Talking Tactics: Koeman gives Saints fans reasons to be cheerful

[pap]

Good article from the Premier League's website.

 

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/features/talking-tactics-ronald-koeman-gives-southampton-fans-reasons-to-be-cheerful.html

 

An early-bird assessment of life under Ronald Koeman.

[Smirking_Saint]

Pretty consistant with what I have seen. I said that we appeared to be dropping the pressing line back to around halfway instead of attempting to grab possession in their box, also its a bit more refreshing to see the use of a riskier strategy. One of my main concerns for poch was his insistance not to relinquish possession at any cost which seemed to nullify our own attacks at times, prefering not to shoot from long or try too many riskier crosses.

 

All in all Koemans come in and has made subtle changes to a winning formula, Id of said his main plus however is his control of a much deeper squad this year.

[DT]

'At 6ft 4in (1.93m) Pelle, 29, is less mobile than last season's top scorer, Lambert'

Erm...

[broken spoke]

'At 6ft 4in (1.93m) Pelle, 29, is less mobile than last season's top scorer, Lambert'

Erm...

 

Erm...

 

Lambert's going to be sat on the bench most of the Season... thats not very mobile

[pap]

'At 6ft 4in (1.93m) Pelle, 29, is less mobile than last season's top scorer, Lambert'

Erm...

 

Erm...

 

Lambert's going to be sat on the bench most of the Season... thats not very mobile

 

In fairness, they've tracked his movements to come up with that assessment, Rickie was known for dropping deeper and it's still early days.

[stevegrant]

Erm...

 

Lambert's going to be sat on the bench most of the Season... thats not very mobile

I assume the point being made is that he wasn't our top scorer last season

[DT]

Erm...

 

Lambert's going to be sat on the bench most of the Season... thats not very mobile

I went to Wembley yesterday. Hodgson played in him that role again...

[pap]

Pretty consistant with what I have seen. I said that we appeared to be dropping the pressing line back to around halfway instead of attempting to grab possession in their box, also its a bit more refreshing to see the use of a riskier strategy. One of my main concerns for poch was his insistance not to relinquish possession at any cost which seemed to nullify our own attacks at times, prefering not to shoot from long or try too many riskier crosses.

 

Think that was the main frustration of many Saints fans with Poch. The pass-to-pass meta-game was spot-on, but never really felt there was a solid route to scoring. Tactically great, but strategically rudderless at times.

[broken spoke]

Think that was the main frustration of many Saints fans with Poch. The pass-to-pass meta-game was spot-on, but never really felt there was a solid route to scoring. Tactically great, but strategically rudderless at times.

 

Agree, with this

[corky morris]

Very interesting. I would like to see Rickies stats when NA was manager as he/we isolated the full backs a lot more.

I also think RL looked markedly slower last year than the previous seasons.

[DT]

More interesting tactics talk.

Sherwood on Pochetino's pressing game when he was with us and now with Spuds...

he [Pochettino] obviously likes this high-press [tactic] and we found playing against Southampton last season that if you get past the press, you’re straight in at the back four. That’s where they got exposed against Liverpool.

[pap]

More interesting tactics talk.

Sherwood on Pochetino's pressing game when he was with us and now with Spuds...

he [Pochettino] obviously likes this high-press [tactic] and we found playing against Southampton last season that if you get past the press, you’re straight in at the back four. That’s where they got exposed against Liverpool.

 

I still think Spurs will lay waste to many of the smaller teams, but it will be interesting to see whether Poch is truly found out this year, especially now that he isn't our manager

[DT]

Once their appalling fans get on his back (esp after Arsenal, say), he'll be toast

[angelman]

I still think Spurs will lay waste to many of the smaller teams, but it will be interesting to see whether Poch is truly found out this year, especially now that he isn't our manager

 

It depends. If the smaller teams sit very deep with a back 5 or more, then we always seemed to struggle to get behind them and score.

[shurlock]

Good article, though I did see more evidence of Pellè targeting the fullbacks at Wham - a trend that hopefully continues.

 

As much as the transfers, keeping the midfield together was critical. It was our main strength last season and remains so this one.

 

Still feel we are unbalanced on the right - neither Long nor Davis have impressed there. Quite a bit riding on the Mané signing. If it works out, Long will be a decent, if expensive bench player.

Edited 4 September, 2014 by shurlock

[shurlock]

It depends. If the smaller teams sit very deep with a back 5 or more, then we always seemed to struggle to get behind them and score.

 

Like most teams find it difficult. Can only think of the QPR and to a lesser extent the Sunderland where we struggled to get behind teams. Which is par for the course.

[a1ex2001]

I still think Spurs will lay waste to many of the smaller teams, but it will be interesting to see whether Poch is truly found out this year, especially now that he isn't our manager

 

I think he's on a hiding to nothing, with the quality they have everyone expects them to beat the smaller teams comfortably and with style which I think they will do but for him to have the same outstanding success with them that he had with us he will need to be pushing very hard for top 4, that's what the fans and chairman expect and I just don't think the team has it in them. I expect him to join the long list of spurs failures shortly!

[pap]

I think he's on a hiding to nothing, with the quality they have everyone expects them to beat the smaller teams comfortably and with style which I think they will do but for him to have the same outstanding success with them that he had with us he will need to be pushing very hard for top 4, that's what the fans and chairman expect and I just don't think the team has it in them. I expect him to join the long list of spurs failures shortly!

 

Well, I'm still bitter enough to hope you're right.

[jjsaint]

I think he's on a hiding to nothing, with the quality they have everyone expects them to beat the smaller teams comfortably and with style which I think they will do but for him to have the same outstanding success with them that he had with us he will need to be pushing very hard for top 4, that's what the fans and chairman expect and I just don't think the team has it in them. I expect him to join the long list of spurs failures shortly!

 

The 'long list of Spurs failures' isn't good enough to quench my bitter thirst for his failure. I want his name alongside Christian Gross as a massive mistake, a cringeworthy laughing stock.

[DT]

I think he's on a hiding to nothing, with the quality they have everyone expects them to beat the smaller teams comfortably and with style which I think they will do but for him to have the same outstanding success with them that he had with us he will need to be pushing very hard for top 4, that's what the fans and chairman expect and I just don't think the team has it in them. I expect him to join the long list of spurs failures shortly!

Hastened by our obstinacy in letting his boys go and join him

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Pochettino's biggest problem is his inability to change things when things aren't going to plan. He only seems to have one plan of action. Undo that and he's got no back up plan.

[ant]

I'm particularly pleased that we seem to be addressing the opposition and their strengths/weaknesses now. I'm led to believe that MP stubbornly stuck to training without consideration for how the opponents would be lining up. We played our way and if it didn't work, tough.

 

Often seemed beneficial against the tougher teams but occasionally stung us against technically inferior ones.

[mcjwills]

I think he's on a hiding to nothing, with the quality they have everyone expects them to beat the smaller teams comfortably and with style which I think they will do but for him to have the same outstanding success with them that he had with us he will need to be pushing very hard for top 4, that's what the fans and chairman expect and I just don't think the team has it in them. I expect him to join the long list of spurs failures shortly!

 

As long as they do not think they have the divine right to take Koeman from us as soon as they sack our last manager.

[Smirking_Saint]

Think that was the main frustration of many Saints fans with Poch. The pass-to-pass meta-game was spot-on, but never really felt there was a solid route to scoring. Tactically great, but strategically rudderless at times.

 

I imagine, looking at the thing from a whole, aswell as how he is attempting to implement similar tactics at spurs, Id of said he may have tried a riskier approach should he have had other options upfront. Apart from jay rod he had nobody to get in behind, hence why I dont think we tried too many risky passes.

 

That is all in my own opinion of course, but yes, my makn frustration was a lack of any risk at all

[stevegrant]

I'm particularly pleased that we seem to be addressing the opposition and their strengths/weaknesses now. I'm led to believe that MP stubbornly stuck to training without consideration for how the opponents would be lining up. We played our way and if it didn't work, tough.

Yeah, pretty much. The only system changes were ever made by necessity, i.e. if someone got injured.

 

While having a "philosophy" is admirable, someone else could read it as "being a one-trick pony". Even the best teams alter their tactics to cater for specific threats the opposition pose, to fail to do so is almost a wilful negligence. Sure, you want to impose your own game on the opposition, but they're not going to stand back and let you walk through them, and they're going to pose their own threats going the other way.

[Wes Tender]

As the article says, it is still early days, but really could we have dreamed that the manager and the new players could have made a better impression? I'm particularly pleased that we do seem to have unearthed an absolute gem with Tadic, as we were reliably informed by the forum experts that Lallana couldn't possibly be replaced by somebody better at half the price, as he was in the PL Team of the Year, don't you know?

 

But the biggest satisfaction comes from reading about the tactical awareness that Koeman has demonstrated so far. As effective as Pochettino's tactics of the high-pressing game were, every team knew what to expect when they played us and some were finding ways to counteract it effectively. One suspects that Koeman will set out a team and a plan to gain the best advantage from two or three formations and choose the most effective players to put those tactics into effect.

 

What will really be interesting, is watching what happens when Koeman's new Saints faces Pochettino's team. I can't see Spurs' high-pressing getting the better of our midfield and if they commit players high up the pitch, we have some devastating pace in our team now to hit them on the break, even without Rodriguez, who was the player that gave us the pace last season.

[angelman]

I'm particularly pleased that we seem to be addressing the opposition and their strengths/weaknesses now. I'm led to believe that MP stubbornly stuck to training without consideration for how the opponents would be lining up. We played our way and if it didn't work, tough.

 

Often seemed beneficial against the tougher teams but occasionally stung us against technically inferior ones.

 

 

Well to a certain extent, I can understand that there is little point trying to second guess what the opposition are doing, especially when you believe that you will be controlling the game and they will be singing to your tune. Possession means that you are calling the shots, even though (and a classic example was Villa at home) it doesn't mean that you will score and win the game. However, I would say that it is over confidence and somewhat foolhardy.

 

This no Plan B - is that really the case? It is oft mentioned but how true is/was it? Certainly with us, the substitutions used were man for man, and no change in formation. It was still the relentless attack attack attack.

 

WBA - 90

Sunderland - 89

Man Utd - 89

Swansea - 90

 

4 goals scored that got us either a draw or win in the last couple of minutes. Not saying that he didn't have an alternative plan, more that if he didn't, then on these occasions it wasn't needed.

[Smirking_Saint]

Pochettino's biggest problem is his inability to change things when things aren't going to plan. He only seems to have one plan of action. Undo that and he's got no back up plan.

 

I keep reading this utter drivvel, how many teams have distinct plan a's, b's and c's ? Very very few.

 

In fact, the majority of the most successful teams played in only one way, utd, liverpool and arsenal to memory have a singular game plan. The same that we did. In fact, poch was able to change things and often did, though its worth noting that to have a succesfull plan B means you need players that bring something different, which of course only really the big teams have.

 

As for poch, if he is given time and money I think he'll get spurs into the top four, tactically he is excellent. We basically competed in every game.

[scotty]

I imagine, looking at the thing from a whole, aswell as how he is attempting to implement similar tactics at spurs, Id of said he may have tried a riskier approach should he have had other options upfront. Apart from jay rod he had nobody to get in behind, hence why I dont think we tried too many risky passes.

 

That is all in my own opinion of course, but yes, my makn frustration was a lack of any risk at all

 

This.

 

How many games last season did we lose/draw, and then bemoan the possession stats? I lost count of the times I thought "but we had 70% of the ball, and still f*cking lost...."

 

And pap is right, we didn't usually look like scoring. We passed well and retained the ball, but the scoring bit always looked unconvincing.

[buctootim]

I keep reading this utter drivvel, how many teams have distinct plan a's, b's and c's ? Very very few.

 

its worth noting that to have a succesfull plan B means you need players that bring something different,

 

Its this which is utter drivel. In order to change tactics you need different players? really? That will be news to every football manager.

 

Pochettino was wedded to his philosophy of playing the Bielsma way. He may have beeen capable of change, but he invariably chose to stick to his approach even when it wqas clear it wasnt working in some games. Koeman is better at playing to the strengths of his players and to the weaknesses of the opposition - a far more pragmatic approach and ultimately more likely to be successful at a club like Saints where we (mostly) dont have the luxury of the best players in the league .

[shurlock]

This.

 

How many games last season did we lose/draw, and then bemoan the possession stats? I lost count of the times I thought "but we had 70% of the ball, and still f*cking lost...."

 

And pap is right, we didn't usually look like scoring. We passed well and retained the ball, but the scoring bit always looked unconvincing.

 

Really? Nonsense. We created plenty of chances in games; the problem is we didn't put enough away.

 

And we did take risks -a common ploy, for instance, was the ball over the top with Jrod or Lallana running from deeper positions. Admittedly it worked better away than at home. And when Jrod got injured, it went out of the window.

 

Poch was an excellent for us -with a natural finisher, many of the criticisms lobbed around would have been shown to be pretty superficial.

Edited 4 September, 2014 by shurlock

[Smirking_Saint]

This.

 

How many games last season did we lose/draw, and then bemoan the possession stats? I lost count of the times I thought "but we had 70% of the ball, and still f*cking lost...."

 

And pap is right, we didn't usually look like scoring. We passed well and retained the ball, but the scoring bit always looked unconvincing.

 

Yup

 

I think its because he knew the only man that would get inside would be J Rod, and he would be right in that assumption. Neither Lambert or Lallana had the real pace to play off the last man, so he used J Rod as a sort of wide shadow striker which allowed him less attention but also to provide the runs behind

 

With this in mind he decided to primarily keep possession, to frustrate and tire. Personally like I said, once the other team reorganised Id rather have seen some long shots or some drilled crosses from wide to build pressure. But in reality the fabled plan B ? What would it have been ?

[shurlock]

Its this which is utter drivel. In order to change tactics you need different players? really? That will be news to every football manager.

 

Pochettino was wedded to his philosophy of playing the Bielsma way. He may have beeen capable of change, but he invariably chose to stick to his approach even when it wqas clear it wasnt working in some games. Koeman is better at playing to the strengths of his players and to the weaknesses of the opposition - a far more pragmatic approach and ultimately more likely to be successful at a club like Saints where we (mostly) dont have the luxury of the best players in the league .

 

???

 

Arguably it requires better players and a deeper squad to be chop and change and adapt to the opposition. Arguably a fixed style is more suitable for limited players. We had or bought players who could press intensely and so played to those strengths. If anything, its argued that getting better players to buy into a pressing game is much harder -one reason why some think MP will fail at Spurs but succeeded with us.

Edited 4 September, 2014 by shurlock

[buctootim]

With this in mind he decided to primarily keep possession, to frustrate and tire.

 

Nope. It was us who tired due to the intense pressing and running and so faded badly in the second half.

[buctootim]

???

 

Arguably it requires better players and a deeper squad to be chop and change and adapt to the opposition. Arguably a fixed style is more suitable for limited players.

 

More intelligent maybe but not necessarily better. After all you can change things during a game by pressing more / less, go narrow / wide, keep more players behind the ball etc without changing players.

[itchen]

It's fairly tempting to see the flaws in Poch's approach last season because of the way he left us. But I know that, last season, I saw the most exciting football I've ever seen Saints play (and I'm pretty old so I've seen a fair bit). But, yes, he had his limitations. I'm extremely optimistic about Koeman and the latest two signings can only make us even better. I wish Poch all the bad luck in the world but I'm not quite ready to write off his achievements last year.

[Smirking_Saint]

Its this which is utter drivel. In order to change tactics you need different players? really? That will be news to every football manager.

 

Pochettino was wedded to his philosophy of playing the Bielsma way. He may have beeen capable of change, but he invariably chose to stick to his approach even when it wqas clear it wasnt working in some games. Koeman is better at playing to the strengths of his players and to the weaknesses of the opposition - a far more pragmatic approach and ultimately more likely to be successful at a club like Saints where we (mostly) dont have the luxury of the best players in the league .

 

In what way is Koeman any different or has changed things exactly ? Apart from playing 4123 apart from a 433 against West ham within which poch did last season aswell.

 

So tell me, exactly what did you want to see as a vast change of tactics ? I saw poch play 4231, 433, 451 and the occasional 442 on occasion. So he wasnt stuck to one variant, he found a method that worked with the players he had, he had no other choices, we couldnt possibly play a quick counter, so he played possession with a long ball game if that didnt work, so tell me what part about changing systems and having players able to do so is drivvel Timothy ?

 

Alternatively you could explain what your plan B would be against a team parking the bus ?

 

And its Bielsa

[Smirking_Saint]

Nope. It was us who tired due to the intense pressing and running and so faded badly in the second half.

 

Um

 

If you play a high press you tend to match that with a lit of possession as it allows thebpressing team to recover and the opposing team to continue to use energy attempting to regain the ball.

 

I didnt see a lot of evidence of us tiring at the end of games.

[buctootim]

he wasnt stuck to one variant, he found a method that worked with the players he had, he had no other choices,

 

It was his team and his signings and his decision to play with that squad. If he had a lack of options it was because he failed to create a team that did have them - unlike Koeman.

 

Alternatively you could explain what your plan B would be against a team parking the bus ?

 

Perhaps not continuing to pass it around harmlessly in the middle third whilst the oppsition who had come for a point leaned on their goalposts admiringly at 0-0?

 

And its Bielsa

 

Ooh you scored point on the typo anal scale. Go you.

 

...

Edited 4 September, 2014 by buctootim

[shurlock]

More intelligent maybe but not necessarily better. After all you can change things during a game by pressing more / less, go narrow / wide, keep more players behind the ball etc without changing players.

 

Consider Koeman's recent interview in which he said that we couldn't play a counterattacking game because we lacked the necessary players. Now with Mane and Long's pace, we have that luxury, though it has required us to fork out over £20m+.

 

In other words, if you genuinely want to adapt to an opposition, you need the resources; MP wasn't so obstinate that he refused to mix things up -for instance, Gallagher was played largely because it was felt he could stretch defences -an alternative to our patient build-up, though he wasn't up to the task.

 

As Gallagher showed, if you don't have the players, perhaps its better sticking to your strengths -unless by 'pragmatism', you mean parking the bus. You only need to recall the West Brom game to appreciate that no manager, however flexible, can change things without the personnel.

Edited 4 September, 2014 by shurlock

[buctootim]

Consider Koeman's recent interview in which he said that we couldn't play a counterattacking game because we lacked the necessary players. Now with Mane and Long, we have that luxury, though it has required us to fork out over £20m+.

 

In other words, if you genuinely want to adapt to an opposition, you need the resources; MP wasn't so obstinate that he refused to mix things up -for instance, Gallagher was played largely because it was felt he could stretch defences -an alternative to our patient build-up, though he wasn't up to the task. As Gallagher showed, if you don't have the players, perhaps its better sticking to your strengths.

 

Without the personnel, its hard to be 'pragmatic' -unless you're talking about parking the bus. Just need to remember the West Brom game.

 

Sure. Im not slagging Pochettino, he moved us on a stage and mostly did well. Im simply saying that the squad was too thin to give more options (perhaps his fault, perhaps not) and that he continued too long with the same patient build up game plan in some matches when it wasnt working because the opposition were content to let us keep the ball in areas where it wasnt a danger. Being more direct on occasion (not long ball) could have helped.

Edited 4 September, 2014 by buctootim

[Smirking_Saint]

...

 

It wasnt entirely his team no, he bought poorly in Osvaldo though it was obviously he wanted a striker able to get in behind, unfortunately that was a massive flop but there you go. His other buys werent all that terrible, lovren of course was excellent.

 

Sometimes thats just what happens, it happens to the big squads let alone the smaller ones, one thing I will say was we were always competetive. Aswell as I can almost guarantee there were very few teams that would have enjoyed paying us.

 

As per the Bielsa part, just making sure you knew exactly who you were talking about, if we are going to talk about poch's tactics its worth getting ONE of his antagonists nanes correct, it wasnt however the only influence to his style.

 

On amother note, Ive not exactly worked out whats got into you, you never used to be a bad poster but seem to have taken on a more arguementative version of adrians pretentious tit role.

[Charlie Wayman]

I went to Wembley yesterday. Hodgson played in him that role again...

 

What did you do that for? Not many others bothered obviously. As many have said before England no longer has relevance to Saints fans as all our players who made it to the national team Effed off the minute they did, so to Chamber-pot who looked mighty pleased with himself when he came on at the end but my feelings were of complete indifference.

 

Some will say, isn't it great the England team will soon have five ex-Saints playing for them, maybe even six but most no longer give a tos,s?

[Charlie Wayman]

...it was obvious he wanted a striker able to get in behind, unfortunately that was a massive flop but there you go

 

You are talking about football?

[DT]

What did you do that for? Not many others bothered obviously. As many have said before England no longer has relevance to Saints fans as all our players who made it to the national team Effed off the minute they did, so to Chamber-pot who looked mighty pleased with himself when he came on at the end but my feelings were of complete indifference.

 

Some will say, isn't it great the England team will soon have five ex-Saints playing for them, maybe even six but most no longer give a tos,s?

 

It was a freebie in a box, with unlimited drinks and pretty nice food, that's why!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Really? Nonsense. We created plenty of chances in games; the problem is we didn't put enough away.

 

And we did take risks -a common ploy, for instance, was the ball over the top with Jrod or Lallana running from deeper positions. Admittedly it worked better away than at home. And when Jrod got injured, it went out of the window.

 

Poch was an excellent for us -with a natural finisher, many of the criticisms lobbed around would have been shown to be pretty superficial.

 

Pretty much this. I don't get how Poch has suddenly become a bad manager. It wasn't so long ago many of us were gutted he was leaving, and thought we wouldn't be able to adequately replace him.

 

I'd also suggest that the 'pressing' game involves a fair element of risk too. Far from just sitting 10 behind the ball at least.

 

 

P.s. I still do think Poch acted a bit of a kn0b.

[ozzmeister]

Good article, though I did see more evidence of Pellè targeting the fullbacks at Wham - a trend that hopefully continues.

 

As much as the transfers, keeping the midfield together was critical. It was our main strength last season and remains so this one.

 

Still feel we are unbalanced on the right - neither Long nor Davis have impressed there. Quite a bit riding on the Mané signing. If it works out, Long will be a decent, if expensive bench player.

 

Sounds like there's a Palace midfielder who could replace our Morgan though........

[whelk]

Mmm tactic bores. I swear those that obsess about tactics don't truly enjoy the game and use it for pretentious reasons.

 

Rodgers has truly got MP's number though with diamond midfield. Or it would seem

[aintforever]

Pochettino's biggest problem is his inability to change things when things aren't going to plan. He only seems to have one plan of action. Undo that and he's got no back up plan.

 

Agree, he just didn't have a plan B.

[shurlock]

Pretty much this. I don't get how Poch has suddenly become a bad manager. It wasn't so long ago many of us were gutted he was leaving, and thought we wouldn't be able to adequately replace him.

 

I'd also suggest that the 'pressing' game involves a fair element of risk too. Far from just sitting 10 behind the ball at least.

 

 

P.s. I still do think Poch acted a bit of a kn0b.

 

Agree- nothing more risky than playing a high line and pressing intensely which is to say that I can also separate my views of Poch as a manager from the way he played us for fools.