General Election 2015

[Lord Duckhunter]

2011. Or are you going to claim Alternative Vote wasn't the exact form of PR you would have chosen so doesn't count and therefore you are justified in using childlike epithets?

 

It isn't a form of pr , let alone the " exact one" I want.

[buctootim]

Was it before or after the AV vote?

 

You know it reduces respect for your views, right?

[Lord Duckhunter]

You know it reduces respect for your views, right?

 

Its not a view, you can argue over a view. It is a fact. We did not have a vote on any form of PR

[Johnny Bognor]

I see where you're coming from. Thanks again.

 

But, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, the only thing you have put forward as a reason that Labour doesn't represent your centraist/mean-centralist views is in fact an historical feeling, based on Labour governments of the past.

 

I'm not saying that it isn't a a genuine reason for not voting Labour. Far from it, we all bring that sort of historical experience/baggage to the decision. It seems sensible for you to not vote Labour if you don't trust their economic record - or perhaps their economic team (Ed Balls anyone?).

 

But, it does seem to leave my contention intact - that Labour does now represent a mean-centre-ground in British politics.

 

Doesn't it?

 

Maybe it is based on recent experience, but Milliaband has gone on about growing the economy without being too specific how he'll do it. Maybe he has and the message is lost. Who knows.

 

Labour have moved towards the centre, because you need the centre to govern. However, there is a threat that they will promise politics of the centre to get elected, only to be dragged back to the left by the SNP. Whilst I can see why this might be appealing to traditional lefties, because they may get what they've always wanted, centralies like me are uncomfortable with this.

 

So if it is a case of the current Con / Dem coalition versus a Labour / SNP coalition, I would prefer the current one because the Lib Dems pull the tories back to the centre, whereas the SNP will pull labour away from the centre. After the economy, this is probably the biggest fear of a true centralie

Edited 17 April, 2015 by Johnny Bognor

[Doctoroncall]

 

But, it does seem to leave my contention intact - that Labour does now represent a mean-centre-ground in British politics.

 

 

I haven't had much time for the election this year or politics in general except for the osmosis of what's being reported while doing my day to day work and the few minutes of SW surfing! Interesting that you say Labour represents the centre ground. What are their polices compared to left wing ideologies?

 

 

As a floating voter, I'd certainly be more interested in the Bognor party... Go Johnny!

[saintbletch]

Maybe it is based on recent experience, but Milliaband has gone on about growing the economy without being too specific how he'll do it. Maybe he has and the message is lost. Who knows.

 

Labour have moved towards the centre, because you need the centre to govern. However, there is a threat that they will promise politics of the centre to get elected, only to be dragged back to the left by the SNP. Whilst I can see why this might be appealing to traditional lefties, because they may get what they've always wanted, centralies like me are uncomfortable with this.

 

So I guess it is uncertainty about the economy, but it is also the risk of a sharp move to the left to appease the SNP.

 

So if it is a case of the current Con / Dem coalition versus a Labour / SNP coalition, I would prefer the current one because the Lib Dems pull the tories back to the centre, whereas the SNP will pull labour away from the centre.

 

Makes sense.

[buctootim]

Maybe it is based on recent experience, but Milliaband has gone on about growing the economy without being too specific how he'll do it. Maybe he has and the message is lost. Who knows.

 

Labour have moved towards the centre, because you need the centre to govern. However, there is a threat that they will promise politics of the centre to get elected, only to be dragged back to the left by the SNP. Whilst I can see why this might be appealing to traditional lefties, because they may get what they've always wanted, centralies like me are uncomfortable with this.

 

So if it is a case of the current Con / Dem coalition versus a Labour / SNP coalition, I would prefer the current one because the Lib Dems pull the tories back to the centre, whereas the SNP will pull labour away from the centre. After the economy, this is probably the biggest fear of a true centralie

 

I don't disagree with any of the analysis. The LD's have clearly had a moderating influence on the Conservatives, ironically more to the Conservatives electoral benefit than their own. I doubt though that the LDs would sign up for another Conservative / LD coalition this time, the relationship seems to have broken down, so its a moot point.

[View From The Top]

What is pathetic is your two word dismissive response to somebody else's opinion. I understand that you're a teacher/lecturer and it might be that as a result you have some over-inflated opinion of what a clever person you are, but responding to others' opinions in this manner hardly demonstrates much intellectual capacity. How about you trying to respond to the points OldNick made and the questions he asked? Then, even if other posters disagreed with your views as you do with OldNick's at least they would have some degree of respect for you.

 

I don't really give a shiney sh*t what you or anyone else thinks.

 

HTH.

[Johnny Bognor]

Makes sense.

 

... and that is why Cameron is playing on this fear by pushing Labour and SNP togther in order to gain votes, whilst Milliband is trying to distance Labour from the SNP in order to gain votes.

 

When in fact both leaders want the opposite.

[View From The Top]

Maybe it is based on recent experience, but Milliaband has gone on about growing the economy without being too specific how he'll do it. Maybe he has and the message is lost. Who knows.

 

Labour have moved towards the centre, because you need the centre to govern. However, there is a threat that they will promise politics of the centre to get elected, only to be dragged back to the left by the SNP. Whilst I can see why this might be appealing to traditional lefties, because they may get what they've always wanted, centralies like me are uncomfortable with this.

 

So if it is a case of the current Con / Dem coalition versus a Labour / SNP coalition, I would prefer the current one because the Lib Dems pull the tories back to the centre, whereas the SNP will pull labour away from the centre. After the economy, this is probably the biggest fear of a true centralie

 

Big assumption there mush based on a formal coalition.

 

Personally I think the jocks will get much more control of their own economy, especially taxation, as payment for support and nothing more.

[Wes Tender]

I don't really give a shiney sh*t what you or anyone else thinks.

 

HTH.

 

I'll assume that as you're a teacher, the inability to spell "shiny" correctly must have been a typo.

 

HTH

[buctootim]

Big assumption there mush based on a formal coalition.

 

Personally I think the jocks will get much more control of their own economy, especially taxation, as payment for support and nothing more.

 

This. It will be informal support of a Labour minority government imo, with Labour reying on an ad hoc block of SNP, LDs and Greens which changes depending on the issue and vote. Could be interesting.

[View From The Top]

... and that is why Cameron is playing on this fear by pushing Labour and SNP togther in order to gain votes, whilst Milliband is trying to distance Labour from the SNP in order to gain votes.

 

When in fact both leaders want the opposite.

 

I disagree with that as well. I personally think that both main parties are well aware of the maths & behind the scenes the deals are being worked on but the parties are still in the PR zone of "when we win".

[View From The Top]

I'll assume that as you're a teacher, the inability to spell "shiny" correctly must have been a typo.

 

HTH

 

Lecturer and no, it was a spelling mistake.

 

HTH.

[aintforever]

If a Labour/SNP coalition win by a nose then it might change many people's views on PR.

 

It would certainly highlight how daft the FPTP system is, having someone who wants to break up the UK in the cabinet and a government more left wing than more than 90% of the country voted for.

[View From The Top]

If a Labour/SNP coalition win by a nose then it might change many people's views on PR.

 

It would certainly highlight how daft the FPTP system is, having someone who wants to break up the UK in the cabinet and a government more left wing than more than 90% of the country voted for.

 

Again you're assuming that there will be some form of formal coalition.

[badgerx16]

I think the point is that this was the Alternative Vote.

 

Not strictly PR.

Not at all according to the Electoral Reform Society:

 

"

AV is not proportional representation and in certain electoral conditions, such as landslides, can produce a more disproportional result than First Past the Post (FPTP) - See more at: http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/alternative-vote#sthash.Y6M6TNKv.dpuf "

[badgerx16]

Its not a view, you can argue over a view. It is a fact. We did not have a vote on any form of PR

 

Correct.

[Johnny Bognor]

Big assumption there mush based on a formal coalition.

 

Personally I think the jocks will get much more control of their own economy, especially taxation, as payment for support and nothing more.

 

It's a big assumption, but a legitimate fear. The fact that lefties are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect, is not only about anything but the tories, but also pulling Labour back to the left.

FWIW, I would rather a Labour majority than a Labour/SNP coalition.

 

 

This. It will be informal support of a Labour minority government imo, with Labour reying on an ad hoc block of SNP, LDs and Greens which changes depending on the issue and vote. Could be interesting.

 

Political allegiancies aside, it will be interesting. Far more interesting than flipping between tory and labour, left and right

 

 

...having someone who wants to break up the UK in the cabinet and a government more left wing than more than 90% of the country voted for.

 

This would be difficult to stomach. If the SNP stuck to Scotland only policies, then fine. It is not right that a party that wants to seperate from England ends up governing England in the process. Could lead to a rise in nationalism and the Lothian question comes into play. In retrospect I reckon Cameron might regret supporting the union, as a now independent scotland would probably have kept him in power

Edited 17 April, 2015 by Johnny Bognor

[Lord Duckhunter]

Speaking as someone who wanted and still wants the Sweatys to sling their hooks ( and that daft welsh bird can go as well) I find the whole SNP in government scare stories laughable. The establishment wanted them in , we were " better together " . If you believe in the union , then you must believe in the Sweatys right to influence , mould and even run that Union . It's incoherent to claim otherwise .

 

The establishment support FPTP, the establishment think we are " better together" , but when their voting system produces influence from people they campaigned to be part of our country look like forming part of the government , it's dangerous . **** sake who are these clowns ?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Thank god we have a public school boy ex-Tory son of a Stockbroker who used to work in the City and wants to remove all rights of people in favour of business and corporation to save us from the establishment!

 

Rise up the people's army!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Makes sense.

 

Very difficult to argue with the points he's putting across...

[Batman]

Thank god we have a public school boy ex-Tory son of a Stockbroker who used to work in the City and wants to remove all rights of people in favour of business and corporation to save us from the establishment!

 

Rise up the people's army!

 

brilliant.

[Johnny Bognor]

Very difficult to argue with the points he's putting across...

 

Mate, I could write a manifesto of simple, but good workable ideas to make the country a better place. It astounds me that with the resources at the disposal of the main parties, none of them seem to be able to do the same. Maybe they are tied down by the dogma of their own parties. Maybe the fact that many of them lack real life experience, holds them back.

[Saint86]

This. It will be informal support of a Labour minority government imo, with Labour reying on an ad hoc block of SNP, LDs and Greens which changes depending on the issue and vote. Could be interesting.

 

It would be a ******* shambles!!! I really hope the Tories either get a majority or form a coalition with libs again.

 

Not to mention that you'd have 50mps in charge of governing the UK whose sole objective it is to break up the united kingdom and will hold the government hostage over any policy they see fit to achieve this. What a way to hamstring the strongest recovery in the G20

 

But then, many people abhor a government/country that lives responsibly and within in its means I suppose... as long as they ultimately get more in their pocket whilst those who are successful pay for it until the whole system crashes down again.

[Saint86]

Speaking as someone who wanted and still wants the Sweatys to sling their hooks ( and that daft welsh bird can go as well) I find the whole SNP in government scare stories laughable. The establishment wanted them in , we were " better together " . If you believe in the union , then you must believe in the Sweatys right to influence , mould and even run that Union . It's incoherent to claim otherwise .

 

The establishment support FPTP, the establishment think we are " better together" , but when their voting system produces influence from people they campaigned to be part of our country look like forming part of the government , it's dangerous . **** sake who are these clowns ?

 

That would be akin to UKIP running Brussels with the honest objective of strengthening the union. Or Sinn Fein doing the same for the UK. All those parties are in government to get out their respective ones and nothing more.

 

Ironically, in the long run, Scottish independence means no more Labour governments. An interesting quandary for Ed Milalisp the Red don't you think?

[Batman]

I think throughout this that sturgeon has gotten off fairly lightly. Not one of the other leaders have gone to town on the SNP comical policies or their history for being Tory buddies and all that. Labour really can't go for it the other two women are way out of their depth and want to be on her side. Nigel has had a pop and Cameron has milliband in his sights really

 

She just shouts about more free stuff and everyone claps

Edited 17 April, 2015 by Batman

[LGTL]

It would be a ******* shambles!!! I really hope the Tories either get a majority or form a coalition with libs again.

 

Not to mention that you'd have 50mps in charge of governing the UK whose sole objective it is to break up the united kingdom and will hold the government hostage over any policy they see fit to achieve this. What a way to hamstring the strongest recovery in the G20

 

But then, many people abhor a government/country that lives responsibly and within in its means I suppose... as long as they ultimately get more in their pocket whilst those who are successful pay for it until the whole system crashes down again.

 

You'd better get use to it because that's looking the most likely outcome. The Tories have made a complete and utter mess of their entire campaign.

[View From The Top]

It's a big assumption, but a legitimate fear. The fact that lefties are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect, is not only about anything but the tories, but also pulling Labour back to the left.

 

Are they? I'm a leftie as are most of my friends and family and I know not one who is rubbing their hands with glee about a shift to the left. If anything, like most people, they understand that the SNP will want a deal that benefits Scotland but don't think for one moment that it will drag a Londoncentric Labour party to the left.

 

If we are rubbing our hands it's because we want to keep the tories out, not drag Labour to the left. You are confusing the two.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Mate, I could write a manifesto of simple, but good workable ideas to make the country a better place. It astounds me that with the resources at the disposal of the main parties, none of them seem to be able to do the same. Maybe they are tied down by the dogma of their own parties. Maybe the fact that many of them lack real life experience, holds them back.

 

They're too out of touch. Of course, I've been accused of the same thing on here so I'll probably be called a hypocrite on here for saying that...sigh.

[trousers]

Speaking as someone who wanted and still wants the Sweatys to sling their hooks ( and that daft welsh bird can go as well) I find the whole SNP in government scare stories laughable. The establishment wanted them in , we were " better together " . If you believe in the union , then you must believe in the Sweatys right to influence , mould and even run that Union . It's incoherent to claim otherwise .

 

The establishment support FPTP, the establishment think we are " better together" , but when their voting system produces influence from people they campaigned to be part of our country look like forming part of the government , it's dangerous . **** sake who are these clowns ?

You're doing what the SNP do by conflating 'Scotland' with 'The SNP'. The two aren't synonymous given that the SNP don't represent the views of the majority of the Scottish electorate (37% voted for separation. )

 

There's nothing contradictory about wanting 'Scotland' to be part of the UK and not wanting a UK separatist party having their hands on the levers of power in the very sovereign state that they want to destroy. There are plenty of other Scottish MPs from other parties who are able represent the views of the majority of Scots. Although, given the nature of the FPTP system the SNP are likely to get most seats with less than half of the votes this time around of course...

 

The SNP have been very adept at conflating the two.

Edited 17 April, 2015 by trousers
@

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It would be a ******* shambles!!! I really hope the Tories either get a majority or form a coalition with libs again.

 

Not to mention that you'd have 50mps in charge of governing the UK whose sole objective it is to break up the united kingdom and will hold the government hostage over any policy they see fit to achieve this. What a way to hamstring the strongest recovery in the G20

 

But then, many people abhor a government/country that lives responsibly and within in its means I suppose... as long as they ultimately get more in their pocket whilst those who are successful pay for it until the whole system crashes down again.

 

Even as a member of the Tory party, I DON'T want a Tory majority. The cuts are too right wing, they need reeling it at the moment. Conlib is the best for me at the moment.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Are they? I'm a leftie as are most of my friends and family and I know not one who is rubbing their hands with glee about a shift to the left. If anything, like most people, they understand that the SNP will want a deal that benefits Scotland but don't think for one moment that it will drag a Londoncentric Labour party to the left.

 

If we are rubbing our hands it's because we want to keep the tories out, not drag Labour to the left. You are confusing the two.

 

Would prefer a Labour majority to LabSNP

[badgerx16]

The cuts are too right wing.... .

 

I'm a 'cut' and I'm not right wing.

[View From The Top]

It would be a ******* shambles!!! I really hope the Tories either get a majority or form a coalition with libs again.

 

Not to mention that you'd have 50mps in charge of governing the UK whose sole objective it is to break up the united kingdom and will hold the government hostage over any policy they see fit to achieve this. What a way to hamstring the strongest recovery in the G20

 

But then, many people abhor a government/country that lives responsibly and within in its means I suppose... as long as they ultimately get more in their pocket whilst those who are successful pay for it until the whole system crashes down again.

 

Dry your eyes mush.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm a 'cut' and I'm not right wing.

 

You're spelling needs improving

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're doing what the SNP do by conflating 'Scotland' with 'The SNP'. The two aren't synonymous given that the SNP don't represent the views of the majority of the Scottish electorate (37% voted for separation. )

 

There's nothing contradictory about wanting 'Scotland' to be part of the UK and not wanting a UK separatist party having their hands on the levers of power in the very sovereign state that they want to destroy. There are plenty of other Scottish MPs from other parties who are able represent the views of the majority of Scots. Although, given the nature of the FPTP system the SNP are likely to get most seats with less than half of the votes this time around of course...

 

The SNP have been very adept at conflating the two.

 

I'm not conflating anything . The Establishment wants FPTP votes. The Establishment think we're "better together" . If the sweatys send enough SNP MPs to Westminster and they hold the balance of power because of FPTP, that's as legitimate as any other coalition . Unionists seem to want to pick and mix parts of the union .

[CB Fry]

Its not a view, you can argue over a view. It is a fact. We did not have a vote on any form of PR

I would like to take this opportunity to agree with Lord Duckhunter for once.

 

AV is not PR in any way or form. It's a sub-optimal system, better than FPTP but not great.

 

And the anti-AV campaign was a stunning exercise in confusing/misleading the voters on something which, despite being fairly rubbish and not proportional, was not the complicated system the campaign made it out be. Oh well, they played a blinder though and won convincingly.

 

Let's see if any rainbow coalition has PR on its wish list.

Edited 17 April, 2015 by CB Fry

[trousers]

I'm not conflating anything . The Establishment wants FPTP votes. The Establishment think we're "better together" . If the sweatys send enough SNP MPs to Westminster and they hold the balance of power because of FPTP, that's as legitimate as any other coalition . Unionists seem to want to pick and mix parts of the union .

 

I agree that the FPTP voting system clouds the logic somewhat. That doesn't detract from the fact that a lot of people, not least the SNP, talk about what the "Scottish people" want when what they really mean is what a minority of Scottish people, i.e. "Scottish Nationalists", want. But, yes, I acknowledge that the voting system skews reality.

[Verbal]

Maybe it is based on recent experience, but Milliaband has gone on about growing the economy without being too specific how he'll do it. Maybe he has and the message is lost. Who knows.

 

Labour have moved towards the centre, because you need the centre to govern. However, there is a threat that they will promise politics of the centre to get elected, only to be dragged back to the left by the SNP. Whilst I can see why this might be appealing to traditional lefties, because they may get what they've always wanted, centralies like me are uncomfortable with this.

 

So if it is a case of the current Con / Dem coalition versus a Labour / SNP coalition, I would prefer the current one because the Lib Dems pull the tories back to the centre, whereas the SNP will pull labour away from the centre. After the economy, this is probably the biggest fear of a true centralie

 

Apples and oranges. The coalition was, for all its many faults, an actual coalition. Labour could never enter a formal coalition with the SNP, not least because to do so would mean Miliband entering a pact with the party that destroyed his north of the border. Such a pact would give Labour in Scotland no hope of revival - because if a Lab/SNP pact goes wrong, Scottish Labour cops the blame by association, and if it works, Scottish Labour (and therefore Miliband) also lose because the kudos goes to their nemesis.

 

So if Labour find themselves in the position of a minority government they'll do deals issue-by-issue with the SNP (and possibly others), but Miliband will be very careful not to form any kind of pact with the SNP, especially one that gives SNP politicians cabinet positions in non-Scottish matters. It would be political suicide.

[trousers]

I still maintain that the thing that is currently annoying the SNP most is that it's looking unlikely that the Tories will be back in power. Their most powerful independence-selling grievance is about to disappear (for a while at least)

[Batman]

They just did a prediction type segment on BBC news.

it seems either Labour or Conservative could quite easily form the next government. There is so little between them and their potential allies

[badgerx16]

You're spelling needs improving

You're correct, I missed the L out of cult.

[Batman]

The woman that produced the BBC debate confirmed that Clegg and Cameron were not invited so to speak. It was always down as the 'opposition' debate

 

probably why it got significantly less viewers compared to the others

[CB Fry]

The woman that produced the BBC debate confirmed that Clegg and Cameron were not invited so to speak. It was always down as the 'opposition' debate

 

probably why it got significantly less viewers compared to the others

That's only half the story. The only reason the BBC ended up with a sub-optimal "opposition debate" is because of Cameron's refusal to participate in the debates at all.

 

Eventually they got a concession which was him being in the 7-way but let's not pretend this opposition debate was anything the broadcasters (or the other parties) genuinely wanted. Obviously they didn't.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

The woman that produced the BBC debate confirmed that Clegg and Cameron were not invited so to speak. It was always down as the 'opposition' debate

 

probably why it got significantly less viewers compared to the others

Seriously mate, don't fall for their spin. We can disagree on policy but there's no doubt that the Tories are being utterly devious on this one, as CB says

Edited 18 April, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Convict Colony]

I think throughout this that sturgeon has gotten off fairly lightly. Not one of the other leaders have gone to town on the SNP comical policies or their history for being Tory buddies and all that. Labour really can't go for it the other two women are way out of their depth and want to be on her side. Nigel has had a pop and Cameron has milliband in his sights really

 

She just shouts about more free stuff and everyone claps

 

hahahahahhahaha so true, she's like the scottish Oprah

 

 

Also interesting to see in the news today that the BBC has been borrowing from the EU bank and received 4mil in funding from the EU, may explain the movement of the org away from the EU referendum parties or am I reading too much into this.

Edited 18 April, 2015 by Convict Colony

[saintbletch]

I haven't had much time for the election this year or politics in general except for the osmosis of what's being reported while doing my day to day work and the few minutes of SW surfing! Interesting that you say Labour represents the centre ground. What are their polices compared to left wing ideologies?

 

 

As a floating voter, I'd certainly be more interested in the Bognor party... Go Johnny!

 

Well, Doctoroncall, I'm not sure I'm an expert on either left-wing ideologies or the Labour manifesto. Comrade pap might be along soon to help me out, but I'd say that someone on the left might search the Labour manifesto for policies that try to reduce the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest. They'd also probably search for measures to protect the weakest in society at the expense of the strongest. They'd likely want to see policies that attempt to flatten some of the social and economic strata that many perceive stop 'social mobility'. Some may expect the exit from trade agreements (European Union) that artificially lower wages, and make life difficult for British workers. And they'd likely want to see something that restores confidence that our country is not overly beholden to large corporations or media organisations.

 

On another matter, as party treasurer for The Johnny Bognor Party, I need to inform you that your subscription is overdue. I'll PM you the bank account details.

 

Also, we have some vacant positions that you might help to be able to fill.

 

We've got the corrupt treasurer (moi), but to be taken seriously as a centrist party in modern British politics, we still need a peadophile, an expense fiddler, a lobbyist-interface-operative (must have experience of handling cash), a racist, a tree-hugger, a lesbian, a dwarf, a unionist, a republican, a royalist, an anarchist, a conspiracy theorist (I've had someone recommended to me for this role), oh and a sexual deviant (must be able to zip self into overnight back, and must have own orange).

 

Thanks.

[Batman]

Seriously mate, don't fall for their spin. We can disagree on policy but there's no doubt that the Tories are being utterly devious on this one, as CB says

 

there is a QT special on 30th April. Clegg, Cameron and Milliband only. There was the paxman borefest with milliband and clegg

I think having a varied selection is better than the same three debates. (if we really need to have any)

[Wes Tender]

there is a QT special on 30th April. Clegg, Cameron and Milliband only. There was the paxman borefest with milliband and clegg

I think having a varied selection is better than the same three debates. (if we really need to have any)

 

And then there are all the other ways in which the voting public can appraise themselves of the various party's policies via their manifestos, other interviews in the media, etc. Wishing to see the party leaders debating policy either in a circus environment such as the multi-leader debates or as a Milliband/Cameron head to head, makes it look as if it's a presidential election based purely on how well they come across in the media.

 

Cameron was very astute to avoid anything beyond what he has committed to, as was shown by the last debate, when the minor parties having no other target, ganged up on Milliband, especially the SNP's shrill Sturgeon.