General Election 2015

[buctootim]

This "Island Mentality" thread is odd. I'm not sure what point people are trying to make but there are numerous central European countries with far greater right-wing, separatist leanings than the British. The fact that they have a contiguous land border and we don't is neither here nor there.

 

Does Front Nationale support Schengen?

 

 

You are missing the point - its not about the relative strength of right wing parties its about feeling part of a wider grouping - or feeling separate and different. Those with extensive land borders with other countries tend to feel more cooperative and similar to their neighbours than those with few or no borders. Its no coincidence that the Scandinavian countries feel close to each other but more distant from the EU - which why Iceland and Norway are out whilst Sweden and Denmark are in but dont have the euro

Edited 5 April, 2015 by buctootim

[Sour Mash]

You are missing the point - its not about the relative strength of right wing parties its about feeling part of a wider grouping - or feeling separate and different. Those with extensive land borders with other countries tend to feel more cooperative and similar to their neighbours than those with few or no borders. Its no coincidence that the Scandinavian countries feel close to each other but more distant from the EU - which why Iceland and Norway are out whilst Sweden and Denmark are in but dont have the euro

It's not to do with borders, it's to do with cultures, language etc. Scandinavians are close as they have similar cultures, similar reasons many Brits would feel closer to Aussies or Canadians than Greeks for example.

[buctootim]

It's not to do with borders, it's to do with cultures, language etc. Scandinavians are close as they have similar cultures, similar reasons many Brits would feel closer to Aussies or Canadians than Greeks for example.

 

Its partly culture for sure - but we also share bloodlines and language with the Aussies and Canadians, thats why the link is strong. Familiarity is also important. You feel more comfortable with next door neighbours than with people 10 doors away. The English arent particularly similar to the Scots or Welsh but most feel more comfortable with them than, say, the Dutch.

[Sour Mash]

Its partly culture for sure - but we also share bloodlines and language with the Aussies and Canadians, thats why the link is strong. Familiarity is also important. You feel more comfortable with next door neighbours than with people 10 doors away. The English arent particularly similar to the Scots or Welsh but most feel more comfortable with them than, say, the Dutch.

The English are very similar to the Scots and Welsh, you couldn't get much more similar. But it's not to do with borders, it's to do with cultures.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The English arent particularly similar to the Scots or Welsh but most feel more comfortable with them than, say, the Dutch.

 

What the hell are you on about, have you been drinking. Do you realise that England , Scotland and Wales are parts of the same country. People from Bavaria may feel more comfortable with people from Hamburg than from athens, is that their German island mentality ? And how is Cardiff particularly different from English cities.

[View From The Top]

I took the kids to Centre Parcs in Belgium this week. Drove through France, went to a theme park in the Netherlands and bought groceries in Germany - half the time without even realising you had crossed a border. The roads were full of vehicles of all countries. It made me realise again just how much our lack of a land border and Island mentality shapes, maybe warps, our sense of identity.

 

I've just come back as well. I love the chilled and laid back attitude and shared sense of being European. So much better than the insular & myopic view so many Brits have.

 

And before the anti-EU brigade start their usual tired old rants and thumping their keyboards I'm 100% in favour on an IN/OUT referendum and 100% wanting reform of the EU institutions.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I've just come back as well. I love the chilled and laid back attitude and shared sense of being European. So much better than the insular & myopic view so many Brits have.

 

.

 

Perhaps you will answer the question that Tim failed to answer. Do the Swiss have an " insular & myopic" view ? Do they not share this view of " being European "?

[pap]

I've just come back as well. I love the chilled and laid back attitude and shared sense of being European. So much better than the insular & myopic view so many Brits have.

 

And before the anti-EU brigade start their usual tired old rants and thumping their keyboards I'm 100% in favour on an IN/OUT referendum and 100% wanting reform of the EU institutions.

 

Thing is, without anyone pushing for reform, where is it going to come from?

 

What sets the process of democratic reform off? Labour aren't even offering a referendum, so no real pressure from them. Cameron gets laughed off the continent every time he tries broaching the issue. The Lib Dems, once cast-iron guarantors of an in/out referendum, are now "the party of in". The Greens are offering a referendum, but how would an EU watcher break down the composition of those voting Green?

 

I'm in agreement with your point that Brits can be myopic and insular, but in their defence, the EU has never been sold straight to the European public. The only thing the British public ever signed up to was involvement in an economic treaty. We're way past that now. The EU is in effect, a federal state without a democratically elected executive, and it probably rather likes it that way.

 

What will any British party be able to do to get it to reform itself?

[CB Fry]

Perhaps you will answer the question that Tim failed to answer. Do the Swiss have an " insular & myopic" view ? Do they not share this view of " being European "?

Your vision for Britain is to ape Switzerland? Gee.

 

Maybe you should just move to Jersey and have done with it. You can revel in low tax irrelevance for the rest of your days. Low levels of "negroes" too.

[whelk]

Doesn't this happen in the same old news cycle albeit every 5 years. As predictable as the Daily Express having a cure for arthritis every 14 days. Or 5 steps to living longer which amounts to having an early night, going for a walk and eating some veg.

 

although Telegraph seems to do little to disguise as little more than a Tory press release vehicle of late. Don't think many of its readership are undecided other than UKIP or Tory.

 

Didn't have to wait long

[pap]

I see Blair is saying things again today. FFS, Labour. Shut him up unless you can get him to the right fking venue.

 

[trousers]

Labour wheeling out Blair? Excellent news

[pap]

Labour wheeling out Blair? Excellent news

Not even trying to win, are they?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Not even trying to win, are they?

 

Why are Labour sabotaging this election for themselves, they could be out of sight by now.

[trousers]

Why are Labour sabotaging this election for themselves, they could be out of sight by now.

 

Because they realise they'd become even more unpopular (amongst their 'traditional' support base) when in power due to the amount of rationalisation (aka "cuts") they've signed up to....?

[pap]

Why are Labour sabotaging this election for themselves, they could be out of sight by now.

 

Well, the popular theory, advanced by a few on here, is that it isn't a good time to be in government. The Conservatives don't really give a toss about whether they are "liked" or not; they know they've got certain sections of the electorate locked up, or at least not voting Labour.

 

I do know that Tony Blair is one of the most divisive figures ever to be associated with the party. He won't help.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well, the popular theory, advanced by a few on here, is that it isn't a good time to be in government. The Conservatives don't really give a toss about whether they are "liked" or not; they know they've got certain sections of the electorate locked up, or at least not voting Labour.

 

I do know that Tony Blair is one of the most divisive figures ever to be associated with the party. He won't help.

 

Perhaps - may be why they voted for Ed ahead of David in the first place.

[pap]

Perhaps - may be why they voted for Ed ahead of David in the first place.

 

I'd say that was more about rejecting someone so closely tied with the previous era. David was very much the bloke much of the Parliamentary party wanted, but the unions had other ideas.

[trousers]

Blair's speech: "The reasons for staying in the EU are compelling, which is why we shouldn't have a referendum".

 

Erm, if what he says is true then surely the risk (to those wanting to stay) in holding a referendum is negligible...? #rhetoricalquestion

 

Some contorted logic there from Mr Blair me thinks.

[CB Saint]

Blair's speech: "The reasons for staying in the EU are compelling, which is why we shouldn't have a referendum".

 

Erm, if what he says is true then surely the risk (to those wanting to stay) in holding a referendum is negligible...? #rhetoricalquestion

 

Some contorted logic there from Mr Blair me thinks.

 

Effectively he is saying that the British electorate is collectively too stupid to make such an important decision that will affect us for the rest of our lives.

 

How about you present the facts (and I mean facts) without spin or sexing them up and maybe, just maybe, we might get it right.

 

Does anyone one still like / respect this man?

[View From The Top]

Effectively he is saying that the British electorate is collectively too stupid to make such an important decision that will affect us for the rest of our lives.

 

How about you present the facts (and I mean facts) without spin or sexing them up and maybe, just maybe, we might get it right.

 

Does anyone one still like / respect this man?

 

No, he's a war criminal.

[Coxford_lou]

 

Does anyone one still like / respect this man?

 

Yes, absolutely.

[Viking Warrior]

Bliar the champions people .

Milliband and balls must be desperate to get Bliar to speak on their behalf

 

What did the liar he do for the Uk Sent our troops out to Iraq for an illegal war . With many of our troops coming home in body bags

Oh giving a free from prosecution pass to many murdering ira scum . Yet seeking to prosecute British service personnel

 

And how much did his government spend on Bloody Sunday enquiries

And I haven't even started on the massive debt his government racked up

[Batman]

god, Labour getting a bashing by Andrew Neill at the mo by their bizarre attack on the coalition and the NHS, specifically GPs

 

the labour spokesman is all over the place

 

countered by the idea that Blair involved adds 'stardust' to the campaign

I voted for blair before and I think that was a huge mistake. I really think history will look back at him in a very bad way...rightly so

[View From The Top]

Blair's speech: "The reasons for staying in the EU are compelling, which is why we shouldn't have a referendum".

 

Erm, if what he says is true then surely the risk (to those wanting to stay) in holding a referendum is negligible...? #rhetoricalquestion

 

Some contorted logic there from Mr Blair me thinks.

 

I'm very much pro-European but want a root and branch reform of the EU and I certainly want a simple IN/OUT referendum, the country deserves it regardless of what side on the debate you stand.

[View From The Top]

god, Labour getting a bashing by Andrew Neill at the mo by their bizarre attack on the coalition and the NHS, specifically GPs

 

the labour spokesman is all over the place

 

countered by the idea that Blair involved adds 'stardust' to the campaign

I voted for blair before and I think that was a huge mistake. I really think history will look back at him in a very bad way...rightly so

 

But it won't change a thing. The tories & Labour are still going to fail to win an outright majority. Bar a few, everyone is already decided. I've come across very few undecided.

 

The biggest surprise to me is how many coppers are voting Labour. I never thought I'd see "The Party Of Law & Order" lose their support.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I'm very much pro-European but want a root and branch reform of the EU and I certainly want a simple IN/OUT referendum, the country deserves it regardless of what side on the debate you stand.

 

Only one way you'll get that...

[pap]

Yes, absolutely.

 

Ha. I get to strongly disagree with Lou about something.

 

He was an evil f**king poodle that cosied up to the closest thing the US have ever got to fascists. His unconditional support for the war plans of the neoconservatives, including lying to his own Parliament and people, enabled the death of over a million human beings.

 

His legacy is a Middle Eastern region racked with sectarianism, suicide bombings and a ready supply of legitimate extremists for the foreseeable future, on account of their relatives being blown up for US/UK imperialist interests.

 

Discuss.

[View From The Top]

Only one way you'll get that...

 

Green. It's been their policy for years.

 

I'll vote Labour though as our local tory MP isn't a local and is an utter knob.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Green. It's been their policy for years.

 

I'll vote Labour though as our local tory MP isn't a local and is an utter knob.

 

Forgot about Green. Local MP is a massive draw on voting - not sure why the parties don't concentrate more on their local performance.

[Batman]

Forgot about Green. Local MP is a massive draw on voting - not sure why the parties don't concentrate more on their local performance.

 

because we want TV debates with leaders and ones who do not want to get involved, get slated in the national press.

we will drift more towards a presidential debate more than we already are

 

Just now on telly, they were discussing the image problems of miliband v cameron.

[Coxford_lou]

Ha. I get to strongly disagree with Lou about something.

 

He was an evil f**king poodle that cosied up to the closest thing the US have ever got to fascists. His unconditional support for the war plans of the neoconservatives, including lying to his own Parliament and people, enabled the death of over a million human beings.

 

His legacy is a Middle Eastern region racked with sectarianism, suicide bombings and a ready supply of legitimate extremists for the foreseeable future, on account of their relatives being blown up for US/UK imperialist interests.

 

Discuss.

 

Much as I'd love to get involved in another heated emotionally charged Blair conversation (and they always are very emotionally charged) I think I'll pass on this opportunity. As I've learned over the years, it's not a conversation that will have a positive outcome, or be pleasurable in any shape or form.

 

I answered the question because I didn't want to leave it unanswered. But I don't want to engage any deeper than that, particularly with people who refer to him as "Bliar" or "an evil f*cking poodle"

 

No offence intended.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

because we want TV debates with leaders and ones who do not want to get involved, get slated in the national press.

we will drift more towards a presidential debate more than we already are

 

Just now on telly, they were discussing the image problems of miliband v cameron.

 

Gormless v Smug. Which is worse?

[Colinjb]

Forgot about Green. Local MP is a massive draw on voting - not sure why the parties don't concentrate more on their local performance.

 

Quite. Despite the Lib Dem's disastrous 5 years in bed with the Conservatives Jackie Porter is extremely popular around Winchester, Kings Worthy in particular. Wouldn't be surprised if Steve Brine has a close call in this election.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Much as I'd love to get involved in another heated emotionally charged Blair conversation (and they always are very emotionally charged) I think I'll pass on this opportunity. As I've learned over the years, it's not a conversation that will have a positive outcome, or be pleasurable in any shape or form.

 

I answered the question because I didn't want to leave it unanswered. But I don't want to engage any deeper than that, particularly with people who refer to him as "Bliar" or "an evil f*cking poodle"

 

No offence intended.

 

We can discuss it this evening if you would like

 

Couldn't think of anything worse myself.

[Batman]

Quite. Despite the Lib Dem's disastrous 5 years in bed with the Conservatives Jackie Porter is extremely popular around Winchester, Kings Worthy in particular. Wouldn't be surprised if Steve Brine has a close call in this election.

 

why is it disastrous..?

got to implement some of their policies. I think it has worked quite well considering their differences on many things.

[pap]

Much as I'd love to get involved in another heated emotionally charged Blair conversation (and they always are very emotionally charged) I think I'll pass on this opportunity. As I've learned over the years, it's not a conversation that will have a positive outcome, or be pleasurable in any shape or form.

 

I answered the question because I didn't want to leave it unanswered. But I don't want to engage any deeper than that, particularly with people who refer to him as "Bliar" or "an evil f*cking poodle"

 

No offence intended.

 

Fair enough, but I think "evil f**king poodle" and "Bliar" are entirely fair game.

 

One million people dead on his say so. Fair enough, I'm sure that the US would have got some other soft f**ker to say yes. It really didn't need to be us.

[Coxford_lou]

We can discuss it this evening if you would like

 

Couldn't think of anything worse myself.

 

Ha. Oh my god no. Worse topic of conversation than Cameron loving, or UKIP loving

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Quite. Despite the Lib Dem's disastrous 5 years in bed with the Conservatives Jackie Porter is extremely popular around Winchester, Kings Worthy in particular. Wouldn't be surprised if Steve Brine has a close call in this election.

 

Didn't think they have done that badly, acted well to reign in the righter wing Tory policies. The only thing they lost out on that everyone lost their **** on was the tuition fees, which I still can't understand why everyone got so angry about it, but that's just me.

[aintforever]

Quite. Despite the Lib Dem's disastrous 5 years in bed with the Conservatives Jackie Porter is extremely popular around Winchester, Kings Worthy in particular. Wouldn't be surprised if Steve Brine has a close call in this election.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Lib Dem's vote holds up in the right leaning areas, it's where left wing voters chose them over Labour last time that their partnership with the Tories would have gone down badly.

 

They won the bi-election in Eastleigh despite the coalition.

[pap]

People are angry with the Lib Dems over tuition fees for three reasons.

 

1) They lied at the time.

2) They lied again, when they tried to make out they only meant it in the event of a majority government

3) It's more universal than people think, píssing off existing students and parents with aspirations for their kids.

 

Mostly though, it's the lies and the fact that people remember stuff.

 

Edited 7 April, 2015 by pap

[Colinjb]

why is it disastrous..?

got to implement some of their policies. I think it has worked quite well considering their differences on many things.

 

From a PR perspective it's been awful for them, the floating support that look to them as an alternative has been largely left disillusioned by them involving themselves with those nasty, evil Tories.

 

I completely agree with you about how the two parties have worked together but sadly, all this coalition has shown is many people's ignorance of how these things actually work. Having a sway on policy doesn't mean you get everything you want, you just have a proportional influence in the coalition.

[View From The Top]

From a PR perspective it's been awful for them, the floating support that look to them as an alternative has been largely left disillusioned by them involving themselves with those nasty, evil Tories.

 

I completely agree with you about how the two parties have worked together but sadly, all this coalition has shown is many people's ignorance of how these things actually work. Having a sway on policy doesn't mean you get everything you want, you just have a proportional influence in the coalition.

 

My wife and many of our friends voted Lib Dem last time around. They won't vote for them again for 2 simple reasons; they lied about tuition fees & they got into bed with the tories.

 

Nothing to do with ignorance but with feeling betrayed.

[Colinjb]

My wife and many of our friends voted Lib Dem last time around. They won't vote for them again for 2 simple reasons; they lied about tuition fees & they got into bed with the tories.

 

Nothing to do with ignorance but with feeling betrayed.

 

Because they let go one of the policies that had been latched onto by their voters in order to stand a chance at influencing further policies, surely that must have been considered as a possibility? These are politicians after all, regardless of their banner if there is a chance for power of some sort they will grab it.

 

It will happen again at this election, a minority partner in a coalition will make a compromise and will be castigated for it. Will be very interesting to see how they learn from the Lib Dem's mistakes.

Edited 7 April, 2015 by Colinjb

[Wes Tender]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Lib Dem's vote holds up in the right leaning areas, it's where left wing voters chose them over Labour last time that their partnership with the Tories would have gone down badly.

 

They won the bi-election in Eastleigh despite the coalition.

 

A bye-election is hardly a good barometer of how the General Election might pan out. A few more days of campaigning would probably have seen UKIP take the seat. The turnout was down by 12,000, the Lib-Dem vote fell by 11,624 votes and their share went down from nearly a half of the votes to just under a third. The Conservative vote went down 10,543 and of course the UKIP vote increased massively.

 

Labour just weren't a viable alternative as a mid-term protest vote, the electorate's memory of the mess that they created being still too fresh in their minds. How the voting will change because it is a General Election will be interesting with a much higher turnout. Labour will again be seen as having no chance of winning the seat, so how the protest votes pan out remains to be seen in the light of the pact between the Conservatives and Lib Dems following the last election.

[buctootim]

Because they let go one of the policies that had been latched onto by their voters in order to stand a chance at influencing further policies, surely that must have been considered as a possibility? These are politicians after all, regardless of their banner if there is a chance for power of some sort they will grab it.

 

It will happen again at this election, a minority partner in a coalition will make a compromise and will be castigated for it. Will be very interesting to see how they learn from the Lib Dem's mistakes.

 

Agree with this. In any coalition both (all) partners aren't going to get everything they want, inevitably there is horse trading. The Lib Dems have had a positive moderating effect on this government. Their problem is that where their influence has been exerted its attributed to the Conservatives as being more caring than billed, whilst they are castigated for selling out on other policies. People say they want politics with less spin, but then lap up the media gloss without looking at the actual facts.

Edited 7 April, 2015 by buctootim

[Batman]

From a PR perspective it's been awful for them, the floating support that look to them as an alternative has been largely left disillusioned by them involving themselves with those nasty, evil Tories.

 

I completely agree with you about how the two parties have worked together but sadly, all this coalition has shown is many people's ignorance of how these things actually work. Having a sway on policy doesn't mean you get everything you want, you just have a proportional influence in the coalition.

isnt that a huge step to what many apparently want?

 

when they get it, moan that they cant keep every promise?

[trousers]

People are angry with the Lib Dems over tuition fees for three reasons.

 

1) They lied at the time.

2) They lied again, when they tried to make out they only meant it in the event of a majority government

3) It's more universal than people think, píssing off existing students and parents with aspirations for their kids.

 

Mostly though, it's the lies and the fact that people remember stuff.

 

 

Yet, despite all the mouth-frothing, what we've ended up with is a progressive 'graduate tax' whereby those who earn more pay more for their tuition, and the majority of graduates will never have to pay back anywhere near the full "debt". So, the Lib Dems inadvertently stuck to their pledge of introducing a fairer alternative (to what was in place before)....

 

And not forgetting that Labour's headline grabbing £3,000 reduction will only benefit the wealthiest graduates.

Edited 7 April, 2015 by trousers

[buctootim]

Yet, despite all the mouth-frothing, what we've ended up with is a progressive 'graduate tax' whereby those who earn more pay more for their tuition, and the majority of graduates will never have to pay back anywhere near the full "debt". So, the Lib Dems inadvertently stuck to their pledge of introducing a fairer alternative (to what was in place before)....

 

And not forgetting that Labour's headline grabbing £3,000 reduction will only benefit the wealthiest graduates.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Blair's speech: "The reasons for staying in the EU are compelling, which is why we shouldn't have a referendum".

 

Erm, if what he says is true then surely the risk (to those wanting to stay) in holding a referendum is negligible...? #rhetoricalquestion

 

Some contorted logic there from Mr Blair me thinks.

 

This is the line spouted by that nutter Polly Toynbee . On " Any Questions" she said that that EU membership was so important to the UK that it shouldn't be put to a vote in case the answer is OUT. Its basically the establishment's policy, and at least she and Blair actually say it instead of giving us a load of pony. Cameron's offer of a referendum was purely for party political purposes, and now he needs a Wilson type blag to pull it off.

 

The Tories have brought this all on themselves . Maastricht changed the relationship between the EU & UK and we should have had a vote then. The stupid thing is they would probably have won one easily then. The establishment don't seem to understanding that the longer they hold off a vote , the more resentment will build.