SAINTS keen on stadium expansion

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I don't think ticket prices would go down if we expanded the stadium. It's a nice thought, but I don't see it. I can't see the club passing on some of the new TV deal money to the fans by virtue of lower tickets prices either. FFP makes every source of revenue absolutely vital to optimise.

[djharvey]

Brighton makes sense but isn't Pompey's stadium completely inadequate for a World Cup? It only holds 21,100 according to my in depth googling.

 

It would their opportunity to re develop fratton or build new and get significant help with the finance.

[stevy777_x]

So if you couldn't go to those games anyway, not sure what point you were making in that original post.

 

At what point did I say I couldn t go to these games? I didn t go to them as they were sold out before I was eligible to buy tickets.

My point was that with us competing for the top places, games against top clubs are selling out very fast and it is getting very difficult for fans who don't go regularly to games to get tickets.

[hypochondriac]

At what point did I say I couldn t go to these games? I didn t go to them as they were sold out before I was eligible to buy tickets.

My point was that with us competing for the top places, games against top clubs are selling out very fast and it is getting very difficult for fans who don't go regularly to games to get tickets.

 

No it isn't. I went to Liverpool easily. I just asked on here or you can check twitter, always a few tickets going spare.

[Saint_Jonny]

No it isn't. I went to Liverpool easily. I just asked on here or you can check twitter, always a few tickets going spare.

 

There are plenty of people who will only trust buying from source, to be fair to the bloke.

[hypochondriac]

There are plenty of people who will only trust buying from source, to be fair to the bloke.

 

They will miss out then. Don't see why it's a problem to meet up with someone before the game in a pub and get a ticket. Done it a bunch of times.

[Sour Mash]

All irrelevant anyway. So what if Liverpool or Chelsea at home sells out quickly?

[ericb]

To be honest i'm not massively sympathetic to people only coming to one or two games a season (even from overseas) the way the current system works is that those that go most regularly get a ticket for every game, the next lot who got to a large amount get most games, the ones restricted to fewer have to plan, pick and choose and the rest are left with what they get.

 

It's the fairest system by a mile and the attendance records show it works, increasing capacity because a few games sell out is stupid and not really worth it.

 

I know that sounds harsh but it's the truth.

[Leicestersaint]

We need a bigger ground.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

We need a bigger ground.

 

What substantiates this though? For the level of investment required there isn't really any supporting evidence which says it would make financial sense.

[Dr Who?]

#weneedabiggerground

 

#progression

 

#wemarchon

[The9]

I'd like us to have a bigger ground just for the hell of it, but it doesn't seem viable given the numbers turning up at the moment. It may be the last-minute nature of the Block 43 (or as with Burnley 44) availability, but for some reason we don't seem to have a bunch of people waiting to snap up available tickets for some games.

 

Just about selling out the ground for a couple of months when the team was in the top 4, and not quite selling out against lower sides when the team is as successful as they've been in the past 25 years - but hasn't scored much for a couple of games, all seem to point at the option that the ground is pretty near to being the right size.

 

Yes we could probably shift another 10-20k tickets for matches against Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea, but the payback period from the additional profit by doing that compared to the cost of expanding the stadium probably runs into 20 years, and is too long term to make any assumptions about ongoing club success. Plus the main revenue stream isn't matchday any more, it's tv income.

 

Europa League matches on Thursday nights will probably struggle to sell out (the first one or two will sell out, after the novelty wears off others could well depend on the opposition) and the ease of getting those tickets and total cost of paying for the matches in the Prem on top will mean that demand for games overall will drop as a percentage of capacity, even though total numbers attending will be much higher from more matches. A lot of people are already picking and choosing Cup games, that will only increase the likelihood of people missing some here and there - which is habit-forming in itself.

 

In short, we're near enough the right sized ground that a minor expansion would not be viable due to economies of scale (the cost per new seat would be much higher), and a major expansion wouldn't be viable because not enough people will come to the matches which don't feature top opponents and it would take too long to pay back.

[david in sweden]

What substantiates this though? For the level of investment required there isn't really any supporting evidence which says it would make financial sense.

 

...and even if we did ....a platform for trains to stop alongside SMS ...and a larger car park .....would be in order......

[Wurzel]

Ignoring the ins and outs of whether we need to expand or not, has ANYONE expanded their stadium or moved to a bigger one in the last 20 years or so and NOT seen an increase in average attendance afterwards? I'm thinking possibly Wolves, who couldn't have timed it worse if they tried, but can't think of any others.

[angelman]

to me, we would have to have at least 22-25k / waiting list for STs before considering expansion. As others say, the less attractive teams fail to sell out.

[Matthew Le God]

to me, we would have to have at least 22-25k / waiting list for STs before considering expansion. As others say, the less attractive teams fail to sell out.

 

So if Saints planned to put another 8,000 tier on the Kingland to take it unto roughly 40k, you'd only do it if we had a 22,000 to 25,000 waiting list for season tickets?

Edited 25 March, 2015 by Matthew Le God

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Ignoring the ins and outs of whether we need to expand or not, has ANYONE expanded their stadium or moved to a bigger one in the last 20 years or so and NOT seen an increase in average attendance afterwards? I'm thinking possibly Wolves, who couldn't have timed it worse if they tried, but can't think of any others.

 

I'm not sure we can consider a 'if you build it they will come' approach - it may be that all those expansions were done after the clubs qualified that they would be filled.

 

Also, I think we need to add Cardiff to the list to Wolves.

[Redslo]

It would their opportunity to re develop fratton or build new and get significant help with the finance.

 

Ok. But it seems crazy for England to bid for a World Cup intending to spend a lot of unnecessary money on stadiums when England is one of the few countries in the world that already has the necessary stadiums in place. But then FIFA pretty much requires craziness in the World Cup bidding process.

[The9]

...and even if we did ....a platform for trains to stop alongside SMS ...and a larger car park .....would be in order......

 

The train platform thing has been done to death - it would be at the club's expense, there are at least two train stations under 15 minutes' walk away, and there would be little incentive for the train company to run a service down that line anyway.

 

As for a larger car park, that's hardly likely if they're expanding the stadium onto the surrounding land in a limited space.

 

Much better to get back involved with cheap transport and park and ride schemes to reduce the number of people driving. I'd never drive to a match if there was anything resembling a cheap and time-relevant public transport system going to Hedge End - as it is I drive to and from every game (albeit sometimes not until the following day).

[Patrick Bateman]

I'd like us to have a bigger ground just for the hell of it, but it doesn't seem viable given the numbers turning up at the moment. It may be the last-minute nature of the Block 43 (or as with Burnley 44) availability, but for some reason we don't seem to have a bunch of people waiting to snap up available tickets for some games.

 

Just about selling out the ground for a couple of months when the team was in the top 4, and not quite selling out against lower sides when the team is as successful as they've been in the past 25 years - but hasn't scored much for a couple of games, all seem to point at the option that the ground is pretty near to being the right size.

 

Yes we could probably shift another 10-20k tickets for matches against Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea, but the payback period from the additional profit by doing that compared to the cost of expanding the stadium probably runs into 20 years, and is too long term to make any assumptions about ongoing club success. Plus the main revenue stream isn't matchday any more, it's tv income.

 

Europa League matches on Thursday nights will probably struggle to sell out (the first one or two will sell out, after the novelty wears off others could well depend on the opposition) and the ease of getting those tickets and total cost of paying for the matches in the Prem on top will mean that demand for games overall will drop as a percentage of capacity, even though total numbers attending will be much higher from more matches. A lot of people are already picking and choosing Cup games, that will only increase the likelihood of people missing some here and there - which is habit-forming in itself.

 

In short, we're near enough the right sized ground that a minor expansion would not be viable due to economies of scale (the cost per new seat would be much higher), and a major expansion wouldn't be viable because not enough people will come to the matches which don't feature top opponents and it would take too long to pay back.

 

We can close the thread with this.

[The9]

So if Saints planned to put another 8,000 tier on the Kingland to take it unto roughly 40k, you'd only do it if we had a 22,000 to 25,000 waiting list for season tickets?

 

I think what he was saying was either we need a minimum of 22k STs (no idea why use a range there when the lower parameter is the trigger point) or a waiting list for them under the assumption that the club caps it below that. A waiting list with 22,000 people on it is clearly not going to happen and is too ridiculous to think that was even the argument at this point.

[brett24]

SKD will not concede another goal this season, he will be epic.

[The9]

Ignoring the ins and outs of whether we need to expand or not, has ANYONE expanded their stadium or moved to a bigger one in the last 20 years or so and NOT seen an increase in average attendance afterwards? I'm thinking possibly Wolves, who couldn't have timed it worse if they tried, but can't think of any others.

 

I know you're asking a slightly tangential question, but worth re-stressing that the decision is not about whether average attendance increases, it will, it's about whether it will increase enough to bring in revenue to cover the cost.

 

The answer is "anyone who got relegated, but not everyone who got relegated". I've included new grounds as well as expansion.

 

Villa updated in '95-96 and dropped from 36k to 31k in 2000/1 but that was still more than the 29k from before expanding in 1995.

Cardiff and Fulham expanded and so have crowds (til this season post-relegation).

Hull crowds are in line with the division they're in, Championship levels around 18k, 24k in the Prem. Both more than before the move (but they're also playing in higher divisions)

Man City crowds dipped from 45/46k down to 42/40k in 2006/7 but that's still more than the 35k at Maine Road.

Man U filled in the corners in 2006, having added a 3rd tier in 2000 and 1996 and each time filled it.

Newcastle added 15k to their crowds in 2000 and in their recent Championship season still got 7k more than the previous capacity.

Norwich were still regularly getting 6k more than before they redid the stadium in the early 2000s even when they dropped into L1.

Saints in the Championship relegation season still averaged 2,500 more than the last years at The Dell (and 5,000 more failing to get promoted from L1).

Sunderland got nearly 10k more at the bottom of Championship than at Roker.

Swansea gained 6k fans getting into L1 and moving to Liberty, and another 4k since.

Spurs dipped under 30k for one season after redeveloping in the mid 90s but it was still higher than their 27k ceiling from the 1990s all-seater redevelopment and they're 5k higher now so it may have been a restricted capacity that season.

 

Pretty much everyone is the same, really.

 

Except Darlington of course. I'll look them up now.

Edited 25 March, 2015 by The9

[The9]

Darlington moved to the 25,000 capacity (10,000 used) Darlington Arena in 2003, jumped from 3k to 5k attendances in the first season, though that was still lower than the 5k+ crowds they got at Feethams in 2000 losing in the playoffs, they then slid from 4k to just under 2k attendances as the team slid down League 2 and have never really recovered, getting the boot from the Conference North in 2012 and reforming as Darlington 1883 at level 9 of the League structure in front of 1000-1300-ish groundsharing with Bishop's Auckland.

[CB Fry]

I'd like us to have a bigger ground just for the hell of it, but it doesn't seem viable given the numbers turning up at the moment. It may be the last-minute nature of the Block 43 (or as with Burnley 44) availability, but for some reason we don't seem to have a bunch of people waiting to snap up available tickets for some games.

 

Just about selling out the ground for a couple of months when the team was in the top 4, and not quite selling out against lower sides when the team is as successful as they've been in the past 25 years - but hasn't scored much for a couple of games, all seem to point at the option that the ground is pretty near to being the right size.

 

Yes we could probably shift another 10-20k tickets for matches against Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea, but the payback period from the additional profit by doing that compared to the cost of expanding the stadium probably runs into 20 years, and is too long term to make any assumptions about ongoing club success. Plus the main revenue stream isn't matchday any more, it's tv income.

 

Europa League matches on Thursday nights will probably struggle to sell out (the first one or two will sell out, after the novelty wears off others could well depend on the opposition) and the ease of getting those tickets and total cost of paying for the matches in the Prem on top will mean that demand for games overall will drop as a percentage of capacity, even though total numbers attending will be much higher from more matches. A lot of people are already picking and choosing Cup games, that will only increase the likelihood of people missing some here and there - which is habit-forming in itself.

 

In short, we're near enough the right sized ground that a minor expansion would not be viable due to economies of scale (the cost per new seat would be much higher), and a major expansion wouldn't be viable because not enough people will come to the matches which don't feature top opponents and it would take too long to pay back.

This is all well and good but you seem to have overlooked the fact that some people said that man would never walk on the moon.

[eelpie]

With FFP rules, the benefits of increasing income may lead to more and more thinking of building new stands/expanding. 10k seats will bring in a POTENTIAL extra, say, £5.5m per season in ticket sales alone.

 

What would be more useful is safe standing. Does anyone know whether this would allow more people, or are things going to be so restricted that there would be no increase in capacity? Surely that is a much more sensible way of going about things.

 

If safe standing were implemented, would this not increase stadium capacity without needing to build on the Kingsland?

[eelpie]

This is all well and good but you seem to have overlooked the fact that some people said that man would never walk on the moon.

 

But one man did the journey and all he saw was the other side of the moon.

[The9]

If safe standing were implemented, would this not increase stadium capacity without needing to build on the Kingsland?

 

It would, but it's a long way off and shouldn't factor in any considerations at this point. There's only one football stadium in England that's even trialling it, and that hasn't been redeveloped yet.

[eelpie]

It would, but it's a long way off and shouldn't factor in any considerations at this point. There's only one football stadium in England that's even trialling it, and that hasn't been redeveloped yet.[/quote

 

But costs are a big consideration

[djharvey]

Maybe lower the pitch slightly and add several rows of seats, would bring the crowd a little closer and could increase capacity by a few thousand. issues would possibly be roof cover, water table, sight lines and any minimum pitch to seat distances.

man city are in the process of doing this without lowering the pitch.

[suewhistle]

Who knows how the calculations would work. When St. Marys was built the costings were based (courtesy of Brian Hunt, the director) on crowds of a third each 18k/24k/28k+.

 

Capital is cheaper now, there may be other considerations like tax losses, or converting income streams into fixed assets: gawd knows. I wouldn't be confident of what will happen, let alone be dismissive of other people's views. Inflation this month is 0%, so I'll be interested in how the new season ticket prices pan out. I detect, from the people I know [or eavesdrop in the pub ] rumbles of discontent at the cost - we don't have London salaries. A larger ground would allow price stability, and probably more importantly for the long term, concessions for younger groups. I went to The Dell regularly as a student, and it cost me about the pprice of 3/4 pints. Football has far outstripped the rate of inflation and priced out certain groups. I can (just about) afford Itchen stand prices, but I appreciate the atmosphere a full ground brings and would have no problems with cheaper areas.

 

Looks like we'd better fill the ground on next season's European nights just to help along the decision!

[david in sweden]

I know you're asking a slightly tangential question, but worth re-stressing that the decision is not about whether average attendance increases, it will, it's about whether it will increase enough to bring in revenue to cover the cost.

 

The answer is "anyone who got relegated, but not everyone who got relegated". I've included new grounds as well as expansion.

 

Saints in the Championship relegation season still averaged 2,500 more than the last years at The Dell (5,000 more failing to get promoted from L1).

 

 

Interesting stats. but surely the comparison with the last " Dell years " is corrupted by the fact that the all-seater Dell was limited to around 15,000 ..allowing for the quota for visiting fans. It's obvious there were many Saints' fans who - not being season ticket holders - couldn't get in on a match-to-match basis ..I was one of them.

 

In the pre-Hillsborough period, when there was both terraces and seats in the East / West stands crowds it was not unusual to get crowds well over the 20K mark, and frequently much more. I was jammed into the terraces under the West, together with 31,043 others for the " old Dell record crowd " v. Man Utd 1970...we lost 0-3 but were good enough to have got at least one point....on another day.

 

If this truly is the start of a new era at SMS, and we get regular Euro football....a 40,000+ stadium doesn't seem unrealistic given the amount of money Katarina has already invested in the club / Staplewood etc.

Edited 26 March, 2015 by david in sweden

[Joneth]

Don't want to come across all ITK, but I have heard that the club have made inquiries with contractors about expanding the Kingsland so I guess that means they've done some maths and they think it might stack up.

[Sour Mash]

Don't want to come across all ITK, but I have heard that the club have made inquiries with contractors about expanding the Kingsland so I guess that means they've done some maths and they think it might stack up.

 

Why would they make enquiries to contractors? You'd get the design, planning etc sorted first.

[Bearsy]

Why would they make enquiries to contractors? You'd get the design, planning etc sorted first.

 

wow seems like this is more progressed than we thought!

[JonnyOldBoy]

60,000 all seater stadium, new build at Cadnam with a ground share with the Cherries..... ;-)

[Joneth]

Why would they make enquiries to contractors? You'd get the design, planning etc sorted first.

 

 

Not really sure what kind of 'inquiry' it is and what that means for how far along it is. Sounded like it was a bit of an initial 'would you be interested' type conversation than anything official. Don't want to speculate too much as I'm not the 'primary' source as it were.

[suewhistle]

60,000 all seater stadium, new build at Cadnam with a ground share with the Cherries..... ;-)

 

I had a brief chat with a Cherries fan on the train from Brighton on Saturday. He was going to see Saints play with some friends because they couldn't get tickets at Bournemouth, and he explained that their ground only held (was it?) 11K, and the facilities didn't meet Premiership standards. He said there were rumours they might play at St. Mary's, but I've no reason to believe Cherries rumours are any more reliable than Saint's ones!

[scotty]

I had a brief chat with a Cherries fan on the train from Brighton on Saturday. He was going to see Saints play with some friends because they couldn't get tickets at Bournemouth, and he explained that their ground only held (was it?) 11K, and the facilities didn't meet Premiership standards. He said there were rumours they might play at St. Mary's, but I've no reason to believe Cherries rumours are any more reliable than Saint's ones!

 

They're supposed to be expanding their own capacity to 15k, I think. Can't see them playing more than one league game at St Marys next season., or any other.

[Sour Mash]

Not really sure what kind of 'inquiry' it is and what that means for how far along it is. Sounded like it was a bit of an initial 'would you be interested' type conversation than anything official. Don't want to speculate too much as I'm not the 'primary' source as it were.

Fair enough, just sounds pretty unlikely that's all.

[Matthew Le God]

I had a brief chat with a Cherries fan on the train from Brighton on Saturday. He was going to see Saints play with some friends because they couldn't get tickets at Bournemouth, and he explained that their ground only held (was it?) 11K, and the facilities didn't meet Premiership standards. He said there were rumours they might play at St. Mary's, but I've no reason to believe Cherries rumours are any more reliable than Saint's ones!

 

There is no rule on Premier League minimum capacity.

 

To meet the Premier League standards it is largely about things like media provision and given the money they'd get they could sort it out over the summer. There is no need for a ground share and I struggle to see why Saints would agree to it in any case. I doubt Hampshire's police force would like to deal with 20,000 Cherries fans in Southampton 19+ times in 2015/16.

[Mystic Force]

Why would they make enquiries to contractors? You'd get the design, planning etc sorted first.

 

If i was putting on a new kitchen i would talk to a builder first to get an approximate cost to know what i was in for and if i could afforf it before i got my planning permission. Another factor on larger projects mught be availability of a company to do the work.

[Sour Mash]

If i was putting on a new kitchen i would talk to a builder first to get an approximate cost to know what i was in for and if i could afforf it before i got my planning permission. Another factor on larger projects mught be availability of a company to do the work.

That's not how major contracting works. We're not putting in a new kitchen.

[Bearsy]

That's not how major contracting works. We're not putting in a new kitchen.

 

it's D&B bro. We're like new stadium pls, and they're like what type, and we're like, ur problem

[Big Bad Bob]

If i was putting on a new kitchen i would talk to a builder first to get an approximate cost to know what i was in for and if i could afforf it before i got my planning permission. Another factor on larger projects mught be availability of a company to do the work.

 

Doesn't work like that, we wanted to build an extension and wanted to know approximately how much it would cost so we phoned a few builders, they all said that we had to have architect drawings before they could even start estimating. So we gave up and moved....

[Bearsy]

when i went to Build-A-Bear workshop, I just went straight in and started building my bear without architect plans, and made decisions about what extras and type of hat and squeaking heart etc I wanted as I went along.

 

Edit: It come out pretty good + only slightly over budget

Edited 26 March, 2015 by Bearsy

[sandwichsaint]

Maybe lower the pitch slightly and add several rows of seats, would bring the crowd a little closer and could increase capacity by a few thousand. issues would possibly be roof cover, water table, sight lines and any minimum pitch to seat distances.

man city are in the process of doing this without lowering the pitch.

 

Periscopes?

[Goatboy]

Periscopes?

 

Just replace all the seats with really big sofas and we can all squish up a bit. Cosy.

[Tamesaint]

This is all well and good but you seem to have overlooked the fact that some people said that man would never walk on the moon.

 

... and CB Fry wins the "I miss Turkish so much" award.

 

CB Fry without Turkish is like Morecambe without Wise ... or perhaps more appropriately s hit without flies.

[captainchris]

Increased capacity would automatically increase attendances whilst we are getting results.

The reason is that many assume they will not be able to buy a ticket if they decide to attend only a few days before kickoff. People just don't bother to try and do something else.

Also when tickets are left they are usually within the Chapel end. There is a reason for this - no one want to sit in a mortuary at a football match... Well obviously a few people do but lots don't....

If our ambitions are to remain near the top of this league we need a bigger stadium. Our attendances are effectively full houses. The bigger the stadium the more people who don't have season tickets can plan to go at relatively short notice.... If we had a capacity of 35,000 now the average attendance would be at 2000 higher...