trousers Posted 1 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 1 April, 2015 You are on here all day. You have the time to qualify your points. Canada. Sounds like a good model to me.... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada "Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Where someone has the disposable income to cover it. How much per month should they have as disposable income? How do you decide if they have enough disposable income? What outgoings should be factored in to decide as to whether you have enough disposable income? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Healthcare should be free at point of contact for everyone, rich and poor. Let's not lower ourselves, just because "no other country does it" shouldn't mean we should follow suit. Go live in Ireland and pay 80 quid every time you have an ear infection or you need to get a lump checked, you'd soon get fed up with it. Completely agree, and I think people underestimate the amount of soft power it confers on a nation. Countries living to those principles are well perceived by others. I've seen a lot of southern US jaws drop when I tell them how our system works. Most of them think its amazing. Going back to the idea of having employers do healthcare, that happens a lot in the US, and my belief is that it is ultimately counter-productive. Many of these firms operate their redundancy policies on a seniority basis, so you end up with an unproductive aging workforce, slow to understand new processes and technology, hanging on for dear life because they know they're knackered without their health plan. Of course, many of these people will have developed age-related health conditions, so the policies get used and the premiums go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Or the people that like to feel that. For me, if you are left wing and have any disposable income at the end of the month that you aren't giving to charity/those less fortunate then you are verging on hypocrisy. Or is it okay to be a bit selfish, just not Tory selfish? You actually typed that out. Blimey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Sounds like a good model to me.... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada "Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities." Many of our services are provided through private entities, so I'm entirely unsurprised to see that Canada has more private saturation, what with its vicinity to those market-seeking companies to the South. FWIW, though, I really don't agree that private provision is the way to go. The private sector isn't inherently more efficient than the public sector, even if that has been "true" in practice. This country has just been very poorly managed for decades, the idea of NHS as a burden has been allowed to germinate, and been entirely watered by the Conservative-led government, as I predicted it would be four years ago. Continual stories about some failing NHS institution or another, with the eventual charge of the "inherently efficient" private sector. It's the same old trick they do with every public thing they want to sell. De-fund it, creating problems that show the institutions to be dysfunctional and actually cost more dosh (agency nurses, etc) than funding it in the first place would have cost, creating budgetary black-holes that add further weight to the argument that it should be sold off. People fall for it every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Many of our services are provided through private entities, so I'm entirely unsurprised to see that Canada has more private saturation, what with its vicinity to those market-seeking companies to the South. FWIW, though, I really don't agree that private provision is the way to go. The private sector isn't inherently more efficient than the public sector, even if that has been "true" in practice. This country has just been very poorly managed for decades, the idea of NHS as a burden has been allowed to germinate, and been entirely watered by the Conservative-led government, as I predicted it would be four years ago. Continual stories about some failing NHS institution or another, with the eventual charge of the "inherently efficient" private sector. It's the same old trick they do with every public thing they want to sell. De-fund it, creating problems that show the institutions to be dysfunctional and actually cost more dosh (agency nurses, etc) than funding it in the first place would have cost, creating budgetary black-holes that add further weight to the argument that it should be sold off. People fall for it every time. The Tories don't have a monopoly on perpetuating myths..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 The Tories don't have a monopoly on perpetuating myths..... I'm talking about both sides of the house. PFI in particular is a spectacularly bad idea. Infrastructure on the never never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Sounds like a good model to me.... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada "Health care in Canada is delivered through a publicly funded health care system, which is mostly free at the point of use and has most services provided by private entities." Many years ago it was reported that, as soon as Canada moved from public to private (or quasi private) healthcare, the incidence of gall bladder removal increased dramatically. More Canadians suddenly developing gall bladder problems or more surgeons seeing they could up their incomes by undertaking (perhaps) unnecessary procedures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 How much per month should they have as disposable income? How do you decide if they have enough disposable income? What outgoings should be factored in to decide as to whether you have enough disposable income? Basics, food, shelter, heating. In my opinion if you have over £1000 disposable income after those then you can afford a private healthcare plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Many years ago it was reported that, as soon as Canada moved from public to private (or quasi private) healthcare, the incidence of gall bladder removal increased dramatically. More Canadians suddenly developing gall bladder problems or more surgeons seeing they could up their incomes by undertaking (perhaps) unnecessary procedures? Pap suggested it, not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Basics, food, shelter, heating. In my opinion if you have over £1000 disposable income after those then you can afford a private healthcare plan. In other words, people who earn more could pay more tax to fund healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 You are on here all day. You have the time to qualify your points. Canada. I spend too much time on here already. France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 In other words, people who earn more could pay more tax to fund healthcare. Jeff is having a complete nightmare on this one. The past couple of pages have been an amusing read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 I should have pointed out that I've spent a lot of time in the US as well where I would be uninsurable.....until Obamacare of course but then privatisation of such healthcare systems is currently being shown to be as bad as state-owned. But yes, unless I walked into a hospital at the point of death (of which, even in the US they'd have to treat me.....but they'd riffle through my accounts to make sure I couldn't afford it). But no; I should really chuckle at Nick Clegg's seat looking dodgy at the minute as well as the Lib Dem's offer of assistance in another coalition. Surely even Tory voters must have an inkling that they'll not have enough MP's to do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Basics, food, shelter, heating. In my opinion if you have over £1000 disposable income after those then you can afford a private healthcare plan. Is a car a basic? What about 2 cars? How much are you allowed to spend on food before it stops being basic? How long or how high can you have the heating on for before it's a mere luxury? What if I take on a bigger mortgage for a bigger house that I don't really need have I then broken the rules as the basics for shelter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 (edited) I'd like to see Jeff's reaction to a story that said a Labour government would means test every household in Britain to establish whether or not they meet the £1,000 disposable income threshold to be removed from accessing the NHS. Sounds awfully like the kind of big government, we-tell-you-how-to-spend-your-money nanny-state intervention you'd think he would disapprove of. I wonder if the in-no-way-right-wing Daily Telegraph would run one of their in-no-way-right-wing front pages on it. Edited 1 April, 2015 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Jeff for PM. He has solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 (edited) Basics, food, shelter, heating. In my opinion if you have over £1000 disposable income after those then you can afford a private healthcare plan. What if your income, or a significant part thereof, is a pension ? Edited 1 April, 2015 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Is a car a basic? What about 2 cars? How much are you allowed to spend on food before it stops being basic? How long or how high can you have the heating on for before it's a mere luxury? What if I take on a bigger mortgage for a bigger house that I don't really need have I then broken the rules as the basics for shelter? By the way, I didn't say it was a legal obligation, I said moral... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 What if your income is a pension ? Don't know. This isn't a policy, just an opinion that if you have a decent disposable income you should pay for private healthcare to take the burden off the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 If we are promoting healthy living will the costs of my children's swimming lessons and football and cricket costs be included under basics or are healthy living/sports options to come under luxuries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 In other words, people who earn more could pay more tax to fund healthcare. No, because i think you should get something in return, you pay for private healthcare and you tend to get a better service, whereas through taxation you get no additional benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 If we are promoting healthy living will the costs of my children's swimming lessons and football and cricket costs be included under basics or are healthy living/sports options to come under luxuries? In relation to what? Paying for your own healthcare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 No, because i think you should get something in return, you pay for private healthcare and you tend to get a better service, whereas through taxation you get no additional benefit. You would get something in return, you would get the satisfaction of knowing you helped your friends, neighbours and countrymen get good quality healthcare. That's what a decent person would want no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 In relation to what? Paying for your own healthcare? My means tested disposable income. Will my kids sports be allowed or are they luxuries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 No, because i think you should get something in return, you pay for private healthcare and you tend to get a better service, whereas through taxation you get no additional benefit. With private healthcare you get LIMITED care - until the money runs out. With NHS care you get care as long as it's needed regardless of means. With private healthcare you get NO emergency treatment. With NHS care you get emergency treatment, even if it's to put right botched private healthcare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Anyone with enough disposable income already pays for private healthcare anyway don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 You would get something in return, you would get the satisfaction of knowing you helped your friends, neighbours and countrymen get good quality healthcare. That's what a decent person would want no? But I don't currently, as it's not something you notice. You can't see the tax you pay going into a specific services. I get more satisfaction from the fiver of food In put in the food 'trolleys' at Tesco every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 My means tested disposable income. Will my kids sports be allowed or are they luxuries? As said it's a moral obligation I feel people should have. If you don't think you can afford it then fine, but it's based on your conscience and what you feel you can spend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Anyone with enough disposable income already pays for private healthcare anyway don't they? Why do you say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 But I don't currently, as it's not something you notice. You can't see the tax you pay going into a specific services. I get more satisfaction from the fiver of food In put in the food 'trolleys' at Tesco every week. However, you might well derive enormous relief if your mother, like mine, 'cost' the NHS £30K a year for her cancer treatment to keep her alive. Money she couldn't have found herself (even with help from her family). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 As said it's a moral obligation I feel people should have. If you don't think you can afford it then fine, but it's based on your conscience and what you feel you can spend. Ah right, a policy based on paying what you think you can afford. Can see that working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Why do you say that? Well for a family subscription, BUPA is £218 a month. Anyone with enough disposable income to cover that amount will probably go and pay it. Leave the NHS for the rest of the population who probably can't justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Don't know. This isn't a policy, just an opinion that if you have a decent disposable income you should pay for private healthcare to take the burden off the state. either we have the nhs or we don't. If i earn a lot of money, then I am paying 40% or 45% tax. Isn't that enough? Should I have to pay even more to access healthcare? In essence, what you are suggesting is the income tax rates are too low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Ah right, a policy based on paying what you think you can afford. Can see that working. Have you read any of my posts about this? I never said it was a policy, I said I think morally people should pay for private healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Private healthcare isn't taking the burden off the state for a number of reasons: The NHS pays for healthcare training. Private healthcare only takes on qualified medical staff - it offers no real training. Private healthcare is very risk averse and rarely takes on complicated treatment. It tends, in the main, to concentrate on eyes, hips and knees and cosmetic surgery. When private healthcare goes wrong, the NHS has to undertake corrective treatment - often at great expense (think silicon implants as a starter for 10) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 However, you might well derive enormous relief if your mother, like mine, 'cost' the NHS £30K a year for her cancer treatment to keep her alive. Money she couldn't have found herself (even with help from her family). And I have no problem with that? I never said those that couldn't afford it shouldn't have access to free healthcare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Well for a family subscription, BUPA is £218 a month. Anyone with enough disposable income to cover that amount will probably go and pay it. Leave the NHS for the rest of the population who probably can't justify it. And that's my point. I think everyone should. However, I would say a number of people, even on this thread, don't even though they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Ah right, a policy based on paying what you think you can afford. Can see that working. I think it's a policy that already exists in that people are already free to make the decision to pay for private healthcare if the feel they can afford it. But other than that, it's pretty groundbreaking stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 either we have the nhs or we don't. If i earn a lot of money, then I am paying 40% or 45% tax. Isn't that enough? Should I have to pay even more to access healthcare? In essence, what you are suggesting is the income tax rates are too low. Well, the 45% rate is too low. I think healthcare should be free for those who can't afford private healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Private healthcare isn't taking the burden off the state for a number of reasons: The NHS pays for healthcare training. Private healthcare only takes on qualified medical staff - it offers no real training. Private healthcare is very risk averse and rarely takes on complicated treatment. It tends, in the main, to concentrate on eyes, hips and knees and cosmetic surgery. When private healthcare goes wrong, the NHS has to undertake corrective treatment - often at great expense (think silicon implants as a starter for 10) Fair enough. All I am trying to do is come up with a way to ease the burden on the NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 And that's my point. I think everyone should. However, I would say a number of people, even on this thread, don't even though they could. Taking it to a logical conclusion - maybe everyone should pay for a private fire service, police service, rubbish collection service, etc. etc. if they can afford it too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 Taking it to a logical conclusion - maybe everyone should pay for a private fire service, police service, rubbish collection service, etc. etc. if they can afford it too? Not sure fire, police etc would work as well. Schools though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 I actually work with a former NHS financial officer and he reckons it's totally wrong that the NHS is in general losing money or not providing an efficient service. He blames a lot of it down to the segmented way it's funded. In that the Southampton University Trust made quite a profit last year where as a few trusts didn't but it's those that get in the news. Either way, as my old mum says: "all these private doctors are trained by the NHS anyway" which is true but that's because our system is a reverse of the US's in that the private sector is tiny compared to the huge NHS. But I am not happy about the creepy privatisation of the NHS started by Blair's PFI scheme (What I don't want whilst waiting for an x-ray in the general is to hear a couple of Siemen's exec's talking about "Added revenue streams out of national healthcare". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 1 April, 2015 Share Posted 1 April, 2015 I always find it strange that any mention of privatising the health service or making vast amounts of money via private provision , always seems to overlook doctors role in this . Mrs duck needed a non emergency op . Without going in to too many details , it wasn't that big a deal , but it was bothering her . She saw a nhs specialist and was given a date about 10 months away . It was really getting her down , so being the modern metrosexual hubby I am , I said " I'll pay for it" . Rang up and was quoted £250 for initial consultation , then about 3k plus cost of drugs for procedure ( if memory serves ) . Went to the initial consultation and was seen by the same specialist we'd been seeing on nhs . Yet doctors representatives will in in the forefront of " save our nhs" campaigns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarniaSaint Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Did not realize the NHS in the UK was such a mess............here in Ontario there is universal care now paid from the general revenue .......and the Canada Health Act mandates that there is no private health care......... And there are World Class hospitals here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 The big issue that none of our politicians are taking about at the moment is that the NHS in England is facing a funding shortfall of up to £54bn by 2021-22. Even if planned efficiency measures are successful, then this will only be reduced to at best around £30bn. Our ageing population is changing everything. We either need to accept paying more tax to fund a free health service or accept radical changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 MIlliband came across pretty well here I thought. 15 min interview but light stuff as would expect on Absolute Radio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Did not realize the NHS in the UK was such a mess............here in Ontario there is universal care now paid from the general revenue .......and the Canada Health Act mandates that there is no private health care......... And there are World Class hospitals here That's the point, across the UK it isn't. Small pockets are. Also Lord Duckhunter, yeah that's fine for a one off op but for chronically sick people it wouldn't be. I know what you mean though as I've spoken to my Neurosurgeon whilst he was on the job in a Bupa hospital. But the only real doctors that really profit from private healthcare at the minute are consultants who have a separate contract with the NHS anyhow. And Ex Lion Tamer, again, the shortfall is only specific to certain areas as it would be almost impossible to get that figure from every segmented trust as a whole. But not to sound too right wing....It's never been "free" that's what brings these eastern European types over in numbers.........someone has always had to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Did not realize the NHS in the UK was such a mess............here in Ontario there is universal care now paid from the general revenue .......and the Canada Health Act mandates that there is no private health care......... And there are World Class hospitals here you have the benefit of a balanced budget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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