General Election 2015

[buctootim]

Please read my post again and tell me where I had suggested that all those 10 million are not registered to vote. I would suggest that the majority of Brand's followers fall into that most apathetic group aged between 18-24 and here is their guru telling them not to bother to vote. Then the geeky Milliband tells them that they ought to vote Labour. I wonder who will engage them more.

 

There is the possibility that in a few key marginals it might make a difference, or it could be that some voters in key marginals will be pursuaded to vote the other way because Labour believes that cosying up to a prat like Brand puts them off. Who knows?

 

I doubt that Brand is the main influence in anyones life. Hes just one of many voices. Of course a proportion of those thinking about not bothering to vote are persuadable.

[trousers]

Are you really claiming that all those 10 million people thinking about not voting are not registered anyway?

 

As an aside, I 'follow' Brand on twitter and I'll be voting. I follow many people / organisations that I don't necessarily agree with

 

I wonder how many of his 10 million followers are actually doing so out of curiosity rather than being aligned with his point of view?

Edited 29 April, 2015 by trousers

[buctootim]

I follow many people / organisations that I don't necessarily agree with

 

I wonder how many of his 10 million followers are actually doing so out of curiosity rather than being aligned with his point of view?

 

Good man! Ive never understood why people only want to read whatever reinforces their current views. Its good to challenge why you believe what you do. For sure those 10m followers are a disparate bunch. Twitter is an odd medium - Ive got 56 followers and have never ever tweeted.

Edited 29 April, 2015 by buctootim

[Jonnyboy]

I find that hard to believe, very hard. If true then that is very disturbing. They can't all be in the UK, surely?

 

To be fair about 5 million are probably American women in their 30s who fancy him after his brief movie career over there.

[trousers]

[whelk]

As an aside, I 'follow' Brand on twitter and I'll be voting. I follow many people / organisations that I don't necessarily agree with

 

I wonder how many of his 10 million followers are actually doing so out of curiosity rather than being aligned with his point of view?

 

Youu do understand that Twitter is global and Brand has a Hollywood career. Fair chunk will be US Katy Perry fans.

[whelk]

Liked Robert Webb's respond to Brand

 

Hi. We’ve met about twice, so I should probably reintroduce myself: I’m the other one from Peep Show. I read your thing on revolution in these pages with great interest and some concern. My first reaction was to rejoin the Labour Party. The Jiffy bag containing the plastic membership card and the Tristram Hunt action figure is, I am assured, in the post. I just wanted to tell you why I did that because I thought you might want to hear from someone who a) really likes your work, b) takes you seriously as a thoughtful person and c) thinks you’re wilfully talking through your arse about something very important.

 

It’s about influence and engagement. You have a theoretical 7.1 million (mostly young) followers on Twitter. They will have their own opinions about everything and I have no intention of patronising them. But what I will say is that when I was 15, if Stephen Fry had advised me to trim my eyebrows with a Flymo, I would have given it serious consideration. I don’t think it’s your job to tell young people that they should engage with the political process. But I do think that when you end a piece about politics with the injunction “I will never vote and I don’t think you should either”, then you’re actively telling a lot of people that engagement with our democracy is a bad idea. That just gives politicians the green light to neglect the concerns of young people because they’ve been relieved of the responsibility of courting their vote.

 

Why do pensioners (many of whom are not poor old grannies huddled round a kerosene lamp for warmth but bloated ex-hippie baby boomers who did very well out of the Thatcher/Lawson years) get so much attention from politicians? Because they vote.

 

 

 

 

 

Many of the young, the poor, the people you write about are in desperate need of support. The last Labour government didn’t do enough and bitterly disappointed many voters. But, at the risk of losing your attention, on the whole they helped. Opening Sure Start centres, introducing and raising the minimum wage, making museums free, guaranteeing nursery places, blah blah blah: nobody is going to write a folk song about this stuff and I’m aware of the basic absurdity of what I’m trying to achieve here, like getting Liberace to give a **** about the Working Tax Credit, but these policies among many others changed the real lives of millions of real people for the better.

 

This is exactly what the present coalition is in the business of tearing to pieces. They are not interested in helping unlucky people – they want to scapegoat and punish them. You specifically object to George Osborne’s challenge to the EU’s proposed cap on bankers’ bonuses. Labour simply wouldn’t be doing that right now. They are not all the same. “They’re all the same” is what reactionaries love to hear. It leaves the status quo serenely untroubled, it cedes the floor to the easy answers of Ukip and the Daily Mail. No, if you want to be a nuisance to the people whom you most detest in public life, vote. And vote Labour.

 

You talk of “obediently X-ing a little box”. Is that really how it feels to you? Obedience? There’s a lot that people interested in shaping their society can do in between elections – you describe yourself as an activist, among other things – but election day is when we really are the masters. We give them another chance or we tell them to get another job. If I thought I worked for David Cameron rather than the other way round, I don’t know how I’d get out of bed in the morning.

 

Maybe it’s this timidity in you that leads you into another mistake: the idea that revolution is un-British. Actually, in the modern era, the English invented it, when we publicly decapitated Charles I in 1649. We got our revolution out of the way long before the French and the Americans. The monarchy was restored but the sovereignty of our parliament, made up of and elected by a slowly widening constituency of the people, has never been seriously challenged since then. Aha! Until now, you say! By those pesky, corporate, global, military-industrial conglomerate bastards! Well, yes. So national parliaments and supernational organisations such as the EU need more legitimacy. That’s more votes, not fewer.

 

You’re a wonderful talker but on the page you sometimes let your style get ahead of what you actually think. In putting the words “aesthetically” and “disruption” in the same sentence, you come perilously close to saying that violence can be beautiful. Do keep an eye on that. Ambiguity around ambiguity is forgivable in an unpublished poet and expected of an arts student on the pull: for a professional comedian demoting himself to the role of “thinker”, with stadiums full of young people hanging on his every word, it won’t really do.

 

What were the chances, in the course of human history, that you and I should be born into an advanced liberal democracy? That we don’t die aged 27 because we can’t eat because nobody has invented fluoride toothpaste? That we can say what we like, read what we like, love whom we want; that nobody is going to kick the door down in the middle of the night and take us or our children away to be tortured? The odds were vanishingly small. Do I wake up every day and thank God that I live in 21st-century Britain? Of course not. But from time to time I recognise it as an unfathomable privilege. On Remembrance Sunday, for a start. And again when I read an intelligent fellow citizen ready to toss away the hard-won liberties of his brothers and sisters because he’s bored.

 

I understand your ache for the luminous, for a connection beyond yourself. Russell, we all feel like that. Some find it in music or literature, some in the wonders of science and others in religion. But it isn’t available any more in revolution. We tried that again and again, and we know that it ends in death camps, gulags, repression and murder. In brief, and I say this with the greatest respect, please read some ****ing Orwell.

 

Good luck finding whatever it is you’re looking for and while you do, may your God go with you.

 

Rob

[buctootim]

Liked Robert Webb's respond to Brand

 

This is the best part imo.

 

"I understand your ache for the luminous, for a connection beyond yourself. Russell, we all feel like that. Some find it in music or literature, some in the wonders of science and others in religion. But it isn’t available any more in revolution. We tried that again and again, and we know that it ends in death camps, gulags, repression and murder".

[shurlock]

This is the best part imo.

 

"I understand your ache for the luminous, for a connection beyond yourself. Russell, we all feel like that. Some find it in music or literature, some in the wonders of science and others in religion. But it isn’t available any more in revolution. We tried that again and again, and we know that it ends in death camps, gulags, repression and murder".

 

Only a throwaway reference to 'chasing the dragon' would have been marginally more patronising.

Edited 29 April, 2015 by shurlock

[buctootim]

Only a throwaway reference to 'chasing the dragon' would have been marginally less patronising.

 

Nothing wrong with patronising Brand. He doles it out frequently enough.

[SuperMikey]

Think Miliband came out of that interview pretty well - it's clear that there were holes in what Brand was talking about but he captured the feeling of a lot of young people like myself in terms of thinking that your vote won't really count, that there won't be systematic change in favour of the people as opposed to the powerful and that some things are beyond the grasp of politicians to address. Miliband added a dose of realism to everything which I found pretty refreshing tbh.

 

Have to say, i'm not going to vote Labour but I am coming round more to the idea of them being in the driving seat after the election - especially if they're backed by either a coalition of parties or a voting bloc with the likes of the Greens, SNP & Lib Dems.

[Special K]

Agreed but anything that attempts to engage young people is sound by me. We are doing some election stuff in conjunction with the 6th Forms. The apathy and disengagement of the young people is shocking.

 

Genuine question as you obviously have a lot more contact with first time voters than I do - I understand that young voters can be apathetic to anything outside their sphere of interest (iirc, alcohol, music, friendship, opposite sex, etc) but are they any more apathetic than previous generations? Is there a risk of an older generation confusing something the kids find genuinely uninteresting and dressing it up as a problem, calling it "disengagement" and accusing all the politicos of not taking the young seriously, when in fact, some of the young couldn't care less. I don't want to sound flippant, but IMHO, there is far more availability of political knowledge and ability to debate than there ever has been, certainly from when I was a first time voter. Although I really don't like the word, it seems to me that the young can be "engaged" with politics if they choose too. Some do and can seek it out and become actively or passively involved, but i suspect there are a fair few who just don't want to as they are more interested in other things and no matter how many older people tell them they should, they just couldn't give a monkeys?

 

Certainly there were more cultural influences for me when I was young. Take music for instance, the charts were full of Red Wedge, Billy Bragg, UB40, etc, all penning anti establishment lyrics, questioning the way things were and influencing young minds to think about how to change things. Angry young men and women who wanted to say something. A quick look at the charts today shows that spirit has gone. Now, i'm not suggesting that music has a duty to do this, it was just the way things were back then. Whilst it might not happen now, there is a lot more available information now - we didn't have social media, political debates, access to university campus to see organised debates from all the candidates for the local constituency, that sort of thing. Politicians and their message has never been more available, so I cannot understand why young people feel disengaged from the political arena.

[shurlock]

Nothing wrong with patronising Brand. He doles it out frequently enough.

 

Nowt wrong at all, though the whole-politics-as-aesthetics-and-transcendence-routine has probably thrown up as many right wingers as lefties. Not quite sure that's what motivates Brand, notwithstanding his highly addictive personality.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Nowt wrong at all, though the whole-politics-as-aesthetics-and-transcendence-routine has probably thrown up as many right wingers as lefties. Not quite sure that's what motivates Brand, notwithstanding his highly addictive personality.

 

Strikes me that he genuinely cares about the things he tries to highlight? Granted this is from watching a few of 'the trews' and other interviews. Haven't read the book, so can't comment on that.

 

He's got enough fame/fortune and a platform for himself to leverage if that was his goal, and the subject matter isn't exactly pandering to a pre-existing audience. I may well be wrong, but he seems me as being pretty sincere about it.

 

Can't believe it's come to this, but I feel we need more people like Brand in politics. This is from someone that used to despise him until relatively recently.

[trousers]

Youu do understand that Twitter is global and Brand has a Hollywood career

 

Crikey. I'm learning a lot today

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Strikes me that he genuinely cares about the things he tries to highlight? Granted this is from watching a few of 'the trews' and other interviews. Haven't read the book, so can't comment on that.

 

He's got enough fame/fortune and a platform for himself to leverage if that was his goal, and the subject matter isn't exactly pandering to a pre-existing audience. I may well be wrong, but he seems me as being pretty sincere about it.

 

Can't believe it's come to this, but I feel we need more people like Brand in politics. This is from someone that used to despise him until relatively recently.

 

I assume that is only because of the fact that you agree with a lot of his views though.

[Patrick Bateman]

God they all talk a load of old drivel.

[Whitey Grandad]

To be fair about 5 million are probably American women in their 30s who fancy him after his brief movie career over there.

 

Crikey I know he's had a lot of women but keeping that lot happy is quite an achievement

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I assume that is only because of the fact that you agree with a lot of his views though.

 

Nah, that isn't what I'm getting at.

 

I think there needs to be more people across the spectrum like him. Generally not former Etonians, PPE students in grey suits that mostly look and sound the same. People that can help engage and spark interest in politics and the way the country is run can only be a good thing. A lot of people, as Brand points out (sorry, but I find this hard to dispute) are totally apathetic towards politics and especially politicians. Lots of young people, minorities, less well off people feel that politicians have no experience of the life they live on a day to day basis and will never listen to them.

 

People like Brand do offer an alternative, and can in many ways relate to these people in a way Cameron, Clegg, Miliband, Farage etc simply can't. I mean, looking at those four I just listed, they are pretty similar. More voices like Brand is definitely a good thing. Passionate, caring, intelligent and articulate with the bonus of being to be able to connect with those that politicians have failed to connect with for a long time.

[View From The Top]

Genuine question as you obviously have a lot more contact with first time voters than I do - I understand that young voters can be apathetic to anything outside their sphere of interest (iirc, alcohol, music, friendship, opposite sex, etc) but are they any more apathetic than previous generations? Is there a risk of an older generation confusing something the kids find genuinely uninteresting and dressing it up as a problem, calling it "disengagement" and accusing all the politicos of not taking the young seriously, when in fact, some of the young couldn't care less. I don't want to sound flippant, but IMHO, there is far more availability of political knowledge and ability to debate than there ever has been, certainly from when I was a first time voter. Although I really don't like the word, it seems to me that the young can be "engaged" with politics if they choose too. Some do and can seek it out and become actively or passively involved, but i suspect there are a fair few who just don't want to as they are more interested in other things and no matter how many older people tell them they should, they just couldn't give a monkeys?

 

Certainly there were more cultural influences for me when I was young. Take music for instance, the charts were full of Red Wedge, Billy Bragg, UB40, etc, all penning anti establishment lyrics, questioning the way things were and influencing young minds to think about how to change things. Angry young men and women who wanted to say something. A quick look at the charts today shows that spirit has gone. Now, i'm not suggesting that music has a duty to do this, it was just the way things were back then. Whilst it might not happen now, there is a lot more available information now - we didn't have social media, political debates, access to university campus to see organised debates from all the candidates for the local constituency, that sort of thing. Politicians and their message has never been more available, so I cannot understand why young people feel disengaged from the political arena.

 

I guess the easiest way to sum it up is that they see lots of old, white men waffling on about things in a patronising way & that they believe that those people aren't interested in them or have no idea about "real life."

 

We've just done a big election thing with 4 local academies from Y11 to Y13 as well as local 6th form. UKIP won, Greens 2nd, Lib Dem 3rd, Labour 4th & Tories last.

 

The number 1 issue, bar none, was immigration.

[trousers]

Good article by Paul Krugman in the guardian on the cult of austerity.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

 

http://www.capx.co/paul-krugmans-austerity-delusion/

[Lord Duckhunter]

As an aside, I 'follow' Brand on twitter and I'll be voting. I follow many people / organisations that I don't necessarily agree with

 

I wonder how many of his 10 million followers are actually doing so out of curiosity rather than being aligned with his point of view?

 

I follow loads of people I don't agree with . lefties are by far the worst for blocking me. I've been blocked by Owen Jones , Diane Abbott and that jack Monroe bird. Yet I didn't swear or insult them, with Abbott I just wrote that I preferred AJ to her on " This Week" . George Galloway is OK, but I'm working on it. I've seen a lot worse posted to Kippers & Tories, and even given Tories more clog and they've not blocked it. The only one is that weird Mensch women and she's pinko anyway.

 

So my research is the more leftie the more thin skinned.

[saintbletch]

http://www.capx.co/paul-krugmans-austerity-delusion/

 

I thought this was an interesting quote from that article, trousers - especially as Adam Memon is employed by the free-market focussed Centre for Policy Studies.

 

...that said, Krugman's stance against austerity for ideological reasons is well made. The CPS finds it difficult to condone the actions of any party - be they blue, red, yellow or any other hue that enforces dogmatic austerity simply because it speaks to their inner ideologue. With the deficit under control, but with a national debt so gargantuan that it's not practicably manageable within our children's children's lifetime, one has to ask "Why bother with austerity at all?".

 

Surprising viewpoint, and surprising that you posted the link.

[buctootim]

http://www.capx.co/paul-krugmans-austerity-delusion/

 

Jeez Trousers, talk about unequal contests. That article was written by someone who graduated in 2013 and whose prior career extends mainly to six months at Conservative Central office. Krugman is one of the most eminent economists in the world. I'd value his opinion (or the milkman's) over Memon

 

http://www.cps.org.uk/about/staff/adam%20-memon/

Edited 29 April, 2015 by buctootim

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I follow loads of people I don't agree with . lefties are by far the worst for blocking me. I've been blocked by Owen Jones , Diane Abbott and that jack Monroe bird. Yet I didn't swear or insult them, with Abbott I just wrote that I preferred AJ to her on " This Week" . George Galloway is OK, but I'm working on it. I've seen a lot worse posted to Kippers & Tories, and even given Tories more clog and they've not blocked it. The only one is that weird Mensch women and she's pinko anyway.

 

So my research is the more leftie the more thin skinned.

 

 

Yeah man, sure.

[shurlock]

http://www.capx.co/paul-krugmans-austerity-delusion/

 

 

Krugman's article is not immune from criticism (chart 2 is descriptive rather than statistically significant, even in any loose sense)

 

But

 

Nobel Memorial Prize Winner for Economics vs. 5 paragraph rebuttal from fresh-faced, recently graduated researcher at Tory thinktank.

 

Like my 12 yo brother's Sunday league side facing the Galacticos.

Edited 29 April, 2015 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Nah, that isn't what I'm getting at.

 

I think there needs to be more people across the spectrum like him. Generally not former Etonians, PPE students in grey suits that mostly look and sound the same. People that can help engage and spark interest in politics and the way the country is run can only be a good thing. A lot of people, as Brand points out (sorry, but I find this hard to dispute) are totally apathetic towards politics and especially politicians. Lots of young people, minorities, less well off people feel that politicians have no experience of the life they live on a day to day basis and will never listen to them.

 

People like Brand do offer an alternative, and can in many ways relate to these people in a way Cameron, Clegg, Miliband, Farage etc simply can't. I mean, looking at those four I just listed, they are pretty similar. More voices like Brand is definitely a good thing. Passionate, caring, intelligent and articulate with the bonus of being to be able to connect with those that politicians have failed to connect with for a long time.

 

I think it's sad that the person who we can all relate to us someone like Brand - who has lived a life very few of us have seen. It just shows how out of touch the main political parties are that he is the only ****ing option.

Edited 29 April, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[benjii]

I sent my postal vote today. I hope I win.

 

I was amused to see the local TUSC candidate was called "Mike Marx". Mature.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I think it's sad that the person who we can all relate to us someone like Brand - who has lived a life very few of us have seen. It just shows how out of touch the main political parties are that he is the only ****ing option.

 

It is sad, but that is where we are at. Hence my, 'we need more people like him' point.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Its a bit like being lectured too about the dangers of smoking by somebody you know to be on sixty a day.

[Jonnyboy]

Crikey I know he's had a lot of women but keeping that lot happy is quite an achievement

 

It's done by taxing the top 5% at 80% and spending it on viagra.

 

No gulags involved for this revolution.

[Jonnyboy]

I follow loads of people I don't agree with . lefties are by far the worst for blocking me. I've been blocked by Owen Jones , Diane Abbott and that jack Monroe bird. Yet I didn't swear or insult them, with Abbott I just wrote that I preferred AJ to her on " This Week" . George Galloway is OK, but I'm working on it. I've seen a lot worse posted to Kippers & Tories, and even given Tories more clog and they've not blocked it. The only one is that weird Mensch women and she's pinko anyway.

 

So my research is the more leftie the more thin skinned.

 

Aka Trolling.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It is sad, but that is where we are at. Hence my, 'we need more people like him' point.

 

Oh yeah, completely agree.

[Jonnyboy]

Mr Brand is entertaining Natalie Bennett next :

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/natalie-bennett-face-russell-brand-5603458

[Lord Duckhunter]

Mr Brand is entertaining Natalie Bennett next :

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/natalie-bennett-face-russell-brand-5603458

 

Even he wouldn't **** her .

[shurlock]

Even he wouldn't **** her .

 

She'll also be there.

 

[trousers]

Jeez Trousers, talk about unequal contests. That article was written by someone who graduated in 2013 and whose prior career extends mainly to six months at Conservative Central office. Krugman is one of the most eminent economists in the world. I'd value his opinion (or the milkman's) over Memon

 

http://www.cps.org.uk/about/staff/adam%20-memon/

I'm only trying to maintain my track record of being absolutely woeful at this internet messageboard debating malarkey.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The most bonkers award goes to some fit blonde bird representing some animal party on Daily Politics . Evidently there is a lot of " speciesism " in the uk , thousands of dogs going without walks , animals denied their rights and if we keep eating them we will need 3 planets to house humans .

[Batman]

no increase in VAT, Income Tax and NI

[Unbelievable Jeff]

no increase in VAT, Income Tax and NI

 

Bound in law too.

[whelk]

[bridge too far]

Bound in law too.

 

Why does a government need a law to bind its own Chancellor to such acts? I think it was Robert Peston who pointed out that the law would be over-ridden if there was, say, another financial crisis and that there is nothing to stop the next government passing another law to override this law! Crazy!

[Batman]

Why does a government need a law to bind its own Chancellor to such acts? I think it was Robert Peston who pointed out that the law would be over-ridden if there was, say, another financial crisis and that there is nothing to stop the next government passing another law to override this law! Crazy!

take that out of it.

what are your thoughts on the 3 tax freeze pledges....good news, surely?

[Wes Tender]

I listened to Brand's diatribe to Red Ed about how the big corporations and bankers had their talons deeply embedded into the Tories. He wasn't going to get any rebuttal from Ed there. But the counter position, that the Trade Unions had their talons deeply imbedded into Labour might sit well with the two of them, but it doesn't with much of the electorate.

 

Milliband tried hard to ingratiate himself with Brand by a series of glottal stops so that the Essex lads wouldn't think that he was as posh as he is. It is a common enough device to curry favour with somebody by establishing familiarity through common ground, but I look forward to hearing Milliband's efforts when he is interviewed by a broad Glaswegian Scot, a Geordie or somebody from Zummerzet.

[Wes Tender]

 

That means nothing. If there was a rumour that Ed Milliband had been photographed with his flies open, Google searches would soar like that. I Googled the Brand/Miliband interview, so I'm afraid I'm partly culpable

[bridge too far]

take that out of it.

what are your thoughts on the 3 tax freeze pledges....good news, surely?

 

As much use as a chocolate teapot

[Jonnyboy]

Even he wouldn't **** her .

 

Are you suggesting that Russell Brand gone did penetrated Ed Milliband?

[Jonnyboy]

take that out of it.

what are your thoughts on the 3 tax freeze pledges....good news, surely?

 

Sad thing is it will buy a few votes from the working poor, whose families will suffer more when the axe comes down on more of their local services instead.

[Batman]

Sad thing is it will buy a few votes from the working poor, whose families will suffer more when the axe comes down on more of their local services instead.

 

so, not a good idea?

[shurlock]

I listened to Brand's diatribe to Red Ed about how the big corporations and bankers had their talons deeply embedded into the Tories. He wasn't going to get any rebuttal from Ed there. But the counter position, that the Trade Unions had their talons deeply imbedded into Labour might sit well with the two of them, but it doesn't with much of the electorate.

 

Milliband tried hard to ingratiate himself with Brand by a series of glottal stops so that the Essex lads wouldn't think that he was as posh as he is. It is a common enough device to curry favour with somebody by establishing familiarity through common ground, but I look forward to hearing Milliband's efforts when he is interviewed by a broad Glaswegian Scot, a Geordie or somebody from Zummerzet.

 

 

Glottal stops - nice one, Les.

 

What did you make of Joey Essex describing your Nige as well reem?