St Chalet Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Sevilla have a €2m annual salary cap. He would either be taking a cut or we would be subsidising. Can't imagine him taking a cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 For me we really shouldn't be letting anyone go even if he figured in your first 11 or not,until Koeman has found his feet he should keep all his options open,Only saw Gaston in the Bournemouth game and thought he controlled the game in large parts,I feel he has never been given a fair crack at the prem by any manager,he is mostly frustrating to watch but that game against Villa at home he was unplayable in and I believe he still has it in him to show it,I just hope RK gives him a chance to show it as I think he is a hidden gem that could really come good Looked decent v Leverkusen. I personally want him in the side. I'm sick and tired of slow motion moves that often bring the keeper into play. At least he is positive. I'm not sure this has any substance, one source, we'd be mad to reduce the size of our squad which Koeman says needs more players. Loaning doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Not sure how I feel about this, Gastón has always been about potential, but he's come a long way short of even middling expectations so far. We may have to deal with the unfortunate coincidence of Alpine being nearly right about something. That hasn't happened since we started a season with Makin and Bennett at centre back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Sevilla have a €2m annual salary cap. He would either be taking a cut or we would be subsidising. Can't imagine him taking a cut. From now until the end of the season that would still amount to €50k a weeek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DG Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Disappointing, need some creativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WealdSaint Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Can't see it happening myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints foreva Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Shame how the signing of Ramirez has worked out so far, he's been a massive disappointment considering it was pretty ground breaking for us to spend £12m on a player when we signed him. Still remember him tearing Villa a new one on his home debut. Won't be missed imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 (edited) I dont understand, why are we in uproar about Ramirez possibly leaving when he hardly ever plays? Why is it that we must have a creative replacement if he hardly ever plays? Btw, have we forgotten that we have Taider? Edited 27 August, 2014 by Saint Billy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Not sure how I feel about this, Gastón has always been about potential, but he's come a long way short of even middling expectations so far. We may have to deal with the unfortunate coincidence of Alpine being nearly right about something. That hasn't happened since we started a season with Makin and Bennett at centre back. The concern is: a) will we replace him? b) if we do, then do you trust the current regime to do so given this summers interesting spending c) if we don't, then that leaves us with ONE creative player in the entire squad. One. It's better the devil you know as far as I am concerned with Ramirez as b and c don't appeal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 I dont understand, why are we in uproar about Ramirez possibly leaving when he hardly ever plays? Why is it that we must have a creative replacement if he hardly ever plays? Btw, have we forgotten that we have There, fixed that for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint-ross Posted 27 August, 2014 Author Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Why not try posting it in the Transfer Rumours Thread That's exactly where i did post it. One of the mods then opened this thread using using my post. If you dont like it take it u with them. I love this place, always someone to have a swipe, doesnt matter what you post or where you post it, someones waiting for their pound of flesh. This is precisely why after 6 years on this place my post count is still below 300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Koeman must be supremely confident in Ward-Prowse as a central creator. It might also be that he's planning to put Tadic in the middle - where he probably belongs - with Isgrove and a new winger competing out wide. I think I'd take that. It would be a shame to see him go though or Clasie perhaps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Sevilla have a €2m annual salary cap. He would either be taking a cut or we would be subsidising. Can't imagine him taking a cut. Players on loan don't take cuts to their salary, all that is to be arranged is the % spilt of his existing contract with Saints between us and Sevilla. Ramirez won't see a difference to his wages whilst he remains a Saints player, even when out on loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Not sure we need him to be honest. If it meant getting Clasie in I'd let him go. But, I'm not sure we are going to see any top end players coming, the bigger named teams seem to be gathering up all our targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Players on loan don't take cuts to their salary, all that is to be arranged is the % spilt of his existing contract with Saints between us and Sevilla. Ramirez won't see a difference to his wages whilst he remains a Saints player, even when out on loan. I don't know what this forum would do without your insights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 I don't know what this forum would do without your insights. St Chalet thought players on loan could/would take cuts, perhaps others on the forum do as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 It would be madness to let a creative #10 go when we are crying out for a creative #10 Classie is a DM, if he joins I'd expect this to be as a replacement for Schneiderlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 St Chalet thought players on loan could/would take cuts, perhaps others on the forum do as well. This can never and would never happen could it? http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/josh-mceachran-takes-wage-cut-6593698 Don't worry I won't charge the board a fee for owning you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Mixed feelings about this really. Seems strange given our lack of options in that department, however, he's never really done it for us so maybe he needs to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 (edited) It makes no sense for him to agree to a pay cut. If you've signed a contract with Chelsea and they have to pay you the amount on the contract until date X, why would you then agree to a wage cut? Chelsea would have to pay him 100% if he stayed, if Chelsea pay even 90% of his wages when on loan and Wigan the other 10% then Chelsea are saving money and he still gets 100% of his Chelsea contract. Edited 27 August, 2014 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSAINT Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Is this move linked with FFP at all? Whilst I wouldn't let him go myself, I can only hope (if it becomes permanent) that we have got a stupidly high sell-on percentage written into the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 The quotes from Rosler make no mention of him taking a wage cut. It makes no sense for him to agree to a pay cut. If you've signed a contract with Chelsea and they have to pay you the amount on the contract until date X, why would you then agree to a wage cut? Chelsea would have to pay him 100% if he stayed, if Chelsea pay even 90% of his wages when on loan and Wigan the other 10% then Chelsea are saving money and he still gets 100% of his Chelsea contract. It is quite usual that when a player joins another team on loan that his parent club ask him to negotiate his terms for the duration of his loan with his new club and his existing contract is void for the period of the loan. For example, if a young promising player had a contract with Chelsea and earned 10k a week with 5k in bonus money every time he made a first team appearance, do you think Chelsea pay him an extra 5k he makes an appearance for the club he is on loan at? Our own Dani Osvaldo took a big pay cut when he joined Juventus last January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 http://www.insidefutbol.com/2012/08/17/they-will-pay-me-so-much-money-liverpool-target-gaston-ramirez-set-for-southampton/67264/ According to this, Gaston would be on circa €3.75m before tax. assuming at the time the exchange rate was £1 to €1.27 ( http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/GBP-EUR-17_08_2012-exchange-rate-history.html ) you are looking at a pre-tax outlay of £2.95m. I assume he's got some funky tax set up, but in the normal run of that equates to £57k per week Gross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 (edited) The quotes from Rosler make no mention of him taking a wage cut. It makes no sense for him to agree to a pay cut. If you've signed a contract with Chelsea and they have to pay you the amount on the contract until date X, why would you then agree to a wage cut? Chelsea would have to pay him 100% if he stayed, if Chelsea pay even 90% of his wages when on loan and Wigan the other 10% then Chelsea are saving money and he still gets 100% of his Chelsea contract. apart from from his quote, in that very article: "When a player sacrifices part of his wage, that is a great starting point.” Edited 27 August, 2014 by St Chalet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoPints Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Can't see why he would have played last night if we were planning of getting rid by the end of the week. Just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 Would be gutted. I'd rather sell Morgan. Same, we have an abundance of CMs/DMs but lack creativity and AM/wingers. Silly decision to just loan him out if this does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascadia Saint Posted 27 August, 2014 Share Posted 27 August, 2014 At last. Punch me !! Your autocorrect changed it to pinch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Would be pretty dumb to let Ramirez go. We needed another attacking player anyway, so now would need two. We always appear to be moving forward, and then regress, which is what loaning out Ramirez and selling Cork would be doing. Can't help from a cynical view but thinking the board will be very happy that they have removed some very big earners from the wage bill and replaced with players on far less. No one could ever accuse you of having a cynical point of view about the current Board Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 It is quite usual that when a player joins another team on loan that his parent club ask him to negotiate his terms for the duration of his loan with his new club and his existing contract is void for the period of the loan. For example, if a young promising player had a contract with Chelsea and earned 10k a week with 5k in bonus money every time he made a first team appearance, do you think Chelsea pay him an extra 5k he makes an appearance for the club he is on loan at? Our own Dani Osvaldo took a big pay cut when he joined Juventus last January. A contract is legally enforceable. It can only be varied with the agreement of all parties to the contract. A loan agreement is an additional contract. It does not replace or supercede the player's contract with the club that holds his registration but it can include any financial variations that are acceptable to the three parties, the owning club, the player and the borrowing club. No cut in pay can be imposed but it can be agreed to by the player, as he may see the playing opportunity as worth more to him in the longer term. How the player's wages are funded during the loan and who by are all matters for agreement between the clubs and the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 A contract is legally enforceable. It can only be varied with the agreement of all parties to the contract. A loan agreement is an additional contract. It does not replace or supercede the player's contract with the club that holds his registration but it can include any financial variations that are acceptable to the three parties, the owning club, the player and the borrowing club. No cut in pay can be imposed but it can be agreed to by the player, as he may see the playing opportunity as worth more to him in the longer term. How the player's wages are funded during the loan and who by are all matters for agreement between the clubs and the player. Have read that and am pretty sure you are agreeing with me other than my use of 'void' for the existing contract to be superceded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 I assume he's got some funky tax set up, but in the normal run of that equates to £57k per week Gross. I reckon that if I trimmed my spending a bit, I could just about struggle by on that. Just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 I reckon that if I trimmed my spending a bit, I could just about struggle by on that. Just. Not married then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooney Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 On his day he is excellent but those are few and far between. He cannot hold his place down and is regularly injured. Sadly, cannot afford him on his record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
There when Franny scored Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 http://www.footballfancast.com/football-news/southampton-prepare-yet-another-club-exit-as-sevilla-come-knocking Did Koeman ever say Ramirez wouldn't feature in his plans? I thought he said that he'd hoped to play him for longer against Millwall which doesn't reconcile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Not married then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Gaston is still here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 I agree he has not delivered with any consistency but I was hoping that this season would see him come good and realise his undoubted talent and so if this is true it is a disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 I agree he has not delivered with any consistency but I was hoping that this season would see him come good and realise his undoubted talent and so if this is true it is a disappointment. This is how I felt last year, and again this year. But the manager is on the ground and knows more than I do about all aspects of football, so I trust his view on things and let's face it, Gaston has had more than enough time to prove himself. Plus the financial side of shifting him (wholly or partially) off the wage bill is another important factor. Value for money he most certainly hasn't been (and that is both transfer fee and wages). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 How many consecutive games of 90 mins did he ever manage ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Probably the amount his ability in this league deserved. The answer was 2 which happened 3 times in the 12/13 season. He did manage to do 3 x 90min in a row once while at Bologna and once at Penarol. So during his whole career, he has never managed to do 4 games in a row for the full 90 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Abroad Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 How many consecutive games of 90 mins did he ever manage ? Edit: misread the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Edit: misread the question. How does that compare with Lallana, particularly as a percentage of games started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midfield_General Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Probably the amount his ability in this league deserved. The answer was 2 which happened 3 times in the 12/13 season. He did manage to do 3 x 90min in a row once while at Bologna and once at Penarol. So during his whole career, he has never managed to do 4 games in a row for the full 90 minutes. If that's true, at 23 years old, that's extraordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Probably the amount his ability in this league deserved. The answer was 2 which happened 3 times in the 12/13 season. He did manage to do 3 x 90min in a row once while at Bologna and once at Penarol. So during his whole career, he has never managed to do 4 games in a row for the full 90 minutes. Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 (edited) If that's true, at 23 years old, that's extraordinary. I agree that it is. Here is the data....just change the season and see for yourself. In fairness I was only after league games, but there might or might not be a cup game in the mix, but I think the point is made what ever the case. (Edit - checked and I don't think any cup game is relevant. so never 4 games for the full 90 in a row stands) http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/gaston-ramirez/leistungsdaten/spieler/123742/saison/2013 Edited 28 August, 2014 by angelman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 (edited) If that's true, at 23 years old, that's extraordinary. It's not that extraordinary when 3 players usually get replaced every match and attacking players are much more likely to get subbed than defenders or the goalkeeper to begin with, it gives him about a 50/50 chance of going off in any one match, all other things being equal. Add to that the likelihood that sides will have more midfield options than anywhere else on the pitch as they're most likely to get suspended, and they also spend more time involved in the play than those at the extremes of the pitch, and it's probably a LOT more likely than not that a midfielder will get subbed at least once in 4 consecutive matches. The Lallana comparison is fair, I think. He played 3 or more successive 90 minutes on 3 occasions last season, the most he managed was 5 matches in a row. Edited 28 August, 2014 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 (edited) How does that compare with Lallana, particularly as a percentage of games started? Lallana last season, when, let's not forget, he was far and away our Player of the Season and would be expected to be playing as much if not more than anyone considering his apparent value to the side: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/adam-lallana/leistungsdaten/spieler/43530/saison/2013 Edited 28 August, 2014 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midfield_General Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 Just reading his Wiki page and discovered that rather brilliantly, Gaston's home town is Fray Bentos. If he stays, his new song should be 'who ate all the pies'. That'd confuse him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandy Golac Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 It would be ridiculous to remove Gaston from our squad, we have had no creative spark in the last third this season. Ward-Prowse and Davis are very pedestrian and we were crying out for one of these two to be replaced last Saturday by a more creative player. I am sure Koeman can see this, If he can't, then I am very worried about where we are heading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
There when Franny scored Posted 28 August, 2014 Share Posted 28 August, 2014 http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/southampton-agree-to-sale-for-just-4-8m-may-actually-get-less There doesn't seem to be any point in selling him for this price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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