hit a nerve maybe?

 

Fact is the US gun policy is retarded. If I lived there I would be embarrassed that my democratically elected government couldn't even try and sort it out. I don't blame you for being a bit touchy about being tarred with the same brush as some of the arsehole yanks you see on the TV explaining their need to own high powered assault rifles.

 

It's obviously not right to generalise but fact is if there was a political will to change the gun laws then they would change. We can only assume that most Americans are a bit clueless when it comes to this issue because they choose to allow these massacres to happen.

[shurlock]

If you believe one very influential strand of thought, it's all the Scots-Irish fault anyway. If in doubt, blame Ulster (or perhaps the English or even the Romans)

 

Anatole Lieven's "America Right or Wrong: An Anatomy of American Nationalism" and James Webb's "Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America" aren't a bad place to start, though the narrative has been questioned by serious historians -see Ulster to America: The Scots-Irish Migration Experience, 1680-1830.

Edited 4 January, 2015 by shurlock

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You seem a bit touchy about that, hit a nerve maybe?

 

Fact is the US gun policy is retarded. If I lived there I would be embarrassed that my democratically elected government couldn't even try and sort it out. I don't blame you for being a bit touchy about being tarred with the same brush as some of the arsehole yanks you see on the TV explaining their need to own high powered assault rifles.

 

It's obviously not right to generalise but fact is if there was a political will to change the gun laws then they would change. We can only assume that most Americans are a bit clueless when it comes to this issue because they choose to allow these massacres to happen.

 

I've yet to meet or see (on tele/in print) an American come up with a decent, reasonable argument for keeping the gun laws as they are.

 

I'm lucky enough to have met many wonderful Americans, and as you say many of them know it is ridiculous - a lot cite it as a reason they move away (amongst others of course).

 

On the other hands you just have constitutional obsessive, who I outlined above. Republicans, who from my experience working with briefly whilst I was in Philidelphia - who argue "well if we didn't have guns people would just stab each other like in the UK. And besides, guns being illegal doesn't mean everyone won't still have them". That is genuinely a paraphrased version of an argument I heard from them - they seemed genuinely perplexed when I said I did not know a single person that owned a gun, and I had never seen a real, functional gun first hand in my real.

 

Or, you just have the angry shouty Alex Jones types, that deny there is any problem at all.

[CB Fry]

I've yet to meet or see (on tele/in print) an American come up with a decent, reasonable argument for keeping the gun laws as they are.

 

I'm lucky enough to have met many wonderful Americans, and as you say many of them know it is ridiculous - a lot cite it as a reason they move away (amongst others of course).

 

On the other hands you just have constitutional obsessive, who I outlined above. Republicans, who from my experience working with briefly whilst I was in Philidelphia - who argue "well if we didn't have guns people would just stab each other like in the UK. And besides, guns being illegal doesn't mean everyone won't still have them". That is genuinely a paraphrased version of an argument I heard from them - they seemed genuinely perplexed when I said I did not know a single person that owned a gun, and I had never seen a real, functional gun first hand in my real.

 

Or, you just have the angry shouty Alex Jones types, that deny there is any problem at all.

I've spent some time with some perfectly pleasant Americans through work and once we talked about the "we need guns to ensure the government is afraid of the people" argument mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

It is so ridiculous to my lily-livered European pinko ears but seems hard wired into the wider American psyche as a central truth. As if individual members of the public owning a handgun is, in itself, a way to prevent dictatorship. Borderline inexplicable to me but seems a fundamental core belief.

 

It would be a mountain to climb to change that.

[Hockey_saint]

Not seen such a confused approach as yours for many a while. Ignorant Brits? Most of this thread has been quite level headed and full of sensible comment however your ramblings don't make much sense. Have struggled to keep up with your backtracking and you seem to be arguing against points very few have made when challenged.

 

As for Sarnia he is just incoherent.

 

I wouldn't say it was confused (hey, I've had shedloads of neurosurgery and I tend to try to find tenuous links before I get to the crux...call it a neuro pathway issue) but I still think that there are always more issues at play than just the gun control issue...ok, I can see that as a poster pointed out above, the causal link is obvious and that should be the end of it but I always try to find more, perhaps look at the underlying issues, now maybe that appears grasping to you but take it as that.

 

Maybe I should have come to the point quicker but I wouldn't consider it back-tracking.

 

As far as Sarnia saint goes, he has a point, these threads often come off as a bunch of know-nothing foreigners sticking their two-pence in when they don't understand which, I pointed out that quite a few have a fair bit of experience in the field.

[aintforever]

I wouldn't say it was confused (hey, I've had shedloads of neurosurgery and I tend to try to find tenuous links before I get to the crux...call it a neuro pathway issue) but I still think that there are always more issues at play than just the gun control issue...ok, I can see that as a poster pointed out above, the causal link is obvious and that should be the end of it but I always try to find more, perhaps look at the underlying issues, now maybe that appears grasping to you but take it as that.

 

Maybe I should have come to the point quicker but I wouldn't consider it back-tracking.

 

As far as Sarnia saint goes, he has a point, these threads often come off as a bunch of know-nothing foreigners sticking their two-pence in when they don't understand which, I pointed out that quite a few have a fair bit of experience in the field.

 

Of course there are underlying issues (race, inequality etc) but geeze, at least try and sort the screamingly obvious out first - like don't make it so easy for a deranged teenager to get his hands on a semi-automatic assault rifle and unlimited ammo.

 

Do you think it's wise to sell these sort of weapons to the general public?

[Hockey_saint]

Of course there are underlying issues (race, inequality etc) but geeze, at least try and sort the screamingly obvious out first - like don't make it so easy for a deranged teenager to get his hands on a semi-automatic assault rifle and unlimited ammo.

 

Do you think it's wise to sell these sort of weapons to the general public?

 

No, I don't think it's a good idea to be able to just walk in anywhere and buy a gun, no matter your age. The problem is that I think you'd even need tests if adults bought them but again, would these work? I doubt they would and a blanket ban would just drive them underground which would result in them proliferating where you wouldn't (or would?) want them proliferating....it's like a gordian knot :s

[SarniaSaint]

Of course there are underlying issues (race, inequality etc) but geeze, at least try and sort the screamingly obvious out first - like don't make it so easy for a deranged teenager to get his hands on a semi-automatic assault rifle and unlimited ammo.

 

Do you think it's wise to sell these sort of weapons to the general public?

 

If you seriously think you can walk in a supermarket and buy a AK47 you are very mistaken. You can get them but it is illegal.........hope that clears another myth.........just like you can in the UK

[Trader]

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=AK47

 

Doesn't look very illegal to me.

[aintforever]

If you seriously think you can walk in a supermarket and buy a AK47 you are very mistaken. You can get them but it is illegal.........hope that clears another myth.........just like you can in the UK

 

Assault weapons are not illegal in the US. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was lifted in 2004 I think.

[sussexsaint]

There is absolutely no instance in which an assault rife should ever be owned by a member of the general public, its simply insanity and there are no arguments that cut it.

 

I lived in Wisconsin for 3 months about 20 years ago and there was a gun counter in the local Cub supermarket akin to the firework ones we get here in November

 

I felt very uneasy every time I walked by it, everything about it was just wrong

Edited 5 January, 2015 by sussexsaint

[hutch]

Nope. I even tried google translate, but that didn't help.

[sussexsaint]

Nope. I even tried google translate, but that didn't help.

 

sorry fat thumbs on phone

[SarniaSaint]

Is this the end of the Brit (hey we are superior....... LOL) vs us North Americans ????

[Jonnyboy]

Is this the end of the Brit (hey we are superior....... LOL) vs us North Americans ????

 

No. We are superior.

[hutch]

Is this the end of the Brit (hey we are superior....... LOL) vs us North Americans ????

You think it's only the British that find the US gun control laws incomprehensible?

[SarniaSaint]

No. We are superior.

 

LOL

[SarniaSaint]

You think it's only the British that find the US gun control laws incomprehensible?

 

If don't understand English.........yeah

[LVSaint]

Assault weapons are not illegal in the US. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was lifted in 2004 I think.

 

Yes, it was only a ten year ban that started in 1994. It also suffered from many loopholes allowing the manufacturers a way around making their wares legal. Come 2004, there wasn't enough support to renew it. Clever.

[Hockey_saint]

Yes, it was only a ten year ban that started in 1994. It also suffered from many loopholes allowing the manufacturers a way around making their wares legal. Come 2004, there wasn't enough support to renew it. Clever.

 

Clearly it was a compromise to appease the gun lobbists. It's essentially a classic example of the United States throughout history where there are very powerful business (money people) behind such decisions...Kinda like the Boston tea party where, actually, the only reason they threw British tea in the water was because it was cheaper than the stuff the traders there could produce and they (the money people) agitated to get this to happen so I think the crux of this whole arguement could basically boil down to power and influence and the gun lobby, like the tobacco lobyists before them...have the power and influence to run rings around "democracy".

[Goatboy]

I believe in the right to bare arms. I used to work in an office and it was unbearable in the summer months. Being heavily tattooed should not mean that i have to suffer a sweaty work day. I quit in the end and now happily wear a vest on site for most of June/July.

[buctootim]

I believe in the right to bare arms.

 

Much better than bear arms. All that sweaty fur.

[Trader]

Anyway, we all have the right to bare arms in this country - it's just that in this weather I prefer long sleeves.

 

Oi Goatboy, get your own jokes.

[Goatboy]

Oi Goatboy, get your own jokes.

 

Soz trader. Missed that.

[Trader]

S'alright

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Sweet jesus, how does one even get to this conclusion:

 

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I've spent some time with some perfectly pleasant Americans through work and once we talked about the "we need guns to ensure the government is afraid of the people" argument mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

It is so ridiculous to my lily-livered European pinko ears but seems hard wired into the wider American psyche as a central truth. As if individual members of the public owning a handgun is, in itself, a way to prevent dictatorship. Borderline inexplicable to me but seems a fundamental core belief.

 

It would be a mountain to climb to change that.

 

Sorry CB, only just seen this post.

 

I think what you say does make sense, and I think I largely agree. I'm still going to go ahead and mock the absurdity of it and point to the hypocrisies.

 

As you say, changing attitudes would be a monumental task. It does appear to be an entirely different mindset, as Trump demonstrates.

[ecuk268]

It doesn't get any better....

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/boy-five-shoots-dead-ninemonthold-baby-brother-9989512.html

[Saint_clark]

It doesn't get any better....

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/boy-five-shoots-dead-ninemonthold-baby-brother-9989512.html

 

Sheriff White told KETV: "We have a lot of people that own weapons. They hunt. They target shoot. ... Most people are very safe with them, and this is one of those cases where everything went together in the wrong way."

 

Oopsie, oh well, nevermind.

Unbelievable.

[sadoldgit]

Sweet jesus, how does one even get to this conclusion:

 

 

I guess he still dreams of great times like the gunfight at the OK Corral. Do you think that American's sit in their offices with their guns on their desks waiting for people to burst in with AK47s for a firefight Donald? The baby didn't have a fighting chance as most Americans who are shot don't. This is not the world of quick draw and one against one on the main street. Most people who kill with guns catch their victims by surprise as the last thing they want it to be harmed themselves. Owning a gun does not prevent you from being shot. This bloke has made an awful lot of money but he doesn't seem to possess any sense.

[CB Saint]

"guns don't kill people", no your five year old does when you leave a loaded gun lying about on the bed

 

The issue in the states is that a large proportion of the population do not have the common sense required to own a gun responsibly.

[buctootim]

"guns don't kill people", no your five year old does when you leave a loaded gun lying about on the bed

 

The issue in the states is that a large proportion of the population do not have the common sense required to own a gun responsibly.

 

I posted a stat earlier in the thread. Families who keep guns at home are 15 times more likely to kill each other or themselves than they are to be killed by an outsider - which presumably is the reason they kept the gun in the first place. If you want your family to be safe, don't keep a gun at home.

[doddisalegend]

There is absolutely no instance in which an assault rife should ever be owned by a member of the general public, its simply insanity and there are no arguments that cut it.

 

I lived in Wisconsin for 3 months about 20 years ago and there was a gun counter in the local Cub supermarket akin to the firework ones we get here in November

 

I felt very uneasy every time I walked by it, everything about it was just wrong

 

 

The Swiss may disagree

 

In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or "selective fire") stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

[buctootim]

The Swiss may disagree

 

In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or "selective fire") stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

 

Thats a special case. The Swiss have a defence policy which is based on a very small army but a large reserve of trained citizen volunteers who keep military grade weapons in case of invasion. The Swedes used to have something similar in that villages would have their own armoury that citizens would go to in time of war. As society became less homogenous that broke down.

 

edit: just read wiki link which makes that clear.

Edited 20 January, 2015 by buctootim

[doddisalegend]

Thats a special case. The Swiss have a defence policy which is based on a very small army but a large reserve of trained citizen volunteers who keep military grade weapons in case of invasion. The Swedes used to have something similar in that villages would have their own armoury that citizens would go to in time of war. As society became less homogenous that broke down.

 

edit: just read wiki link which makes that clear.

 

I understand why the Swiss do it but I think it shows people can keep guns and not be a danger to themselves and their neighbours all depends on the society the guns are kept in.

[sadoldgit]

I understand why the Swiss do it but I think it shows people can keep guns and not be a danger to themselves and their neighbours all depends on the society the guns are kept in.

 

This is exactly the problem though. Guns in themselves are not the issue. The issue is people - or some people. No guns in the house, nobody gets shot.

 

I watched a programme yesterday about guns in America. I featured a shop called Gunsmoke where they specialise is bespoke weaponry. A guy wanted a "Zombie Gun" specially made so they made him the cut down bespoke shotgun for shooting up Zombies. Yes, this is in America.

 

At one point the team were getting a bit fractious with each other so it was suggested that they go out with their favourite zombie killing guns and shoot up some zombies. No zombies unfortunately just a target full of peanut butter to look like zombie brains when it was hit. They took great relish in shooting the brains out.

 

Part of the programme showed the owner of the shop out shopping for a rocket launcher. They guy selling him one took him out to try it and arrived in a jeep bristling with guns, which the guy also bought. They had great fun in shooting up a car on a rubbish site.

 

Finally when the gun was ready they went to try it out on proper zombies - well, dummy zombies at least - and had a wonderful time blowing them away.

 

They were better armed than the standard British army squaddie. Quite chilling to watch.

[Wrensup]

This is exactly the problem though. Guns in themselves are not the issue. The issue is people - or some people. No guns in the house, nobody gets shot.

 

I watched a programme yesterday about guns in America. I featured a shop called Gunsmoke where they specialise is bespoke weaponry. A guy wanted a "Zombie Gun" specially made so they made him the cut down bespoke shotgun for shooting up Zombies. Yes, this is in America.

 

At one point the team were getting a bit fractious with each other so it was suggested that they go out with their favourite zombie killing guns and shoot up some zombies. No zombies unfortunately just a target full of peanut butter to look like zombie brains when it was hit. They took great relish in shooting the brains out.

 

Part of the programme showed the owner of the shop out shopping for a rocket launcher. They guy selling him one took him out to try it and arrived in a jeep bristling with guns, which the guy also bought. They had great fun in shooting up a car on a rubbish site.

 

Finally when the gun was ready they went to try it out on proper zombies - well, dummy zombies at least - and had a wonderful time blowing them away.

 

They were better armed than the standard British army squaddie. Quite chilling to watch.

 

American Guns?

 

Pretty sure that episode with the zombie gun is to do with the guy who is the author of a book about how to survive a Zombie apocalypse or something in fairness.

[Saint_Abroad]

I guess he still dreams of great times like the gunfight at the OK Corral. Do you think that American's sit in their offices with their guns on their desks waiting for people to burst in with AK47s for a firefight Donald? The baby didn't have a fighting chance as most Americans who are shot don't. This is not the world of quick draw and one against one on the main street. Most people who kill with guns catch their victims by surprise as the last thing they want it to be harmed themselves. Owning a gun does not prevent you from being shot. This bloke has made an awful lot of money but he doesn't seem to possess any sense.

 

I think he's referring to the American concept of concealed carry. It's a special permit, given by a state based on a variety of measures (different state to state) that enable one to carry a fire arm (generally not the AK-47 you mentioned) in a concealed location on the person.

[buctootim]

I understand why the Swiss do it but I think it shows people can keep guns and not be a danger to themselves and their neighbours all depends on the society the guns are kept in.

 

I think it shows that properly trained soldiers who have them for a purpose can be trusted. People who want them because they fear the government / zombie apocalypse / their neighbour probably cant.

[sadoldgit]

American Guns?

 

Pretty sure that episode with the zombie gun is to do with the guy who is the author of a book about how to survive a Zombie apocalypse or something in fairness.

 

Yes it was American Guns. If there is ever a Zombie apocalypse I want that guy as my neighbour!

[alpine_saint]

I've been to Idaho.

 

Its a very strange place.

[scotty]

Sweet jesus, how does one even get to this conclusion:

 

 

He is probably one of the nra idiots who suggested after the last high-school massacre that if only all the other students had been armed, they could have killed the gun-toting student and innocent lives would have been saved. Way to go, lets arm hormone-laden adolescents to the teeth.....what harm could it do??

[SarniaSaint]

I've been to Idaho.

 

Its a very strange place.

 

No it ain't

[SuperMikey]

Yes it was American Guns. If there is ever a Zombie apocalypse I want that guy as my neighbour!

 

I'm assuming that guy is Max Brooks - son of Mel (Brooks that is, not Mel C). Writer of the excellent Zombie Survival Guide and also my favourite book, World War Z which was horribly adapted (and I use that term very loosely indeed) into a film by Brad Pitt.

 

I'll weigh in on the gun issue as well while i'm here. Guns make me feel incredibly uneasy and in my view they shouldn't be in a civilian setting. The whole argument about civilians being armed to protect themselves against the government is total bullsh!t too, it's just a way for conspiracy theorists to have something to keep them company on cold, lonely nights in their tents in the mountains. Although an M16 doesn't look very comfortable to spoon with.

[Hockey_saint]

I'm assuming that guy is Max Brooks - son of Mel (Brooks that is, not Mel C). Writer of the excellent Zombie Survival Guide and also my favourite book, World War Z which was horribly adapted (and I use that term very loosely indeed) into a film by Brad Pitt.

 

I'll weigh in on the gun issue as well while i'm here. Guns make me feel incredibly uneasy and in my view they shouldn't be in a civilian setting. The whole argument about civilians being armed to protect themselves against the government is total bullsh!t too, it's just a way for conspiracy theorists to have something to keep them company on cold, lonely nights in their tents in the mountains. Although an M16 doesn't look very comfortable to spoon with.

 

What do you think lurk in those mountains? effin great big bears! there's serious wilderness out there you know? there are places over there that need that type of protection...I mean, imagine calling the police here if you're being mugged. You'll wait an hour for them to come and say they can't do anything about it. Well try phoning the cops when a black bear is attacking you(and I've camped in a lot of places where we've have to put our food, spray cans and anything else sweet smelling up a tree so it doesnt attract them) so no, in those situations, a gun would come in pretty darn handy.

[sadoldgit]

Not being precious LOL ......but I have lived here for 40 years and there is no insane love for firearms.....just that you have the right to protect yourself......wouldn't you like that on any night in the UK??

 

I know he wasn't in England, but it was just as well Oscar Pistorious had a gun to protect himself from an unarmed woman sitting on the loo.