1400 incidents of sexual abuse in Rotherham. Admissions of cover-up based on race

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I work it out because you keep maintaining that political correctness is to blame for the cowardice of the child protection officers. It isn't; their fear is. They put their own careers ahead of child welfare, which means they shouldn't be working in child welfare.

 

It's always individual cowardice too; the fact that it seems to have been institution-wide is a damning indictment on the civil services' ability to cope with modern Britain. The law is the law; political considerations shouldn't enter into it.

 

It is not the cowardice of individuals and people on the ground; it was the political correct agenda that was implemented as standard policy at management level. This was endemic and still is all over the country.

 

The whole problem was that the law was not the law.

[pap]

It is not the cowardice of individuals and people on the ground; it was the political correct agenda that was implemented as standard policy at management level. This was endemic and still is all over the country.

 

The whole problem was that the law was not the law.

 

The point about the probity of the troops is well made.

 

The point about the management, less so. The flipside of leadership is accountability, and unfortunately, you cannot afford to be selective about what you're accountable for. They were responsible for protecting children, didn't, and will likely lose position and reputation because of it. Rightly so, imo. Maybe it'll set an example for the next people that decide that public perception is more important than child protection.

[saintfully]

The police did investigate many of these crimes following up information supplied by both the victims themselves and CPO's and yet felt unable to bring charges.

 

Why did the police feel unable to bring charges?

[Manuel]

Just further proof, as if it were needed, of the continued failure of multi-cultural/politically correct culture infesting many of our towns and cities.

People are only going to mix more and more as time goes on, it's inevitable. Differing cultures are going to have to learn to get on with it. If there were mistakes made by the authorities in this case then lessons need to be learned, but to bin the whole concept of multiculturalism because if this is hysterical.

 

Anyway, most of those decision makers within the authorites who failed to protect those kids were probably middle class white people. Perhaps we should chuck them out of the country.

[Smirking_Saint]

I think its a sad indication of events that a certain number of officials decided (agree Pap sickeningly) that they could not act on what appears to be systematic abuse of over 1400 human beings who will now have to live with not only the torment of the ordeals but realistically (and potentially more damaging) now they will be damaged by the knowledge that this abuse was known however was not acted upon.

 

Whilst this is tragic, and tragicly worse that, as Pap has said, officials put their career and reputations over the welfare of those they are looking after, you have to not overlook the fact that clearly there was a social concept that meant they had enough fear to enable them to decide that it was a reasonable way to act.

[DuncanRG]

Political correctness is one of the myriad horrifying institutional failures involved in letting these girls and their families down. That much is utterly uncontestable.

 

Multiculturalism and immigration are not among these failures.

[Sour Mash]

Spot the theme here.....

 

http://oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/69558/jailed-the-sex-gang-driven-by-lust-and-greed

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rochdale-sex-grooming-gang-police-2947712

 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/195951/Nine-man-gang-lured-girls-of-13-into-sex-slavery

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345084/Jail-sexual-predators-led-Asian-gang-abused-girls-young-12.html

[pap]

Spot the theme here.....

 

http://oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/69558/jailed-the-sex-gang-driven-by-lust-and-greed

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rochdale-sex-grooming-gang-police-2947712

 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/195951/Nine-man-gang-lured-girls-of-13-into-sex-slavery

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345084/Jail-sexual-predators-led-Asian-gang-abused-girls-young-12.html

 

 

What is your appraisal of the situation and your proposed solution?

 

While these links may inform the debate, I'd like to hear your take, plainly stated.

[Sour Mash]

What is your appraisal of the situation and your proposed solution?

 

While these links may inform the debate, I'd like to hear your take, plainly stated.

My appraisal of the situation? A massive clash of cultures, one where the grooming of children of an "inferior race/culture" is clearly seen as acceptable by many from one community.

 

The solution? That is a tough one and I'm not sure if the differences are already too far entrenched, but my only solution would be increased police resources directed into these communities around the country, an end to all and any immigration from Pakistan into the UK and a re-education of some kind of the public services across these areas and communities.

[Ludwig]

Spot the theme here.....

 

http://oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/69558/jailed-the-sex-gang-driven-by-lust-and-greed

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rochdale-sex-grooming-gang-police-2947712

 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/195951/Nine-man-gang-lured-girls-of-13-into-sex-slavery

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345084/Jail-sexual-predators-led-Asian-gang-abused-girls-young-12.html

 

 

is the theme something along the lines of deliberately picking news stories of abuse involving Asians whilst ignoring all reports of abuse by non asians?

 

People of all colours and religions, all over the world do bad things. Paedophiles are paedophiles, not muslim paedophiles or white paedophiles or ginger paedophiles. Those committing crimes need to be caught and punished, wherever they are in the world and whatever their background. But to pretend this is an issue confined to Asians or Muslims or northern cities or any other particular group is bullsh*t.

 

And its no surprise to see the usual names appear on this thread to use such a sad story to beat Muslims and start their anti immigration campaigns.

 

Saint in Paradise - i don't know what paradise is like but if it makes people as bitter and twisted as you, its over rated.

[Sour Mash]

is the theme something along the lines of deliberately picking news stories of abuse involving Asians whilst ignoring all reports of abuse by non asians?

No, its about gangs grooming children, which is the subject of the thread as I'm sure you've noticed. And the theme isn't "Asian" by the way, it's "Muslim".

[saintbletch]

My appraisal of the situation? A massive clash of cultures, one where the grooming of children of an "inferior race/culture" is clearly seen as acceptable by many from one community.

 

The solution? That is a tough one and I'm not sure if the differences are already too far entrenched, but my only solution would be increased police resources directed into these communities around the country, an end to all and any immigration from Pakistan into the UK and a re-education of some kind of the public services across these areas and communities.

 

Define many.

 

Define one community.

[pap]

My appraisal of the situation? A massive clash of cultures, one where the grooming of children of an "inferior race/culture" is clearly seen as acceptable by many from one community.

 

The solution? That is a tough one and I'm not sure if the differences are already too far entrenched, but my only solution would be increased police resources directed into these communities around the country, an end to all and any immigration from Pakistan into the UK and a re-education of some kind of the public services across these areas and communities.

 

First of all, fair play for putting some meat on the bones of your viewpoint.

 

However, I'm not sure that increased racial profiling is the answer. According to a lot of my mates, we do rather enough of that already. I don't think we have any real problem with coppers being afraid of minorities; if anything, it's quite the opposite. The Rotheram failures occurred at management level.

 

In the continued spirit of honesty, would you send them all back if you had the chance? We can start with Pakistanis if that's too broad a question.

[bridge too far]

is the theme something along the lines of deliberately picking news stories of abuse involving Asians whilst ignoring all reports of abuse by non asians?

I'm as distressed and angry about these revelations as every right minded person would be. I'm not going to become embroiled in lengthy discussions about the whys and wherefores.

But remembering an earlier poster's comments about child sexual abuse by clergy, politicians, 'celebrities' etc. I would add this:

 

70% of child abuse is carried out by a person known to the child's family or, indeed, a member of the child's family.

 

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/news-and-views/our-news/child-protection-news/12-12-12-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-issue_wda93265.html

 

So, whilst we should all call for immediate reviews and actions, we shouldn't close our eyes to stuff far closer to our own homes.

[Sour Mash]

Define many.

 

Define one community.

Many = quite a lot. Community = group of people, living in a particular area, of similar culture, outlook, behaviours etc.

[Sour Mash]

First of all, fair play for putting some meat on the bones of your viewpoint.

 

However, I'm not sure that increased racial profiling is the answer. According to a lot of my mates, we do rather enough of that already. I don't think we have any real problem with coppers being afraid of minorities; if anything, it's quite the opposite. The Rotheram failures occurred at management level.

 

In the continued spirit of honesty, would you send them all back if you had the chance? We can start with Pakistanis if that's too broad a question.

Send all of who back? Every single person of Pakistani origin in this country?

[saintbletch]

Many = quite a lot. Community = group of people, living in a particular area, of similar culture, outlook, behaviours etc.

 

On behalf of the forum I accept your climbdown.

 

Thank you.

[Sour Mash]

On behalf of the forum I accept your climbdown.

 

Thank you.

What climb down?

[saintbletch]

What climb down?

 

Define many.

 

Define one community.

[pap]

Send all of who back? Every single person of Pakistani origin in this country?

 

Yeah, for starters. I mean, if you're going to petition for no more immigration from Pakistan, why stop there?

 

I'm a quarter Pakistani. I could send a limb back or something. Not quite sure what it'd do there.

[View From The Top]

let's not be coy and pretend the issue of Asian gangs grooming and abusing young vulnerable girls isn't a massive issue because it is. Morons like the EDL were talking about this years ago but the chattering classes and those outside places like Oldham, Rotherham, Bradford, Luton etc simply couldn't or wouldn't believe it. Perhaps the London centric media and the white middle classes should take their head out of the a*ses and actually look at what is happening.

[Sour Mash]

Yeah, for starters. I mean, if you're going to petition for no more immigration from Pakistan, why stop there?

 

I'm a quarter Pakistani. I could send a limb back or something. Not quite sure what it'd do there.

So stopping immigration and sending back every immigrant, no matter how settled and intergrated, are the same thing in your eyes? Strange approach.

[View From The Top]

Yeah, for starters. I mean, if you're going to petition for no more immigration from Pakistan, why stop there?

 

I'm a quarter Pakistani. I could send a limb back or something. Not quite sure what it'd do there.

A big issue has been that the immigration from Pakistan has been of uneducated, backwards peasants who have clustered and made little or no attempt at integration and insist their kids stick to the "old ways" and those kids are caught between two worlds.

[Ludwig]

let's not be coy and pretend the issue of Asian gangs grooming and abusing young vulnerable girls isn't a massive issue because it is. Morons like the EDL were talking about this years ago but the chattering classes and those outside places like Oldham, Rotherham, Bradford, Luton etc simply couldn't or wouldn't believe it. Perhaps the London centric media and the white middle classes should take their head out of the a*ses and actually look at what is happening.

 

 

i don't think anyone is saying it is mot happening. But grooming and paedophilia happens by all types of people. It is not something restricted to asians/muslims and that is the danger.....that certain types want to use this to forward their racist agenda.

Anyone committing crimes should be pursued and punished but lets not be coy and pretend that white people haven't formed paedophile gangs, many more of them than Asian gangs. The difference is no one uses these white gangs to take a swipe at the whole white community. And lets not be coy and pretend that isn't what is happening here with the racists and anti Islamic folk.

[pap]

So stopping immigration and sending back every immigrant, no matter how settled and intergrated, are the same thing in your eyes? Strange approach.

 

Nah, my comment was an attempt to determine whether it was the same thing in your eyes.

 

I'd still like an answer to that.

 

A big issue has been that the immigration from Pakistan has been of uneducated, backwards peasants who have clustered and made little or no attempt at integration and insist their kids stick to the "old ways" and those kids are caught between two worlds.

 

Not my personal experience. Great grandfather was a judge and the first Muslim mayor of Karachi. There are streets and schools are named for him in the city. Not sure you could find a better example of integration than my own grandad, but then he doesn't really hang around with other Pakistanis much.

 

That said, I recognise what you're saying - but would still say that this is more about ignorance and mutual validation within a social in-group, much as it is in other sex rings.

Edited 28 August, 2014 by pap

[Sour Mash]

Nah, my comment was an attempt to determine whether it was the same thing in your eyes.

 

I'd still like an answer to that.

 

No, it's not the same thing in my eyes.

[Halo Stickman]

Perhaps it’s worth reflecting that immigration is nothing new to this country. Below is a link to an extract from Frederick Engels’ The Condition of the Working Class in England, written in 1845. It contains a colourful description by Thomas Carlyle of the immigrants of those days. It’s interesting the difference nearly 170 years of integration has made, allied, of course, to the advancement of civilisation.

 

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch06.htm

Edited 28 August, 2014 by Halo Stickman

[Grey Crab]

And this

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?48104-Some-will-HATE-this#.U_3vwWRdVnI

 

That is genuinely one of the best threads on this forum. I liked CB Fry's summary.

[Rasiak-9-]

That is a good point. I think that if there had been more minority representation then they would have been unlikely to have had stood by and let it happen.

 

"Councillors can play an effective role in this, especially those representing the communities in question, but only if they act as facilitators of communication rather than barriers to it. One senior officer suggested that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers."

 

pg 93. just before the original quote.

 

So...yeah... apparently not.

[Rasiak-9-]

My opinion?

 

Multi-racialism is absolutely fine. There's nothing in Pakistani 'genetics' that makes a small portion of their community behave in this way or turn a blind eye to it.

 

Multiculturalism however, which essentially advocates that we should treat all ethnic and cultural groups completely differently according to whichever group they belong to, rather than as just parts of an overall culture has been an absolutely huge failure that has only divided people along racial and ethnic lines, which is exactly what it was supposed to avoid in the first place.

 

The idea that you can somehow create community cohesion by removing all traces of the host country's culture as if thats the problem is so delusional its unreal.

 

All races and peoples are equal. All cultures are not. Some cultures are actively better than others.

 

To believe that the kinds of cultures you'd be mortified to see your Western sister or mother live under are somehow fine and dandy for people with brown skin is true, genuine racism.

[Wade Garrett]

Anyone who decides to make their lives in this country should realign their nationality to British. In much the same way as immigrants moving to the USA become Americans.

 

If people don't want to become British they shouldn't come here. I am not talking about them abandoning their cultures, but they should attempt to integrate, and be proud to be British.

 

One thing that gets me in the Rotherham tragedy is that the police and other services saw these abusers as Pakistani. Race should never have come into their thinking on this issue, or to be honest any other issue. We should all be British.

[pap]

Anyone who decides to make their lives in this country should realign their nationality to British. In much the same way as immigrants moving to the USA become Americans.

 

If people don't want to become British they shouldn't come here. I am not talking about them abandoning their cultures, but they should attempt to integrate, and be proud to be British.

 

One thing that gets me in the Rotherham tragedy is that the police and other services saw these abusers as Pakistani. Race should never have come into their thinking on this issue, or to be honest any other issue. We should all be British.

 

I like much of this post. Only point of difference is the being proud part. That's the ideal, but it's not always possible, even for those born here.

[sadoldgit]

Anyone who decides to make their lives in this country should realign their nationality to British. In much the same way as immigrants moving to the USA become Americans.

 

If people don't want to become British they shouldn't come here. I am not talking about them abandoning their cultures, but they should attempt to integrate, and be proud to be British.

 

One thing that gets me in the Rotherham tragedy is that the police and other services saw these abusers as Pakistani. Race should never have come into their thinking on this issue, or to be honest any other issue. We should all be British.

 

I nearly went to live in the States a few years ago but as much as I would have lived by their laws and conventions there is no way I would be anything but British. It is in my DNA. Anything else is just cosmetic.

[pap]

I nearly went to live in the States a few years ago but as much as I would have lived by their laws and conventions there is no way I would be anything but British. It is in my DNA. Anything else is just cosmetic.

 

It's not in your DNA. If you'd been born in the US instead and raised there, you'd be as apple pie as the rest of them.

 

Besides, as a frequent visitor to the 'States myself, while you can remain English in outlook and voice, you've no choice but to assimilate. What are we going to do? Walk everywhere? Only hang out with other Brits? Whenever I'm over there, I hang around with Americans, observe their festivals, laws and customs. I drink cold ale.

 

Same thing in Spain; within a few days, working to a Spanish timetable, sleeping in the afternoon, running away from bulls and not being particularly arsed about being on time for social events, ever.

 

I was still English in those places, but was in no way living an English cultural lifestyle.

[Ludwig]

It's not in your DNA. If you'd been born in the US instead and raised there, you'd be as apple pie as the rest of them.

 

Besides, as a frequent visitor to the 'States myself, while you can remain English in outlook and voice, you've no choice but to assimilate. What are we going to do? Walk everywhere? Only hang out with other Brits? Whenever I'm over there, I hang around with Americans, observe their festivals, laws and customs. I drink cold ale.

 

Same thing in Spain; within a few days, working to a Spanish timetable, sleeping in the afternoon, running away from bulls and not being particularly arsed about being on time for social events, ever.

 

I was still English in those places, but was in no way living an English cultural lifestyle.

 

 

you're rapidly becoming the new hypochondriac. Is there anything you're not a full blown expert on? Just posting loads does mean you know loads. More and more of what you write is just rubbish. Misinformed and/or contradictory nonsense half the time. I used to think you were ok,but as time goes on you become more and more of a tit. Its not even the conspiracy stuff that most people pick up on, its the constant posting as if you're an expert (having a grandad from Pakistan, especially one who doesn't "hang around" with other Pakistanis, does not make you an expert on Pakistan or Pakistani immigration).

 

Oh, and while I'm at it, you are not a wide boy gangster. Your desire to fit in with the "forum hard men" is more than a little strange. You're a nerd. I'm sure you're a nice nerd with a good heart, but you're also incredibly self absorbed and have an over inflated sense of your own importance.

[pap]

you're rapidly becoming the new hypochondriac. Is there anything you're not a full blown expert on? Just posting loads does mean you know loads. More and more of what you write is just rubbish. Misinformed and/or contradictory nonsense half the time. I used to think you were ok,but as time goes on you become more and more of a tit. Its not even the conspiracy stuff that most people pick up on, its the constant posting as if you're an expert (having a grandad from Pakistan, especially one who doesn't "hang around" with other Pakistanis, does not make you an expert on Pakistan or Pakistani immigration).

 

Oh, and while I'm at it, you are not a wide boy gangster. Your desire to fit in with the "forum hard men" is more than a little strange. You're a nerd. I'm sure you're a nice nerd with a good heart, but you're also incredibly self absorbed and have an over inflated sense of your own importance.

 

I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything, but at the same time, not going to justify anything beyond what has already been written. There's no need. If you think the opinion of a 2nd generation product of Pakistani immigration isn't relevant on a thread that involves Pakistanis, that's your lookout. Personally, as someone that has seen both cultures, seen my grandad basically do the complete opposite of what is frequently charged (they don't integrate), I think that's a worthwhile perspective. Not a unique one; I've got a fúckload of cousins after all - but uncommon.

 

And while I'm at it, you're right. I'm not a wide boy gangster and have never claimed to be. I remember being briefly mocked on here for indicating that I knew few characters from the Liverpool underworld, the implication being that I have criminal connections elsewhere. I do, it's a pain in the arse, and frankly, it's one of the biggest reasons I moved to Liverpool. Needed to be by own man, and not have professional aspirations f**ked up by association with people close to me, in trouble with the law. I'll say no more, and to be perfectly honest, it's a shítload more of an explanation than I need to give or indeed, you deserve.

 

Well done for working out the nerd part. That must have taken painstaking research.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

 

 

Well done for working out the nerd part. That must have taken painstaking research.

 

[Verbal]

I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything, but at the same time, not going to justify anything beyond what has already been written. There's no need. If you think the opinion of a 2nd generation product of Pakistani immigration isn't relevant on a thread that involves Pakistanis, that's your lookout. Personally, as someone that has seen both cultures, seen my grandad basically do the complete opposite of what is frequently charged (they don't integrate), I think that's a worthwhile perspective. Not a unique one; I've got a fúckload of cousins after all - but uncommon.

 

And while I'm at it, you're right. I'm not a wide boy gangster and have never claimed to be. I remember being briefly mocked on here for indicating that I knew few characters from the Liverpool underworld, the implication being that I have criminal connections elsewhere. I do, it's a pain in the arse, and frankly, it's one of the biggest reasons I moved to Liverpool. Needed to be by own man, and not have professional aspirations f**ked up by association with people close to me, in trouble with the law. I'll say no more, and to be perfectly honest, it's a shítload more of an explanation than I need to give or indeed, you deserve.

 

Well done for working out the nerd part. That must have taken painstaking research.

 

Actually, your background is irrelevant. From what you say, your grandfather was a Sindhi – either that or a Mohajir. That’s far removed from the backgrounds the majority of Pakistanis in Britain.

 

If you don’t believe me, try a little test (I dare you). Catch a flight to Karachi, where you say your grandfather is from, and look around you. You’ll see an awful lot of people looking nothing like British Pakistanis – including, interestingly, black Pakistanis, as well as some with blue eyes and blonde hair (largely among the substantial Pushtun refugee population).

 

The vast majority of British Pakistanis – over 75% - have their family origins in a tiny area of Kashmir, in the villages around the city of Mirpur. Why did they end up here? Because a giant dam (at Mangla) displaced them, and the British government at the time, under pressure to secure cheap labour for northern mills, etc., offered some of these displaced villagers employment.

 

These villagers were ill-educated, from a religiously highly conservative area (this is Kashmir after all, the source of so much tension – even in the news today – between Pakistan and India), and with rigidly patriarchal family structures designed to protect what little wealth was around (in which what we call incest – first-cousin marriages – is rife).

 

So think about it: these villagers settling in northern British towns were moving from East to West, from a war zone to a peaceful country, from rural to urban, and from a culture of religious conservatism to secular liberalism. Some head snap!

 

How does this all connect to the abuse we’ve learned about? If, having got as far as Karachi, you travel on to Mirpur, you’re in for a colossal surprise. Almost of all of what’s called ‘Azad’ (‘free’) Kashmir is still dirt poor. Even the few cars around are amount to a vintage parade of 1970s Toyotas and Nissans.

 

The exception is Mirpur. There’s still plenty of poverty there – but also some stunning mansions. These are owned by families with members in Britain. Even a taxi driver in the UK, sending small ‘remittances’ back to Kashmir, can afford the life of Riley for his family back in Kashmir.

 

The problem is that when you overlay this wealth with the cultural background of British Mirpuris, it establishes the preconditions for the kinds of appalling abuse we’ve heard about in Rotherham, Bradford, Burnley, Luton and even Oxford. Family pressures are still on marrying within the family to preserve wealth – but now with much higher stakes (no one wants to divide up the family mansion). This means pressure on young men only to marry women cousins, and pressure on young women to commit to marriages which many resist and a few find themselves in forced marriages.

 

There’s yet another layer to this: immigration. The originally small numbers of Mirpuri migrants have been able to grow substantially in the UK, partly because these tight, rigidly controlled family structures have enabled the movement of extended family members across borders.

 

The flip side of all this is a powerful, drummed-in message that denigrates non-Kashmiri girls and women - in this case, young white-British girls. Think of the ferocious cultural pressure it takes to make marrying your cousin attractive! So non-Kashmiri girls are trash, uncultured, worthless…etc., ad nauseum.

 

These pressures are exerted directly by the families and reinforced by so-called ‘elders’ – actually self-appointed Imams (always men of course) whose duel role is to maintain community cohesion and represent a united front to outsiders (including police).

 

This is at least part of the backdrop of this frightening abuse. The answer, I’m afraid, is the integration of the fiercely isolationist elements (often dominant ones) in the Kashmiri communities. We should all, however, be careful of generalising too much – there are plenty of young British Pakistanis in these cities who rebel against these strictures, do not abuse women, and who lead exemplary lives. The girls who’ve suffered are the primary victims here – but these liberalising Pakistanis are collateral damage in the backlash represented by certain posters on this thread.

 

Oh, and the gangster stuff? Are you still on that guff?

[hypochondriac]

you're rapidly becoming the new hypochondriac. Is there anything you're not a full blown expert on? Just posting loads does mean you know loads. More and more of what you write is just rubbish. Misinformed and/or contradictory nonsense half the time. I used to think you were ok,but as time goes on you become more and more of a tit. Its not even the conspiracy stuff that most people pick up on, its the constant posting as if you're an expert (having a grandad from Pakistan, especially one who doesn't "hang around" with other Pakistanis, does not make you an expert on Pakistan or Pakistani immigration).

 

Oh, and while I'm at it, you are not a wide boy gangster. Your desire to fit in with the "forum hard men" is more than a little strange. You're a nerd. I'm sure you're a nice nerd with a good heart, but you're also incredibly self absorbed and have an over inflated sense of your own importance.

 

You have mentioned me an awful lot lately yet I rarely if ever refer to you. It's a bit weird.

[CB Fry]

you're rapidly becoming the new hypochondriac. Is there anything you're not a full blown expert on? Just posting loads does mean you know loads. More and more of what you write is just rubbish. Misinformed and/or contradictory nonsense half the time. I used to think you were ok,but as time goes on you become more and more of a tit. Its not even the conspiracy stuff that most people pick up on, its the constant posting as if you're an expert (having a grandad from Pakistan, especially one who doesn't "hang around" with other Pakistanis, does not make you an expert on Pakistan or Pakistani immigration).

 

Oh, and while I'm at it, you are not a wide boy gangster. Your desire to fit in with the "forum hard men" is more than a little strange. You're a nerd. I'm sure you're a nice nerd with a good heart, but you're also incredibly self absorbed and have an over inflated sense of your own importance.

 

In fairness he does have access to a lot of great resources.

[hypochondriac]

 

.

[Gemmel]

Actually I've come to quite like Pap, I don't think we are ever going to tick the same boxes on a ballot paper, but he stands up for what he thinks is right and probably has a bit more balls than the rest of us in doing so. He laughs at me for believing what I read/see/hear in the press and I laugh at him that everything is a conspiracy.

[Miltonaggro]

Actually, your background is irrelevant. From what you say, your grandfather was a Sindhi – either that or a Mohajir. That’s far removed from the backgrounds the majority of Pakistanis in Britain.

 

If you don’t believe me, try a little test (I dare you). Catch a flight to Karachi, where you say your grandfather is from, and look around you. You’ll see an awful lot of people looking nothing like British Pakistanis – including, interestingly, black Pakistanis, as well as some with blue eyes and blonde hair (largely among the substantial Pushtun refugee population).

 

The vast majority of British Pakistanis – over 75% - have their family origins in a tiny area of Kashmir, in the villages around the city of Mirpur. Why did they end up here? Because a giant dam (at Mangla) displaced them, and the British government at the time, under pressure to secure cheap labour for northern mills, etc., offered some of these displaced villagers employment.

 

These villagers were ill-educated, from a religiously highly conservative area (this is Kashmir after all, the source of so much tension – even in the news today – between Pakistan and India), and with rigidly patriarchal family structures designed to protect what little wealth was around (in which what we call incest – first-cousin marriages – is rife).

 

So think about it: these villagers settling in northern British towns were moving from East to West, from a war zone to a peaceful country, from rural to urban, and from a culture of religious conservatism to secular liberalism. Some head snap!

 

How does this all connect to the abuse we’ve learned about? If, having got as far as Karachi, you travel on to Mirpur, you’re in for a colossal surprise. Almost of all of what’s called ‘Azad’ (‘free’) Kashmir is still dirt poor. Even the few cars around are amount to a vintage parade of 1970s Toyotas and Nissans.

 

The exception is Mirpur. There’s still plenty of poverty there – but also some stunning mansions. These are owned by families with members in Britain. Even a taxi driver in the UK, sending small ‘remittances’ back to Kashmir, can afford the life of Riley for his family back in Kashmir.

 

The problem is that when you overlay this wealth with the cultural background of British Mirpuris, it establishes the preconditions for the kinds of appalling abuse we’ve heard about in Rotherham, Bradford, Burnley, Luton and even Oxford. Family pressures are still on marrying within the family to preserve wealth – but now with much higher stakes (no one wants to divide up the family mansion). This means pressure on young men only to marry women cousins, and pressure on young women to commit to marriages which many resist and a few find themselves in forced marriages.

 

There’s yet another layer to this: immigration. The originally small numbers of Mirpuri migrants have been able to grow substantially in the UK, partly because these tight, rigidly controlled family structures have enabled the movement of extended family members across borders.

 

The flip side of all this is a powerful, drummed-in message that denigrates non-Kashmiri girls and women - in this case, young white-British girls. Think of the ferocious cultural pressure it takes to make marrying your cousin attractive! So non-Kashmiri girls are trash, uncultured, worthless…etc., ad nauseum.

 

These pressures are exerted directly by the families and reinforced by so-called ‘elders’ – actually self-appointed Imams (always men of course) whose duel role is to maintain community cohesion and represent a united front to outsiders (including police).

 

This is at least part of the backdrop of this frightening abuse. The answer, I’m afraid, is the integration of the fiercely isolationist elements (often dominant ones) in the Kashmiri communities. We should all, however, be careful of generalising too much – there are plenty of young British Pakistanis in these cities who rebel against these strictures, do not abuse women, and who lead exemplary lives. The girls who’ve suffered are the primary victims here – but these liberalising Pakistanis are collateral damage in the backlash represented by certain posters on this thread.

 

Oh, and the gangster stuff? Are you still on that guff?

 

Nail on the head!

[pap]

Verbal's post is too long to address point by point, and there's much I wouldn't be in a position, or have the inclination to dispute in any case. The detail on Mirpur/Kashmir is diverting, but does it add anything more to our understanding than "validation within an in-group"? I'm not sure.

 

btw, cheers for the nice words, Gemmel. Not great at taking praise, so ta.

[saintfully]

Actually, your background is irrelevant. From what you say, your grandfather was a Sindhi – either that or a Mohajir. That’s far removed from the backgrounds the majority of Pakistanis in Britain.

 

If you don’t believe me, try a little test (I dare you). Catch a flight to Karachi, where you say your grandfather is from, and look around you. You’ll see an awful lot of people looking nothing like British Pakistanis – including, interestingly, black Pakistanis, as well as some with blue eyes and blonde hair (largely among the substantial Pushtun refugee population).

 

The vast majority of British Pakistanis – over 75% - have their family origins in a tiny area of Kashmir, in the villages around the city of Mirpur. Why did they end up here? Because a giant dam (at Mangla) displaced them, and the British government at the time, under pressure to secure cheap labour for northern mills, etc., offered some of these displaced villagers employment.

 

These villagers were ill-educated, from a religiously highly conservative area (this is Kashmir after all, the source of so much tension – even in the news today – between Pakistan and India), and with rigidly patriarchal family structures designed to protect what little wealth was around (in which what we call incest – first-cousin marriages – is rife).

 

So think about it: these villagers settling in northern British towns were moving from East to West, from a war zone to a peaceful country, from rural to urban, and from a culture of religious conservatism to secular liberalism. Some head snap!

 

How does this all connect to the abuse we’ve learned about? If, having got as far as Karachi, you travel on to Mirpur, you’re in for a colossal surprise. Almost of all of what’s called ‘Azad’ (‘free’) Kashmir is still dirt poor. Even the few cars around are amount to a vintage parade of 1970s Toyotas and Nissans.

 

The exception is Mirpur. There’s still plenty of poverty there – but also some stunning mansions. These are owned by families with members in Britain. Even a taxi driver in the UK, sending small ‘remittances’ back to Kashmir, can afford the life of Riley for his family back in Kashmir.

 

The problem is that when you overlay this wealth with the cultural background of British Mirpuris, it establishes the preconditions for the kinds of appalling abuse we’ve heard about in Rotherham, Bradford, Burnley, Luton and even Oxford. Family pressures are still on marrying within the family to preserve wealth – but now with much higher stakes (no one wants to divide up the family mansion). This means pressure on young men only to marry women cousins, and pressure on young women to commit to marriages which many resist and a few find themselves in forced marriages.

 

There’s yet another layer to this: immigration. The originally small numbers of Mirpuri migrants have been able to grow substantially in the UK, partly because these tight, rigidly controlled family structures have enabled the movement of extended family members across borders.

 

The flip side of all this is a powerful, drummed-in message that denigrates non-Kashmiri girls and women - in this case, young white-British girls. Think of the ferocious cultural pressure it takes to make marrying your cousin attractive! So non-Kashmiri girls are trash, uncultured, worthless…etc., ad nauseum.

 

These pressures are exerted directly by the families and reinforced by so-called ‘elders’ – actually self-appointed Imams (always men of course) whose duel role is to maintain community cohesion and represent a united front to outsiders (including police).

 

This is at least part of the backdrop of this frightening abuse. The answer, I’m afraid, is the integration of the fiercely isolationist elements (often dominant ones) in the Kashmiri communities. We should all, however, be careful of generalising too much – there are plenty of young British Pakistanis in these cities who rebel against these strictures, do not abuse women, and who lead exemplary lives. The girls who’ve suffered are the primary victims here – but these liberalising Pakistanis are collateral damage in the backlash represented by certain posters on this thread.

 

Oh, and the gangster stuff? Are you still on that guff?

 

This appears very informative and, superficially at least, appears helpful in explaining why this group of abusers has emerged, (not to say that there aren't other groups of abusers who don't fit this profile).

 

How have you come to know the story?

[Grey Crab]

You have mentioned me an awful lot lately yet I rarely if ever refer to you. It's a bit weird.

 

That's an odd comment. Do you expect to only be mentioned if you mention somebody? What an odd idea. You do realise that your ubiquity on this website means that your brand of stupidity is hard to avoid when reading threads, and thus people might make comment on it? Thicko.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Actually, your background is irrelevant. From what you say, your grandfather was a Sindhi – either that or a Mohajir. That’s far removed from the backgrounds the majority of Pakistanis in Britain.

 

If you don’t believe me, try a little test (I dare you). Catch a flight to Karachi, where you say your grandfather is from, and look around you. You’ll see an awful lot of people looking nothing like British Pakistanis – including, interestingly, black Pakistanis, as well as some with blue eyes and blonde hair (largely among the substantial Pushtun refugee population).

 

The vast majority of British Pakistanis – over 75% - have their family origins in a tiny area of Kashmir, in the villages around the city of Mirpur. Why did they end up here? Because a giant dam (at Mangla) displaced them, and the British government at the time, under pressure to secure cheap labour for northern mills, etc., offered some of these displaced villagers employment.

 

These villagers were ill-educated, from a religiously highly conservative area (this is Kashmir after all, the source of so much tension – even in the news today – between Pakistan and India), and with rigidly patriarchal family structures designed to protect what little wealth was around (in which what we call incest – first-cousin marriages – is rife).

 

So think about it: these villagers settling in northern British towns were moving from East to West, from a war zone to a peaceful country, from rural to urban, and from a culture of religious conservatism to secular liberalism. Some head snap!

 

How does this all connect to the abuse we’ve learned about? If, having got as far as Karachi, you travel on to Mirpur, you’re in for a colossal surprise. Almost of all of what’s called ‘Azad’ (‘free’) Kashmir is still dirt poor. Even the few cars around are amount to a vintage parade of 1970s Toyotas and Nissans.

 

The exception is Mirpur. There’s still plenty of poverty there – but also some stunning mansions. These are owned by families with members in Britain. Even a taxi driver in the UK, sending small ‘remittances’ back to Kashmir, can afford the life of Riley for his family back in Kashmir.

 

The problem is that when you overlay this wealth with the cultural background of British Mirpuris, it establishes the preconditions for the kinds of appalling abuse we’ve heard about in Rotherham, Bradford, Burnley, Luton and even Oxford. Family pressures are still on marrying within the family to preserve wealth – but now with much higher stakes (no one wants to divide up the family mansion). This means pressure on young men only to marry women cousins, and pressure on young women to commit to marriages which many resist and a few find themselves in forced marriages.

 

There’s yet another layer to this: immigration. The originally small numbers of Mirpuri migrants have been able to grow substantially in the UK, partly because these tight, rigidly controlled family structures have enabled the movement of extended family members across borders.

 

The flip side of all this is a powerful, drummed-in message that denigrates non-Kashmiri girls and women - in this case, young white-British girls. Think of the ferocious cultural pressure it takes to make marrying your cousin attractive! So non-Kashmiri girls are trash, uncultured, worthless…etc., ad nauseum.

 

These pressures are exerted directly by the families and reinforced by so-called ‘elders’ – actually self-appointed Imams (always men of course) whose duel role is to maintain community cohesion and represent a united front to outsiders (including police).

 

This is at least part of the backdrop of this frightening abuse. The answer, I’m afraid, is the integration of the fiercely isolationist elements (often dominant ones) in the Kashmiri communities. We should all, however, be careful of generalising too much – there are plenty of young British Pakistanis in these cities who rebel against these strictures, do not abuse women, and who lead exemplary lives. The girls who’ve suffered are the primary victims here – but these liberalising Pakistanis are collateral damage in the backlash represented by certain posters on this thread.

 

Oh, and the gangster stuff? Are you still on that guff?

 

Very interesting viewpoint.

[Batman]

It's been said. Right on point.

 

Authorities in Rotherham have said "lessons must be learned" from this

[hypochondriac]

That's an odd comment. Do you expect to only be mentioned if you mention somebody? What an odd idea. You do realise that your ubiquity on this website means that your brand of stupidity is hard to avoid when reading threads, and thus people might make comment on it? Thicko.

 

Quiet down deppo

[bridge too far]

Here's an article showing that it's not just white girls being abused.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir

 

I know I've said this already, but the whole issue of abuse of children needs to be examined in great depth. Quite rightly, the Rotherham cases have hit the headlines but this has meant the suppression of other stories equally harrowing. Just this week I've read 3 cases priests and teachers abusing tens of young boys each.

 

When on earth is the Home Secretary going to announce the replacement head of enquiry (Butler-Sloss)? Child sexual abuse is endemic in this country and is not confined to Pakistani heritage communities.