CB Fry Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 I dunno CB Fry, a thing you often hear said is that Canada has same profusion of firearms, but nowhere near the same level of gun deaths. If as I suspect hockey saint is trying to point finger at gang & drug cultures, he might have a point. Not that I particularly care too much bout who wins arguments, i just wish bros would stop shooting bros! Edit: Or at least wait for zombie uprising! Canada's got a Bigfoot wandering about. That's going to focus the mind. No fu ck er is wasting Canadian bullets on shooting their fellow man. A Bigfoot FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 anything that draws fire from the grizzlies, is ok by me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 (edited) I...and you, know someone who knows someone who can get you the assault rifle you desire...Simple numbers. If everyone knows someone who can get one there must be loads about. How many people have been shot by an assault rifle in the UK in the past 10 years? How many have been seized in police raids? Also you are wrong about restrictions on obtaining a gun in the US - flat wrong as Clinton used to say. The state by state restrictions are optional in that they apply to gunshops only. If you want to buy a gun no questions asked you simply go to one of the 5,000 gunfairs held each year. http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21712820 Edited 2 January, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 I dunno CB Fry, a thing you often hear said is that Canada has same profusion of firearms, but nowhere near the same level of gun deaths. If as I suspect hockey saint is trying to point finger at gang & drug cultures, he might have a point. Not that I particularly care too much bout who wins arguments, i just wish bros would stop shooting bros! Edit: Or at least wait for zombie uprising! Thank you Bearsy. That would be one aspect that I would point at. But again one of many, many that we do not have here. My point actually is a bit more basal in that you sound like a moron if you a. ignore historical relevance b. rely on statistical data alone without thinking about those facts and c. you end up sounding like a German concerning world war 2 and the word that ends all debates online. It just sounds too one dimensional....maybe it fits in with the posters on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 If everyone knows someone who can get one there must be loads about. How many people have been shot by an assault rifle in the UK in the past 10 years? How many have been seized in police raids? Also you are wrong about restrictions on obtaining a gun in the US - flat wrong as Clinton used to say. The state by state restrictions are optional in that they apply to gunshops only. If you want to buy a gun no questions asked you simply go to one of the 5,000 gunfairs held each year. I was simply trying to point out that more often than not there is an added level of "background checks" than simply walking up and buying a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 Thank you Bearsy. That would be one aspect that I would point at. But again one of many, many that we do not have here. My point actually is a bit more basal in that you sound like a moron if you a. ignore historical relevance b. rely on statistical data alone without thinking about those facts and c. you end up sounding like a German concerning world war 2 and the word that ends all debates online. It just sounds too one dimensional....maybe it fits in with the posters on this thread. You want a one dimensional view, how about this pearler at the beginning of this thread. I think you'll find if you look at it statistically, they have a population of over 200 million and rising, ours is a lot smaller....essentially, things like that happen here too...just not as often. Can you finally tell us all when "something like that" last happened here in the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 I was simply trying to point out that more often than not there is an added level of "background checks" than simply walking up and buying a gun. 'More often than not' is absolutely meaningless in restricting supply. All someone who wouldnt pass the background check needs to do is go to the 'not' place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 'More often than not' is absolutely meaningless in restricting supply. All someone who wouldnt pass the background check needs to do is go to the 'not' place. You've got a point. But it's a hell of a way to travel I suppose but then I suppose if you're after a gun. CB, I think another poster gave you a few examples, Raul Moat (sp?) for example. There are not that many but it's just what I'm trying to say, you could say "gun crime is much worse in the US than the UK" and you'd be right, I'm just more interested in WHY and I don't think a blanket statement like "it's because they can get guns easier" cuts the mustard. Please excuse my rambling (a lot of rambling) but essentially, this is the crux of what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 I dunno CB Fry, a thing you often hear said is that Canada has same profusion of firearms, but nowhere near the same level of gun deaths. If as I suspect hockey saint is trying to point finger at gang & drug cultures, he might have a point. Not that I particularly care too much bout who wins arguments, i just wish bros would stop shooting bros! Edit: Or at least wait for zombie uprising! 42% of American households own guns, compared to 15% in Canada. The death rate by firearms in the United States was*10.2 per 100,000 people 2009; in Canada, the rate was 2.5 http://guncontrol.ca/overview-gun-control-us-canada-global/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 http://www.motherjones.com/files/ownership-death630.png Across US states, the higher the level of ownership, the more gun deaths there are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 You've got a point. But it's a hell of a way to travel I suppose but then I suppose if you're after a gun. CB, I think another poster gave you a few examples, Raul Moat (sp?) for example. There are not that many but it's just what I'm trying to say, you could say "gun crime is much worse in the US than the UK" and you'd be right, I'm just more interested in WHY and I don't think a blanket statement like "it's because they can get guns easier" cuts the mustard. Please excuse my rambling (a lot of rambling) but essentially, this is the crux of what I'm saying. Raul Moat is not a two year old in Asda killing his mother. There are plenty of Raul Moats on the US. Far more, per head, than here. Your search for why reads more like a rag bag of excuses, especially when you start blaming slavery. The simple equation of fewer guns= fewer gun deaths is the biggest, clearest WHY of the lot but you are contorting arguments to desperately avoid facing into that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 You've got a point. But it's a hell of a way to travel I suppose but then I suppose if you're after a gun. CB, I think another poster gave you a few examples, Raul Moat (sp?) for example. There are not that many but it's just what I'm trying to say, you could say "gun crime is much worse in the US than the UK" and you'd be right, I'm just more interested in WHY and I don't think a blanket statement like "it's because they can get guns easier" cuts the mustard. Please excuse my rambling (a lot of rambling) but essentially, this is the crux of what I'm saying. It may be simplistic to say that the ease of buying guns is the only factor. But it is in all probability the major one. None of the alternatives you've given are particularly convincing and it does seem like you simply don't want to believe that widespread gun ownership is leading to tragic and needless deaths. Out of interest, are you a gun owner yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 It may be simplistic to say that the ease of buying guns is the only factor. But it is in all probability the major one. None of the alternatives you've given are particularly convincing and it does seem like you simply don't want to believe that widespread gun ownership is leading to tragic and needless deaths. Out of interest, are you a gun owner yourself? No, I've done the tourist thing, shot a gun in Vegas, been to some random bars in North Dakota with signs saying "we don't call the police". I don't know, I just know that historically, they were very well known for their gun ownership; it was commented upon in lots of 18th century journals; it's the way they lived with that "frontier" mindset of which guns go hand in hand and you just have to take into account the gun culture brought about by the African-American culture for whom, although times have changed, largely the status quo hasn't so you get a lot of resentment in society (I mean, look at South Africa during and after aparthied....a serious number of shootings occuring). So you understand why I mentioned slavery. I see all these added variables and my mind just says "ok, ease of gun-ownership is a factor but there MUST be many many more". There you go, in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The problem with America is it's full of Republicans. Corrected it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 No, I've done the tourist thing, shot a gun in Vegas, been to some random bars in North Dakota with signs saying "we don't call the police". I don't know, I just know that historically, they were very well known for their gun ownership; it was commented upon in lots of 18th century journals; it's the way they lived with that "frontier" mindset of which guns go hand in hand and you just have to take into account the gun culture brought about by the African-American culture for whom, although times have changed, largely the status quo hasn't so you get a lot of resentment in society (I mean, look at South Africa during and after aparthied....a serious number of shootings occuring). So you understand why I mentioned slavery. I see all these added variables and my mind just says "ok, ease of gun-ownership is a factor but there MUST be many many more". There you go, in a nutshell. I think everyone on this thread us aware of the culture of guns/gun ownership/right to bear arms etc in the US. It's not really an additional or different factor, it's just a key driver of widespread gun ownership, which is, by far, the main contributory factor of widespread gun deaths. And interesting that the original case at the start of the thread you glibly dismiss as "well, that kind of thing happens in the UK too" but at the same time want to claim "racial tension" as a unique and exclusive factor to the States that other nations don't have. Anyway, you seem to have toned down your position from earlier in the thread so probably worth calling it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The mother killed by the 2 yo was a nuclear scientist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint si Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The statistical arguement. Well, again, that takes into NO account whatsoever other variables that we do not have here (a huge history of slavery for example), ethnic tensions, the gap between rich and poor....these statistics take none of that into account. OK well given how completely irrelevant statistics are then, it's pretty strange that your very first contribution to the thread began with: "I think you'll find if you look at it statistically..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The mother killed by the 2 yo was a nuclear scientist Because intelligence = common sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 (edited) that takes into NO account whatsoever other variables that we do not have here (a huge history of slavery for example), ethnic tensions, the gap between rich and poor....these statistics take none of that into account. All very good reasons to have tighter than normal gun control. We all know the historical reasons why America has their gun problem and there is never going to be an easy solution. But when you try and make out the gun control laws don't contribute to the amount of deaths and there is no point trying to change it you sound as dumb as the average Yank. Edited 2 January, 2015 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 Because intelligence = common sense No clearly not but generally would have expected more sense than let a toddler go near a loaded gun and be smart enough to assess potential dangers and take precautions. Assume she would have been subject to rigorous health and safety regulations at work which would focus on needing to see risks everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 All very good reasons to have tighter than normal gun control. We all know the historical reasons why America has their gun problem and there is never going to be an easy solution. But when you try and make out the gun control laws don't contribute to the amount of deaths and there is no point trying to change it you sound as dumb as the average Yank. I never once said they didn't contribute. I said there were clearly other factors and that that argument was way too one dimensional and that we should look deeper into it. Also, you can use statistics to claim anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The gun is question must have been cocked as I struggle to believe a 2yo could produce enough finger pressure to fire a handgun that wasn't cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 (edited) ... Edited 2 January, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The gun is question must have been cocked as I struggle to believe a 2yo could produce enough finger pressure to fire a handgun that wasn't cocked. I have a 2 year old and I'm sure they could, especially with modern guns. Watched that Jim Jefferies things a couple of times now and its brilliant - a brave subject to do in front of an american audience but the points he raises and the way he does it is inspired In Australia after the port Arthur massacre the government said 'no more guns' and we thought ' well that seems fair enough' In the Us after Sandy Hook , your government said 'Maybe we ought to think about getting rid of some of the big guns ' and you said 'F*ck you I like guns' His phrase - In order for society to keep moving it has to walk as slow as it slowest member is absolutely spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 The mother killed by the 2 yo was a nuclear scientist Could have been a lot worse then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 I have a 2 year old and I'm sure they could, especially with modern guns. Watched that Jim Jefferies things a couple of times now and its brilliant - a brave subject to do in front of an american audience but the points he raises and the way he does it is inspired In Australia after the port Arthur massacre the government said 'no more guns' and we thought ' well that seems fair enough' In the Us after Sandy Hook , your government said 'Maybe we ought to think about getting rid of some of the big guns ' and you said 'F*ck you I like guns' His phrase - In order for society to keep moving it has to walk as slow as it slowest member is absolutely spot on Stupid people can vote too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 Stupid people can vote too yes, and I have some feelings about that that I'm not all that comfortable about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 Could have been a lot worse then ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 ... indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted 2 January, 2015 Share Posted 2 January, 2015 Could have been a lot worse then What's that meant to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 The mother killed by the 2 yo was a nuclear scientist WTF has that got to do with it............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 I never once said they didn't contribute. I said there were clearly other factors and that that argument was way too one dimensional and that we should look deeper into it. Also, you can use statistics to claim anything. Hey just let them carry on living in the **** hole that is the UK ..........makes them feel good about themselves LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 (edited) I never once said they didn't contribute. I said there were clearly other factors and that that argument was way too one dimensional and that we should look deeper into it. Also, you can use statistics to claim anything. The main factor being Yanks loving shooting their guns so much they don't give a f*ck about the odd school massacre ( until it's one of their own offspring who has their brains blown out by a deranged teenager sporting a weapon designed for military combat). Edited 3 January, 2015 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 WTF has that got to do with it............ You tell me. Thanks for your contribution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 I go to America about once per year on average. In general, I'm a fan. I love the people over there, and am always infected by their optimism, intelligence and cynicism in relatively equal measure. If I had to give an answer to the OP, I'd say it's a lack of unity leading to a great deal of distrust. It has arguably been like that from the start. Jumping on the right to bear arms for a bit. What conceivable reason would you need to bear arms? The constitutional amendment is framed so that it protects Americans' rights to rise up against a tyrannical government. I don't really buy that as a modern day justification. Opposition toward the government is too fractured to ever get itself into a position where it forms a legitimate, organised militia aimed at overthrowing the establishment. If peaceful movements like Occupy are suppressed, harassed and moved on, I really don't fancy the chances of anyone who wants to go toe to toe with the US Government, especially since Homeland Security was setup. I think we can safely say that gun ownership isn't about the eternal vigilance of citizens, ever ready to overthrow that pesky government if things get out of hand. It's more about a basic distrust of your fellow man or perhaps more accurately, a reflection of what you think you'll need if your fellow man decides not to be so friendly. Former boss of mine had a basement full of weapons. Taught his son to shoot before the lad hit his teens, along with the principles of responsible weapon ownership. Setting my stall out, I'm not a fan of the proliferation of firearms at all. I've been on enough dodgy nights out to know that if guns were as accessible in this country as they are in the US, the headlines would be more about the strain that Friday nights out were placing on morgues than A&E. It's the sort of thing that turns a fisticuffs incident into a murder, and a curious toddler into an unwitting committer of matricide. The famous line that the gun nuts trot out whenever guns are involved in a tragedy is "Guns don't kill people. People do.". That statement sits on very shaky ground in light of this incident. I agree with much of this, Pap. I always found the American mindset of clinging blindly to a constitution written over 200 years ago on the back of a war utterly bizarre. The world is an entirely different place. It leads to bizarre arguments that have no relevance today. For example, the First Amendment (Free Speech) is now used as a defence for Child Pornography, Racism, Sexism and many other straight up and hateful things. Never mind the First Amendment was designed as a tool to allow people to speak out against a tyrannical regime (as Pap outlines above), and has never meant you can say or do what you want without consequence. The Second Amendment stuff I agree with Pap, so don't have a great deal to add. Other than it's worth mentioning the power of the NRA (National Rifle Association) in the States. It is a huge industry, that has to self sustain. Heck, this is a nation that gives serious credence to the argument "To stop shootings in schools, we need more guns in schools" after yet another school shooting. Oh, but they will willingly forget all about the Eighth Amendment: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Now, I've been making this argument about Lethal Injection for years. It seems to me, that strapping someone to a chair (in plenty of cases adults with the mental age/IQ of a child) and then injecting them with a solution that paralyses then systemically shuts down every organ in the body qualifies as cruel and unusual - nevermind the revelations of recent use of and methods of torture. 'Murrica is scary yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 Hey just let them carry on living in the **** hole that is the UK ..........makes them feel good about themselves LOL I've lived in North America and will leave the UK again once the kids have finished their education but you throwing a hissy fit because some of us dare to criticise the USA's insane love of 9mm hand guns and assault rifles just makes you look a bit precious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 I've lived in North America and will leave the UK again once the kids have finished their education but you throwing a hissy fit because some of us dare to criticise the USA's insane love of 9mm hand guns and assault rifles just makes you look a bit precious. That's the problem isn't it? how do the anti-gun minority overcome the pro-gun lobby?....with their money, power, influence....and Charlton Heston? It's kinda the point I was making too.....more variables. (Plus, I assumed when you knew citizens of the united states, you stopped making vapid generalisations like "those yanks") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 I've lived in North America and will leave the UK again once the kids have finished their education but you throwing a hissy fit because some of us dare to criticise the USA's insane love of 9mm hand guns and assault rifles just makes you look a bit precious. Not being precious LOL ......but I have lived here for 40 years and there is no insane love for firearms.....just that you have the right to protect yourself......wouldn't you like that on any night in the UK?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 That's the problem isn't it? how do the anti-gun minority overcome the pro-gun lobby?....with their money, power, influence....and Charlton Heston? It's kinda the point I was making too.....more variables. (Plus, I assumed when you knew citizens of the united states, you stopped making vapid generalisations like "those yanks") Care to point out anywhere I have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 Not being precious LOL ......but I have lived here for 40 years and there is no insane love for firearms.....just that you have the right to protect yourself......wouldn't you like that on any night in the UK?? No. I've never once felt that I've needed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 No. I've never once felt that I've needed it. If its so wonderful why you gonna leave ??? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 Care to point out anywhere I have? Not him the resident mr wonderful .....aint it LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 If its so wonderful why you gonna leave ??? LOL Because my wife would like to us to spend our later lives in the sunshine of Italy or Southern France. England is a lovely country but the weather sucks. You're slightly deluded if you think we here in the UK need 9mm to keep ourselves safe at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 Not him the resident mr wonderful .....aint it LOL Is English your first language? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 Because my wife would like to us to spend our later lives in the sunshine of Italy or Southern France. England is a lovely country but the weather sucks. You're slightly deluded if you think we here in the UK need 9mm to keep ourselves safe at night. OK we agree to disagree........but admit that southern france or Italy is safer than the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 (edited) Is English your first language? YEAH I'm in North America Sorry mis-quote LOL Edited 3 January, 2015 by SarniaSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 January, 2015 Share Posted 3 January, 2015 OK we agree to disagree........but admit that southern france or Italy is safer than the UK It's no better or worse than the UK. Why on earth you'd think otherwise is beyond me. England is perfectly safe outside areas of the major cities but every city in the world has places that you know you wouldn't want to find yourself in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 4 January, 2015 Share Posted 4 January, 2015 It's no better or worse than the UK. Why on earth you'd think otherwise is beyond me. England is perfectly safe outside areas of the major cities but every city in the world has places that you know you wouldn't want to find yourself in. Yeah know that it's just the generalization by you Brits that ****es me off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 4 January, 2015 Share Posted 4 January, 2015 Care to point out anywhere I have? There were a great many of those generalisations running around this thread (ok, it appears from both sides of the pond). Maybe not from you but the title of the thread itself is a generalisation (I mean, for example, ask any Canadian if they're north American). I mean, I like Americans, I've stayed for months on ends with some lovely ones where they live and to me...well, Sarnia saint there kinda summed it up in that thread comes off as a bunch of ignorant Brits belittling citizens of the US....which we are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 4 January, 2015 Share Posted 4 January, 2015 I'm happy to accept that what we might describe as a 'liberal' attitude towards gun control is just one of many complex issues that lay behind the USA's homicide rate. I'm happy to accept that there are many nations that have a significantly higher murder rate that the US - although these tend to be poor African and Caribbean states in the main. I agree wholeheartedly that those on here who resort to infantile 'thick yank' type comments are themselves more than a little dense. But is there a direct causal link between US gun control legislation and their homicide rate? Methinks the only possible answer to that question would be 'yes'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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