Tadic/Attacking Depth

[Mattio]

I wonder if we have a recall option on Ramerez at Hull surely he can't be worse than Mayuka on the bench unless we make some signings this January

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[david in sweden]

We really need to look at JWP as Scheiderlin's (eventual) long-term replacement.

Although he doesn't have MS' physical size, or experience of 200+ games....JWP is surely seen as an integral part of our future midfield,(and noticed by Roy H)-I can't see a fit JWP " sitting on the bench ".

 

As far as the stats. go ..JWP had game time in 5 matches (4 starts, 1 sub,) before being injured.

 

"our purple patch" (8 wins in 9 games in a 4-3-3 formation) had a midfield that was a variation of ; Steve Davis, Schneiderlin and Wanyama / Cork in a 4-3-3 formation.

Since Schneiderlin's injury we've been forced to change formation, and had injuries in almost every game. S.Davis v.Leicester, Schneiderlin v. Man City, Cork v. Arsenal ...and now Hesketh v. Burnley.

 

One stat. is that Mané has FINISHED just one game from only 9 starts. I agree with most of you on here that his performances have been less than you'd expect from a £12 million signing, but in his defence (if he needed any)....he came late - (didn't start until game 6 in the Prem. programme) and is (I think) the only Saint to have played in all of his country's internationals in the two breaks.

It also means that he's missed training sessions, and every time he plays there is a different line-up and recently new formation.

 

This is not meant to be an excuse for his poor showing in many games, but a possible explanation that must be considered a factor for sub-standard performances.

He isn't be the first foreign player to fall foul of the Prem. quality offside traps, or its pace....but I'm sure Pellé must have missed far more chances than Mané has.

 

Finally I agree with (many of you) above, in that Tadic was far better on the left (in early games), and less effective in midfield /on the right, but most importantly has been quickly "found out" by opposition sides and (like Pelle), comes in for extra attention from defenders thus reducing his effectivity in building attacks.

Edited 15 December, 2014 by david in sweden

[S-Clarke]

I wonder if we have a recall option on Ramerez at Hull surely he can't be worse than Mayuka on the bench unless we make some signings this January

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

He's having exactly the same lack of impact at Hull as he had here, he is not a PL player. He's as much of a waste on the bench as a Mayuka type. Rather than recalling him and hoping every week he can 'live up to his potential' and 'play that killer pass we know he can, but have never seen him do'', let's just stick a kid on the bench.

[Whitey Grandad]

He's having exactly the same lack of impact at Hull as he had here, he is not a PL player. He's as much of a waste on the bench as a Mayuka type. Rather than recalling him and hoping every week he can 'live up to his potential' and 'play that killer pass we know he can, but have never seen him do'', let's just stick a kid on the bench.

 

At least Ramirez is a goal threat.

[The9]

He's having exactly the same lack of impact at Hull as he had here, he is not a PL player. He's as much of a waste on the bench as a Mayuka type. Rather than recalling him and hoping every week he can 'live up to his potential' and 'play that killer pass we know he can, but have never seen him do'', let's just stick a kid on the bench.

 

He started looking better for Saints with a run of games, he hasn't really had that anywhere, and when he does, he gets sent off or injured. He'd be ideal sitting in the hole at the moment with some defensive midfielders behind him, just being able to create for a striker who actually might get onto his through balls.

 

I've been saying that for 2 years now...

[VectisSaint]

I suppose he gives defenders an outlet ball by making himself available.

Exactly, and also ensures that the situations do not arise in the first place. He may not have prevented Fonte's appalling back pass against Man U, granted, but in the end that mistake did not cost us the game. It is a fact that we make fewer defensive errors when Morgan is playing, his play also gives his fellow defensive players confidence.

[Saint Rees]

Pre season I thought Gaston would be a fairly important player for us and was shocked when he got loaned out as Koeman said we didn't have the depth. Like others have said, thought he might have done alright in our system, although he is very injury prone and frustrating at times

[The9]

when we didnt beat villa, it was davis who was the be all and end all

we still lost when he came back in

 

morgan wont stop pelle from missing 5 chances a game

or stop Long from being crap in front of goal

or mane from....doing what ever the hell he is doing

 

We lost to Man City, which was to be expected. Since then Davis has been playing out of position as a defensive midfielder, it's difficult to claim that having Schneiderlin back wouldn't make a huge difference because it would allow Davis to sit further forward and pull the strings.

 

That's the thing with having a poky squad, your options get limited by your players being marginalised by playing out of position and it impacts the whole team not just the position they usually play. Alderweireld coming back rather too rapidly for my liking from a hamstring tweak was probably responsible for his (IMO) by far worst performance of the season on Saturday too.

[The9]

You can't claim Morgan's absence was responsible for Toby getting injured, Fonte's back pass, Forster not coming for that free kick or Tadic's penalty being saved? Those are the moments which decided our fate, not a lack of creativity in midfield.

 

Why do players suddenly become awesome when they are injured? Morgan played 90 minutes at home to West Brom and we were dreadful. He also played in tonnes of crap Saints performances last year. How was that defeat at Norwich any different to yesterday.

 

You can easily make a case that if Schneiderlin was in the team, centre back Alderweireld wouldn't be looking to shoot on the edge of the opposing box and pull up injured; you could say that Schneiderlin being available for a pass (or calling to warn Fonte) could have stopped that backpass, you could say that with Schneiderlin in midfield we're in possession more often and don't even concede the free kick which Rooney takes, or that he tracks van Persie. And you can even have him take the penalty instead of Tadic, or whisper that the keeper always dives to his left, or whatever. They're all pretty spurious, but that's the nature of speculation - as said above, no-one can say those things wouldn't have happened.

 

What can't be argued with is that Schneiderlin has been excellent this season, and missing him from a decimated midfield has certainly had an impact. The lack of creativity in the last couple of matches specifically stems from Davis being asked to play Schneiderlin's position and thereby being 20 yards further away from our attacks.

[verlaine1979]

For an attacking string-puller, Davis has 1 assist and no goals this season, from 1151 minutes on the pitch. Even is we leave aside the last four matches in which he's played out of position, in his 11 league matches before that we scored a total of 23 goals, to which he made one direct contribution.

[Window Cleaner]

For an attacking string-puller, Davis has 1 assist and no goals this season, from 1151 minutes on the pitch. Even is we leave aside the last four matches in which he's played out of position, in his 11 league matches before that we scored a total of 23 goals, to which he made one direct contribution.

 

although he's had some good shots on goal as well, unfortunately not quite good enough.

[VectisSaint]

For an attacking string-puller, Davis has 1 assist and no goals this season, from 1151 minutes on the pitch. Even is we leave aside the last four matches in which he's played out of position, in his 11 league matches before that we scored a total of 23 goals, to which he made one direct contribution.

Danger of paying too much attention to stats. He was instrumental in Pelle's goal against Man U, but doesn't get a credit because there were 2 subsequent touches. Of course he could score more goals, but it is naive to judge based solely on these, his drive, vision and attacking mentality when he plays clearly makes us tick, which is why we should try to avoid playing him in DM, even though he can play that role if needed.

[SFCRedandWhite]

Davis is the sort of player you wouldn't notice unless you went to the game and appreciated what he does for the team

[VectisSaint]

Pre season I thought Gaston would be a fairly important player for us and was shocked when he got loaned out as Koeman said we didn't have the depth. Like others have said, thought he might have done alright in our system, although he is very injury prone and frustrating at times

Agreed, would still like to have him in our squad right now than playing occasionally for Hull. It was a loan that really did not make any sense with our pathetically thin squad. But I guess Ron doesn't rate him.

[Verbal Kint]

Agreed, would still like to have him in our squad right now than playing occasionally for Hull. It was a loan that really did not make any sense with our pathetically thin squad. But I guess Ron doesn't rate him.

 

A decent loan fee and his (roughly 60k a week) wages being paid by someone else when he would only be a squad player here. Makes sense to me. His wages are enormous and if he isn't playing every week here then he is a luxury we can't really afford

[verlaine1979]

Danger of paying too much attention to stats. He was instrumental in Pelle's goal against Man U, but doesn't get a credit because there were 2 subsequent touches. Of course he could score more goals, but it is naive to judge based solely on these, his drive, vision and attacking mentality when he plays clearly makes us tick, which is why we should try to avoid playing him in DM, even though he can play that role if needed.

 

Yes, that was an important run, but something of a rarity for him (he makes only 0.3 dribbles per game according to Whoscored.com). I'm not disputing that Davis is a tidy player, highly proficient at not giving the ball away. My point is simply that he's not a very productive AM, which is born out by the assist and goal stats mentioned earlier, but also by the fact that he's average at best in terms of key passes (1.5 per game), shots per game (0.9), through-balls (0.1 per game - admittedly something we're not really set up to play) and more or less any other attacking metric you care to mention. Don't get me wrong, I know that unless JWP steps up, we really don't have anyone better in the squad at the moment anyway - but if we really do have intentions of competing for Europe, we''ll need a higher quality AM than Davis.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

A decent loan fee and his (roughly 60k a week) wages being paid by someone else when he would only be a squad player here. Makes sense to me. His wages are enormous and if he isn't playing every week here then he is a luxury we can't really afford

 

But he was one we could afford last season, and we had a net gain of £30m+ from summer activity. So I don't think any sort of financial constraint meant he had to go unless it can be proved otherwise.

 

The deal in isolation seemed good though, so I am not saying he shouldn't have left, but what doesn't make sense to me is that at the start of the season Koeman wanted all creativity to come from out wide and now when we have a few injuries he selects Jake Hesketh (who is not ready) ahead of other better players because he wants an offensive central midfielder, when all along Ramirez would be perfect for that. Even then, why not play Reed alongside Wanyama at Burnley will Davis further forward stitching together play? It's confusing and I don't see the logic behind it personally.

[Window Cleaner]

But he was one we could afford last season, and we had a net gain of £30m+ from summer activity. So I don't think any sort of financial constraint meant he had to go unless it can be proved otherwise.

 

The deal in isolation seemed good though, so I am not saying he shouldn't have left, but what doesn't make sense to me is that at the start of the season Koeman wanted all creativity to come from out wide and now when we have a few injuries he selects Jake Hesketh (who is not ready) ahead of other better players because he wants an offensive central midfielder, when all along Ramirez would be perfect for that. Even then, why not play Reed alongside Wanyama at Burnley will Davis further forward stitching together play? It's confusing and I don't see the logic behind it personally.

 

Koeman's apparent disdain for Reed is incomprehensible, why cart him around to nigh on every game and then give him no chance whatsoever, Hesketh ? Looks like someone has said to Koeman, you've got to play an academy product and he's stuck a pin in a list.

 

So then Ronald why has the lad only had 1 minute in the 16 PL games so far this season with Morgan,Jack,Steve and JWP all out on occasions out and Victor on a shedload of bookings ? Needs an explantion really and I'd hope it's not something as petty as him being desperate to sign Clasie..

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/25072014-harrison-reed-new-contract-1782549.aspx

Edited 15 December, 2014 by Window Cleaner
ally

[Saint Pete]

Koeman's apparent disdain for Reed is incomprehensible, why cart him around to nigh on every game and then give him no chance whatsoever, Hesketh ? Looks like someone has said to Koeman, you've got to play an academy product and he's stuck a pin in a list.

 

So then Ronald why has the lad only had 1 minute in the 16 PL games so far this season with Morgan,Jack,Steve and JWP all out on occasions out and Victor on a shedload of bookings ? Needs an explantion really and I'd hope it's not something as petty as him being desperate to sign Clasie..

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/25072014-harrison-reed-new-contract-1782549.aspx

 

I agree. Very mysterious that Reed is picked on the bench every week but consistently overlooked when there have been so many players in his position unavailable.

[Redslo]

But he was one we could afford last season' date=' and we had a net gain of £30m+ from summer activity. So I don't think any sort of financial constraint meant he had to go unless it can be proved otherwise.[/quote']

 

Financial Fair Play is calculated over a rolling three year period. Money saved this year is money that can be spent next year. At his salary that is more than three million pounds. Also, cash flow can matter too if team is supposed to be operating on a sustainable basis.

[Dig Dig]

I agree. Very mysterious that Reed is picked on the bench every week but consistently overlooked when there have been so many players in his position unavailable.

 

CM is the hardest position to come into at this level. Koeman obviously doesn't think he's ready yet which is fine by me.

[Smirking_Saint]

CM is the hardest position to come into at this level. Koeman obviously doesn't think he's ready yet which is fine by me.

 

This really, and lets be honest, we have played Utd, Arsenal and City, hardly teams Id expect him to be chucked in against

[Saint Pete]

This really, and lets be honest, we have played Utd, Arsenal and City, hardly teams Id expect him to be chucked in against

 

What about Burnley then?

[Dig Dig]

What about Burnley then?

 

Did we need him at Burnley?

[eelpie]

Tadic doesn't need a rest, he needs to get fit. There's no excuse for a premiership footballer to be knackered from 18 games in 4 months. That's if fitness is the issue.

 

When did he join the squad in the summer? Wasn't it late on? He didn't have enough chance to pre train for the rigours of English football, surely. Same goes for Pelle.

[Jez]

Did we need him at Burnley?

 

We played Hesketh instead... and we lost. Hesketh got injured and he still didn't come on. Regardless of whether we needed him or not, could we have done any worse with him playing?

[sotonist]

When did he join the squad in the summer? Wasn't it late on? He didn't have enough chance to pre train for the rigours of English football, surely. Same goes for Pelle.

 

then he had that thigh injury and those international matches for uraguay.

 

 

hang on, who were we talking about?

[VectisSaint]

Yes, that was an important run, but something of a rarity for him (he makes only 0.3 dribbles per game according to Whoscored.com). I'm not disputing that Davis is a tidy player, highly proficient at not giving the ball away. My point is simply that he's not a very productive AM, which is born out by the assist and goal stats mentioned earlier, but also by the fact that he's average at best in terms of key passes (1.5 per game), shots per game (0.9), through-balls (0.1 per game - admittedly something we're not really set up to play) and more or less any other attacking metric you care to mention. Don't get me wrong, I know that unless JWP steps up, we really don't have anyone better in the squad at the moment anyway - but if we really do have intentions of competing for Europe, we''ll need a higher quality AM than Davis.

I think you read too many stats, try watching the man play instead. If the stats say that he only makes 0.3 dribbles per game or 0.1 through balls per game, then quite frankly the stats are a complete load of ********. That would mean he only played 1 through ball so far this season, which is patently nonsense.

[Dig Dig]

We played Hesketh instead... and we lost. Hesketh got injured and he still didn't come on. Regardless of whether we needed him or not, could we have done any worse with him playing?

 

They play in completrly different positions

[verlaine1979]

I think you read too many stats, try watching the man play instead. If the stats say that he only makes 0.3 dribbles per game or 0.1 through balls per game, then quite frankly the stats are a complete load of ********. That would mean he only played 1 through ball so far this season, which is patently nonsense.

 

I base my belief that he isn't good enough on watching him play. The stats simply add a little empiricism to the debate. The through ball figure may be contentious, but the dribble number seems right to me - Davis doesn't run with the ball, he receives it and moves it on, usually in ways that preserve possession without doing much to develop a threat.

[VectisSaint]

I base my belief that he isn't good enough on watching him play. The stats simply add a little empiricism to the debate. The through ball figure may be contentious, but the dribble number seems right to me - Davis doesn't run with the ball, he receives it and moves it on, usually in ways that preserve possession without doing much to develop a threat.

Well we certainly don't create much in the way of a threat when he doesn't play in AM role that's for sure. I'm sorry but I think these stats are just complete garbage, and if you don't see what Davis brings to the team well, you're entitled to your opinion, but there are many others in the team who bring far less to it than Davis. How anyone who actually watches can say that Davis doesn't run with the ball is just beyond belief. Maybe his runs don't count as "dribbles" because they are in space and he doesn't actually beat anyone, I don't know, but that's good, his passes take players out of the game and create chances. Football is about opinions, they say, and your opinion and mine are completely at odds, but I'd rather have Davis in the team than not, and I think he has been one of the most improved players under Ronald, with the exception of his goal-scoring which this season has been pants.

[The9]

I base my belief that he isn't good enough on watching him play. The stats simply add a little empiricism to the debate. The through ball figure may be contentious, but the dribble number seems right to me - Davis doesn't run with the ball, he receives it and moves it on, usually in ways that preserve possession without doing much to develop a threat.

 

He moves the ball on quickly precisely in a way to develop attacks that slower or less aware players aren't able to do, which allows us to exploit un-set defences and score goals from the next couple of passes. Lallana did something similar last season, lots of important possession stuff high up the pitch, not that many direct assists or goals, but we had someone who could hold the ball in difficult positions and enable others to get involved in support. Davis' role is to shift the ball from non-threatening positions into threatening ones, but notsomuch by providing a killer forward pass. I'm thinking of stuff like picking out Bernard's overlapping run or quickly spotting someone in space who can deliver a through ball.

 

A decent stat would be to compare how many goals we've scored where Davis is and isn't involved in the 5 passes before the goal.

[verlaine1979]

He moves the ball on quickly precisely in a way to develop attacks that slower or less aware players aren't able to do, which allows us to exploit un-set defences and score goals from the next couple of passes. Lallana did something similar last season, lots of important possession stuff high up the pitch, not that many direct assists or goals, but we had someone who could hold the ball in difficult positions and enable others to get involved in support. Davis' role is to shift the ball from non-threatening positions into threatening ones, but notsomuch by providing a killer forward pass. I'm thinking of stuff like picking out Bernard's overlapping run or quickly spotting someone in space who can deliver a through ball.

 

A decent stat would be to compare how many goals we've scored where Davis is and isn't involved in the 5 passes before the goal.

 

I understand that this is the *idea* of what Davis or any other attacking midfielder brings to the team. What I'm disputing is whether he actually has this effect, or if in practice he's overly-conservative, and instead of playing low percentage balls or making runs that create overloads/take opposing players out of the game, he more often than not pops the ball back to the CBs or floats a slow (but exceedingly accurate) pass out into space on the wings, leaving Bertrand or Clyne to do the hard work of actually beating someone and turning dry possession into attack.

 

I think I said already earlier in the thread that I know we don't have better than Davis currently, unless JWP develops further - my point is only that if we are to progress beyond mid-table, we need better than mid-table talent, and Davis, for all his many virtues of hard work and Scrooge-like ball retention, is the absolute definition of mid-table.