Talking Tactics: Koeman gives Saints fans reasons to be cheerful

[Batman]

Agree, he just didn't have a plan B.

 

What is a plan b these days?

 

To me, it seems the new fashionable thing to say at the mo

Edited 4 September, 2014 by Batman

[aintforever]

What is a plan b these days?

 

A change in tactics that effects the outcome of the game.

[verlaine1979]

What is a plan b these days?

 

To me, it seems the new fashionable thing to say at the mo

 

Mhmm, for big clubs it equates to bringing on one of the good players they couldn't fit in their first XI to see if they can do better. For smaller clubs it either equates to... ahem... bringing on the big man or the nippy wide man and trying to get it in the mixer.

[doddisalegend]

I'm particularly pleased that we seem to be addressing the opposition and their strengths/weaknesses now. I'm led to believe that MP stubbornly stuck to training without consideration for how the opponents would be lining up. We played our way and if it didn't work, tough.

Often seemed beneficial against the tougher teams but occasionally stung us against technically inferior ones.

 

From the BBC article on Poch as new spurs boss http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27599165

 

When he first arrived at St Mary's, players were surprised that so little time was spent focusing on the opposition. The manager would only mention them for two or three minutes after the pre-match meal. No plans were made for specific players. Instead, Pochettino focused on his team, on his approach. It bred a confidence, a swagger. Whether Southampton were playing Manchester United away or Cardiff City at home, the preparations would stay the same in the week before. Formations were not discussed among the players, only shape. Pochettino talked about areas and fluidity but never the need to stay in a rigid 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2. It was innovative stuff and it worked.

[doddisalegend]

What is a plan b these days?

 

To me, it seems the new fashionable thing to say at the mo

 

Taking off big Vic and putting on Corky and swearing at the players at half time....well at least that was plan B at Milwall

[shurlock]

Taking off big Vic and putting on Corky and swearing at the players at half time....well at least that was plan B at Milwall

 

And Fulham.

[verlaine1979]

From the BBC article on Poch as new spurs boss http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27599165

 

When he first arrived at St Mary's, players were surprised that so little time was spent focusing on the opposition. The manager would only mention them for two or three minutes after the pre-match meal. No plans were made for specific players. Instead, Pochettino focused on his team, on his approach. It bred a confidence, a swagger. Whether Southampton were playing Manchester United away or Cardiff City at home, the preparations would stay the same in the week before. Formations were not discussed among the players, only shape. Pochettino talked about areas and fluidity but never the need to stay in a rigid 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2. It was innovative stuff and it worked.

 

I did always like that quote about training to play from a position, rather than in a position.

[Batman]

A change in tactics that effects the outcome of the game.

 

Like we did away to Fulham?

Or home to Swansea or WBA ?

 

Top of my head

[angelman]

From the BBC article on Poch as new spurs boss http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27599165

 

When he first arrived at St Mary's, players were surprised that so little time was spent focusing on the opposition. The manager would only mention them for two or three minutes after the pre-match meal. No plans were made for specific players. Instead, Pochettino focused on his team, on his approach. It bred a confidence, a swagger. Whether Southampton were playing Manchester United away or Cardiff City at home, the preparations would stay the same in the week before. Formations were not discussed among the players, only shape. Pochettino talked about areas and fluidity but never the need to stay in a rigid 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2. It was innovative stuff and it worked.

 

Great examples. We scraped a last minute draw at OT when we probably should have won (or at least could have) and we lost against Cardiff at home.

[Batman]

Great examples. We scraped a last minute draw at OT when we probably should have won (or at least could have) and we lost against Cardiff at home.

 

We won at Liverpool mind and got us our best league finish in 30 years

[doddisalegend]

And Fulham.

 

That's why plan B errrrr Jack Cork needs a new contract.......

[Smirking_Saint]

A change in tactics that effects the outcome of the game.

 

Ahh right, so what would you have done ? What was your magical plan B out of interest ?

[John B]

Um

 

If you play a high press you tend to match that with a lit of possession as it allows thebpressing team to recover and the opposing team to continue to use energy attempting to regain the ball.

 

I didnt see a lot of evidence of us tiring at the end of games.

 

I would be interested to know the goals we scored last season after 80 mins

 

The impression I have is not many as we may have been tiring but I maybe wrong

[Plumstead_Saint]

Good article. Cheers for the link.

[aintforever]

Ahh right, so what would you have done ? What was your magical plan B out of interest ?

 

Probably would have gone more direct at times. Also maybe not press so high up the pitch when 1-0 up against someone like Man Utd.

[Smirking_Saint]

Probably would have gone more direct at times. Also maybe not press so high up the pitch when 1-0 up against someone like Man Utd.

 

Well, he did go more direct, hence playing a long ball when things werent really working, which was his only real direct option considering the lack of pace we had.

 

Stop pressing so high, yeah can see that, though it has its benefits, the high press essentially stops the formation of meaningful attacks, generally you need to play a longer ball against it which tends to be easier to defend.

[shurlock]

Probably would have gone more direct at times. Also maybe not press so high up the pitch when 1-0 up against someone like Man Utd.

 

We played the second most long balls in the league (see whoscored.com stats) - of course, as a % of our total passes, it's lower given our dominant possession, though it does puncture the myth that we were just a tippy-tappy team.

[St Chalet]

It is massive revisionist theory to play down Pochettino's influence on us. Last season he got us fitter and more organised than any Saints team in history, even eclipsing the Strachan era in both regards.

 

For the 18 months he was here we bullied teams and surprised them, this became less effective against teams that bypassed our press with a hoof and we didn't seem to be able to adapt. It wasn't so much that we had no plan B, I always had the feeling that if we didn't score first then it was game over as we didn't create enough chances against teams who were not chasing the game.

 

What I like about Koeman is that we are more direct. We get the ball forward quicker and we seek to wear the opposition down through relentless attacking vs relentless pressing.

 

Time will tell which is the best system, but the signs from sections of the Liverpool, Millwall and West Ham games are very positive for RK.

[shurlock]

It is massive revisionist theory to play down Pochettino's influence on us. Last season he got us fitter and more organised than any Saints team in history, even eclipsing the Strachan era in both regards.

 

For the 18 months he was here we bullied teams and surprised them, this became less effective against teams that bypassed our press with a hoof and we didn't seem to be able to adapt. It wasn't so much that we had no plan B, I always had the feeling that if we didn't score first then it was game over as we didn't create enough chances against teams who were not chasing the game.

 

What I like about Koeman is that we are more direct. We get the ball forward quicker and we seek to wear the opposition down through relentless attacking vs relentless pressing.

 

Time will tell which is the best system, but the signs from sections of the Liverpool, Millwall and West Ham games are very positive for RK.

 

Don't think the hoof caused us any real problems -the 3-1 at Wham, for instance, was a fluke and on most occasions we would have won that game. Where did struggle was against teams with pace and ones that could switch the ball quickly from one flank to the other.

[St Chalet]

Don't think the hoof caused us any real problems -the 3-1 at Wham, for instance, was a fluke and on most occasions we would have won that game. Where did struggle was against teams with pace and ones that could switch the ball quickly from one flank to the other.

 

I agree the hoof didn't cause us problems defensively, but it did negate our tactic of turning over the ball high up the pitch and attacking from these positons. We didn't beat Stoke or West Ham in his time with us for example.

[Mystic Force]

His tatical genius couldnt beat Sunderland in 4 tries. That would suggest that there was.no plan B as even the 4th time we.were.getting no where.

[Whitey Grandad]

We won at Liverpool mind and got us our best league finish in 30 years

 

You can only judge by the league you're in. We can second in the league on a couple of occasions, and didn't we also finish fairly high under Strachan?

[Batman]

His tatical genius couldnt beat Sunderland in 4 tries. That would suggest that there was.no plan B as even the 4th time we.were.getting no where.

 

So, a plan b would mean we would have won every game?

[Batman]

I would be interested to know the goals we scored last season after 80 mins

 

The impression I have is not many as we may have been tiring but I maybe wrong

 

I think you are wrong.

We scored a fair few late goals

[OldNick]

The best teams keep to their beliefs of playing football to the final whistle. That's why the great Liverpool and Manchester Utd team were so successful. If your football is creative and your players good enough you should overcome if you keep to your beliefs. The plan B route is just desperation. Do clubs practice plan. B's in training, eg let's just hoof the ball into the box?

[for_heaven's_Saint]

We won at Liverpool mind and got us our best league finish in 30 years

 

We finished 8th in 2003.

[Sour Mash]

We finished 8th in 2003.

 

 

And 7th in 1990.

[pap]

I agree the hoof didn't cause us problems defensively, but it did negate our tactic of turning over the ball high up the pitch and attacking from these positons. We didn't beat Stoke or West Ham in his time with us for example.

 

A big part of our goal-scoring threat under Poch was capitalising on errors. The high press was about creating those errors in areas that mattered.

 

As you point out, not much of an opportunity to do that when there are ten men behind the ball happy to concede possession and hoof it upfield.

[Heisenberg]

Did we ever win after going behind under Mopo?

 

Also talk of us struggling against hoof ball? Didnt we only beat the better sides (top 10) in the league 2/3 x?

 

So we werent great against hoof or passing sides?? How did we finish 8th?

Edited 5 September, 2014 by Heisenberg

[pap]

Did we ever win after going behind under Mopo?

 

Think the last comeback game before the West Ham game was the Villa 4-1 game under Adkins.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19615244

 

Might be wrong though.

[Heisenberg]

Think the last comeback game before the West Ham game was the Villa 4-1 game under Adkins.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19615244

 

Might be wrong though.

 

That is truely amazing. Did mopo ever win a game after going behind in Spain?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Did we ever win after going behind under Mopo?

 

Also talk of us struggling against hoof ball? Didnt we only beat the better sides (top 10) in the league 2/3 x?

 

So we werent great against hoof or passing sides?? How did we finish 8th?

 

City, Liverpool x2, Chelsea. Off the top of my head. There may be more but, I forget.

[John Boy Saint]

And 7th in 1990.

Heresy, Witchcraft, the words of the Devil!! 1990!! Football in 1990!!!!

 

Everyone knows Football didn't even exist before 1992!!

If I were your Mother saying such things like "7th in 1990" I would be washing your mouth out with carbolic soap for telling such lies!!

 

Get the ducking stool......... Better still burn him at the stake, and cast his ashes to the four winds!!

[Mystic Force]

So, a plan b would mean we would have won every game?

 

No but it might mean we didnt win none, because it didnt wotk 3.times.you might want to try somethingey.something else

[Heisenberg]

No but it might mean we didnt win none, because it didnt wotk 3.times.you might want to try somethingey.something else

 

[Batman]

Will assume the , that anything 8th or below will be an abject failure if MP was not all that and we now have a stronger squad

 

Good times

[Heisenberg]

Will assume the , that anything 8th or below will be an abject failure if MP was not all that and we now have a stronger squad

 

Good times

 

oh dear

[The9]

Well, he did go more direct, hence playing a long ball when things werent really working, which was his only real direct option considering the lack of pace we had.

 

Stop pressing so high, yeah can see that, though it has its benefits, the high press essentially stops the formation of meaningful attacks, generally you need to play a longer ball against it which tends to be easier to defend.

 

...if you don't have one particular centre back who can't read anything in the air and watches every long ball sail over his head...

 

Not much talk about our current tactics in this tactics thread. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I suggested dropping Wanyama to reduce the number of DMs in the team before West Brom - we didn't, and we drew 0-0 in an incredibly uncreative and turgid match.

 

We then dropped him for West Ham and scored a bunch of goals.

 

Wanyama is great for shielding the defence alongside someone else, not so great for a team which needs an extra attacking or creative presence.

 

Obviously it's not as simple as that, but there's quite a correlation at the moment.

[The9]

We played the second most long balls in the league (see whoscored.com stats) - of course, as a % of our total passes, it's lower given our dominant possession, though it does puncture the myth that we were just a tippy-tappy team.

 

We had this stat argument last season - the "long pass" (not "long ball") required to count towards that stat was, I think, anything over 15 (or maybe 20) yards - our stats included numerous square balls between the split centre backs to each other in their own half, and quite a few lateral crossfield midfield and overlapping full back-finding passes, rather than any great amount of "whack it at Lambert" type stuff as implied.

[Smirking_Saint]

...if you don't have one particular centre back who can't read anything in the air and watches every long ball sail over his head...

 

Not much talk about our current tactics in this tactics thread. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I suggested dropping Wanyama to reduce the number of DMs in the team before West Brom - we didn't, and we drew 0-0 in an incredibly uncreative and turgid match.

 

We then dropped him for West Ham and scored a bunch of goals.

 

Wanyama is great for shielding the defence alongside someone else, not so great for a team which needs an extra attacking or creative presence.

 

Obviously it's not as simple as that, but there's quite a correlation at the moment.

 

Yup think i can agree with that, I think we missed big Vic when he wasnt in the team under mopo for precisely the reason we were talking about, teams under pressure tended to hit longer balls to catch out the higher operating midfield. Vic's height and physicality added that extra buffer to the two centre backs who were often left exposed by our full backs.

 

Koemans relaxed the high press, decided primarily as far as I can tell to drop the pressing line back towards the half way line. Now, I honestly think we may let more goals in this year but of course ultimately it could lead to you needed less of a defensive shape and hopefully, with less concentration spent on possession for possessions sake (which has its merits) should mean we will get more goals.

[The9]

Yup think i can agree with that, I think we missed big Vic when he wasnt in the team under mopo for precisely the reason we were talking about, teams under pressure tended to hit longer balls to catch out the higher operating midfield. Vic's height and physicality added that extra buffer to the two centre backs who were often left exposed by our full backs.

 

Koemans relaxed the high press, decided primarily as far as I can tell to drop the pressing line back towards the half way line. Now, I honestly think we may let more goals in this year but of course ultimately it could lead to you needed less of a defensive shape and hopefully, with less concentration spent on possession for possessions sake (which has its merits) should mean we will get more goals.

 

I think as much as anything the threat from the counter to the press was still there, the difference with Wanyama in front was in mopping up the second phase after the break approached the area - i.e. he got back to intercept crosses or passes on the edge of the box towards supporting attackers.

 

I didn't think we had that much of a high press for a lot of last season anyway, we still had players in advanced areas positioned to stop easy escape, but there wasn't the immediate surge towards the ball that we had for much of the first 6 months of Pochettino's term. I assume we're still discussing that because it's quite tricky to pin a particular "style" on Koeman so far due to the flexibility in positions.

[pap]

We had this stat argument last season - the "long pass" (not "long ball") required to count towards that stat was, I think, anything over 15 (or maybe 20) yards - our stats included numerous square balls between the split centre backs to each other in their own half, and quite a few lateral crossfield midfield and overlapping full back-finding passes, rather than any great amount of "whack it at Lambert" type stuff as implied.

 

Agreed. The long ball stat is a misleading one; I don't know why hoofs aren't tracked as a separate category. Probably to keep West Ham looking halfway respectable

[Stubby]

How about "Poch was good, RK might be better"?

[Lazlo78]

Don't know where to post this little snippet, so it goes in the tactics thread. Christian Eriksen admitted that he played two Denmark games below par and he thought the reason was the tough preseason at Spurs:

 

"I'm not sure why it didn't work [the Armenia game]. It has been a tough start [at Spurs], the toughest I have experienced in my career. The new coach has a lot of ideas that I have to get used to."

 

Will be interesting to see if Pochettino can push the Spurs team on, or they break under the pressure...

[david in sweden]

'At 6ft 4in (1.93m) Pelle, 29, is less mobile than last season's top scorer, Lambert'

Erm...

 

my thought too, when I read that ....

 

for all his finer qualities; vision, pin-point passing ....I must say that "mobile " is not a word that first comes to mind when talking about Rickie Lambert.....

 

Pellé may seem a bit slow at times, but he often has 2 or 3 defenders on him and so there's not much space to be "mobile"..if he is to succeed, RK will create a formation to suit his game.

[angelman]

How about "Poch was good, RK might be better"?

 

I do agree with this. I enjoyed last season a lot, but to say that MP is the only good manager that we will ever have and that future incumbents will not be able to do a decent job (as good or better) is just ridiculous.

 

 

 

Don't know where to post this little snippet, so it goes in the tactics thread. Christian Eriksen admitted that he played two Denmark games below par and he thought the reason was the tough preseason at Spurs:

 

"I'm not sure why it didn't work [the Armenia game]. It has been a tough start [at Spurs], the toughest I have experienced in my career. The new coach has a lot of ideas that I have to get used to."

 

Will be interesting to see if Pochettino can push the Spurs team on, or they break under the pressure...

 

Wasn't it JWP who said that the players felt fresher in games this season? It's all well and good being very fit, but you have to leave players with some energy to play. Felix Magath often has this levelled at him, and the players are so dog tired that they can't play 90 minutes without lagging. But I am not sure that we were visibly tiring towards the end of games last season. Maybe MP is feeling the pressure to succeed and has ramped things up a notch.

[John Boy Saint]

Wasn't it JWP who said that the players felt fresher in games this season? It's all well and good being very fit, but you have to leave players with some energy to play. Felix Magath often has this levelled at him, and the players are so dog tired that they can't play 90 minutes without lagging. But I am not sure that we were visibly tiring towards the end of games last season. Maybe MP is feeling the pressure to succeed and has ramped things up a notch.

 

Just reading that made me think of a post match interview on Solent where we had given the oppo's on the day the right run around all game and secured a win, cant remember who was being interviewed but the comment that struck me was "there are a lot of knac........ tired players in our dressing room as we have had a very hard long week on the training ground".

As you can tell the fact that stayed in my head for quite a few months after the event (apart from being a bit sad; I know) came as quite a surprise considering we looked so comfortable on the pitch all game. And especially after thinking back to the days of WGS where the last 10 minutes of games were always good value as you felt he had the players conditioned to play for 120 minutes.

[John B]

I think you are wrong.

We scored a fair few late goals

 

OK which games

 

Good teams always seem to score late

[The9]

I'd say Koeman has already dropped a bit of a clanger with the defensive West Brom side (especially given that we only sqeaked past them by one goal last season), but that it was understandable given that it was his first home match in the Premier League, and all the recordings in the world aren't going to prepare you for the reality of it.

 

What's nice is that in the 2 seasons we've been up, we've gone from a clueless side at the top level that got ambushed and owned by an experienced and clinical Wigan side in our first home game, to an experienced Prem side ourselves. We're usually able to make the right decisions to close out a game - even the majority of the signings without Prem experience are at a level where you know they know exactly what to do to see through a tight contest (eg Alderweireld). Admittedly we've been at that level for a good 18 months, but it's worth noting that Koeman won't need to teach them that, compared to the job Adkins had on his hands.

[The9]

OK which games

 

Good teams always seem to score late

 

For the sake of argument, let's say "after 80 minutes" is "late"...