Price of Football

[Bucks Saint]

Or, here's a thought, dont have strikers that cost you £300k per week each. Rooney got 17 last season. Is that worth it? Sturridge got 22. Rickie got 13. Etc etc. You can get value without paying top dollar.

[Repat Saint]

So you'd make our most expensive tickets more expensive, but our cheapest tickets cheaper (at category level). People don't want cheaper tickets to the cheap games though, they want cheaper tickets to the Cat A games. This can be seen from VFTT's posts earlier.

 

So how do you propose we get round this without decreasing revenues?

 

I know you don't like it, but in general the demand for football tickets is price inelastic, and is far more linked to the quality of the football that is on show rather than the price. A £1 reduction in the price of a ticket is not going to result in am increase in attendance of 1000 people (which it would need to do to cover lost revenues).

 

Latecomer to this thread, but I think things seem to be a little confused in economic terms. The elasticity of demand clearly does depend on the opposition. Having different categories of games already recognizes this! - Cat A = inelastic, high prices as demand is high regardless of price Cat C = elastic, lower prices to stimulate demand.

 

If the stadium is not full, then someone is not doing their job as well as they should, as empty seats always = loss of revenue. Not only from the ticket cost, but from additional spend at the stadium.

 

So reducing the cost of the empty seats at Cat C games is one possible solution. Another would be last minute, at the ground sales of the unsold tickets at a discount of £5-£10. That seems a lot, but remember, if they otherwise stay unsold, you make £0. Also, you get people to the stadium, where you could potentially sell merchandise, or one thing that I don't know why no clubs have done - possibly broadcasting rules or police / safety regs? - Have a cheap standing area with a giant screen for 'overflow' fans.

[Turkish]

Latecomer to this thread, but I think things seem to be a little confused in economic terms. The elasticity of demand clearly does depend on the opposition. Having different categories of games already recognizes this! - Cat A = inelastic, high prices as demand is high regardless of price Cat C = elastic, lower prices to stimulate demand.

 

If the stadium is not full, then someone is not doing their job as well as they should, as empty seats always = loss of revenue. Not only from the ticket cost, but from additional spend at the stadium.

 

So reducing the cost of the empty seats at Cat C games is one possible solution. Another would be last minute, at the ground sales of the unsold tickets at a discount of £5-£10. That seems a lot, but remember, if they otherwise stay unsold, you make £0. Also, you get people to the stadium, where you could potentially sell merchandise, or one thing that I don't know why no clubs have done - possibly broadcasting rules or police / safety regs? - Have a cheap standing area with a giant screen for 'overflow' fans.

 

So if we were to use your late buyers theory then what is to stop those that buy on a match by match basis simply waiting until the day before the game to buy their ticket, knowing full well that it'll be £35 on Monday or a tenner on Saturday? Then that day you'd have 5000 people ringing, emailing the ticket office or using the website, over working the ticket office too late to send tickets out and huge queues on match days with people trying to collect their cheap tickets. It'd be a nightmare logistically.

 

Take it a step further and season ticket holders could well give up their season ticket which costs them £700 to go match by match knowing that they'll only be paying a tenner if they're smarter. The club would lose a fortune.

 

Whilst people are paying the high prices clubs will all them at a high price. 29000 people paying £35 is better than 32,000 people paying £20.

[hypochondriac]

I've seen the future and it's easyjet pricing.

[Whitey Grandad]

I've seen the future and it's easyjet pricing.

 

What, turn up late and fight for a seat?

[hypochondriac]

What, turn up late and fight for a seat?

 

I'm charging you for a p*ss whitey.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So if we were to use your late buyers theory then what is to stop those that buy on a match by match basis simply waiting until the day before the game to buy their ticket, knowing full well that it'll be £35 on Monday or a tenner on Saturday? Then that day you'd have 5000 people ringing, emailing the ticket office or using the website, over working the ticket office too late to send tickets out and huge queues on match days with people trying to collect their cheap tickets. It'd be a nightmare logistically.

 

Take it a step further and season ticket holders could well give up their season ticket which costs them £700 to go match by match knowing that they'll only be paying a tenner if they're smarter. The club would lose a fortune.

 

Whilst people are paying the high prices clubs will all them at a high price. 29000 people paying £35 is better than 32,000 people paying £20.

 

And there is STILL no guarantee that we'd sell out every week.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Latecomer to this thread, but I think things seem to be a little confused in economic terms. The elasticity of demand clearly does depend on the opposition. Having different categories of games already recognizes this! - Cat A = inelastic, high prices as demand is high regardless of price Cat C = elastic, lower prices to stimulate demand.

 

If the stadium is not full, then someone is not doing their job as well as they should, as empty seats always = loss of revenue. Not only from the ticket cost, but from additional spend at the stadium.

 

So reducing the cost of the empty seats at Cat C games is one possible solution. Another would be last minute, at the ground sales of the unsold tickets at a discount of £5-£10. That seems a lot, but remember, if they otherwise stay unsold, you make £0. Also, you get people to the stadium, where you could potentially sell merchandise, or one thing that I don't know why no clubs have done - possibly broadcasting rules or police / safety regs? - Have a cheap standing area with a giant screen for 'overflow' fans.

 

That just won't work.

[shurlock]

So you'd make our most expensive tickets more expensive, but our cheapest tickets cheaper (at category level). People don't want cheaper tickets to the cheap games though, they want cheaper tickets to the Cat A games. This can be seen from VFTT's posts earlier.

 

So how do you propose we get round this without decreasing revenues?

 

I know you don't like it, but in general the demand for football tickets is price inelastic, and is far more linked to the quality of the football that is on show rather than the price. A £1 reduction in the price of a ticket is not going to result in am increase in attendance of 1000 people (which it would need to do to cover lost revenues).

 

Not so sure - cant remember exactly when I saw the first big team come to the Dell -roughly 10-15 games in when we played Leeds- but the quality of the opposition was never the be all and end all. And ultimately the quality of the product -watching the same southampton side in the top flight- is not significantly different. We're not talking the dross the skates are served up in L2.

 

Not sure what you mean by price inelastic -arguably that applies most to category A games- and is one reason why prices IMO could be ramped up further without causing any reduction in attendance: in the absence of a larger stadium, nobody knows what would happen from such an experiment. Either way, that surplus could be used to subsidise the less fashionable games so as to be commercially viable. As I say, am dubious that any real supporter only comes for the category A games; but if you claim as such, perhaps prices for those games could be frozen if supporters (in general or a specific group) had bought a certain number of category C games.

 

Ultimately, we're coming at it from different places - you see pricing as an opportunity to maximise revenue; I see it as a way of making it more affordable for people who were historically the mainstay of the game. The two positions have their own merits but they are basically incommensurable. That said, I don't think cheaper prices in some limited cases has to result in throwing the commercial baby out out of the bathwater.

Edited 16 October, 2014 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Not so sure - cant remember exactly when I saw the first big team come to the Dell -roughly 10-15 games in when we played Leeds- but the quality of the opposition was never the be all and end all. And ultimately the quality of the product -watching the same southampton side in the top flight- is not significantly different. We're not talking the dross the skates are served up in L2.

 

Not sure what you mean by price inelastic -arguably that applies most to category A games- and is one reason why prices IMO could be ramped up further without causing any reduction in attendance: in the absence of a larger stadium, nobody knows what would happen from such an experiment. Either way, that surplus could be used to subsidise the less fashionable games so as to be commercially viable. As I say, am dubious that any real supporter only comes for the category A games; but if you claim as such, perhaps prices for those games could be frozen if supporters (in general or a specific group) had bought a certain number of category C games.

 

Ultimately, we're coming at it from different places - you see pricing as an opportunity to maximise revenue; I see it as a way of making it more affordable for people who were historically the mainstay of the game. The two positions have their own merits but they are basically incommensurable. That said, I don't think cheaper prices in some limited cases has to result in throwing the commercial baby out out of the bathwater.

 

That's fair enough.

 

Please don't think that I am defending high prices in football - I don't like the fact that prices are so high as it means I go to less games than I would otherwise. It's not that I see it as something that SHOULD be used to maximise revenues - in fact I think the opposite, but the biggest issue is that many clubs don't make a profit so they have to maximise the revenues, and that tends to mean higher prices for the fans.

 

Now, when we get a breakeven stage, I expect the club to freeze ticket prices, or at the very least follow the Consumer Price Index for inflation.

[Chez]

What about the people who have acted with their feet? I thought the club were taking the p!ss by putting STs up again this year after getting £80m in TV money and jacked in my ST. I know quite a few other people who have as well. Clubs will continually expect fans to bend over and take it, until people stop going. Then the prices will come down, but not massively...

you have pretty much saved me the bother of typing a considered response. I could not agree more with you. At some point enough is enough.

[View From The Top]

Wonder what the excuse will be now. Embarrassing doesn't even start to cover it.

 

We can't buy tickets in he family stand at St Marys. It's 2 x adult to 1 x U17s.

 

Still, keep trying.

[View From The Top]

For a top category game at Stoke, in the family stand it is an adult at £40 and an under 17 at £23.

 

At Saints for a top Category game in the family area, it is £39 for an adult and £19 for a concession.

 

So a fiver cheaper at Saints than Stoke from what I can see?

 

Except Saints it's 2 x adult to 1 x kid in the family section. That isn't the case at Stoke so no, my lad and I don't have that option.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

We can't buy tickets in he family stand at St Marys. It's 2 x adult to 1 x U17s.

 

Still, keep trying.

 

Ok, see that's not what you complained about, or was the below just a bare-faced lie:

 

When I asked the club why tickets for 12yo kids were so expensive compared to WBA & Stoke, my closest BPL teams, their answer was because the cost of living was cheaper in the north!

 

The club is pricing families out as many on here will attest to.

 

If what you say about provision to buy tickets like that is true then yes, that is annoying, but that's about the provision of tickets and not the price of them.

Edited 16 October, 2014 by Unbelievable Jeff

[buctootim]

 

[View From The Top]

Ok, see that's not what you complained about, or was the below just a bare-faced lie:

 

 

 

If what you say about provision to buy tickets like that is true then yes, that is annoying, but that's about the provision of tickets and not the price of them.

 

It's both. To get decent priced tickets for U17s then you have to have 2 adult tickets. Why not just price kids tickets sensibly in the 1st place across The Chapel as was the case in previous years?

 

I wrote to the club when the prices were released, as I posted at the time. Got replies from Ralf and the commercial manager and both stated that the cost of living impacted pricing.

 

We now pick and choose games and any home games will always be at the lowest price point.

[Scummer]

Except Saints it's 2 x adult to 1 x kid in the family section. That isn't the case at Stoke so no, my lad and I don't have that option.

 

Are you sure? I thought that was the maximum ratio, so you can't have 3 adults and only one child for example. One adult per child is probably the most common arrangement in the family section.

[View From The Top]

Are you sure? I thought that was the maximum ratio, so you can't have 3 adults and only one child for example. One adult per child is probably the most common arrangement in the family section.

 

That's what they told me. I'll be f**k off if it's wrong as I'll have dipped out on games!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It's both. To get decent priced tickets for U17s then you have to have 2 adult tickets. Why not just price kids tickets sensibly in the 1st place across The Chapel as was the case in previous years?

 

I wrote to the club when the prices were released, as I posted at the time. Got replies from Ralf and the commercial manager and both stated that the cost of living impacted pricing.

 

We now pick and choose games and any home games will always be at the lowest price point.

 

And that's fair enough - I think the posts were missing this context. For instance it is cheaper for me, my missus and my kid to go see Saints than it is to see Stoke.

 

To me that is pretty damn good. For you it's £12 more than at Stoke, but then you don't have to sit in the family section at Saints whereas you would at Stoke.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Are you sure? I thought that was the maximum ratio, so you can't have 3 adults and only one child for example. One adult per child is probably the most common arrangement in the family section.

 

I've read it through a few times on the website and it is a bit unclear but I think he's right.

 

What confuses it is that Stoke says pretty much exactly the same thing, but it is meant the opposite way.

 

The confusing thing is that to take two children there would need to be 4 adults. That makes no sense whatsoever??

[Bearsy]

That's what they told me. I'll be f**k off if it's wrong as I'll have dipped out on games!

 

you should attack them with this bro cos scummer has got it right, I took nephew to game no prob and I'm but one man.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

you should attack them with this bro cos scummer has got it right, I took nephew to game no prob and I'm but one man.

 

It makes no sense to be applied the opposite way, none whatsoever.

[Bearsy]

Well quite, I can understand why they told View From Top that, it's prob quite boring in ticket office and it gave them a good laugh, but it seems rough that his poor kid is missing games cos of it

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well quite, I can understand why they told View From Top that, it's prob quite boring in ticket office and it gave them a good laugh, but it seems rough that his poor kid is missing games cos of it

 

No reply from VFTT in a while. I bet he's ripping them a gaper.

 

The ticket office that is.

[Bearsy]

The worst bit is when VFTT wrote to Ralph and the commercial manager bout it, and they both give him the raspberry I'm all for a joke, but they took it too far IMO. It's like a conspiracy, and it goes right to the ****ing top yo!

[deadpanmatt]

Someone please explain to me why it cost £39 to see Newcastle this season, only £1 cheaper than it was to see Chelsea in the same price band last season. That is definitely the day I felt most ripped off at St Mary's (although we did win 4-0!).

[angelman]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1368[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1369[/ATTACH]

 

Should also have a row for average Prem League wage.

 

As far as I can garner, the average wage....

 

2000 @ £ 7,890

2006 @ £13,000

2014 @ £31,000

 

The report where I got the 2006 figure from said that the basic wage was then often added to by a factor of 60-100% when bonuses were taken into account. Not sure how much image rights add and what is now included/excluded as the tax man did a little digging into all this. Probably wouldn't affect those basic figures.

[The Cat]

It's one adult per concession in the Family Stand. The 2 that sit next to us are brother and sister. She's early 20's, he's about 15. Definitely don't need 2 adults.

 

You need 2 adults to get a free U11 ticket in that section. That's the only time you need 2 adults.

[The Cat]

Are you sure? I thought that was the maximum ratio, so you can't have 3 adults and only one child for example. One adult per child is probably the most common arrangement in the family section.

 

The family in front of us have 3 x adults, 1 x OAP and 1 x U11. No idea how they get around it but they do somehow.

[View From The Top]

It's one adult per concession in the Family Stand. The 2 that sit next to us are brother and sister. She's early 20's, he's about 15. Definitely don't need 2 adults.

 

You need 2 adults to get a free U11 ticket in that section. That's the only time you need 2 adults.

 

FFS.

 

I'm not right impressed.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

FFS.

 

I'm not right impressed.

 

I think you should post the replies you got from the club on here, as they should be named and shamed.

[Whitey Grandad]

It's one adult per concession in the Family Stand. The 2 that sit next to us are brother and sister. She's early 20's, he's about 15. Definitely don't need 2 adults.

 

You need 2 adults to get a free U11 ticket in that section. That's the only time you need 2 adults.

 

The U11 ticket may be free but you still pay the ticket tax on it.

[tpbury]

Just some more Dortmund love-in. Have to say I would be tempted to pop over...

 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29624410

[Sour Mash]

Just some more Dortmund love-in. Have to say I would be tempted to pop over...

 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29624410

It's well worth doing a game at Dortmund, but don't be too fooled by the article, Dortmund as a city is dire and doesn't actually feel like a hot bed of football ironically. Also, the media love to talk it up and it is good, but there are plenty of other good venues in Germany alone, Kaiserslautern for example.

[angelman]

Don't understand that. Why would you "flock to Dortmund"? I can't understand supporting a team based on their ticket prices. I have no connection to them, and have no interest in them. I did used to go to Ligue 1 when I lived in France, but that was to get my football fix from the team in the city I lived in.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Don't understand that. Why would you "flock to Dortmund"? I can't understand supporting a team based on their ticket prices. I have no connection to them, and have no interest in them. I did used to go to Ligue 1 when I lived in France, but that was to get my football fix from the team in the city I lived in.

 

A few years ago Sky (or maybe the BBC) did a piece on a family in the South-East who found it cheaper to get a season ticket at Lens and travel there every other week than get one at West Ham (or something like that).

[Turkish]

A few years ago Sky (or maybe the BBC) did a piece on a family in the South-East who found it cheaper to get a season ticket at Lens and travel there every other week than get one at West Ham (or something like that).

 

Why would anyone do that?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Why would anyone do that?

 

I can't remember exactly - I think the family said it was based on affordability but the narrative was clearly that it was cheaper, including travel, to watch top flight football in another country than here. Obviously it meant sweet FA really but I suppose it was a story

[angelman]

I have a ST @ SMS. If it became unaffordable, I would probably give up with football totally. I wouldn't go and watch another side that I have no connection with. Maybe Bashley FC as it is the closest to me, but not another professional club.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The other thing about Dortmund is unless you are in the terraces, which are pretty hard to get tickets to, it's not actually that cheap.

[Bucks Saint]

I have a ST @ SMS. If it became unaffordable, I would probably give up with football totally. I wouldn't go and watch another side that I have no connection with. Maybe Bashley FC as it is the closest to me, but not another professional club.

 

Spot on and nail on the head as to why most clubs can fleece most of their fans. Unlike any other business we cant go anywhere else and the decision to quit completely is extremely hard, such that fans sacrifice many other things first.

[angelman]

Bucks I agree to a certain extent, but maybe we are from a pre-PL era. I think the modern supporter is a lot more fickle and are happy to change allegiances at a whim. Maybe I am wrong.

[ThorpG]

Bucks I agree to a certain extent, but maybe we are from a pre-PL era. I think the modern supporter is a lot more fickle and are happy to change allegiances at a whim. Maybe I am wrong.

 

I am not sure the modern football fan is more fickle - I think there are as many loyal Saints fans as ever, it is simply that there are now more fans who come on a more casual basis - some of these people are more inclined to change allegiance if the club gets say relegated etc... I feel like about 20,000 will come and watch Saints regardless of what division we are in and this then moves upwards towards 30,000 as we are more successful. When stadia were smaller in the pre-PL days these 'casual' fans just couldn't tickets as easily, particularly at our club with at 15k capacity at the Dell.

[ThorpG]

Whatever the arguments on here about the rights and wrongs of prices, the Price of Football piece on the BBC has heightened the debate, taking on a political element now:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29652317

 

Feels like cheap political publicity to me, as I don't expect Labour to get in power at the election, and I don't believe a government would really legislate on football club ownership / board make up in this country.

[angelman]

I agree that it is a cheap political shot. These are private companies - to me if fans want representation, they should buy into the club, rather than just be a customer. Take us for example, us fans had the chance to buy the club not so long ago. I wonder if I go shopping at Tesco's whether I can get a seat on the board?

 

As it currently stands, I do not want fans in the boardroom at SMS and do not think that one would have had any positive impact on any of our recent history. It mentions that supporters could get financial info on the club - well they can do that now to a certain extent by writing to Companies House and getting the accounts filed there.

 

I wonder if Labour will really tackle the issue and return football to those that go the grounds? They go on about relocation of stadia and increasing ticket prices, but I am sure are a little coy when it comes to, for example, supporters from Hull (l think it was them last season) who were playing Arsenal on a Monday night and couldn't catch a train back afterwards. Or Saints having to leave at 5am to make a noon kick off in Sunderland. Or have they come out and squashed the proposed overseas games? No of course not. They wouldn't dare take on the TV companies and the PL, much easier and populist to attack the owners.

[The9]

Whatever the arguments on here about the rights and wrongs of prices, the Price of Football piece on the BBC has heightened the debate, taking on a political element now:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29652317

 

Feels like cheap political publicity to me, as I don't expect Labour to get in power at the election, and I don't believe a government would really legislate on football club ownership / board make up in this country.

 

Don't you? Interesting.

 

This is a remarkable piece of populist begging by Labour, presumably to counter the Conservatives' posturing on ticket prices.

 

I have no problem with "a fan on the board" as a concept, at least in terms of fan representation over "customer" matters, eg ticket prices, community issues, practicalities of helping the club serve more people in the limited timescales around matches, merchandising, access to players, and stuff like that, but at the moment they seem to be doing alright picking up on the issues themselves, and I see no reason at all why it should be compulsory or captured in legislation.

 

Obviously if someone wants to come along and say "you can't charge more than £35 for a shirt, you have to keep it for 2 years, plus you can't charge more than £40 for a Prem match ticket or £20 for League Two, and you have to make 10% of capacity available to local schools for free" or something, I'd have less of a problem with the concept, as the practical benefits would override it.

 

What can I say, I'm a pragmatist, sometimes the reality is more important than the ideology.

[The9]

Bucks I agree to a certain extent, but maybe we are from a pre-PL era. I think the modern supporter is a lot more fickle and are happy to change allegiances at a whim. Maybe I am wrong.

 

I think you are. There are as many who'd never change allegiance as there ever were, the ones being fickle about who they say they support are almost entirely the ones who don't actually go to matches and for whom "commitment" lasts as long as their last proclamation of support, because that's the only way you'd even know who they were supporting.

 

They're irrelevant to a debate on ticket prices, although they occasionally pop up in a shirt - but I'd have no problem anyone charging that lot a premium for the privilege of buying a shirt anyway - and I suppose with Saints offering 10% off to ST holders that's effectively in place (albeit at the expense of genuine casual matchgoers compared to never-goers).

[Whitey Grandad]

Why would anyone do that?

 

You've clearly never seen West Ham play

[Turkish]

Just some more Dortmund love-in. Have to say I would be tempted to pop over...

 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29624410

 

There would be big problems with us being run like dortmund of course. Firstly win or lose the fans stay behind to applaud the team, at St Mary's, win or lose, half the fans are streaming out of the exits by the end of the game. Secondly, without the cheap beer a lot of our fans are already heading to the concourses on 35 minutes, with the promise of cheep beer, I doubt many of them will even make it to their seats. Thirdly, Unlike us Dortmund fans don't have to contend with roadworks on the m27 or A33, train engineer works, the weather, bank holidays, school holidays, two home games in a week, valentines day, surprise birthday parties for their great aunts and having to get home for x-factor all things that have prevented people attending in the past, so it's no surprise they can get these sort of crowds.

Edited 18 October, 2014 by Turkish

[Patrick Bateman]

There would be big problems with us being run like dortmund of course. Firstly win or lose the fans stay behind to applaud the team, at St Mary's, win or lose, half the fans are streaming out of the exits by the end of the game. Secondly, with the cheap beer a lot of our fans are already heading to the concourses on 35 minutes, with the promise of cheep beer, I doubt many of them will even make it to their seats. Thirdly, Unlike us Dortmund fans don't have to contend with roadworks on the m27 or A33, train engineer works, the weather, bank holidays, school holidays, two home games in a week, valentines day, surprise birthday parties for their great aunts and having to get home for x-factor all things that have prevented people attending in the past, so it's no surprise they can get these sort of crowds.

 

It's always someone else's fault!