General Election 2015

[Whitey Grandad]

Yeah, alright. Petrol is optional. Gas and electricity is optional. The food chain is optional. The hellish South West Trains season ticket is optional.

 

I am glad you have finally seen the light and have become a self-sustainability specialist.

 

Petrol cost is mostly duty and VAT, the profit element is very small.

 

Energy has several suppliers but would be cheaper without the green subsidy.

 

Food can be a lot cheaper if you avoid the supermarkets and are prepared to do a little work on it.

 

SWT is entirely optional.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Petrol cost is mostly duty and VAT, the profit element is very small.

 

Energy has several suppliers but would be cheaper without the green subsidy.

 

Food can be a lot cheaper if you avoid the supermarkets and are prepared to do a little work on it.

 

SWT is entirely optional.

 

I wish it was as entirely optional...

[pap]

Petrol cost is mostly duty and VAT, the profit element is very small.

 

Energy has several suppliers but would be cheaper without the green subsidy.

 

Food can be a lot cheaper if you avoid the supermarkets and are prepared to do a little work on it.

 

SWT is entirely optional.

The point is that many essentials, and money that used to go back into the exchequer's hands, are now entirely in the hands of the private sector and that things we all depend on day to day, such as sustenance, are too,

 

The oft-propagated idea that the private sector is some cost-neutral entity which has no bearing on the taxpayer is nonsense. That's where the rest of our money goes, all of it, if we continue down the privatisation track.

[Whitey Grandad]

I wish it was as entirely optional...

 

I mean optional in the sense that commuting is optional. I'm sure that the cost of travel would have been considered in deciding where to work and where to live.

[Whitey Grandad]

The point is that many essentials, and money that used to go back into the exchequer's hands, are now entirely in the hands of the private sector and that things we all depend on day to day, such as sustenance, are too,

 

The oft-propagated idea that the private sector is some cost-neutral entity which has no bearing on the taxpayer is nonsense. That's where the rest of our money goes, all of it, if we continue down the privatisation track.

 

Indeed, you're quite right, it's just that the public sector has no concept of controlling costs. The rise of Lido and Aldi shows that prices can be reduced if competition is allowed.

 

Rail privatisation is another issue though, I have understood how this was supposed to improve things. As now-gone MP David Price used to say 'How can you have competition when one train can't overtake another?'

Edited 9 May, 2015 by Whitey Grandad

[Hockey_saint]

They are not 'savage cuts' they are only taking us back to the levels of a few years ago. They are cuts in increases.

 

That's not true. Legal aid has been about since before labour got into power in 97. Disability Living Allowance was created by the conservatives. The cuts go much further than simply restoring what was there before. The Independent Living Fund was created by the tories for social inclusion of those severly disabled which is being removed. They spent billions of an IT system called universal jobsmatch which has been an utter failure. If it was just about redressing the balance I would agree with you.

[badgerx16]

They are not 'savage cuts' they are only taking us back to the levels of a few years ago. They are cuts in increases.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30524122

 

[badgerx16]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/19/councils-risk-financial-failure-auditors

 

"As the government pushes ahead with funding cuts of more than a third in local government, the National Audit Office said many single-tier and county councils feared for core services including education and social care."

[Whitey Grandad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30524122

 

 

Local authorities are a poor example of financial responsibility. Just take a look at the salaries of the fat-cat executives and the staffing levels over the last twenty years or so and try to justify that.

[badgerx16]

Local authorities are a poor example of financial responsibility. Just take a look at the salaries of the fat-cat executives and the staffing levels over the last twenty years or so and try to justify that.

 

Dont believe the hype. ( Or the Hypo ).

 

As for staffing levels, one local authority up here is reducing by approx 300 jobs each year - this is the 3rd financial year of this and will at least follow into the next. How many of those do you think were / are 'fat cats' ? ( And remembr, this year I'm one of those 300, so I'm don't appreciate some of the b0ll0x that gets propagated ).

[Hockey_saint]

Local authorities are a poor example of financial responsibility. Just take a look at the salaries of the fat-cat executives and the staffing levels over the last twenty years or so and try to justify that.

 

Really? Is that the official excuse for this? When fat cats (otherwise known as mates of George and Dave) are currently lording it on huge pay packets from formerly nationalised industries?

[Whitey Grandad]

Really? Is that the official excuse for this? When fat cats (otherwise known as mates of George and Dave) are currently lording it on huge pay packets from formerly nationalised industries?

 

I'm saying that there are plenty of fat cats in the public sector, some of the salaries in the local authorities and the NHS are eye-watering. Huge pay packets are not restricted to the private sector.

[bridge too far]

I'm saying that there are plenty of fat cats in the public sector, some of the salaries in the local authorities and the NHS are eye-watering. Huge pay packets are not restricted to the private sector.

 

But that's because of Market Forces (beloved of many on here). Senior public sector employees have far more budgetary and resource responsibility than many in the private sector earning a lot more money.

 

If you want the best people for a job, you pay them accordingly. Isn't that what they say about bankers / hedge fund managers et al?

[badgerx16]

I'm saying that there are plenty of fat cats in the public sector, some of the salaries in the local authorities and the NHS are eye-watering. Huge pay packets are not restricted to the private sector.

Go on then, give us an estimate of the percentage of Local Authority or NHS staff that are 'fat cats' - maybe you could start by defining the salary point above which they would qualify.

[badgerx16]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmcomloc/191/19105.htm

 

"4. It is important however to put these pay rates in context. Comparisons are often drawn with remuneration for senior jobs in other sectors and in other parts of the public sector. Salary levels for local government sector senior posts are significantly lower than those in the private sector,[9] and indeed lower than those in some other parts of the public sector, such as academia. Even taking account of enhanced pension provision, packages remain much lower for a top council post when compared to the packages on offer for top private sector staff. "

Annual remuneration of Chief Executives in the public sector

[shurlock]

Local authorities are a poor example of financial responsibility. Just take a look at the salaries of the fat-cat executives and the staffing levels over the last twenty years or so and try to justify that.

 

Way off the truth.

Edited 9 May, 2015 by shurlock

[shurlock]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmcomloc/191/19105.htm

 

"4. It is important however to put these pay rates in context. Comparisons are often drawn with remuneration for senior jobs in other sectors and in other parts of the public sector. Salary levels for local government sector senior posts are significantly lower than those in the private sector,[9] and indeed lower than those in some other parts of the public sector, such as academia. Even taking account of enhanced pension provision, packages remain much lower for a top council post when compared to the packages on offer for top private sector staff. "

Annual remuneration of Chief Executives in the public sector

 

The big problem is that a quasi-market exists in local gov chief exec labour markets where authorities are in competition with one another to attract the best people, thereby bidding up remuneration. You see a similar arms race in academies and foundation hospitals which have greater autonomy. Such pressures are much more muted in other parts of the public sector where the SSRB to a large extent sets pay centrally. Those who call for a greater role for markets in allocating resources can't have their cake and eat it.

[Hatch]

lefties in London today ,

 

very nice way to celebrate VE day

 

 

[badgerx16]

lefties in London today ,

 

very nice way to celebrate VE day

 

 

 

Please don't try to equate those with left leaning political sympathies with the socially depraved c()nts that do this sort of thing.

[View From The Top]

Indeed, you're quite right, it's just that the public sector has no concept of controlling costs. '

 

Just when I think Hockey Saint is responsible for the daftest comments you come along and steal his crown.

[View From The Top]

lefties in London today ,

 

very nice way to celebrate VE day

 

 

 

These aren't lefties, they are just anarchist scum.

[SuperMikey]

Precisely. There is an extremely nasty and vicious undercurrent beneath the lefty exterior. A lot of the time it isn't even very well hidden.

 

Oh do f*ck off you odious little c*nt.

 

Oops, must be my lefty undercurrent. Sorry about that old bean.

[buctootim]

If you want the best people for a job, you pay them accordingly. Isn't that what they say about bankers / hedge fund managers et al?

 

No no you haven't understood Whitey's and Wes' mentality. In the private sector they are dynamos on performance related pay, in the public sector its bloated fat cats.

 

The CEO of the trust I used to work for earned, for managing 10,000 staff and a budget of £1billion a year, around £230,000pa. For context thats a bit less than than a couple of the doctors who worked for her and less than a partner in medium sized London law firm. She lived in Oxford because she couldn't afford to live near the hospital in central London.

Edited 9 May, 2015 by buctootim

[Hockey_saint]

Just when I think Hockey Saint is responsible for the daftest comments you come along and steal his crown.

 

So the national intimidation of quiet, silent tories skewing the polls comment wasn't daft at all then. You can call my comments whatever you like, perhaps they are too emotive to be rational but I say what I see all the time. There are many worse than me.

Edited 9 May, 2015 by Hockey_saint

[View From The Top]

So the national intimidation of quiet, silent tories skewing the polls comment wasn't daft at all then.

 

As a leftie I've done an awful lot of cringing reading your posts. Your heart is clearly in the right place and your sentiments sincere, I just find them a little to desperate for my taste. Sorry mush.

[Hockey_saint]

As a leftie I've done an awful lot of cringing reading your posts. Your heart is clearly in the right place and your sentiments sincere, I just find them a little to desperate for my taste. Sorry mush.

 

Fair point.

[Johnny Bognor]

But that's because of Market Forces (beloved of many on here). Senior public sector employees have far more budgetary and resource responsibility than many in the private sector earning a lot more money.

 

If you want the best people for a job, you pay them accordingly. Isn't that what they say about bankers / hedge fund managers et al?

 

Public sector are given cash by the government. Private sector companies have to sell their wares to get cash. The hardest part of running a business is gaining and growing revenue. The rest is just operations. So you can't campare private company execs to public sector. In the public sector it is about resource management.

[badgerx16]

Public sector are given cash by the government. Private sector companies have to sell their wares to get cash. The hardest part of running a business is gaining and growing revenue. The rest is just operations. So you can't campare private company execs to public sector. In the public sector it is about resource management.

 

Over a third of my sections' revenue budget is from external business. The same goes for our HR department. A lot of Local Authorities have traded services.

[Jonnyboy]

That's just a myth. Private sector companies can be notoriously top-loaded, and a common question heard in many of the larger concerns is "what job does he/she do?". I think small business is a brilliant thing. Able to twist, turn and refocus; normally comprised of staff who know how to wear a few hats.

 

The corporate world is the complete opposite. Hierarchy, process, people resolutely wearing one (and only one) hat, standards. Half of company policy and procedure is normally in recognition of its size, designed to keep itself from tearing itself apart. It just about hangs together, but it can be woefully inefficient. The reason it hangs together is because the shareholders are happy, and the reason the shareholders are happy is because the organisation still makes money, even amongst the inherent inefficiency. The reason the organisation still makes money is because the cost of all that inefficiency is passed down to the customer, be it government or individual.

 

The hidden cost of corporate inefficiency is a burden we all have to pay, either through tax or direct spend. Public and private sector comparisons are therefore apples and oranges in a financial sense. If you look at private sector organisations through a purely financial lens in isolation, hey, some of them are really profitable organisations. What great businesses! What's worse is that the money is seen as pure. "No-one has taken anything from the taxpayer to get that!", the capitalist might say. Yeah, you have. It's in your prices. It's reflected in the margin we pay to allow you to deal with your shít.

 

The private sector is not more efficient than the public sector. It just gets to hide its losses in its prices and pretend that it doesn't affect taxpayers.

 

Post of the year.

[Verbal]

Public sector are given cash by the government. Private sector companies have to sell their wares to get cash. The hardest part of running a business is gaining and growing revenue. The rest is just operations. So you can't campare private company execs to public sector. In the public sector it is about resource management.

 

You might try looking up the definition of crony capitalism. Your neat little distinction might have worked in the 1830s but not now.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You might try looking up the definition of crony capitalism. Your neat little distinction might have worked in the 1830s but not now.

 

What the left will not understand is that small business hate big business more than they do .

[badgerx16]

This was the first election for 20 years where the Tories had the lowest 'votes per MP' count of the parties taking part.

[Johnny Bognor]

You might try looking up the definition of crony capitalism. Your neat little distinction might have worked in the 1830s but not now.

 

Indeed, but there are over 1.5 million businesses in the UK (excluding the self employes), of which only 40,000 employ more than 50 employees. The remaining 1.45 million businesses are small in size.

 

When people talk about the private sector, much of their criticism relates to a small number of businesses in the scheme of things, as if these 1.45 million businesses don't count.

 

so when we talk about the private sector, we should make a distinction between big corporates and what I call the 'real' private sector

[LGTL]

Gove as Justice Secretary

 

Expect a return to public hangings to "improve standards" and absolutely no justice whatsoever!

[Whitey Grandad]

What the left will not understand is that small business hate big business more than they do .

 

Indeed we do. There's not just hate, there's contempt, disdain and disbelief as well.

[Torres]

For all of Blair's faults, at least he understands what Labour need to do:

 

“The Labour party has to be for ambition as well as compassion and care. Hard-working families don’t just want us celebrating their hard work; they want to know that by hard work and effort they can rise up, achieve. They want to be better off and they need to know we don’t just tolerate that, we support it.”

 

Nails it right there. There was no sense during the election campaign that Labour wanted people to be successful and incentivise them to be so , only to prop up those who weren't and drag down those who were.

[buctootim]

When people talk about the private sector, much of their criticism relates to a small number of businesses in the scheme of things, as if these 1.45 million businesses don't count.

 

so when we talk about the private sector, we should make a distinction between big corporates and what I call the 'real' private sector

 

Yes but those small businesses account for less than half of employment and one third of private sector revenue so in value terms the private sector is dominated by big business. http://www.fsb.org.uk/stats.

 

The problem is that as all organisations get bigger they get harder to manage, less efficient and less entrepreneurial. A public sector organisation with 10,000 staff is little different to a private sector one of the same size. Ive had BT broadband for 6 years. I changed my contract two weeks ago to a different package. Instead of simply doing that in minutes by a data entry on a account management system they made 8 separate mistakes:

 

1. Sent me two home hub 5 (£100 each) instead of 1

2. Cut off the broadband

3. Randomly changed my phone number

4. A week later cut off my phone

5. Sent a engineer to install a router "because the home hub 3 you have needs a router" despite the fact they had installed a router three years ago and anyway the new hub they sent didnt need one

6. Sent an engineer to "fix the problems you have been experiencing" (ie reconnect the broadband they shouldnt have cut off . He apologised profusely but said he couldnt do the work because all of the 10 available connections in the street cabinet were blown because of lack of maintenance.

7. My BT TV order was never processed.

8. Eight different call to customer services mostly ended up in India who transferred me at least 10 times and cut me off five. They just came out with nonsense "your account is not with BT", "you have no phone line", "you have been cut off because you havent paid the bill", "Its not working because it takes 48 hours to settle down" and never actually resolved anything at all.

 

So for £15pm on a 12 month contract (grand total £180) they have sent two engineers to my home and one to the exchange. BT staff spent a total of five hours on the phone. They sent me £200 worth of equipment and £140 in Sainsbury and Next vouchers. How is that efficient business? I have never dealt with a public sector organisation anywhere like as a bad as BT, or Tiger sheds in Yorkshire.

Edited 10 May, 2015 by buctootim

[Batman]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/labour-left-miliband-hating-english

 

it is typical of the wider educated left in England, which almost alone in the world, makes a virtue of denigrating its own people.

 

The universities, left press, and the arts characterise the English middle-class as Mail-reading misers, who are sexist, racist and homophobic to boot. Meanwhile, they characterise the white working class as lardy Sun-reading slobs, who are, since you asked, also sexist, racist and homophobic. The national history is reduced to one long imperial crime, and the notion that the English are not such a bad bunch with many strong radical traditions worth preserving is rejected as risibly complacent. So tainted and untrustworthy are they that they must be told what they can say and how they should behave.

 

What truth there is in the caricature is lost amid the accompanying hypocrisy. The intellectual left deplores racism but uses “white” as an insult. It lambasts the sexism of the right, but stays silent as Labour candidates run meetings where Muslim women’s inferiority is confirmed by stewards who usher them into segregated seating .

[Sour Mash]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/labour-left-miliband-hating-english

 

That's a good piece, plus this from a similar point http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100284604/the-self-loathing-of-the-british-left-is-now-a-problem-for-us-all/

[Unbelievable Jeff]

As a leftie I've done an awful lot of cringing reading your posts. Your heart is clearly in the right place and your sentiments sincere, I just find them a little to desperate for my taste. Sorry mush.

 

Have to say, VFTT seems to be one of the only 'lefties' to have reacted to all of this sensibly.

[TheCholulaKid]

Have to say, VFTT seems to be one of the only 'lefties' to have reacted to all of this sensibly.

 

Get your tongue out of his arse. Plenty of 'lefties' have reacted sensibly. Plenty haven't. Plenty of 'righties' have reacted sensibly. Plenty haven't.

 

There are plenty of ****s on both sides. There are plenty of decent people on both sides. You won't find many of them on a football forum though.

[pap]

Have to say, VFTT seems to be one of the only 'lefties' to have reacted to all of this sensibly.

 

Reacted? I predicted most of this when the Scottish referendum was finalised. The thing I got wrong were the specifics of how that would be important. I always thought it would be Dave's Falkland moment, but what it actually turned out to be was the enabler for the collapse of the Scottish vote in Labour (not ultimately significant given the overall majority in England). Realistically, Ed and Labour didn't do enough to convince the people in the middle to go with them. The people in the middle are likely to be employed, and likely to want that to continue. I can understand and accept the Conservative majority, and I have to give the Tories a great deal of credit, even if on a Machiavellian level. They lured the other parties to potential salvation, and crashed them on the rocks in the shoals.

 

Tories to Lib Dems. "Hey, come into government with us. It'll be great"

Lib Dems. "We've never had power before. We'll go with just about anyone"

 

Tories to Labour. "Hey, come into saving the Union with us. It'll be great"

Labour. "That does sound great. People will remember us for it"

 

Two political shipwrecks, just because the Conservatives convinced them the waters were worth sailing.

[hypochondriac]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/labour-left-miliband-hating-english

 

That almost perfectly captures the attitude of KelvinsRightGlove.

[hypochondriac]

Get your tongue out of his arse. Plenty of 'lefties' have reacted sensibly. Plenty haven't. Plenty of 'righties' have reacted sensibly. Plenty haven't.

 

There are plenty of ****s on both sides. There are plenty of decent people on both sides. You won't find many of them on a football forum though.

 

That's not strictly true I'm afraid. The majority of reactions from lefties on here has been hysterical, melodramatic flim flam.

[aintforever]

That's not strictly true I'm afraid. The majority of reactions from lefties on here has been hysterical, melodramatic flim flam.

 

To be fair, there was just as bad hysterical, melodramatic flim flam on here from the Tories before the election at the thought of a few Scottish MPs forming a Labour government coalition.

[Batman]

England clearly wants a centre-right government. It took labour to be almost that to get into power. that is what England wants and has done for god knows how long.

Even UKiP have seen a massive surge in their votes and took a good chunk from labour and beat them into 2nd in a higher number of seats.

 

All the bleating from brand, charlotte church and the like will not really change that.

 

Even in Wales, where that welsh bird had a very high level of publicity this election, they pretty much rejected what she offered as it was the Conservative best result over there for 30 years.

[Verbal]

What the left will not understand is that small business hate big business more than they do .

 

Who the **** do you think you're talking to with this "the Left" cliched nonsense? I've had more than twenty years of running a small business, with all the excitement and drudgery (VAT returns, company accounts, paying more corporation tax than multinationals named after great rain forests, etc) that goes with it. I've also over the years voted Tory, Lib Dem and Labour. What you don't understand, evidently, is that small business is a small player in terms of political power, and certainly does not dominate the economic landscape either.

 

Like all small businesses, I've also had the benefits of that as well as the costs - and that certainly includes paying less tax than if I had been a PAYE employee all these years. Any small business owner who denies that is a liar. The costs have included no safety net - no recourse to unemployment benefit when contracts run out (there's no such thing as unemployment because you're always developing the next thing).

 

No small business I know has the resources to hire political consultants and lobbyists, to negotiate multibillion pound contracts that seem not to contain anything like adequate performance milestones, to have the power just to walk away from government contracts when they feel like it, to not suffer any kind of realistic sanction when they utterly fail (and demand even more money to exit from the failure), to engage in borderline-legal bribery (with donations and inducements) and influence-peddling to win contracts, to slash employees' pay and leverage up executives' pay on taking over public sector contracts, and so on and on.

 

At the top of the tree of national cronies are the banks, of course - too big to fail, too wrapped up in our economic system to allow politicians to do anything other than bung billions of pounds at them when they inevitably overreach.

 

And that's before we even start with the overwhelming power of the multinationals. One of the worst consequences of a Brexit is that the UK will be even more at the mercy of the multinationals without the collective bargaining and policing power of the EU. Not that the EU is an angel. You may (or may not) have heard of TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership), something on which the EU and Cameron are at one. It will give American multinationals in particular huge leverage to snap up contracts in the NHS, UK energy, cars, finance, food and drink - all economic activities dominated by corporate behemoths. One of the nastiest aspects of this is that these huge American companies will acquire the power to sue governments when things, in their view, go wrong. So a democratically taken decision, for example, to exclude an American multinational health insurer or medical supplier from NHS bidding will result in endless lawsuits.

 

And with all this, you're bleating about how you 'hate' big business? You've just voted for the party that, more than any other, will railroad big business into ever greater positions of power.

[View From The Top]

That's not strictly true I'm afraid. The majority of reactions from lefties on here has been hysterical, melodramatic flim flam.

 

Not half as bad as the hysterical bed wetting from the right about the SNP taking over the running of the UK and holding us all to ransom before the election. Now that was really pathetic.

 

Nearly as stupid as Duckhunters claims regarding how many seats UKIP would get.

[CB Fry]

Not half as bad as the hysterical bed wetting from the right about the SNP taking over the running of the UK and holding us all to ransom before the election. Now that was really pathetic.

 

Nearly as stupid as Duckhunters claims regarding how many seats UKIP would get.

Would have loved to see the reaction of Wes et al if it was a different Prime Minister promising Scotland and the SNP "the strongest devolved government in the world" within minutes of entering No. 10.

 

They've got Cameron by the balls they have. By. the. balls. etc. etc.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Do lefties realise the Tories won the election ? Becoming one of the only governments that increased their majority . Just walked the dog listening to " any questions" , listening to Shirley Wiiliams telling us what the country wants , is laughable . The country wanted her sorry party kicked out and the government to move to the right . Every time her , Charles Clarke or a leftie snp bloke attacked the Tories , or made a point about bedroom tax or ending austerity , cheers rang out from the audiance . The voters knew about the bedroom tax, knew the Tories were cutting welfare by £12 billion and they voted for it. They have a mandate for more welfare cuts, for more austerity , for an EU referendum can people like Williams stop telling us what the people want , we've just asked the people and they've told us.

 

Even funnier was listening to " any answers" afterwards as I was driving home . I nearly had to pull over I was laughing so much . God, they should have given out the sameritians number afterwards . Various lefties calling in , baffled that the English aren't as " progressive " or caring as them . Even had one clown say labour lost because they didn't bring back clause 4. Anyone would think tony Blair lost 3 elections .

 

Is there a medical complaint called deludedleftism, where people convince themselves what actually happened didn't really . Do any lefties on here think we beat Leicester yesterday?

 

Democracy is a damn awkward thing for people like Toynbee and her ilk . The country would be so much better if the great unwashed weren't allowed to vote.