Talking Tactics: Koeman gives Saints fans reasons to be cheerful

[Colinjb]

I'd say Koeman has already dropped a bit of a clanger with the defensive West Brom side (especially given that we only sqeaked past them by one goal last season), but that it was understandable given that it was his first home match in the Premier League, and all the recordings in the world aren't going to prepare you for the reality of it.

 

What's nice is that in the 2 seasons we've been up, we've gone from a clueless side at the top level that got ambushed and owned by an experienced and clinical Wigan side in our first home game, to an experienced Prem side ourselves. We're usually able to make the right decisions to close out a game - even the majority of the signings without Prem experience are at a level where you know they know exactly what to do to see through a tight contest (eg Alderweireld). Admittedly we've been at that level for a good 18 months, but it's worth noting that Koeman won't need to teach them that, compared to the job Adkins had on his hands.

 

Which (going slightly off on a tangent) still continues to merit examination as his open naive side changed into the vastly more solid unit that dragged us out of the mire just before his sacking. On the basis of the players at his disposal, he perhaps did under achieve by having that bad start in the league yet he did get to grips with it, eventually.

[The9]

Which (going slightly off on a tangent) still continues to merit examination as his open naive side changed into the vastly more solid unit that dragged us out of the mire just before his sacking. On the basis of the players at his disposal, he perhaps did under achieve by having that bad start in the league yet he did get to grips with it, eventually.

 

I think Adkins did very well to keep a side motivated and positive when it had practically no experience and was making individual errors and getting punished on a weekly basis (Fox's header at City, Fonte dwelling on the ball against Wigan, the entire defence hoofing it back to them with Mayuka up top when home to Man U and 2-1 up, Arsenal away generally etc). Though the fairly early 4-1 win against Villa was the signal to me that actually we were just having a bad run of fixtures rather than having a bad team, it took some skill to get them out of that awful schedule still with the confidence in their ability to prove they were good enough. Playing well and still losing can be every bit as crushing as just playing poorly, if in the wrong hands.

 

As you said, Adkins completely had a handle on it by the time he got sacked.

Edited 8 September, 2014 by The9

[Beckenham Saint]

Which (going slightly off on a tangent) still continues to merit examination as his open naive side changed into the vastly more solid unit that dragged us out of the mire just before his sacking. On the basis of the players at his disposal, he perhaps did under achieve by having that bad start in the league yet he did get to grips with it, eventually.

 

The players Adkins had at his disposal? Is that the same Nigel Adkins who had to go to Manchester City on the first day of the season with Dan Seaborne on the bench? In the season that Steve de Ridder inexplicably got Premier League game time and when Kelvin Davis, Jos Hooiveld and Danny Fox were all first team starters? What a team!

[Colinjb]

The players Adkins had at his disposal? Is that the same Nigel Adkins who had to go to Manchester City on the first day of the season with Dan Seaborne on the bench? In the season that Steve de Ridder inexplicably got Premier League game time and when Kelvin Davis, Jos Hooiveld and Danny Fox were all first team starters? What a team!

 

And equally future England international's Lallana, Shaw and Lambert. French starter Morgan Schneiderlin and premier league standard Boruc, S. Davis, Clyne and Ward-Prowse.

 

You raise a fair point regarding squad depth but the first eleven was fine.

[Beckenham Saint]

And equally future England international's Lallana, Shaw and Lambert. French starter Morgan Schneiderlin and premier league standard Boruc, S. Davis, Clyne and Ward-Prowse.

 

You raise a fair point regarding squad depth but the first eleven was fine.

 

But does the squad as a whole not relate to your initial point? "On the basis of the players at his disposal, he perhaps did underachieve" - the players he had at his disposal were pretty dire past the first XI, and even then we were weak in certain positions on the park! If Adkins had the squad we have now then I believe he would do a great job of it. We had gone 12 games unbeaten when he got sacked, and we were regularly fielding teams that were full of dross and had no room in the squad for injury or suspension.

 

Going 12 games unbeaten and being the right side of the relegation zone, with the players he had at his disposal, was him overachieving, in my eyes!

[The9]

Did we ever win after going behind under Mopo?

 

Also talk of us struggling against hoof ball? Didnt we only beat the better sides (top 10) in the league 2/3 x?

 

So we werent great against hoof or passing sides?? How did we finish 8th?

 

We were poor at defending against teams who usually set up to play either on the counter or using long balls - the obvious examples at St Mary's were West Brom 2012/13, Newcastle 2012/13 (home and away actually) and Villa (2013/14). As for the top sides, who were usually set up for a short passing game and thus more susceptible to our pressing game, we often gave them a better game than you'd expect from a midtable side, but still lost more than we won.

 

It was pretty obvious when Arsenal only played well for 10 minutes at St Mary's in January, that any top team playing at their usual high tempo and with a specific gameplan to switch the ball quickly was able to beat us. The same went for the crappy sides who had the opportunity to test Yoshida over the top without a defensive shield.

 

And on top of that, we lost to bloody Cardiff at home last season, which I still haven't worked out.

[sadoldgit]

The players Adkins had at his disposal? Is that the same Nigel Adkins who had to go to Manchester City on the first day of the season with Dan Seaborne on the bench? In the season that Steve de Ridder inexplicably got Premier League game time and when Kelvin Davis, Jos Hooiveld and Danny Fox were all first team starters? What a team!

 

It would have been interesting to see what Adkins could have done with more time and a couple more transfer windows, but we shall never know now. I hope he gets another chance with a Premiership club soon.

[The9]

And equally future England international's Lallana, Shaw and Lambert. French starter Morgan Schneiderlin and premier league standard Boruc, S. Davis, Clyne and Ward-Prowse.

 

You raise a fair point regarding squad depth but the first eleven was fine.

 

Same problem as last year, and the main reason it was obvious Cortese's assault on Europe was doomed to fail, despite us going into the match with Arsenal in mid November last season in position to go top, albeit having had a relatively easy schedule until then.

 

We were fine as long as we managed to only use about 14 players all season. Once you got into Fox, Hooiveld, Gallagher* and Guly territory we looked more like a lower mid-table side than a top 6 one.

 

*young, hungry and guaranteed to improve.

Edited 8 September, 2014 by The9

[The9]

It would have been interesting to see what Adkins could have done with more time and a couple more transfer windows, but we shall never know now. I hope he gets another chance with a Premiership club soon.

 

Interesting to see the struggle he's had getting Reading up - one of the reasons I thought he was nuts for taking the job with them almost certain to go down - if he'd sat out and waited for the next season he'd have been a prime candidate for any of Palace, Fulham or Norwich, and all of them were more likely to stay up than the Reading job he took. Now he's stuck with the tag of a Championship level manager who once got a team promoted of the Championship (and second to the team he can't currently get promoted at that).

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Interesting to see the struggle he's had getting Reading up - one of the reasons I thought he was nuts for taking the job with them almost certain to go down - if he'd sat out and waited for the next season he'd have been a prime candidate for any of Palace, Fulham or Norwich, and all of them were more likely to stay up than the Reading job he took. Now he's stuck with the tag of a Championship level manager who once got a team promoted of the Championship (and second to the team he can't currently get promoted at that).

 

The Reading fans in the office (who clearly follow their, and therefore his progress more closely than me) say Adkins has had a hard time of it since he went in.

 

Limited funds and best players sold from underneath him. It's a small sample size (2), but both are positive on NA and the job he has done there. They say realistically anymore than what he has done would be a minor miracle.

 

Just passing on what they have told me.

[Beckenham Saint]

Interesting to see the struggle he's had getting Reading up - one of the reasons I thought he was nuts for taking the job with them almost certain to go down - if he'd sat out and waited for the next season he'd have been a prime candidate for any of Palace, Fulham or Norwich, and all of them were more likely to stay up than the Reading job he took. Now he's stuck with the tag of a Championship level manager who once got a team promoted of the Championship (and second to the team he can't currently get promoted at that).

 

Sounds like he's been having a tough time of it at Reading but the fans do seem to like him. They've had to sell certain players, some with and without his consent just to stave off administration so he's been playing a lot of kids, I think he's given 4 or 5 youngsters their professional debut's this year, and doing a good job of it. I do believe he could and should have done better than Reading, but to have gotten then to within one point of the playoffs last year and having won four of the seven games they've played this year, I don't think he's having as bad a time as it looks!

[Colinjb]

Sounds like he's been having a tough time of it at Reading but the fans do seem to like him. They've had to sell certain players, some with and without his consent just to stave off administration so he's been playing a lot of kids, I think he's given 4 or 5 youngsters their professional debut's this year, and doing a good job of it. I do believe he could and should have done better than Reading, but to have gotten then to within one point of the playoffs last year and having won four of the seven games they've played this year, I don't think he's having as bad a time as it looks!

 

Just where did Reading's premier league money go? Covering existing debts or siphoned off to Russia?

[Colinjb]

But does the squad as a whole not relate to your initial point? "On the basis of the players at his disposal, he perhaps did underachieve" - the players he had at his disposal were pretty dire past the first XI, and even then we were weak in certain positions on the park! If Adkins had the squad we have now then I believe he would do a great job of it. We had gone 12 games unbeaten when he got sacked, and we were regularly fielding teams that were full of dross and had no room in the squad for injury or suspension.

 

Going 12 games unbeaten and being the right side of the relegation zone, with the players he had at his disposal, was him overachieving, in my eyes!

 

As I said in my original point, perhaps he underachieved. Good debate though.

 

I'm sure it wasn't twelves games at his point of dismissal. Only four or five league games (which also included a 1-5 home humping by Chelsea in the cup. Made amends with the 2-2 draw at Stamford bridge in his last game in charge mind.)

[The9]

The Reading fans in the office (who clearly follow their, and therefore his progress more closely than me) say Adkins has had a hard time of it since he went in.

 

Limited funds and best players sold from underneath him. It's a small sample size (2), but both are positive on NA and the job he has done there. They say realistically anymore than what he has done would be a minor miracle.

 

Just passing on what they have told me.

 

Yeah, I'd heard they were playing a bunch of kids - saw them against Newport in the League Cup earlier in the season and althought they rested a few they were unrecognisable from the Prem side of 2 years ago and it was a fairly close game. They didn't seem to have much of a plan either, but I guess that happens at that stage of development with any disjointed team - I remember Saints (reserves) looked pretty disjointed at Stevenage a couple of seasons back, and still hammered them score-wise.

[sadoldgit]

Interesting to see the struggle he's had getting Reading up - one of the reasons I thought he was nuts for taking the job with them almost certain to go down - if he'd sat out and waited for the next season he'd have been a prime candidate for any of Palace, Fulham or Norwich, and all of them were more likely to stay up than the Reading job he took. Now he's stuck with the tag of a Championship level manager who once got a team promoted of the Championship (and second to the team he can't currently get promoted at that).

 

Yeah, I didnt get the Reading move. I am sure he would have picked up another Premiership job down the line eventually.