pap Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Re-engage with the democratic process. It's really not difficult. Which democratic process would that be? The one where only 150 seats matter? The one where our politicians are bought and paid for by corporate or foreign interests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Picketing Government buildings perhaps? Why not attack council buildings etc? Or was it just because they fancied a new TV and some Beats by Dre headphones? All of this assumes that people act rationally. We're talking about people who are sick and tired of living in poverty, don't have any prospects, and feel powerless to change things via formal means. So eventually they lash out in an uncontrolled, directionless way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Which democratic process would that be? The one where only 150 seats matter? The one where our politicians are bought and paid for by corporate or foreign interests? Yes, that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Yes, that one. The process is broken, and absent any huge course correction, will continue to be so. Unsubstantiated apologism doesn't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 (edited) So you're actually advocating arson of public buildings? That would have been preferable? Brilliant, UJ. To quote the great Cap'n Mal, "my days of not taking you seriously are at a middle". Preferable to burning down the general publics businesses, of course. How could it not be? When those rioters were down your road or wherever were you thinking "I hope they burn down my house rather than the library down the road." Edited 10 April, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 The process is broken, and absent any huge course correction, will continue to be so. Unsubstantiated apologism doesn't change that. Wah wah wah, the process is broken, let's smash other people's stuff up. Pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Wah wah wah, the process is broken, let's smash other people's stuff up. Pathetic. If they'd put in that sort of effort at school they wouldn't be in that mess in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 If they'd put in that sort of effort at school they wouldn't be in that mess in the first place. But it's so hard to do that when you don't have good role models or have mental health problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 If they'd put in that sort of effort at school they wouldn't be in that mess in the first place. Again you assume people are rational. Kids are dumb and make bad decisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 But it's so hard to do that when you don't have good role models or have mental health problems I'm certainly not talking about those with mental health problems. Role models can be found everywhere, teachers for example. But no, they're not cool enough role models, so don't get picked. But the bloke who sells drugs down the block with the blacked out slammed 7 series seems pretty cool so they pick him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 If they'd put in that sort of effort at school they wouldn't be in that mess in the first place. Ah yes, the age old tory motto of you get out what you put in. People are poor because they are feckless. How exactly did Cameron come into all that wealth? Did he work hard for it? It's ******** of the highest order. If you are born on an inner city estate, where poverty is rife, crime is high and schools are crap the odds are stacked against you from the get go. Hard work alone does not solve societies problems. People are not poor, or in crap positions simply because they are lazy, feckless or didn't try at school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 But it's so hard to do that when you don't have good role models or have mental health problems Can we not do this please? People were not out rioting because they had mental health issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Again you assume people are rational. Kids are dumb and make bad decisions People in general make bad decisions. But then they get castigated for them, and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Ah yes, the age old tory motto of you get out what you put in. People are poor because they are feckless. How exactly did Cameron come into all that wealth? Did he work hard for it? It's ******** of the highest order. If you are born on an inner city estate, where poverty is rife, crime is high and schools are crap the odds are stacked against you from the get go. Hard work alone does not solve societies problems. People are not poor, or in crap positions simply because they are lazy, feckless or didn't try at school. I disagree. If you spend your life working hard, following the laws of society, then you will get out of the poverty we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 People in general make bad decisions. But then they get castigated for them, and rightly so. Like Nigel Farage the other day you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 People in general make bad decisions. But then they get castigated for them, and rightly so. But castigating people doesn't solve anything. If we help them out of poverty then the next time the economy tanks there won't be riots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 I disagree. If you spend your life working hard, following the laws of society, then you will get out of the poverty we are talking about. It's a nice principle, but it just doesn't work in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Can we not do this please? People were not out rioting because they had mental health issues. Not directly, but even a mild anxiety or depressive personality can make "knuckling down" at school or work difficult and set someone on the road to poverty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 People are not poor, or in crap positions simply because they are lazy, feckless or didn't try at school. +1 it could easily be that at some point in history, my ancestors were lazy, feckless or didn't try at school. Stupid ancestors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 I disagree. If you spend your life working hard, following the laws of society, then you will get out of the poverty we are talking about. Jeffrey, you big softy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 But castigating people doesn't solve anything. If we help them out of poverty then the next time the economy tanks there won't be riots But that's it, all I am doing in castigating it. Others are defending it, saying that violence IS the right way to do it, and effectively that they were correct to do what they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 there are heroes on both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 It's a nice principle, but it just doesn't work in the real world. The problem is there are examples of those from inner city life that have worked hard and got themselves out of poverty, ****ing tons of them. What there isn't is examples of those that have worked hard and followed the law, but not got out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 But that's it, all I am doing in castigating it. Others are defending it, saying that violence IS the right way to do it, and effectively that they were correct to do what they did. It can be quite an effective way of getting people to sit up and take notice though, even if it is unfair on the people who lose property or are injured. I was in London at the time and it was pretty scary, plus a good friend of mine got badly beaten up. Yet I still can see it as a cry for help from people with no voice in society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 It can be quite an effective way of getting people to sit up and take notice though, even if it is unfair on the people who lose property or are injured. I was in London at the time and it was pretty scary, plus a good friend of mine got badly beaten up. Yet I still can see it as a cry for help from people with no voice in society I can see it as a cry for help, but that doesn't defend it? And dont forget, a lot of those rioting were just after a fun night out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 You're having a giraffe Jeff! I'm sure we can all think of friends / family that have done absolutely everything right to improve and sustain their lot but who, for reasons totally beyond their control, find themselves at rock bottom and unable to climb out of the pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Yet I still can see it as a cry for help from people with no voice in society All you have to do to get yourself a voice is register to vote and then use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Re-engage with the democratic process. It's really not difficult. The majority rules in democracy. As long as 75% of people are doing OK, the rest can get to **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 As if on cue I agree with Whitey Grandad. But apparently we are not allowed to express an opinion like that without being accused of indulging in tribal politics, even though I suspect his and my recollections go back rather further than yours, so we ought to be able to arrive at an opinion based on our own experience, shouldn't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Whether we like it or not there's an underclass that nobody gives a flying **** about, certainly not the labour party despite what they claim. The system is all about " managing" this 10% rather than trying to inspire them out of the cycle they are in. Its going to take generations and bucket loads of money to even lift them up one notch. You need to be very special to get yourself out of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 You're having a giraffe Jeff! I'm sure we can all think of friends / family that have done absolutely everything right to improve and sustain their lot but who, for reasons totally beyond their control, find themselves at rock bottom and unable to climb out of the pit. I genuinely don't. The only person I know on benefits hasn't worked a day in her life, and now her benefits have been cut she is at College doing a BTEC in carework and has been offered a job as soon as she finishes the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 The majority rules in democracy. As long as 75% of people are doing OK, the rest can get to **** Oh, so the minority should hold sway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 10 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 10 April, 2015 MP's just voted themselves a massive pay rise IPSA's been disbanded? When did that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 All you have to do to get yourself a voice is register to vote and then use it. So, if you are a committed Labour voter in a seat with a 30,000 Tory majority, does your vote count ? ( Or vice versa for balance ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Whether we like it or not there's an underclass that nobody gives a flying **** about, certainly not the labour party despite what they claim. The system is all about " managing" this 10% rather than trying to inspire them out of the cycle they are in. Its going to take generations and bucket loads of money to even lift them up one notch. You need to be very special to get yourself out of this. I'm confused, I actually agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 (edited) Oh, so the minority should hold sway? Don't really know what you're saying now. The point is that democracy fails those most in need, so sometimes they have to use other means to get heard. And they are the ones that most need to be heard, because their problems are most serious, and comfortable people forget what it's like outside their cosy environs Edited 10 April, 2015 by Ex Lion Tamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 The problem is there are examples of those from inner city life that have worked hard and got themselves out of poverty, ****ing tons of them. What there isn't is examples of those that have worked hard and followed the law, but not got out of it. Really? Are you seriously telling me there are no examples of people that have worked hard and not managed to lift themselves out of poverty? It's no wonder you don't understand how things like the riots if you think that is true. It's certainly not just a case of people wanting new ipads or trainers or whatever. It is funny though, it is estimated that 1800 years worth of jail time was handed out over the riots. Which were estimated to have caused £200-300m worth of damage. Banks cause £700b worth of damage to economy (that's just the bailouts), and they stay rich and not a day's jail time is dished out. But yeah, just work hard and life will be fair. PS: Like your avatar. You're much more attractive when you've had a shave. I guess that was for me? Ha thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Oh, so the minority should hold sway? Most Governments in the UK are elected with less than 50% of the electorate voting for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Most Governments in the UK are elected with less than 50% of the electorate voting for them. In 2005, Labour enjoyed a handsome majority of 67 seats on just 35 per cent of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 No, the MP's just voted themselves a massive pay rise so they didn't need to claim expenses, the bankers are just carrying on as usual and the tax evaders/avoiders will just move abroad of find another loophole. People with nothing to lose just smash sh!t up. MP's pay is controlled by the expenses watchdog and the MPs have no power to vote on it. The expenses watchdog that then decided to give the MPs a 10% pay rise which the MPs had no power to veto when the bad PR hit the fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 In 2005, Labour enjoyed a handsome majority of 67 seats on just 35 per cent of the vote. Exactly, contrary to Torres' post, the minority did indeed hold sway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Really? Are you seriously telling me there are no examples of people that have worked hard and not managed to lift themselves out of poverty? It's no wonder you don't understand how things like the riots if you think that is true. It's certainly not just a case of people wanting new ipads or trainers or whatever. It is funny though, it is estimated that 1800 years worth of jail time was handed out over the riots. Which were estimated to have caused £200-300m worth of damage. Banks cause £700b worth of damage to economy (that's just the bailouts), and they stay rich and not a day's jail time is dished out. But yeah, just work hard and life will be fair. I guess that was for me? Ha thanks. I'm not saying work hard and life will be fair, as life isn't. I'm not aware of any of those stostories, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying they don't exist, as of course there are always outliers, but I don't think there are plentiful examples of this. Agree on jail time over the banks btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Re-engage with the democratic process. It's really not difficult. LOL at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 MP's pay is controlled by the expenses watchdog and the MPs have no power to vote on it. The expenses watchdog that then decided to give the MPs a 10% pay rise which the MPs had no power to veto when the bad PR hit the fan. There should be a once off review to determine of how high or low in the pecking order of salaries we want MPs to be - I favour the same rate as a GP - and then just automatically match whatever pay increases GP get in the future. It would save the bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Whether we like it or not there's an underclass that nobody gives a flying **** about, certainly not the labour party despite what they claim. The system is all about " managing" this 10% rather than trying to inspire them out of the cycle they are in. Its going to take generations and bucket loads of money to even lift them up one notch. You need to be very special to get yourself out of this. You need to go back to the pub, you're speaking sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 Exactly, contrary to Torres' post, the minority did indeed hold sway. Yep, indeed in that same election, not one MP was returned with a majority of votes in his or her constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 10 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 10 April, 2015 There should be a once off review to determine of how high or low in the pecking order of salaries we want MPs to be - I favour the same rate as a GP - and then just automatically match whatever pay increases GP get in the future. It would save the bickering. Most GPs don't receive a public sector salary though; they're effectively self employed. So how would that work? Maybe we should 'privatise' MPs too...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 (edited) Most GPs don't receive a public sector salary though; they're effectively self employed. So how would that work? Maybe we should 'privatise' MPs too...? Blimey, learn something everyday. Surely they should be public employees on fixed term contracts which precludes outside paid work. Edit. I read that as "Most MPs". I knew about GPs, only around 20% of them are employees. Edited 10 April, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 10 April, 2015 Share Posted 10 April, 2015 You're having a giraffe Jeff! I'm sure we can all think of friends / family that have done absolutely everything right to improve and sustain their lot but who, for reasons totally beyond their control, find themselves at rock bottom and unable to climb out of the pit. He's not. I think he really is that indifferent/incapable of realising that there are people with such poor aptitude that they can't get anything, not even unskilled work, like project management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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