September One - Judgement Day

[Professor]

You post consistent tosh, fair play.

 

There are plenty of factors influencing price, length of contract, players age, potential, affluence of selling club and buying club, nationality, current wages, etc etc.

 

Your "theory" (something nags at me that you might not be an actual real professor) is so crudely facile it is barely worth scrutiny.

 

But one pointless example: we replaced Adam Lallana who cost us fifty grand from Bournemouth with Tadic for 200 times more. So Tadic 200 times better. Easy.

 

I do agree that your Lallana example is pointless but if you own a house and would like to sell it to me for what you paid for it, I might be interested! Opinions are free and you don't have to agree that more expensive players are usually the better players but it is a measure widely used by football pundits. Of course, they could be wrong as well.

Sorry you couldn't remain polite while debating but I really don't mind because insults tend to undermine the credibility of the person making them.

[CB Fry]

I do agree that your Lallana example is pointless but if you own a house and would like to sell it to me for what you paid for it, I might be interested! Opinions are free and you don't have to agree that more expensive players are usually the better players but it is a measure widely used by football pundits. Of course, they could be wrong as well.

Sorry you couldn't remain polite while debating but I really don't mind because insults tend to undermine the credibility of the person making them.

 

You tend to post absolute drivel most of the time.

 

Most pundits don't use the market value to as "a widely used measure" of whether or not they think player x is good or not. They tend to use their opinion on their footballing ability. Fees/value is just background context.

 

Better players are often more expensive but that doesn't mean all players can be ranked by price, for the reasons outlined in my previous post. Pundits definitely don't do that, so it is anything but a "widely used measure".

 

Man U paid high for Shaw not because he is right now the best Left Back in the world - he ain't - but because he is young, English and could give them a decade of service. He's the most expensive teenager ever, on your "widely used measure" he's the best teenage footballer in the world? Is he?

 

Anyway, as I said, you post utter drivel.

[Killers Knee]

I feared the club was being driven off the edge of a cliff with all the sales and discontented players.

 

It seems Ralph, Penfold and Big Ron had a tighter hold on the reins than the comms eluded too.

 

We now have an exciting team, a better squad and a promising season ahead. Got no idea where we will finish but I do know it will be entertaining.

[The9]

Les Reed

 

Any enquiries we get will probably be met with a ‘no, not for sale.’ Our intention is to keep this very good team together and build on it by bringing in players to improve upon it.

 

The bits in bold are the sort of words people skipped when reading club statements over the summer. I still think it was people read what they wanted to hear rather than take notice of the clubs subtle get out clauses in every statement.

 

Also worth noting that this could have been referring to future enquiries, they'd already had dialogue about Lallana, Shaw and (as he left soon after) presumably Lambert too.

 

Plus Ralph apologised for this exact statement live on Sky (in the "Rodriguez and Schneiderlin are not leaving" statement) saying it was necessary to say that for the club to get the highest price possible for the outgoing players once they'd decided to sell.

[Professor]

Dear Mr Fry. Unless you have a direct line to Ed Woodward, we can't know what was in Man U's thinking with regard to the price they paid for Shaw but we do know they are desperate to qualify for the Champion's League this year, so short-term seems to be their priority over potential. It seems reasonable to assume that in spending something like £150m on players they think they have assembled a better squad than if they had spent £75m.

 

Southampton sold the expensive Shaw and loaned in the cheaper Bertrand, but I doubt if many would agree that Bertrand is the better LB. If he was, Man U would have probably gone for him instead. Skill and ability will always be the major factors until age begins to diminish values. Please feel free to reject this drivel, and maybe, don't even bother to read it if it upsets you. I wonder if you have this problem with the customers at your Fish and Chip shop but perhaps you don't really Fry at all.

[CB Fry]

Dear Mr Fry. Unless you have a direct line to Ed Woodward, we can't know what was in Man U's thinking with regard to the price they paid for Shaw but we do know they are desperate to qualify for the Champion's League this year, so short-term seems to be their priority over potential. It seems reasonable to assume that in spending something like £150m on players they think they have assembled a better squad than if they had spent £75m.

 

Southampton sold the expensive Shaw and loaned in the cheaper Bertrand, but I doubt if many would agree that Bertrand is the better LB. If he was, Man U would have probably gone for him instead. Skill and ability will always be the major factors until age begins to diminish values. Please feel free to reject this drivel, and maybe, don't even bother to read it if it upsets you. I wonder if you have this problem with the customers at your Fish and Chip shop but perhaps you don't really Fry at all.

As I say, you post absolute drivel. Well done on maintaining the standard.

 

You've moved on from "pundits use value to measure how good players are" to some ramble about Manchester United making god only knows what point.

 

Drivel.

[pap]

Man U paid high for Shaw not because he is right now the best Left Back in the world - he ain't - but because he is young, English and could give them a decade of service. He's the most expensive teenager ever, on your "widely used measure" he's the best teenage footballer in the world? Is he?

 

Dear Mr Fry. Unless you have a direct line to Ed Woodward, we can't know what was in Man U's thinking with regard to the price they paid for Shaw but we do know they are desperate to qualify for the Champion's League this year, so short-term seems to be their priority over potential. It seems reasonable to assume that in spending something like £150m on players they think they have assembled a better squad than if they had spent £75m.

 

Southampton sold the expensive Shaw and loaned in the cheaper Bertrand, but I doubt if many would agree that Bertrand is the better LB. If he was, Man U would have probably gone for him instead. Skill and ability will always be the major factors until age begins to diminish values. Please feel free to reject this drivel, and maybe, don't even bother to read it if it upsets you. I wonder if you have this problem with the customers at your Fish and Chip shop but perhaps you don't really Fry at all.

 

Man Utd are a very poor example of a club doing regular transfer business. Van Persie was the last truly effective signing they made, and while they landed some huge names this window, their policy doesn't seem especially coherent.

[Saxon]

No idea if anyone's posted this yet:

 

From good old Ed Chamberlin, in hos article about the top 5 stars of the season so far.

 

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/15197/9455592/premier-league-201415-ed-chamberlin-picks-five-stars-of-the-season-so-far

 

"The gloom that descended over Southampton this summer has well and truly lifted. Ronald Koeman has conducted himself immaculately throughout and he's already got his new-look team exceeding expectations and proving the critics wrong.

 

The stick I took on Twitter for predicting Southampton would finish in the top half at 6/4 with Sky Bet seems to have died down. They have also added quality. The capture of Sadio Mane and Toby Alderweireld on Deadline Day has added to the fans' excitement and finally puts to bed any talk than the owner was asset stripping this summer.

 

Ralph Krueger and the hierarchy also deserve credit for keeping Morgan Schneiderlin and the player deserves credit, too, for knuckling down after initially throwing his toys out of the pram. As important as Adam Lallana, Dejan Lovren, Luke Shaw and Rickie Lambert were, Schneiderlin has been the Saints' most consistent player over the last four years.

 

Despite the exodus, the club has kept its biggest asset. Fraser Forster is going to make a big impact in goal but the player to really catch the eye has been Tadic. The players rave about his ability in training and there have been flashes of brilliance on the pitch so far. Graeme Souness liked what he saw at Anfield. There is much more still to come."

[Professor]

Like that Ed Chamberlain paragraph on Saints. Its good to see that some positive stories are beginning to replace all the negative stuff during the summer. He does also mention some of the Man U signings and it will be interesting to see if they work together or if they struggle as some clubs have in the past when trying to buy success with the most expensive star names. Sometimes its works, as it did with Blackburn when they bought Shearer and Flowers from Southampton along with other expensive signings. In effect Jack Walker bought a league championship for Blackburn. We've become used to Chelsea and Man City doing the same but now it seems they are joined by Liverpool and Man Utd with Arsenal and Tottenham close behind. If those six clubs tie up the top six spots in the league, money will have spoken, whatever order they finish in, but two of them can't get into the Champions' League and those two will regard that as failure.

If Saints finish 7th, that will be a fantastic achievement, and not at all easy to do with plenty of other teams also having brought in new players. But the prospect of breaking the grip of the millionaire clubs looks very difficult, not only for us but even for over-achievers like Everton. The other problem of course is that if we do well again this year, which players will be filched from us in May, if not before?

[Frank's cousin]

You don't half talk some nonsense.

Meeeow! Love it when you so Butch! ;-)

[Fan The Flames]

It seems Ralph, Penfold and Big Ron had a tighter hold on the reins than the comms eluded too.

 

The communication was clear, people just chose to believe something else.

[Frank's cousin]

Not sure how it's even relevant, but I 'sit' in Block 42 of the Northam. Quite near the back too. Surprised?

 

Actually in all of that long-winded monologue you seem to have overlooked one line of my post:

 

 

 

Was I ****ed off, concerned or otherwise frustrated at any point this Summer? Yes, of course. My passion for Southampton Football Club knows no bounds, yet I'm generally able to keep my behaviour in check when adversity rears its ugly head. You talk as if trying to keep the bigger picture in mind is the wrong thing to do! Using emotion as an excuse to throw toys out of the pram (and timidly reaching back for them when realising it was a rather groundless over-reaction) - that's the truly disingenuous attitude.

 

As much as your efforts at being all very grown up about this are admirable, in your efforts to remain aloof and provide a perceived intelligent and rational response, you are missing the point entirely. Both you and Wes are suggesting that you should expect everyone who posts on here to present this 'ever so grown up' perspective all the time and that should they fail to reach your rather high expectations then they have somehow failed - and therefore should be chastised? This would be a perfectly acceptable and reasonable opinion if we were talking about a discussion forum on a serious topic - maybe the issues and challenges in the middle east, or something that actually matters and should be taken seriously - but we are not. We are talking about a football club fan forum - where you and your opinions are valid, but no more than anyone else's. Where the behaviours you take care to display, are valid ... but no more so than anyone else's - unless you do take this all ever so seriously. You need to recognise that you and your chosen behaviour is just part of the spectrum of users - most of whom will be perfectly rational, reasonable and 'adult' about things in 99% of their lives and chose this place to whinge, moan and generally throw their toys out the pram about the meaningless and relatively unimportant in the 'grand scheme of things' subject of football - if that is so offensive to you, well that's your right/choice etc, but its not in the rules that everyone must be perfectly rational all the time - well not the last time I looked anyway. There is no 'timidly putting toys back in the pram' - just folks responding to those who are now belittling their opinions - despite the fact that one win does not a season make - so what if some folks over reacted, or 'spat the dummy' what difference dos it make to you or others? Does it change your opinion? Its just a small insignificant web forum, nothing more. I will repeat, that direct personal attacks are not justified, but not sure how calling someone a prat for opening his gob in public and coming across as insincere, and at best naive, and is such a big deal - unless you are very sensitive?

[Pierre]

We've made very late signings so it will take some time for the team to start ticking. The panic button will be pressed within a month but we will come good. Top half finish. European football would be great!

[The Cat]

Its just a small insignificant web forum' date=' nothing more. [/quote']

 

HOW DARE YOU.

[scotty]

I have to admit, even given turks liberal use of groundbait in the thread starter I wasn't expecting to see quite so many bites. Its not so much a frantically bobbing float, more like a pool of piranhas.

[Frank's cousin]

HOW DARE YOU.

 

If it helps I did feel 'dirty' saying that.... and I apologise to all those for whom this may shatter the delusion that there is profound and important things to be found on these here pages. The best way I can summarise is that I like most on here talk a lot of shiedt. Sometimes its less sheidt, at other times its still steaming... sometimes I get angry, sometimes I take it all too seriously... yet at other times its over emotive, sometimes too sterile.... I am just happy to admit that this is one place where I don't need to be taken seriously all the time, can be pompous, can be irritable - as I don't expect my opinion to be 'life affirming' or 'life changing' - it is just a load of football boll ox in the grand scheme of things....and the fact that we do get all steamed up about it is what keeps it entertaining and keeps us coming back even when insulted ;-)

[Fitzhugh Fella]

As much as your efforts at being all very grown up about this are admirable' date=' in your efforts to remain aloof and provide a perceived intelligent and rational response, you are missing the point entirely. Both you and Wes are suggesting that you should expect everyone who posts on here to present this 'ever so grown up' perspective all the time and that should they fail to reach your rather high expectations then they have somehow failed - and therefore should be chastised? This would be a perfectly acceptable and reasonable opinion if we were talking about a discussion forum on a serious topic - maybe the issues and challenges in the middle east, or something that actually matters and should be taken seriously - but we are not. We are talking about a football club fan forum - where you and your opinions are valid, but no more than anyone else's. Where the behaviours you take care to display, are valid ... but no more so than anyone else's - unless you do take this all ever so seriously. You need to recognise that you and your chosen behaviour is just part of the spectrum of users - most of whom will be perfectly rational, reasonable and 'adult' about things in 99% of their lives and chose this place to whinge, moan and generally throw their toys out the pram about the meaningless and relatively unimportant in the 'grand scheme of things' subject of football - if that is so offensive to you, well that's your right/choice etc, but its not in the rules that everyone must be perfectly rational all the time - well not the last time I looked anyway. There is no 'timidly putting toys back in the pram' - just folks responding to those who are now belittling their opinions - despite the fact that one win does not a season make - so what if some folks over reacted, or 'spat the dummy' what difference dos it make to you or others? Does it change your opinion? Its just a small insignificant web forum, nothing more. I will repeat, that direct personal attacks are not justified, but not sure how calling someone a prat for opening his gob in public and coming across as insincere, and at best naive, and is such a big deal - unless you are very sensitive?[/quote']

 

 

Frank it would help if you found out where the return key is on your keyboard and maybe introduce the odd paragraph break?

[pap]

Frank it would help if you found out where the return key is on your keyboard and maybe introduce the odd paragraph break?

 

This.

 

Seriously Frank - I want to read your posts, but they're fkn hard going mate.

 

This small change would make a huge difference.

[Wes Tender]

As much as your efforts at being all very grown up about this are admirable' date=' in your efforts to remain aloof and provide a perceived intelligent and rational response, you are missing the point entirely. Both you and Wes are suggesting that you should expect everyone who posts on here to present this 'ever so grown up' perspective all the time and that should they fail to reach your rather high expectations then they have somehow failed - and therefore should be chastised? This would be a perfectly acceptable and reasonable opinion if we were talking about a discussion forum on a serious topic - maybe the issues and challenges in the middle east, or something that actually matters and should be taken seriously - but we are not. We are talking about a football club fan forum - where you and your opinions are valid, but no more than anyone else's. Where the behaviours you take care to display, are valid ... but no more so than anyone else's - unless you do take this all ever so seriously. You need to recognise that you and your chosen behaviour is just part of the spectrum of users - most of whom will be perfectly rational, reasonable and 'adult' about things in 99% of their lives and chose this place to whinge, moan and generally throw their toys out the pram about the meaningless and relatively unimportant in the 'grand scheme of things' subject of football - if that is so offensive to you, well that's your right/choice etc, but its not in the rules that everyone must be perfectly rational all the time - well not the last time I looked anyway. There is no 'timidly putting toys back in the pram' - just folks responding to those who are now belittling their opinions - despite the fact that one win does not a season make - so what if some folks over reacted, or 'spat the dummy' what difference dos it make to you or others? Does it change your opinion? Its just a small insignificant web forum, nothing more. I will repeat, that direct personal attacks are not justified, but not sure how calling someone a prat for opening his gob in public and coming across as insincere, and at best naive, and is such a big deal - unless you are very sensitive?[/quote']

 

Of course, Frank, nobody will ever be able to take your posts seriously anymore, as they will not know whether you are making a serious point, or ranting, throwing you toys out of the pram or having a good old moan/whinge just for the pure hell of it.

Perhaps you could indicate which Frank it is posting in future, so that we will know.

 

Which category did your post above fit in, for instance?

[ant]

People can act as ridiculously as they like on here - doesn't directly affect me or my opinions, Frank.

 

Bit much for those same people to get all precious when they're called up on it though. If you don't want to be judged on rash statements, perhaps it's wise to take a moment to breathe before posting them.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

As much as your efforts at being all very grown up about this are admirable' date=' in your efforts to remain aloof and provide a perceived intelligent and rational response, you are missing the point entirely. Both you and Wes are suggesting that you should expect everyone who posts on here to present this 'ever so grown up' perspective all the time and that should they fail to reach your rather high expectations then they have somehow failed - and therefore should be chastised? This would be a perfectly acceptable and reasonable opinion if we were talking about a discussion forum on a serious topic - maybe the issues and challenges in the middle east, or something that actually matters and should be taken seriously - but we are not. We are talking about a football club fan forum - where you and your opinions are valid, but no more than anyone else's. Where the behaviours you take care to display, are valid ... but no more so than anyone else's - unless you do take this all ever so seriously. You need to recognise that you and your chosen behaviour is just part of the spectrum of users - most of whom will be perfectly rational, reasonable and 'adult' about things in 99% of their lives and chose this place to whinge, moan and generally throw their toys out the pram about the meaningless and relatively unimportant in the 'grand scheme of things' subject of football - if that is so offensive to you, well that's your right/choice etc, but its not in the rules that everyone must be perfectly rational all the time - well not the last time I looked anyway. There is no 'timidly putting toys back in the pram' - just folks responding to those who are now belittling their opinions - despite the fact that one win does not a season make - so what if some folks over reacted, or 'spat the dummy' what difference dos it make to you or others? Does it change your opinion? Its just a small insignificant web forum, nothing more. I will repeat, that direct personal attacks are not justified, but not sure how calling someone a prat for opening his gob in public and coming across as insincere, and at best naive, and is such a big deal - unless you are very sensitive?[/quote']

 

So football doesn't really matter, but it's justifiable for people to lose their sh*t and act like totally entitled, know-it-all asses and label people that suggest maybe waiting to see how things end up deluded.

 

With the passage of time it has been shown that these temper tantrums were just that, and these 'knowing' posts about what was going on (asset-stripping etc etc) were shown to be anything but.

[Joey-deacons-left-nut]

My only concern is how long it will take for the team to gel with the new players...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Frank's cousin]

People can act as ridiculously as they like on here - doesn't directly affect me or my opinions, Frank.

 

Bit much for those same people to get all precious when they're called up on it though. If you don't want to be judged on rash statements, perhaps it's wise to take a moment to breathe before posting them.

 

Admirable moral crusade.... But tell me, do you also act all 'grown up' and rush to admonish Turkish or some of his cronies when they insult Alps about his weight or think it's amusing to insinuate posters are alcoholics, or do you not think they are worth your self righteousness? I have not seen you attack Turkish's efforts at all, let alone with such zeal. Is it because he might turn all nasty on you?

 

It's not just you. This whole thread is full of hypocrites demanding apologies for the board and KL yet who are happy to watch and remain silent whilst a few forum über lords dish out their own brand of insult...

 

...and Wes, sorry, but you are also missing the point re the 'seriousness' - I always post what I believe and feel at the time. Therefore it's bound to be influenced by whatever mood I happen to be in... Happen to be comfortable being emotional... So every now and again, I will react emotionally, other times more calm reflection. Sorry but whilst 'ant' believes rather immaturely that it's so important on a football forum to remain emotionally sterile before posting, many recognise that this is just football, so 'losing it', ranting, or whatever other emotional outburst is presented, really is fine... Because this is NOT a place where taking it all so seriously all of the time is of any importance.

 

I agree with those that believe the personal insults aimed at KL were out if order.... And I apologise to Ralph for calling him a few names... But at least demonstrate some consistency and express the same moral outrage towards those that sling the personal insults around in here, otherwise you look weak and hypocritical. Alternatively, don't take to all so seriously and simply ignore those whose comments you feel are inappropriate.... But at least be consistent in your choice.

[Turkish]

Admirable moral crusade.... But tell me' date=' do you also act all 'grown up' and rush to admonish Turkish or some of his cronies when they insult Alps about his weight or think [b']it's amusing to insinuate posters are alcoholics[/b], or do you not think they are worth your self righteousness? I have not seen you attack Turkish's efforts at all, let alone with such zeal. Is it because he might turn all nasty on you?

 

It's not just you. This whole thread is full of hypocrites demanding apologies for the board and KL yet who are happy to watch and remain silent whilst a few forum über lords dish out their own brand of insult...

 

...and Wes, sorry, but you are also missing the point re the 'seriousness' - I always post what I believe and feel at the time. Therefore it's bound to be influenced by whatever mood I happen to be in... Happen to be comfortable being emotional... So every now and again, I will react emotionally, other times more calm reflection. Sorry but whilst 'ant' believes rather immaturely that it's so important on a football forum to remain emotionally sterile before posting, many recognise that this is just football, so 'losing it', ranting, or whatever other emotional outburst is presented, really is fine... Because this is NOT a place where taking it all so seriously all of the time is of any importance.

 

I agree with those that believe the personal insults aimed at KL were out if order.... And I apologise to Ralph for calling him a few names... But at least demonstrate some consistency and express the same moral outrage towards those that sling the personal insults around in here, otherwise you look weak and hypocritical. Alternatively, don't take to all so seriously and simply ignore those whose comments you feel are inappropriate.... But at least be consistent in your choice.

 

Hang on a minute, it was you that admitted you came on here ranting and raving after drinking a bottle of wine, don't try and blame me for your issues. If anything I'm doing you a favour by mentioning them, people might cut you some slack with the crap you writing having realised it was likely you were under the influence at the time.

[Frank's cousin]

Hang on a minute, it was you that admitted you came on here ranting and raving after drinking a bottle of wine, don't try and blame me for your issues. If anything I'm doing you a favour by mentioning them, people might cut you some slack with the crap you writing having realised it was likely you were under the influence at the time.

 

Haha, urban myth creating as usual Turks... How a glass turns to a bottle, and a bit do a rant into 'ranting and raving' - you should work writing bul lsh it headlines for the red top rags, your talents obviously wasted in stationary or whatever... Tactics if the playground Turks, you know it, I know it, but you are the only one who finds it amusing... Must be a bit dull it Turksville if this makes you feel good about yourself - so glad you are getting some pleasure in life ;-)

[Turkish]

Haha' date=' urban myth creating as usual Turks... How a glass turns to a bottle, and a bit do a rant into 'ranting and raving' - you should work writing bul lsh it headlines for the red top rags, your talents obviously wasted in stationary or whatever... Tactics if the playground Turks, you know it, I know it, but you are the only one who finds it amusing... Must be a bit dull it Turksville if this makes you feel good about yourself - so glad you are getting some pleasure in life ;-)[/quote']

 

Understating how much you've had and attempting to justifying your behaviour, more worrying signs Franco.

[Frank's cousin]

Understating how much you've had and attempting to justifying your behaviour, more worrying signs Franco.

 

See most would just ignore you, walk away from your rather pathetic bullying attempts.... Realising your are probably just too darn stupid to even see it as such.... But me, no, I am quite interested as to what perverse sort of pleasure you get from this behaviour? Please tell all. Might make an interesting story, no? Come on, emote, open up and may be you can get closure, move on, and have a normal life? Sure there are plenty on here all rooting for you ;-)

[ant]

Admirable moral crusade.... But tell me' date=' do you also act all 'grown up' and rush to admonish Turkish or some of his cronies when they insult Alps about his weight or think it's amusing to insinuate posters are alcoholics, or do you not think they are worth your self righteousness? I have not seen you attack Turkish's efforts at all, let alone with such zeal. Is it because he might turn all nasty on you?[/quote']

 

Just over 1,000 posts in 7 years. There's a hell of a lot I've never commented on.

 

Actually I'm quite happy to call the likes of which up as and when I'm privy (and have done in the past). Why the hell would I care what people I've never met think of me or say about me?

 

Equally while I find Turkish to be something of a WUM on occasion (since you specifically called him out), he's clearly a knowledgeable fan and capable of level-headed assessment.

 

Pretty sure this has run its course...

[Redslo]

I found this quote from early August that made me strangely happy.

 

I am close to cancelling my season-ticket. Doubtless, I am not alone in resenting what appears to be a conspiracy of silence from the club and a drip-feed of misinformation from [the board]. Why will the club not comment on the relentless selling of any player of ours that makes us competitive ... and gives us a chance of [improving]? We fans no do not have a right to know the minutiae of the club’s operations, but, surely, we deserve an explanation for the squad’s rapid, and continuing, diminution in size and quality.

 

Just yesterday the thread was resurrected to point out the original poster's foolishness.

 

It was from northstandchat, the Brighton and Hove Forum which I was reading for research purposes. I guess things are pretty much the same everywhere.

 

BTW, I edited the quote to take out the portions that would have given it away immediately.

Edited 6 September, 2014 by Redslo

[Killers Knee]

The communication was clear, people just chose to believe something else.

Due to the poor communication.

[Turkish]

See most would just ignore you' date=' walk away from your rather pathetic bullying attempts.... Realising your are probably just too darn stupid to even see it as such.... But me, no, I am quite interested as to what perverse sort of pleasure you get from this behaviour? Please tell all. Might make an interesting story, no? Come on, emote, open up and may be you can get closure, move on, and have a normal life? Sure there are plenty on here all rooting for you ;-)[/quote']

 

Ignore me? Bullying? Closure? You brought it up Franco! Maybe its a cry for help Afterall.....

[Whitey Grandad]

Due to the poor communication.

 

It never confused me.

[Fan The Flames]

Due to the poor communication.

 

See you are mishearing again. There were emphatic statements by the club stating the position, but people chose to not take it on face value but read between the lines and try to find the second meaning in everything. People were convinced of a doomsday scenario and were trying to interpret the club statements to fit their idea of events.

 

As the statements were clear, by poor do you mean the frequency; because for the level headed the frequency was fine, others demanded a running commentary of statements from the club covering the summer dealings, well you are just not going to get that.

[CB Fry]

See you are mishearing again. There were emphatic statements by the club stating the position, but people chose to not take it on face value but read between the lines and try to find the second meaning in everything. People were convinced of a doomsday scenario and were trying to interpret the club statements to fit their idea of events.

 

As the statements were clear, by poor do you mean the frequency; because for the level headed the frequency was fine, others demanded a running commentary of statements from the club covering the summer dealings, well you are just not going to get that.

My favourite was "Ralph says Morgan will still be here on Sept 1st but all that REALLY means he will sell him on that day and he won't be here on Sept 2nd. Aren't I so jolly clever to see through that lie."

 

Utter, utter, utter cretins.

[um pahars]

See you are mishearing again. There were emphatic statements by the club stating the position, but people chose to not take it on face value but read between the lines and try to find the second meaning in everything. People were convinced of a doomsday scenario and were trying to interpret the club statements to fit their idea of events.

 

As the statements were clear, by poor do you mean the frequency; because for the level headed the frequency was fine, others demanded a running commentary of statements from the club covering the summer dealings, well you are just not going to get that.

 

Absolutely. In the current era, power has switched to mercenary players & unscrupulous agents. There was no premeditated firesale, no closing down clearance & no Club being left abandoned. Instead the Club were left to clear up the shift of a number of players putting their own interests first (whether that was selfish & disloyal, or instead a reflection of the modern game/society or just wanting to better themselves is another argument).

 

Even if players were forcing the Club's hand and demanding a move, then the Club issuing a not for sale is a reasonable response, not least to ensure a premium price is achieved if we have to sell. As with "I've signed a 5 yr deal & I'm happy to stay here until I retire", "this is a club I've always wanted to join", "the fans are so special", blah, blah, blah, you have to take these statements & cliches with a pinch of salt & not get all piffy when you find out there ain't much substance behind them!!

 

Think the Club have made a decent effort clearing up the shift left behind, and my gut feel is that overall we have been weakened by the summer's dealings, but not massively.

[saintbletch]

See you are mishearing again. There were emphatic statements by the club stating the position, but people chose to not take it on face value but read between the lines and try to find the second meaning in everything. People were convinced of a doomsday scenario and were trying to interpret the club statements to fit their idea of events.

 

As the statements were clear, by poor do you mean the frequency; because for the level headed the frequency was fine, others demanded a running commentary of statements from the club covering the summer dealings, well you are just not going to get that.

 

I think it's important to document the events from this period as we each saw them so that this summer's activities aren't seen solely reviewed through 20-20 hindsight. Context is essential.

 

So I'd like address the points in bold above because you seem to be painting those that interpreted the club's acts and statements differently from you as having some sort of agenda. At the very least, you suggest that people chose to not take statements on face value. I'm saying that given the poor quality of communication from the club, "face value" is subjective. The statements issued by the club were anything but clear and emphatic, and were open to interpretation especially when they were apparently contradicted by the club's actions.

 

You say that there were emphatic statements by the club stating the position. Well the first time I felt that things might not be right was the contradictions I saw between the first major statement made by Les Reed in April and the resultant loss of players and the Manager.

 

This statement from Les Reed included a phrase which is the very antithesis of clarity:

 

Any enquiries we get [for players] will probably be met with a ‘no – not for sale’

 

I've emboldened the part of the statement I have a problem with.

 

I guess you could point out that the use of the word "probably" in there was emphatic - in that the clear and unequivocal message that Les Reed wanted to get across was that players would probably not be sold. Semantically I can accept that, so in that sense, and with the benefit of hindsight, I guess I agree you were right.

 

Yet, the context of this statement and the purpose the club felt it would serve was to communicate the club's position, and to quell speculation that our manager would leave and that key players were about to jump ship and join other clubs. So given the role this statement was expected to play in denying the veracity of media reports, it's not surprising that many fans took Les Reed's comments to mean that our players would stay - despite his use of the qualifier "probably".

 

This interpretation was given more validity by Les Reed's own words earlier in the same statement:

 

No club has been given permission to talk to any of our players. That will remain so. As far as the policy is concerned, we’ve had a great season. We want to build on that season. We want to improve the squad going forward.

 

Now perhaps it is just me, but that certainly meets my definition of emphatic. That's pretty unequivocal. No club had been given permission and that will remain so.

 

Happy days.

 

At the time I felt that the term "probably" was a nod to the fact that we might sell Shaw, but keep our best players. This was backed up by Les Reed's closing remarks:

 

I think our fans deserve to understand that there is not going to be a fire-sale here. We’ve had no offers for players. Deals are not about to be concluded for any of our players and we want to keep all of our best players here at this club and build on that for the future.

 

Now I think Les Reed used the term "fire-sale" here to mean that assets weren't being sold ahead of the owner selling the club. But again, given the context of the statement and the purpose the club meant it to serve, many fans took that to mean that there would not be a mass-selling of players.

 

The overall impression I took away was that the reports linking players with moves away from the club were not true, and that we'd likely start next season with the same manager and all our best players.

 

By the time Calum Chambers joined Arsenal I had lost all faith in any communication from the club.

 

You might want to maintain that the club communicated clearly and emphatically during this period. I disagree, yet I can easily see how you arrived at a different point of view. Do I think you are wrong? Yes. Do I think you are in some way not level-headed or that you are actively choosing to see things differently in holding these views? No. I can see how you've reached a different conclusion from viewing the same events.

 

As for the frequency of communication being fine for level-headed people, again I fear that you're allowing your own view of the situation to stop empathy for others' positions. If you saw no contradiction throughout the summer, then you would not need more statements. This I understand. But when I saw actions that contradicted statements from the club, I wanted to see new statements that would help me reconcile the discrepancies.

 

Trust is a fragile thing. It takes a long time to create and if treated carelessly it's gone. One clumsy interview followed by silence from key personnel whilst the club's actions apparently contradicted its words, was all it took for me to lose faith that the club was communicating openly with its fans. Hindsight helps me to see that this was cock-up and not conspiracy, but in the middle of the saga I couldn't tell if I were being lied to, or just communicated to by incompetents.

 

Again, I'm not saying you were wrong to interpret things the way you did. Far from it; with the benefit of hindsight you were right. I'm asking you to consider how the non-level-headed amongst us might have seen the same events and reached different conclusions.

Edited 6 September, 2014 by saintbletch
Lots of ugly typos

[Weston Saint]

Absolutely. In the current era, power has switched to mercenary players & unscrupulous agents. There was no premeditated firesale, no closing down clearance & no Club being left abandoned. Instead the Club were left to clear up the shift of a number of players putting their own interests first (whether that was selfish & disloyal, or instead a reflection of the modern game/society or just wanting to better themselves is another argument).

 

Even if players were forcing the Club's hand and demanding a move, then the Club issuing a not for sale is a reasonable response, not least to ensure a premium price is achieved if we have to sell. As with "I've signed a 5 yr deal & I'm happy to stay here until I retire", "this is a club I've always wanted to join", "the fans are so special", blah, blah, blah, you have to take these statements & cliches with a pinch of salt & not get all piffy when you find out there ain't much substance behind them!!

 

Think the Club have made a decent effort clearing up the shift left behind, and my gut feel is that overall we have been weakened by the summer's dealings, but not massively.

Good post Steve. Agree with the content.

[Lets B Avenue]

I think it's important to document the events from this period as we each saw them so that this summer's activities aren't seen solely reviewed through 20-20 hindsight. Context is essential.

 

So I'd like address the points in bold above because you seem to be painting those that interpreted the club's acts and statements differently from you as having some sort of agenda. At the very least, you suggest that people chose to not to take statements on face value. I'm saying that given the quality of communication from the club, "face value" is subjective. The statements issued by the club were anything but clear and emphatic, and were open to interpretation especially when apparently contradicted by the club's actions.

 

You say that there were emphatic statements by the club stating the position. Well the first time I felt that things might not be right was the contradictions I saw between the first major statement made by Les Reed in April and the resultant loss of players and the Manager.

 

This statement included a phrase which is the very antithesis of clarity:

 

 

 

I've emboldened the part of the statement I have a problem with.

 

I guess you could point out that the use of the word probably in there was emphatic - in that the clear and unequivocal message that Les Reed wanted to get across was that players would probably not be sold. Semantically I can accept that, so in that sense, and with the benefit of hindsight, I guess I agree you were right.

 

Yet, the context of this statement and the purpose the club felt it would serve was to communicate the club's position, and to quell speculation that our manager would leave and key players were about to jump ship and join other clubs. So given the role this statement was expected to play in denying the veracity of media reports, it's not surprising that many fans took Les Reed's comments to mean that our players would stay - despite his use of the qualifier "probably".

 

This interpretation was given more validity by Les Reed's own words earlier in the same statement:

 

 

 

Now perhaps it is just me, but that certainly meets my definition of emphatic. That's pretty unequivocal. No club had been given permission and that will remain so.

 

Happy days.

 

At the time, I felt that the term "probably" was a nod to the fact that we might sell Shaw, and this was backed up by Les Reed's closing remarks:

 

 

 

Now I think Les Reed used the term "fire-sale" here to mean that assets weren't being sold ahead of the owner selling the club. But again, given the context of the statement and the purpose the club meant it to serve, many fans took that to mean that we would not be a mass-selling of players.

 

The overall impression I took away was that the reports linking players with moves away from the club were not true, and that we'd likely start next season with the same manager and all our best players.

 

By the time Calum Chambers joined Arsenal I had lost all faith in any communication from the club.

 

You might want to maintain that the club communicated clearly and emphatically during this period, I disagree, yet I can easily see you arrived at a different point of view. Do I think you are wrong? Yes. Do I think you are in some way not level-headed or that you are actively choosing to see things differently in holding these views? No. I can see how you've reached a different conclusion from viewing the same events.

 

As for the frequency of communication being fine for level-headed people, again I fear that you're allowing your own view of the situation to stop empathy for others' positions. If you saw no contradiction throughout the summer, then you would not need more statements. This I understand. But when I saw actions that contradicted statements from the club, I wanted to see new statements that would help me reconcile the discrepancies.

 

Trust is a fragile thing. It takes a long time to create and if treated carelessly it's gone. One clumsy interview followed by silence from key personnel whilst the clubs actions apparently contradicted its words, was all it took for me to lose faith that the club was communicating openly with its fans. Hindsight helps me to see that this was cock-up and not conspiracy, but in the middle of the saga I couldn't tell if I were being lied to, or just communicated to by incompetents.

 

Again, I'm not saying you were wrong to interpret things the way you did. Far from it; with the benefit of hindsight you were right. I'm asking you to consider how the non-level-headed amongst us might have seen the same events and reached different conclusions.

 

You forgot "Tokes is a ****."

[saintbletch]

You forgot "Tokes is a ****."

 

Good spot Lets B Avenue, but I can assure you that as long as I live I will never forget that Toke's a ****.

[Wes Tender]

Pretty sure this has run its course...

 

I agree. When it gets to the stage that statements made by the board are dissected for minutiae of interpretation and innuendo, then it is time to call time on it all. Let's just accept that things have turned out pretty well regardless and if some wish to believe that in their opinion the board handled the communication side of it badly, then they can hope that lessons have been learned for the next time.

[saintbletch]

I agree. When it gets to the stage that statements made by the board are dissected for minutiae of interpretation and innuendo, then it is time to call time on it all. Let's just accept that things have turned out pretty well regardless and if some wish to believe that in their opinion the board handled the communication side of it badly, then they can hope that lessons have been learned for the next time.

 

Amen.

[CB Fry]

I think it's important to document the events from this period as we each saw them so that this summer's activities aren't seen solely reviewed through 20-20 hindsight. Context is essential.

 

So I'd like address the points in bold above because you seem to be painting those that interpreted the club's acts and statements differently from you as having some sort of agenda. At the very least, you suggest that people chose to not take statements on face value. I'm saying that given the poor quality of communication from the club, "face value" is subjective. The statements issued by the club were anything but clear and emphatic, and were open to interpretation especially when they were apparently contradicted by the club's actions.

 

You say that there were emphatic statements by the club stating the position. Well the first time I felt that things might not be right was the contradictions I saw between the first major statement made by Les Reed in April and the resultant loss of players and the Manager.

 

This statement from Les Reed included a phrase which is the very antithesis of clarity:

 

 

 

I've emboldened the part of the statement I have a problem with.

 

I guess you could point out that the use of the word "probably" in there was emphatic - in that the clear and unequivocal message that Les Reed wanted to get across was that players would probably not be sold. Semantically I can accept that, so in that sense, and with the benefit of hindsight, I guess I agree you were right.

 

Yet, the context of this statement and the purpose the club felt it would serve was to communicate the club's position, and to quell speculation that our manager would leave and that key players were about to jump ship and join other clubs. So given the role this statement was expected to play in denying the veracity of media reports, it's not surprising that many fans took Les Reed's comments to mean that our players would stay - despite his use of the qualifier "probably".

 

This interpretation was given more validity by Les Reed's own words earlier in the same statement:

 

 

 

Now perhaps it is just me, but that certainly meets my definition of emphatic. That's pretty unequivocal. No club had been given permission and that will remain so.

 

Happy days.

 

At the time I felt that the term "probably" was a nod to the fact that we might sell Shaw, but keep our best players. This was backed up by Les Reed's closing remarks:

 

 

 

Now I think Les Reed used the term "fire-sale" here to mean that assets weren't being sold ahead of the owner selling the club. But again, given the context of the statement and the purpose the club meant it to serve, many fans took that to mean that there would not be a mass-selling of players.

 

The overall impression I took away was that the reports linking players with moves away from the club were not true, and that we'd likely start next season with the same manager and all our best players.

 

By the time Calum Chambers joined Arsenal I had lost all faith in any communication from the club.

 

You might want to maintain that the club communicated clearly and emphatically during this period. I disagree, yet I can easily see how you arrived at a different point of view. Do I think you are wrong? Yes. Do I think you are in some way not level-headed or that you are actively choosing to see things differently in holding these views? No. I can see how you've reached a different conclusion from viewing the same events.

 

As for the frequency of communication being fine for level-headed people, again I fear that you're allowing your own view of the situation to stop empathy for others' positions. If you saw no contradiction throughout the summer, then you would not need more statements. This I understand. But when I saw actions that contradicted statements from the club, I wanted to see new statements that would help me reconcile the discrepancies.

 

Trust is a fragile thing. It takes a long time to create and if treated carelessly it's gone. One clumsy interview followed by silence from key personnel whilst the club's actions apparently contradicted its words, was all it took for me to lose faith that the club was communicating openly with its fans. Hindsight helps me to see that this was cock-up and not conspiracy, but in the middle of the saga I couldn't tell if I were being lied to, or just communicated to by incompetents.

 

Again, I'm not saying you were wrong to interpret things the way you did. Far from it; with the benefit of hindsight you were right. I'm asking you to consider how the non-level-headed amongst us might have seen the same events and reached different conclusions.

Flipping long old post that.

 

Weird simultaneous demands for empathy while also using the trademark Alpine "well, its easy with hindsight" get-out.

 

I think one can and did have empathy with knee jerk "it's a fire sale" lunatics. It's fine. We understood you. You were wrong that's all.

 

And plenty on here were right. Not "with hindsight" but with foresight. At the time.

 

Maybe those people who were right at the time showed a little bit of the "empathy" you're demanding for yourself with the people running the club? Clever stuff, dat empathy.

[saintbletch]

Flipping long old post that.

 

Weird simultaneous demands for empathy while also using the trademark Alpine "well, its easy with hindsight" get-out.

 

I think one can and did have empathy with knee jerk "it's a fire sale" lunatics. It's fine. We understood you. You were wrong that's all.

 

And plenty on here were right. Not "with hindsight" but with foresight. At the time.

 

Maybe those people who were right at the time showed a little bit of the "empathy" you're demanding for yourself with the people running the club? Clever stuff, dat empathy.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it CB Fry, I'm just sorry that it made you so angry.

 

That was never my intention.

[CB Fry]

Thanks for taking the time to read it CB Fry, I'm just sorry that it made you so angry.

 

That was never my intention.

It didn't make me angry in the slightest.

[saintbletch]

It didn't make me angry in the slightest.

 

Ah, OK.

 

You mean you don't even realise how your posts come across?

[CB Fry]

Ah, OK.

 

You mean you don't even realise how your posts come across?

The intent is mainly to wind up people demanding empathy for people who spent the summer being angry at a fire sale that didn't happen and was never happening.

 

Job done.

[Goatboy]

Been away for a while. Have I missed anything? Have we decided who the wrongers and righters are yet?

Please give short answers as I drink so much I will have forgotten the replies within minutes.

Thanks in advance.

[CB Fry]

Been away for a while. Have I missed anything? Have we decided who the wrongers and righters are yet?

Please give short answers as I drink so much I will have forgotten the replies within minutes.

Thanks in advance.

No, and yes.

[Goatboy]

No, and yes.

 

Many thanks.

[Goatboy]

What were the questions?