Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Which is fine, but it doesn't justify using the fact that your opponent was privately educated as stick with which to beat them, especially if you were privately educated yourself. I'm not a fan of Harriett Harman, and would like to see more diversity in all the parties, but it is a particular problem in the Conservative Party which seems to be run by a cabal of privileged male old-Etonians. I'm not saying they should be excluded from having an opinion but coming from that sort of background is relevant and will have influenced their views, so needs to be balanced by other voices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 I'm not a fan of Harriett Harman, and would like to see more diversity in all the parties, but it is a particular problem in the Conservative Party which seems to be run by a cabal of privileged male old-Etonians. I'm not saying they should be excluded from having an opinion but coming from that sort of background is relevant and will have influenced their views, so needs to be balanced by other voices When are labour going to have a female leader ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 When are labour going to have a female leader ? You see, what I've done is talk about the overall trends, and I even admitted that all parties need to improve their diversity. You've taken one example where the Tories can say they have done better than Labour and tried to use it to prove the broader point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 PS: Ukip has more men called Dave or Steve than it has women http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/ukip-has-more-men-called-dave-or-steve-than-it-has-women--xy8_P6r6wx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 I'm not a fan of Harriett Harman, and would like to see more diversity in all the parties, but it is a particular problem in the Conservative Party which seems to be run by a cabal of privileged male old-Etonians. I'm not saying they should be excluded from having an opinion but coming from that sort of background is relevant and will have influenced their views, so needs to be balanced by other voices You're doing a great job of stirring the pot by pedalling this line that the Tories are a load of toffs, therefore they need a good kicking by those whose sole motive is envy and jealousy. Have a read of this, which sets the record straight:- http://www.cityam.com/article/forget-old-etonian-chumocracy-tories-are-their-least-aristocratic-ever There isn't much in the way of retaliation from the government by citing the number of privately educated MPs in the other parties, but there is much hypocrisy spouted by them about the Tories. It used to be that Parliament consisted mainly of MPs with backgrounds in business or manufacturing, but nowadays there are far too many career politicians and those with legal backgrounds who have not lived in the real world and have little real knowledge of how business, manufacturing, commerce and finance work. When you complain about how remote MPs are from the real world, that is more to do with it rather than their educational background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 PS: Ukip has more men called Dave or Steve than it has women http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/ukip-has-more-men-called-dave-or-steve-than-it-has-women--xy8_P6r6wx Labour had more shadow cabinet ministers called Tristram than female leaders . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 If anyone had doubts that class warfare was alive and well in Britain today then they only have to look at this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 If anyone had doubts that class warfare was alive and well in Britain today then they only have to look at this thread. Tory policies hit the poorest hardest, and wealthy bankers get off scot free for tanking the economy, but it only gets called class warfare when someone dares to complain about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Tory policies hit the poorest hardest, and wealthy bankers get off scot free for tanking the economy, but it only gets called class warfare when someone dares to complain about it labour policies basically, killed 1m people in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 labour policies basically, killed 1m people in the middle east. I didn't agree with that either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Tory policies hit the poorest hardest, and wealthy bankers get off scot free for tanking the economy, but it only gets called class warfare when someone dares to complain about it ... but they tanked the economy on Labour's watch, who did **** all about it. Can't have a go at the tories about that... expect to say they are as bad as Labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Tory policies hit the poorest hardest, and wealthy bankers get off scot free for tanking the economy, but it only gets called class warfare when someone dares to complain about it Who knighted Fred Goodwin Who was in charge of the country when the bankers " tanked the economy" . Bit rich blaming the opposition , what could they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 ... but they tanked the economy on Labour's watch, who did **** all about it. Can't have a go at the tories about that... expect to say they are as bad as Labour I agree they should have regulated the banks more. Labour was too right wing at that time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 (edited) Who knighted Fred Goodwin Who was in charge of the country when the bankers " tanked the economy" . Bit rich blaming the opposition , what could they do? It was meant as two separate points, tories on one hand and a misguided blairite labour government that got too close to big business (and sucked into the economic orthodoxy) on the other Edited 28 April, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 It was meant as two separate points, tories on one hand and a foolish blairite labour government that got too close to big business on the other To be fair, at least Blair sent his kids to state school. If you ignore the fact that he was a muderous war criminal, at least he wasn't a hypocrite when it came to education Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Why does it always have to be a binary choice between liberalism and socialism? I consider myself a social democrat, committed to capitalism but with effective controls and safeguardsi think most people of the country are like that, but we have some really stupid posters who don,t understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 labour policies basically, killed 1m people in the middle east. Worth mentioning the Tories supported the war as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 To be fair, at least Blair sent his kids to state school. If you ignore the fact that he was a muderous war criminal, at least he wasn't a hypocrite when it came to educationand also blair was maggie thatchers natural successor ,carrying on her legacy and turning the labour party into a mark 2 conservative party,hence why i voted tory has i found them more left wing than labour at the last election...diane abbot is a joke in my eyes and a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 I agree they should have regulated the banks more. Labour was too right wing at that time The BoE regulated the banks for years, Brown set up the new tripartite system and it failed. So it wasn't a question of more or less regulation, but proper regulation . Anyway what is more socialist than the state bailing out & nationalisation of failing business . Capitalism works when poor business models go bust and poorly run business fail. Isn't it any wonder that banks gambled other peoples money , when they knew full well they would be bailed out. Labour privatised profits and nationalised loses , how you can call that right wing is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Isn't this the sort of sh!te UKIP are supposed to oppose? I'm sure they would be as accommodating to Muslims, Sikhs, Jews or any other religion, right? Also, seriously, 'Christian Manifesto'. This country long since stopped being religious. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11566605/Ukip-offers-Christians-who-object-to-gay-marriage-special-legal-protection.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 (edited) Anyway what is more socialist than the state bailing out & nationalisation of failing business . Capitalism works when poor business models go bust and poorly run business fail. Isn't it any wonder that banks gambled other peoples money , when they knew full well they would be bailed out. Labour privatised profits and nationalised loses , how you can call that right wing is beyond me. Did the reasons for the bailouts pass you by? It was on the news you know. Its nothing to do with wanting to save a failing company per se - its the fact that they held the banking of millions of people and businesses. Suppose you banked with Lloyds or RBS. If they failed how would your salary get paid in, how would your mortgage, utilities etc get paid out, where would you get cash from? what would happen to funds held in SIPPS and other investments. Its naive in the extreme to think you could just let the banks fail, not worry about their £1.5trillion balance sheets - who owed what to who - and that 10million people could all transfer their banks accounts no problem to other banks who of course would have the capacity to cope with 10m new customers overnight. Edited 28 April, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Worth mentioning the Tories supported the war as well. That's as bad as blaming the people that voted for Labour!!! Parliament was lied to. Plain and simple. The Labour government made up crap about weapons of mass destruction? (Remember 45 minutes anyone?) Had Labour been honest about the situation, then things may have been different. They may have not got support from the Tories and certainly would not have had public support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Tory policies hit the poorest hardest, and wealthy bankers get off scot free for tanking the economy, but it only gets called class warfare when someone dares to complain about it Please elaborate, I know this stuff gets repeated all the time but I'd like to see some frinstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 That's as bad as blaming the people that voted for Labour!!! Parliament was lied to. Plain and simple. The Labour government made up crap about weapons of mass destruction? (Remember 45 minutes anyone?) Had Labour been honest about the situation, then things may have been different. They may have not got support from the Tories and certainly would not have had public support. Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming voters of either persuasion. But simply saying Labour went to war, and ignoring the fact that the Tories were supportive is a bit silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 The BoE regulated the banks for years, Brown set up the new tripartite system and it failed. So it wasn't a question of more or less regulation, but proper regulation . Anyway what is more socialist than the state bailing out & nationalisation of failing business . Capitalism works when poor business models go bust and poorly run business fail. Isn't it any wonder that banks gambled other peoples money , when they knew full well they would be bailed out. Labour privatised profits and nationalised loses , how you can call that right wing is beyond me. The FSA inherited a fragmentary mess and was seen as an improvement on the nine legacy bodies that preceded it. Ironically, its establishment was delayed because of fears that it would be overbearing. However, over time, its principles-based regulation was celebrated by the great and good for restoring the City's competitiveness and copied by others around the world. The BoE remained responsible for overseeing the stability of the financial system as a whole. If there was a flaw, it was Treasury's inability to get its partners to tow the same policy line - conceivably the situation would have been worse under the status quo ante. What failed, more importantly, was not an institution or its configuration; but an entire system of thought, one that had blinded regulators and politicians, whatever the ideological stripe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Please elaborate, I know this stuff gets repeated all the time but I'd like to see some frinstances. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/27/poorest-hit-hardest-coalition-changes-report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Whilst at first this seems shocking, when you dig a bit deeper, there is more to this than simply the bedroom tax. Why pitch a tent tent up on the moors in the winter???? what the **** were social services doing?????? why didn't their family do more, like take them in for a few nights so they could get assessed??. why did they fail to attend job seeking interviews??? So whilst I agree that having your toes amputated is truly shocking, to simply blame it just on bedroom tax exonerates people who had a duty of care. If I was them, I would be taking legal action against social services. (BTW I am not saying I agree with the bedroom tax, I am merely stating that this situation was avoidable) Do you have the full case notes to hand for this one pap, as there appears to be several pieces of the jigsaw missing in the report? From what I can make out, it looks like this case might be due to mismanagement at a local level rather than as a direct result of government policy, but its impossible to come to a conclusion on that based on the snippets the newspaper has chosen to report. Keep justifying, boys. Particularly like the request for case notes. Would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 That's as bad as blaming the people that voted for Labour!!! Parliament was lied to. Plain and simple. The Labour government made up crap about weapons of mass destruction? (Remember 45 minutes anyone?) Had Labour been honest about the situation, then things may have been different. They may have not got support from the Tories and certainly would not have had public support. The government tried to go to war with Assad without proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming voters of either persuasion. But simply saying Labour went to war, and ignoring the fact that the Tories were supportive is a bit silly. And likewise Milliband and Labour were equally supportive of us taking action against Libya, not that you would believe that, given the hypocritical attack on Cameron by him, blaming him for the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Keep justifying, boys. Particularly like the request for case notes. Would be funny if it weren't so tragic. All valid enough comments IMO. Having posted the link to the article, I wouldn't expect you to accept that there was more to it than the story that the Liverpool Echo published and the slant that they have placed on it. A tragedy, no doubt, but Manna from heaven during an election campaign, given that many of their readers, like you, won't wish to accept there is a propaganda element to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 All valid enough comments IMO. Having posted the link to the article, I wouldn't expect you to accept that there was more to it than the story that the Liverpool Echo published and the slant that they have placed on it. A tragedy, no doubt, but Manna from heaven during an election campaign, given that many of their readers, like you, won't wish to accept there is a propaganda element to it. Everything is propaganda. Amputated toes are a bit more tangible though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 (edited) Keep justifying, boys. Particularly like the request for case notes. Would be funny if it weren't so tragic. So what you are saying is that this is plain and simply down to the Bedroom Tax? Nothing else? No questions as to why they were not re-housed? No awareness of their neurological conditions and disabilities?? No questions as to why social services failed to recognise that vulnerable people were living in a tent on the moors? No comment regarding the DWP spokesperson who claims they were not sanctioned?? No, let's just blame the bedroom tax, because social services can do no wrong (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/26/baby-a-died-sunderland-failures-social-services-review) I suggest that someone at the local council has some serious explaining to do. It's rather convenient to blame bedroom tax, in order to protect incompetent public sector workers who are paid to look out for such people. I expect to see sackings over this and compensation paid to the poor chap. As for the bedroom tax, as I have said, I am not a fan of it. But I am not a fan of incompetence either, especially from public servants. Edited 28 April, 2015 by Johnny Bognor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Please elaborate, I know this stuff gets repeated all the time but I'd like to see some frinstances. Think it was Pap who posted this before: http://stupidsanctions.tumblr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Everything is propaganda. Amputated toes are a bit more tangible though. Here's a bit of propaganda for the Tories I found in the Guardian. It's about Labour's record on the NHS http://www.ianbirrell.com/labours-nhs-record-is-soiled-by-failure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 And likewise Milliband and Labour were equally supportive of us taking action against Libya, not that you would believe that, given the hypocritical attack on Cameron by him, blaming him for the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean. He supported the action but not leaving them alone to clear up the mess afterwards. Cameron deserved all he got for that after flying out there and giving that speech about standing shoulder to shoulder with the Libyan people etc. He did that to make himself look a like a hero yet he left the country to tear itself apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Keep justifying, boys. Particularly like the request for case notes. Would be funny if it weren't so tragic. *tick* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 Did the reasons for the bailouts pass you by? It was on the news you know. Its nothing to do with wanting to save a failing company per se - its the fact that they held the banking of millions of people and businesses. Suppose you banked with Lloyds or RBS. If they failed how would your salary get paid in, how would your mortgage, utilities etc get paid out, where would you get cash from? what would happen to funds held in SIPPS and other investments. Its naive in the extreme to think you could just let the banks fail, not worry about their £1.5trillion balance sheets - who owed what to who - and that 10million people could all transfer their banks accounts no problem to other banks who of course would have the capacity to cope with 10m new customers overnight. I made no comment as to whether it was right or wrong , just that the banking crisis was not labour " being too right wing " , which was the post I was responding to . It was a fact that profits were privatised and losses nationalised , hardly " being too right wing " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 28 April, 2015 Share Posted 28 April, 2015 *tick* I mean, seriously, wtf was your expectation? "Oh yes, I have his confidential case notes right here. Work away!" Fk sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holepuncture Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-labour-will-toughen-hate-crimes-legislation-surrounding-islamophobia-10203918.html Shame on you Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-labour-will-toughen-hate-crimes-legislation-surrounding-islamophobia-10203918.html Shame on you Ed. From the man that refers to immigrants as "vermin". Top stuff, sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 Miliband's critics better hope his Brand interview is a car crash, because they're publicising the hell out of it and building his audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 He supported the action but not leaving them alone to clear up the mess afterwards. Cameron deserved all he got for that after flying out there and giving that speech about standing shoulder to shoulder with the Libyan people etc. He did that to make himself look a like a hero yet he left the country to tear itself apart. So what do you think Britain should have done in Libya, an independent country in Africa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 29 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 29 April, 2015 I mean, seriously, wtf was your expectation? Given it was a rhetorical question my expectations were met Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 My God, Russell Brand. I couldn't have any less respect for the Labour Party right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 My God, Russell Brand. I couldn't have any less respect for the Labour Party right now. We get it, UJ, you're a Tory. Anything connected with the Labour Party, you're going to see as a negative. But please don't pretend you've been anything other than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-labour-will-toughen-hate-crimes-legislation-surrounding-islamophobia-10203918.html Shame on you Ed. Well, being the even-handed bloke he is, no doubt we can expect the same statement tomorrow about how he is going to apply the same legislation to sections of the Islamic community against the hate that some of them spew out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 We get it, UJ, you're a Tory. Anything connected with the Labour Party, you're going to see as a negative. But please don't pretend you've been anything other than that. I would hope that people from across the political spectrum would be able to agree that Brand is a plum of the highest order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 I would hope that people from across the political spectrum would be able to agree that Brand is a plum of the highest order. Of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 April, 2015 Share Posted 29 April, 2015 My God, Russell Brand. I couldn't have any less respect for the Labour Party right now. Am sure they'll live. Looking forward to Cameron meeting Jack Whitehall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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