Red And White Barmy Army Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 Controversy alert... Doubtful we would have for the controversy/outcry itself, but questions would have remained... 1) Was Pochettino capable of moving us forward any further with his playing style (lack of adaptability). 2) Would he have stood in the way of sensible business decisions being made whereby players were replaced by ones of similar (better?) ability at a lesser cost, thus risking our sustainability and ability to strengthen the depth of the squad as such? 3) Was MP showing enough commitment to us? Koeman is certainly a breath of fresh air for his honesty and English alone! Pochettino always seemed very reserved in public and potentially didn't fit in with the open culture Liebherr and Kreuger want to instil. Couldn't believe the immediate contrast when Ronald went off to the nuns for a week to improve his already very good English right at the start of his reign. 4) Although Pochettino did well, would it have still been for the good of the club to keep him if we had someone in mind that the board thought could do an even better job (like the Adkins-Pochettino change over)? On the other hand, would it have been too much of a risk to give up our status as a 'safe' mid-table club in search of greater prosperity? Helmet on. Discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 Although things have turned out very well The way to answer this is to turn back the clock to June 2014 and ask yourself would you be pleased if poch had signed a new deal then? The answer for 99% of people would be yes.and I heart Koeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red And White Barmy Army Posted 29 September, 2014 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2014 Although things have turned out very well The way to answer this is to turn back the clock to June 2014 and ask yourself would you be pleased if poch had signed a new deal then? The answer for 99% of people would be yes.and I heart Koeman. 99% would also have rather stuck with Adkins. Didn't make it the right one as these questions were present in June - just most people probably weren't looking at it as logically given the high we were on from having climbed a rather steep hill quite quickly, even though we were running out of energy to make it any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 No of course not. I wouldn't swap back now, but I have the benefit of hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 £2m compensation. Net £4m worse off. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 No. But when you hear stories of his behaviour in January at the PSG vs Chelsea game, then possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Ron fan Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 No. But when you hear stories of his behaviour in January at the PSG vs Chelsea game, then possibly. What is this about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrensup Posted 29 September, 2014 Share Posted 29 September, 2014 No. But when you hear stories of his behaviour in January at the PSG vs Chelsea game, then possibly. U wot m8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 I thought we were always a stepping stone for MP but I thought he would go to Spain or Italy probably after this season. I did not think for a minute that he would end up at Spurs. He would have had us in the top 10 and so there would have been no question of sacking him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 No of course not. I wouldn't swap back now, but I have the benefit of hindsight. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Although things have turned out very well The way to answer this is to turn back the clock to June 2014 and ask yourself would you be pleased if poch had signed a new deal then? The answer for 99% of people would be yes.and I heart Koeman. This. Would have been very happy if Poch had signed a new deal, and like you I am currently worshipping Koeman, and also never really warmed to Poch at all. Just can't deny his record though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Obviously not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 No but I lost affection for him after Sunderland FA Cup game so when he went was not as gutted as expected. Can really warm to Ron though and such a nice contrast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altoniansaints Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 No. But when you hear stories of his behaviour in January at the PSG vs Chelsea game, then possibly. ?????????? Not heard anything about this please enlighten me?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 ?????????? Not heard anything about this please enlighten me?????????? Basically, he got his knob out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svetigpung Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 i wonder if we would have been just as well off with good ol Nigel still in charge? The guy who got it really going for us. The guy whom built the foundations for Pochetino. What highs would we have managed with him on a long term contract. Along with the finances that Poch was granted. We wouldn't have had all this turbulance along the way. I was always worried we were going to lose him. Not sack him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 never really warmed to Poch, he arrived in an under hand manner and treated the cups disgracefully, anyone who was at Sunderland would agree, Koeman has already shown more ambition and rewarded us with an amazing night at The Emirates. For me Poch was always tainted after the summer 2013 where he said he would leave in Chairman Cortese did, clearly marking his allegiance to one man and not the club / fans. He clearly had no intention in sticking around long term and from what I hear he was a bad influence amongst the players who left in the 'meltdown'. i think Poch decided to leave in the spring. At least we got £2M for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benali Saint Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Remember an piece in the paper last year. It was after our good start. Cortese said he would replace Poch if another manager came along who he thought was better. I'd have been happy to have kept him in the summer, but he needeed to sort his ambition in the cups out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Hard to recall the exact timeline, but once it became known that Pochettino had been offered a new contract that he was failing to agree, it was apparent to many that he was planning to go. At the time, I'd have fully agreed with a decision to sack him and I felt the board were looking rather weak in the way they allowed him to string them along but if they had, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. As with the player exodus, events weren't planned but fortune has worked out to our advantage. It could have gone the other way, but it didn't, so in hindsight, I'm glad the board did nothing until it was forced on them, because by then they were able to appoint an exceptional manager who might not have been available in the Spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 If we're honest, the vast majority of posters support the manager in place at the time, unless things are going poorly. Cortese lost patience with Adkins and Pardew far faster than most of us. Regardless of whether you like him now or were happy with the manner of his appointment, the team did progress under MP's tenure. Should we have sacked him regardless? Difficult to justify much apart from a couple of bollóckings for the cup performances based on what we knew then. Based on what we know now, it's a lot easier - but if someone had asked me if we should dump Poch for Koeman while he was still in the job, I'd have probably said no (and have been wrong!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 (edited) We shouldn't forget that Pochettino was Cortese's choice in the first place. (Apparantly), NC was already plotting the change in November, although he didn't sack Adkins until January. I think the " greed /success " factor -(not necessarily a bad thing) was communicated to MP and he clearly felt safe with Cortese pulling the strings. I think a good squad system was in place, but in all fairness to Nigel Adkins, I do feel that he had taken us as far as he could. He was a v.g manager at Championship level, but that was about his limit. Pochettino inherited the same squad, but his tactical changes made the difference, and the team was supplemented by Wanyama and Lovren in areas that we clearly needed to improve. So far so good. I don't necessarily think they were MP choices,(?) but were probably on one of Les Reed's many lists but they proved to be good additions, and it showed in last season's resulting 8th place finish. Pochettino's ambition was derailed with Cortese's resignation / dismissal (call it what you will). It's clear now that MP felt uncertain after that - hence the delaying tactics whenever contracts were mentioned. IMHO Cortese may have played a significantly bigger role in Pochettino's desertion than has yet come to light, but time will tell. now onto HINDSIGHT. It's good to think you've made the right decision, and few would argue that with Koeman & Co. running the show , but the best way to judge his performances will be if we are better than 8th place in May. I don't think we would have sacked Pochettino, but Cortese might have done ....had he still been in charge, (such was the nature of his " succeed or be sacked " mentality). Hiring Koeman ...and seeing the dramatic changes in the team personnel ..and the results is something NO-ONE could have predicted....(except perhaps Ralph and Les,) who believed in him in the first place. Finally, try as I did, there was something about MP's mindset /attitude that bothered me. He convinced players they were a bit better than they thought they were, and were worth better than 8th place, and that " belief " and the players trust in him, obviously tipped the balance for those who wanted to leave. Many players who are good in one team, fail elsewhere simply because they lack the support they had in their original team, and I think that is starting to be seen for Shaw, Lambert and Lovren - (although they can cry quietly with their £100K /week contracts - if they need to). Pochettino....may find that he jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. If Spuds are only mid-table, and /or out of the Europa League by January, he may find Daniel Levy equally as vengeful as Cortese was. Edited 30 September, 2014 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 I'm torn. He's a good manager I'm sure, we did well, but now people are realising what many knew last year - saints had a very, very good squad last year and 8th was pretty much the minimum you'd expect. I just wonder how we'd have done had the osvaldo money been spent on a striker who'd played 30 games or so and really helped out. I am not sure that he is a good manager he is a good coach but management includes other things like Dealing with the Press Dealing with the Fans Involving all the players etc I just like Koeman he comes across well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingdomCome Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 It would have taken balls of solid steel to sack pochettino after last season. I presume in the hypothetical that Cortese would still be gone. In which case, the board would be facing a bigger back lash than they did during the summer. Even if the replacement was doing as well as Koeman is, he would only just be beginning to bring the fans on side. A huge risk that would need nothing short of perfection from the replacement. Obviously there is the parallel to draw with Adkins, and similarly, if the replacement was successful, the fans would forgive. The obvious answer to OP is that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it really is. With the benefit of it, I wouldn't hesitate in replacing pochettino with Koeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 No. He lead us to our best top flight season for many years, playing excellent football. Nobody would have sacked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 I am not sure that he is a good manager he is a good coach but management includes other things like Dealing with the Press Dealing with the Fans Involving all the players etc I just like Koeman he comes across well How about dealing with players? He seemed to get them onside and loyal very quickly. I would say that is good management? For a fan, is there a whole lot better than winning lots of games and playing good football, attacking teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Wasnt Cortese considering firing him at one point and had to be talked out of it by senior players ? Its easy to say in hindsight, but I think this is a increasing body of opinion that we did so well last year in spite of Pochettino, not because of him. He had no Plan B; we never turned games around He had his "favourites" and didnt make full use of his squad He had no respect for the fans in a way not seen since Georgio Burlinho He was busy whoring himself out to other clubs a long time hence. All I can say is I am glad how it turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Out of interest, what is Koeman's Plan B? Tell the players to play better when we go behind? Or leave it as it is because he knows we have the quality to get back into games? Then tell one player a week to score a worldie to win us the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxstone Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Out of interest, what is Koeman's Plan B? Tell the players to play better when we go behind? Or leave it as it is because he knows we have the quality to get back into games? Then tell one player a week to score a worldie to win us the game? Get them into the dressing room at half time, tearing them a new one so the team comes out firing on all cylinders in the second half and not running out of steam in the last 10 minutes of a match... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Tony Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 It was difficult to warm to him, and it always seemed clear he wasn't planning on sticking around for long. However, that probably doesn't warrant being sacked. It's all irrelevant anyway, really can't see him lasting at Spurs. He's not getting results in the league whilst continuing to disrespect all other competitions. A win on Sunday up there would be a massive, massive result in so many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Hard to recall the exact timeline, but once it became known that Pochettino had been offered a new contract that he was failing to agree, it was apparent to many that he was planning to go. At the time, I'd have fully agreed with a decision to sack him and I felt the board were looking rather weak in the way they allowed him to string them along but if they had, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. As with the player exodus, events weren't planned but fortune has worked out to our advantage. It could have gone the other way, but it didn't, so in hindsight, I'm glad the board did nothing until it was forced on them, because by then they were able to appoint an exceptional manager who might not have been available in the Spring. And £2 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 What is this about? U wot m8? ?????????? Not heard anything about this please enlighten me?????????? It has been reported a fair few times that he went to the PSG vs Chelsea UCL game and was looking around to see what other jobs were on offer. His name was in the frame for the PSG job around that time, as well as others in Europe. I think, but could be wrong, that the story was that he was there with his agent, ostensibly for scouting but in reality it was job hunting. Of course I am sure someone will be able to verify or dismiss this, but I think the likes of Guan or another ITKer mentioned it (apologies to Guan if it wasn't you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Out of interest, what is Koeman's Plan B? Tell the players to play better when we go behind? Or leave it as it is because he knows we have the quality to get back into games? Then tell one player a week to score a worldie to win us the game? I would say that RK is more likely to make substitutions that are not like for like and to instruct the players to change the intensity of their pressing and to attempt more or less through balls or long kicks. But I admit this is all a feeling I have. I have not attempted to quantify this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Targett replacing Tadich had me a little worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Targett replacing Tadich had me a little worried. That may not have been tactical, maybe Tadic was feeling some tightness, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 That may not have been tactical, maybe Tadic was feeling some tightness, or something. I assumed it was to strengthen the defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Wasnt Cortese considering firing him at one point and had to be talked out of it by senior players ? Its easy to say in hindsight, but I think this is a increasing body of opinion that we did so well last year in spite of Pochettino, not because of him. He had no Plan B; we never turned games around He had his "favourites" and didnt make full use of his squad He had no respect for the fans in a way not seen since Georgio Burlinho He was busy whoring himself out to other clubs a long time hence. All I can say is I am glad how it turned out. In spite of? Really? I can't help but feel that is re-writing history. He is a good manager that did a good job here. Could someone else have got us 8th, or possibly better? Yeah, potentially. Could there have been managers that would have done worse? Without doubt. Let's not act like Poch was holding us back in some way, which "in spite of" suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry the Badger Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Mental. No, we shouldn't have sacked him, he was doing an excellent job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Wasnt Cortese considering firing him at one point and had to be talked out of it by senior players ? Its easy to say in hindsight, but I think this is a increasing body of opinion that we did so well last year in spite of Pochettino, not because of him. He had no Plan B; we never turned games around He had his "favourites" and didnt make full use of his squad He had no respect for the fans in a way not seen since Georgio Burlinho He was busy whoring himself out to other clubs a long time hence. All I can say is I am glad how it turned out. Spot on. We had the one of the best squads in the league + our history last season - to finish 8th was no great shakes. I was glad to see the back of him and was never a big fan. Possesion stats won over some, but not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Targett replacing Tadich had me a little worried. I assumed it was to strengthen the defense. I saw it the same as Redslo that we were 2-1 up with only stoppage time to go, so an extra defender seemed to have some logic to it. Being on the pitch for a Premier League game, regardless of the short time, was also a nice reward to Matt Target for his performance in the League Cup and a step towards having him ready as Bertrand's understudy. As far as I know, that may have been Targett's first experience on the field for a League game. Good man management by Koeman without risking the result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 It has been reported a fair few times that he went to the PSG vs Chelsea UCL game and was looking around to see what other jobs were on offer. His name was in the frame for the PSG job around that time, as well as others in Europe. I think, but could be wrong, that the story was that he was there with his agent, ostensibly for scouting but in reality it was job hunting. Of course I am sure someone will be able to verify or dismiss this, but I think the likes of Guan or another ITKer mentioned it (apologies to Guan if it wasn't you). The situation may have been confused by the fact that he was a go between for several french clubs and Bielsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 Just going back to the OP, I'm with those who think he should have been sacked on the information that was available at the time that indicated he did not intend to fulfil his contract. I wouldn't agree that there were performance grounds to sack him. Although he hadn't proved to be the step up from Nigel Adkins that may have been hoped, the team were playing attractive football, even if results had fallen to around average. In the end, the league position owed more to the good start to season 2013/14 whilst the points total was 13 points below 6th place and 8 points below the team above us. Not as good as it looked at one stage. So, not sackable on performance grounds but sackable on loyalty grounds. Having said that, I'm very glad he wasn't sacked because I think it is unlikely we would be where we are now if he'd been ousted sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 If I'm honest, I didn't care if he stayed or went after the Sunderland game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 If I'm honest, I didn't care if he stayed or went after the Sunderland game. That Sunderland game killed it for me, if I'm honest. He had no interest, no intention and no care about that game. The selection showed it and the attitude of the management and players showed it. We could have easily achieved a Hull City last season and reached the final, easily, but it would have required a manager who gave a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 That Sunderland game killed it for me, if I'm honest. He had no interest, no intention and no care about that game. The selection showed it and the attitude of the management and players showed it. We could have easily achieved a Hull City last season and reached the final, easily, but it would have required a manager who gave a damn. Totally. I was utterly fuming for weeks afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 If I'm honest, I didn't care if he stayed or went after the Sunderland game. Same with me. His refusal to speak English never endeared me to him either. Glad he is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 If I'm honest, I didn't care if he stayed or went after the Sunderland game. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 The way that Adkins was treated I would not have been at all surprised if Cortese hadn't have got shot of Poch too if he had stayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 The way that Adkins was treated I would not have been at all surprised if Cortese hadn't have got shot of Poch too if he had stayed. fair point. but would cortese fire Poch for Koeman? I am not so sure. for (highly unlikely) a Mancini, yes IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 fair point. but would cortese fire Poch for Koeman? I am not so sure. for (highly unlikely) a Mancini, yes IMO Di Matteo was lined up at many stages during NC's reign, I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 30 September, 2014 Share Posted 30 September, 2014 fair point. but would cortese fire Poch for Koeman? I am not so sure. for (highly unlikely) a Mancini, yes IMO Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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