RedAndWhite91 Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 This shouldn't be a debate about immigration - This should be a debate about religious fundamentalism. The fact is, is that Islamism and extremist ideals that come with it do present a problem worldwide. You cannot argue that. And it's when you find that there's British kids in Syria and Iraq butchering people that it becomes concerning. If these kids slip through the net and come back and start indoctrinating and brainwashing others here, like what has happened to them, then what? This thread has clearly popped up after the murder of the US journalist - ISIS and the Islamic State have a pretty obvious "convert or die" policy (if you're lucky enough to be given the choice and you're not just killed outright) and what will happen when it reaches these shores? I have no problem whatsoever with controlled immigration, but it is the dangerous values of a minority who wish to force their view upon the majority by any means that concerns me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 attacks are foiled all the time but it is a fact that outside of the IRA, islamic terrorism with the biggest threat according to the Govt majority of the concern then was state sponsored terrorism, much like the Lockerbie bombing, that has obviously morphed since we decided to bomb the shyt out of everything after 9/11 and some of the states have been removed/changed So the the IRA situation improved with negotiation, yet our peace loving country decided to "bomb the shyt" out of the Muslims and things got worse. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 So the the IRA situation improved with negotiation, yet our peace loving country decided to "bomb the shyt" out of the Muslims and things got worse. Hmmm. yeah, they are the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 added to the fact that society has turned a blind eye to the rise of radical islam in this country anyone dare mention islam and this issue would normally have been met with the "racist' tag. like people still do when you try to debate immigration I agree we shouldn't have to tread on egg-shells around the issue but the actions of our government put the muslim community (the only people who can sort it out) in a difficult position. The Muslims I know were calling the US the "Great Evil" long before 9/11, you can't blame them for having sympathy for the extremist's cause even if they don't agree with their methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Considering the USA is a nation built by black slaves under white supremacists, I'd say, er, all of it. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 yeah, they are the same thing Amazed you are actually gainfully employed, "bombing the shyt" out if Muslim countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Amazed you are actually gainfully employed, "bombing the shyt" out if Muslim countries. why are you amazed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaroid Saint Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 I accept your apology. No problem. I am a real man like that. I would hate it if people thought I was some sort of paranoid or obsessive internet warrior with a line in snide putdowns. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 why are you amazed? Amazed you can't even see that no islamic terrorist attacks occurred in England until after we decided to "bomb the shyt" out of Muslim countries. You were chucking few into Libya yourself I believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Amazed you can't even see that no islamic terrorist attacks occurred in England until after we decided to "bomb the shyt" out of Muslim countries. You were chucking few into Libya yourself I believe? have no idea what you are on about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaroid Saint Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 This is a very well written paper that gives an opinion on the history of Islamic radicalism that would be useful to anyone seriously interested in learning more about the subject. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14690760601121648#/doi/full/10.1080/14690760601121648 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 ??? I'm sure you're not contesting that America was built on black slavery. Most of America's black population has, over hundreds of years, had to work its way from the utter desolation of slavery to the position it is in now - still at economic and social disadvantage. They still haven't reached equality with white people, and that inequality is built on racism, regardless of whether there are poor people of other ethnicities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 To repeat, the point Enoch Powell was making is most immigrants do not want to integrate .. I just don't recognise that at all John. Sure, initial immigrants and maybe first or even second generations tend to stick together in the short term, but our City has shown how over time the vast majority integrate/assimilate (even if they also manage to keep their own traditions/religions/history alive). From Huguenots, to Russian Jews, to Poles, to Afro-Carobbeans, to Indians, to Maltese, to Idi Amin's Ugandan refugees, this City has long been a recipient of immigration, with most of those listed above integrating over time in to the fabric of the City. I think there is nothing wrong with discussing the effect and numbers regarding immigration (& emigration), but I think Powell was wrong with regards immigrants not wanting/refusing to integrate. St Mary's was once a hub for the Afro-Caribbean immigrants. Who can forget the West Indian Club in its heyday, the various shebeens, the famous Newtown FC, Ebony Rockers etc? You'll be lucky to find an Afro-Caribbean family down that way nowadays as the second and third generations have integrated and the area is now home to another generation of immigrants (Eastern European, Somali). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 So you think there wasn't trouble because people didn't know about it? Ofcourse there has been trouble, always has and always will be. What I am suggesting is that various factions etc can communicate their ideals, beliefs, commands far more easier now because of modern technology, ultimately making the world a far more threatening place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 No problem. I am a real man like that. I would hate it if people thought I was some sort of paranoid or obsessive internet warrior with a line in snide putdowns. ;-) Thankfully I'm not burdened by the same worries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Hahahaha! This is the best post ever. How dare someone form an opinion based on books and academic lectures! The bloody cheek of it. Coming on here with their education and informed opinion. We don't need their sort round here. Lets form a mob, quickly.....hypo, please lead the mob. Lets see if we can flush out any other of these readers. The post was aimed at Polaroid and was a dig about a previous discussion from earlier in the week. Pipe down buzzin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Which really applies to hypo's assessment of Iraq. He only agrees with me because he has extra information through personal connections to the region, illustrating the importance of detail. Trying to assess the situation through the echo chamber of the Western media is a fruitless exercise. Agree with that TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 20 August, 2014 Author Share Posted 20 August, 2014 I just don't recognise that at all John. In the 2011 census, 850,000 people in the UK were unable to speak English. I'd call that a failure to integrate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 In the 2011 census, 850,000 people in the UK were unable to speak English. I'd call that a failure to integrate... I call that Essex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Britain has worked with Islamic groups of various stripes since the days of Empire. The links were even more important to maintain after WW2 and the loss of Empire, as these groups were often the only means by which Britain could perform certain objectives; quelling communist of Arab nationalist revolutions, propping up preferred puppets, espionage, proxy wars, etc. Such groups are very handy to a fading imperial power that still wants to assert influence in a specific region. Our tolerance of Londonistan was an outrage to other nations, most of the stories on the news are reporting heinous atrocities carried out by Islamic extremists, yet using those groups to exercise our policy is a practice that we continue to this day. Can we rid ourselves of the notion that it was somehow the principles of "lefty tolerance" that brought the rise in Islamic fundamentalism to the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 (edited) GM T I belive that the majority of immigrants do want to integrate or have integrated very successfully .its the minority that don't and probably have other reasons for destabilising the uk . With in that very small minority their are some extreme groups . And they should be closely monitored . But various Human rights get in the way in dealing with such extremists . Maybe with liberalist veiws we do not deal with these in a very robust manner . I do worry about what is happening in Syria and Iraq Who is actual behind IsIS , Iran ? suadi's ? Or another . The fight against Assad seems to be a separate issue from what appeared to be one group of Syrians against Assad . But suddenly ISIS came on the scene . Who is supplying them with Arms One area that worries me despite milions going into training Iraqi forces . They are unable to defend themselves against ISIS Did we pull out to soon ? Equally I worry about afghan when the coalition forces leave in 2015 . There is not a stable democratic system in place but there is a relative calm . It will not be the Taliban the west and afgans will worry about but the extreme ISIS that will become the predominent force over there . As for the alleged British guy speaking about the killing of Mr Foley , well I hope he's gets what's coming to him . Scum like that don't deserve to live let alone live in the uk if he is a uk citizen Edited 20 August, 2014 by Viking Warrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 In the 2011 census, 850,000 people in the UK were unable to speak English. I'd call that a failure to integrate... Are you sure about that? I thought the number who could not speak English was much lower (with more saying not very well). And as I said above, in the short term following bursts of immigration there will be issues of integration and assimilation (including speaking English), but over time these dissipate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 yeah, they are the same thing Why are they different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Good question, to be honest I wouldn't have a clue. The Lee Rigby murder and 7/7 bombings are clearly related to our involvement in the middle east, the perpetrators said so themselves. The troubles in the middle east are clearly a catalyst and spark for some of this behaviour, but when you have millions migrating into this country that identify strongly with a foreign culture, it is hardly a surprise that you are left with the most extreme members carrying out these sorts of incidents. There are going to people that identify more with islamic culture and society than they do with the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 I just don't recognise that at all John. Sure, initial immigrants and maybe first or even second generations tend to stick together in the short term, but our City has shown how over time the vast majority integrate/assimilate (even if they also manage to keep their own traditions/religions/history alive). From Huguenots, to Russian Jews, to Poles, to Afro-Carobbeans, to Indians, to Maltese, to Idi Amin's Ugandan refugees, this City has long been a recipient of immigration, with most of those listed above integrating over time in to the fabric of the City. I think there is nothing wrong with discussing the effect and numbers regarding immigration (& emigration), but I think Powell was wrong with regards immigrants not wanting/refusing to integrate. St Mary's was once a hub for the Afro-Caribbean immigrants. Who can forget the West Indian Club in its heyday, the various shebeens, the famous Newtown FC, Ebony Rockers etc? You'll be lucky to find an Afro-Caribbean family down that way nowadays as the second and third generations have integrated and the area is now home to another generation of immigrants (Eastern European, Somali). Southampton isn't really a great example of significant levels of immigration, the numbers are still very marginal and focused on tiny areas, compared to London, Birmingham, Bradford, Luton etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 The troubles in the middle east are clearly a catalyst and spark for some of this behaviour, but when you have millions migrating into this country that identify strongly with a foreign culture, it is hardly a surprise that you are left with the most extreme members carrying out these sorts of incidents. There are going to people that identify more with islamic culture and society than they do with the UK. A minority of extremist criminals aside, surely it is better to have people who understand the other side within our culture to moderate our behaviour and promote future good relations. And equally, we can moderate the majority of those who come to our country, thereby blurring the lines of any perceived Christian versus Muslim conflict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 20 August, 2014 Author Share Posted 20 August, 2014 (edited) Are you sure about that? I thought the number who could not speak English was much lower (with more saying not very well). The paper I quoted was wrong, it is slightly lower. On census day 27 March 2011, the majority (91.9 per cent; 41.8 million) of the usual resident population aged 16 and over in England and Wales reported English as their main language. The rest of the population who reported a different main language comprised 6.4 per cent (2.9 million) who could speak English ‘Well’ or ‘Very well’, and 1.7 per cent (785,000) who could speak English ‘Not well’ or ‘Not at all’. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/english-language-proficiency-in-the-labour-market/rpt-english-language-proficiency.html Language proficiency has been singled out by both political parties as the main reason integration has not occurred... Edited 20 August, 2014 by Guided Missile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Southampton isn't really a great example of significant levels of immigration, the numbers are still very marginal and focused on tiny areas, compared to London, Birmingham, Bradford, Luton etc. Eh? The Area? Northam? St Marys? Flower Roads? Mandela Way? Shirlski? Portswood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 A minority of extremist criminals aside, surely it is better to have people who understand the other side within our culture to moderate our behaviour and promote future good relations. And equally, we can moderate the majority of those who come to our country, thereby blurring the lines of any perceived Christian versus Muslim conflict Is there any evidence of people arriving in this country and then becoming "moderate"? No. We went to war in Iraq whilst having a large muslim population in this country, so it had no positive impact in "our behaviour" or to "promote future good relations". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Eh? The Area? Northam? St Marys? Flower Roads? Mandela Way? Shirlski? Portswood? Compared to large parts of London, Luton, Bradford, Birmingham. Not really comparable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 There are at least 500 of these nutters from the Uk. Hard to stop them coming and going. Soon, we will have to arrest them with little public evidence. The the human rights lot will be all over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Is there any evidence of people arriving in this country and then becoming "moderate"? No. We went to war in Iraq whilst having a large muslim population in this country, so it had no positive impact in "our behaviour" or to "promote future good relations". Is there any evidence that they don't? I mean proper evidence, not just they don't speak the language. I'm also talking second generation, not current immigrants. We need much more racial mixing for the benefit of society a hundred years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Who is actual behind IsIS , Iran ? suadi's ? Or another . Iran? They are Shia, hated by the Sunni's of ISIS. Perhaps you need to look at the sectarian map of Iraq and ask yourself why ISIS has stopped where it has. Iran, FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 There are at least 500 of these nutters from the Uk. Hard to stop them coming and going. Soon, we will have to arrest them with little public evidence. The the human rights lot will be all over it Because that worked really well with the IRA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Because that worked really well with the IRA What are you on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Is there any evidence that they don't? I mean proper evidence, not just they don't speak the language. I'm also talking second generation, not current immigrants. We need much more racial mixing for the benefit of society a hundred years from now. Ok, so you agreee there isn't any evidence, glad we've got that cleared up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 The paper I quoted was wrong, it is slightly lower. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/english-language-proficiency-in-the-labour-market/rpt-english-language-proficiency.html Language proficiency has been singled out by both political parties as the main reason integration has not occurred... The figure who didn't speak English was just over 100,000 which really doesn't seem that big a number given the numbers who came in to the country recently (with most from non English speaking countries). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Iran? They are Shia, hated by the Sunni's of ISIS. Perhaps you need to look at the sectarian map of Iraq and ask yourself why ISIS has stopped where it has. Iran, FFS. Pre-emptive war results in the unlikeliest of bedfellows. Iran has been ploughing aid into Iraq for years now. Pretty amazing considering their people were sucking down Iraqi deployed chemical weapons 30 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 What are you on about? Internment without trial only served to encourage terrorism http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14458270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Pre-emptive war results in the unlikeliest of bedfellows. Iran has been ploughing aid into Iraq for years now. Pretty amazing considering their people were sucking down Iraqi deployed chemical weapons 30 years ago. Big Shia population in Iraq. Karbala is their holiest place. ISIS move towards that and Iran gets involved. Which petrodollar exporter of hate would benefit most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Ok, so you agreee there isn't any evidence, glad we've got that cleared up. So neither of us has a valid opinion. Game over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Big Shia population in Iraq. Karbala is their holiest place. ISIS move towards that and Iran gets involved. Which petrodollar exporter of hate would benefit most? Ooh, that'd be a shame, considering we've got a reformer in charge of Iran. These opportunities for reconciliation with Iran have a habit of eluding us, unfortunately. Fkn shame, because Iran has a young, surprisingly moderate population. They'd get along with the West just fine if we stopped calling them evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 So neither of us has a valid opinion. Game over It was simply your original assertion I was questioning, unfortunate to see it was based on nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Calls for Iran to join West in fight against Islamic State Iran follows US suit in providing Iraq with military advisors to fight IS militants amid French call to include Tehran in anti-IS coalition http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iran-supports-iraq-kurds-battling-militants-1042731315 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 20 August, 2014 Share Posted 20 August, 2014 Calls for Iran to join West in fight against Islamic State http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iran-supports-iraq-kurds-battling-militants-1042731315 Guess those talks with the US really are going well. Encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 21 August, 2014 Share Posted 21 August, 2014 It was simply your original assertion I was questioning, unfortunate to see it was based on nothing. By questioning my assertion, you yourself are making an assertion. It's amusing that you are unable to understand that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 21 August, 2014 Author Share Posted 21 August, 2014 The figure who didn't speak English was just over 100,000 which really doesn't seem that big a number given the numbers who came in to the country recently (with most from non English speaking countries). Please read the report, or, if you haven't got the time, I quote: 1.7 per cent (785,000) who could speak English ‘Not well’ or ‘Not at all’. Steve, you need to improve your English... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 21 August, 2014 Share Posted 21 August, 2014 Please read the report, or, if you haven't got the time, I quote: Steve, you need to improve your English... Not well isn't not at all is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 21 August, 2014 Share Posted 21 August, 2014 By questioning my assertion, you yourself are making an assertion. It's amusing that you are unable to understand that My assertion was you didn't have any evidence to support your point of view. I was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 21 August, 2014 Author Share Posted 21 August, 2014 Not well isn't not at all is it. Migrants who cannot speak English well or not at all find it impossible to integrate in this country and are more likely to be in receipt of benefits and unable to find work. Both political parties see the command of our language the biggest barrier to the integration of the vast number of migrants Labour allowed into the country. It could also explain why many of the 785,000 and their dependants are alienated from our society and a small percentage of these are radicalised. Let me know if you have trouble understanding the point and I will draw you a picture.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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