The Scottish Independence referendum

[Patrick Bateman]

Not as sorry as I'll be if it's a Yes

 

Will you be thrown out as an EU immigrant?

[Batman]

Just watching the news

although a NO vote will mean Scotland gets more powers and the best of most things

 

The way Salmond is talking, he is acting like he is in the bag. If it is a NO, despite scotland winning in many ways, he would look quite foolish really.

[Wade Garrett]

Do Scottish people find the term f*cking dosh c*nt offensive?

[Wade Garrett]

I am totally against devo-max. I would much rather they voted yes.

 

Devo-max would hurt the rest of the UK.

[OldNick]

I think it is pathetic how our politicians are now looking to be begging for them to stay. I feel the Scottish people have their choice and seeing our representatives basically on their knees begging is cringeworthy. We will have toget used to a socialist nation on our borders

[CB Fry]

Just watching the news

although a NO vote will mean Scotland gets more powers and the best of most things

 

The way Salmond is talking, he is acting like he is in the bag. If it is a NO, despite scotland winning in many ways, he would look quite foolish really.

The No campaign need Salmond to keep acting like that. Give him a Kinnock moment where he is caught celebrating before the event.

[Batman]

The No campaign need Salmond to keep acting like that. Give him a Kinnock moment where he is caught celebrating before the event.

 

a week ago, it seemed it was the NO's to lose. Now it seems the other way

it served Salmond well being the underdog so to speak. Maybe he has peaked too soon.?

 

now that the heavyweights (if you can call them that) have decided to step in and show face.

Reading various bits and bobs. There will be 3x as many NO campaigners on the streets until next weds evening than compared to the NO vote

BBC reporting that Milliband is under huge pressure to win over his Labour deserters.

 

as you said before, fascinating times

 

Most people I see interviewed keep going on about not voting for a tory government.

that is fine. I never wanted a labour government front by anyone, let alone gordon bloody brown

but salmond has done well to turn this into a UKIP style protest vote rather than the huge amount more than this represents

[mcjwills]

If I the event they vote Yes will the British Broadcasting Corporation be turned off in Scotland as they will no longer be British anymore.

[KingdomCome]

Devo-max would hurt the rest of the UK.

 

Would it?

In what way?

 

Re 'f*cking dosh c*****'...I have no idea, I'm gonna guess yes.

[Batman]

If I the event they vote Yes will the British Broadcasting Corporation be turned off in Scotland as they will no longer be British anymore.

 

There will be monumental pressure on who ever is PM/in power to NOT give hardly anything. Huge pressure!

for years, we (in England) have taken the banter, the blame and put up with their constant whinging. But should they vote YES, I can see that tolerance being broken and MASSIVE pressure put on westminster

Ironically, not giving them much is the sort of thing UKIP will say they would do and could gain even more popularity

[Bearsy]

Bet Andy Murray is shitting it! Gonna lose all them £ndorsements if he's not English anymore.

[Goatboy]

Will shortbread and single malt go up?

[CB Fry]

If I the event they vote Yes will the British Broadcasting Corporation be turned off in Scotland as they will no longer be British anymore.

That's one of the many things that I think Salmond has covered off with his catch-all "don't worry, everything will be exactly the same" routine.

[KingdomCome]

Will shortbread and single malt go up?

Maybe if you use lubricant and jiggle it about a bit.

[Bearsy]

Will shortbread and single malt go up?

 

I don't really use them products. I am slightly concerned bout tape tho.

[pap]

I don't really use them products. I am slightly concerned bout tape tho.

Scotch eggs aren't real Scotch eggs unless they've been breathed on by a drunken Glaswegian shouting "you wee eggy bastard"

 

Source: Daily Mirror Book of Facts : Did you know? 2014 edition.

 

Apparently where University Challenge get all of their questions.

[Goatboy]

And little pancakes? I like them. And spicy bonnets.

[Pancake]

And little pancakes? I like them. And spicy bonnets.

Leave my kids alone you dirty fecker!

[Goatboy]

Leave my kids alone you dirty fecker!

 

I like to daub them with maple syrup and fill my mouth. Buttery chin mmmmm.

[mcjwills]

That's one of the many things that I think Salmond has covered off with his catch-all "don't worry, everything will be exactly the same" routine.

That's until us feisty English people that the Scots if they are not part of the Union they can get stuffed, they make their bed they lie in it. UKIP must be loving it because if the Scots vote for independence, the Nationalistic Englishness is going to go through the roof. If the Scots ain't paying don't give it away.

[Viking Warrior]

Bearsy interesting you should mention Murray

The main BBC Radio Scotland sports news was about Murray dropping out if the top ten of world tennis . A good couple of minutes before they said who one the US open

 

Sad but true

[scotty]

If I the event they vote Yes will the British Broadcasting Corporation be turned off in Scotland as they will no longer be British anymore.

 

Hear hear.

[pap]

Considering a few positives of Scottish Independence and wondering how much an actual, meaningful border might benefit places like Cumbria and Northumberland.

 

Would rUK would need some kind of northern military frontier?

 

Somewhat less seriously, how about a large new infrastructure project to keep the Scottish wildlings out? And perhaps a Night's Watch instead of giving G4S money to lock people up?*

 

* Note: that's GoT's Night's Watch, not Babylon 5's Nightwátch. Entirely different things.

Edited 9 September, 2014 by pap

[Patrick Bateman]

Some good questions here, I'm getting more interested as I want them to bugger off now.

 

Questions that need answering;

1. What will happen to British and other EU workers in Scotland?

2. Because I assume Scotland will have to apply to join the EU?

3. They will NOT have the GBP? ; clue in the name, Great British Pound.

4. They can NOT have the BBC? ; clue in the name, British Broadcasting Corporation paid for by Brits. They can have the self-funded world service though, muhahaha.

[Batman]

Some good questions here, I'm getting more interested as I want them to bugger off now.

 

Questions that need answering;

1. What will happen to British and other EU workers in Scotland?

2. Because I assume Scotland will have to apply to join the EU?

3. They will NOT have the GBP? ; clue in the name, Great British Pound.

4. They can NOT have the BBC? ; clue in the name, British Broadcasting Corporation paid for by Brits. They can have the self-funded world service though, muhahaha.

the £ is theirs also apparently,

As is the BBC

basically, if they go it alone, they want to keep many things British

 

even the Bank of England has come out now and said they will not be getting the £. tragically, so many are believing King Alex in thinking they will

[scotty]

the £ is theirs also apparently,

As is the BBC

basically, if they go it alone, they want to keep many things British

 

even the Bank of England has come out now and said they will not be getting the £. tragically, so many are believing King Alex in thinking they will

 

Salmond is studiously avoiding any mention of his original position, which was an absolute assertion that an independent scotland would ditch the pound and adopt the euro. He stated that live on the today programme, in terms that allowed for no misunderstanding whatsoever.

 

Doesn't seem quite so keen now, does he.

[Batman]

Salmond is studiously avoiding any mention of his original position, which was an absolute assertion that an independent scotland would ditch the pound and adopt the euro. He stated that live on the today programme, in terms that allowed for no misunderstanding whatsoever.

 

Doesn't seem quite so keen now, does he.

yep, he said the £ was a weight hanging around Scotland's neck

[mcjwills]

Of course we could help our own unemployment by rebuilding Hadrians Wall to an acceptable height, to stop the Scottish returning back to England when it all goes wrong under King Salmond ?

[saintbletch]

Glasgow always votes Labour. Should Glasgow be independent because we're stuck with an SNP government?

I can see what you are saying, but that's the effect of representative democracy. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly no reason to start dissecting the country into bits that happen to vote the same way.

 

It's a good question. Where do we draw the line? Freedom for Tooting?

 

It's good to hear your views as an "interloper", and I'm sure the divisions you mention between the various cities and regions of Scotland are real, but they're surely not as "real" as those between Scotland the separate country and the rest of the world. Perhaps as a local you'll tell me they are?

 

Given the historic claims to separate nationhood, fierce and justifiable national pride, a long-held chip on the shoulder at being annexed and the theft of several goalposts, it's not surprising that there is a long-held perception of the Scots and the English as being "different" - as seen from both sides of the border.

 

Given those perceptions and circumstances, do we really expect those left leaning Scots to look at the otherwise arbitrary grouping of Scottish Westminster seats in the north of the United Kingdom and simply mumble about their tough luck when the south turns Blue?

 

I think I'd become fed up that brand of representative democracy after a while. So instead of seeing themselves as part of the UK as a whole, and putting up with governments that more often than not don't reflect their views, I'm not surprised that many have chosen to focus on points north of that wiggly line from coast to coast, and have started hatching plans.

 

A majority of the Scottish electorate presumably chose to put the SNP into power and as the SNP's platform was built on devolution, I think they can reasonably argue that a "Yes" vote would be a perfect "reason to start dissecting the country into bits that happen to vote the same way".

 

I guess representative democracy cuts both ways?

 

I find the assertion that 8& of the population should have some sort of special consideration on deciding the political complexion of the Government to be truly f**king hillarious.

 

F**k Off Scotland, we know the whinging and blaming the English wont stop either way....

 

Yeah, I'll re-read it alpine_saint, because that's not what I took away from the piece.

 

I think the point was that rather than wanting some special consideration, they would prefer that they no longer had any control over the complexion of the Westminster government at all.

 

Instead, as is presumably obvious, they want independence.

 

*"They" being the authors of The Wee Blue Book.

[Batman]

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome

[egreog]

Odds are they will vote NO but its getting mighty close. If they opt for "divorce" then I trust rUK will not adopt a soft bargaining position and make it easy for them. No pound, no NATO, no EU and business opportunities for English whisky to flourish, English haggis and other similar enterprises.

[CB Fry]

"We desperately want you to stay" sayeth the PM apparently in the Daily Mail in the morning.

 

Interesting choice of words. Dear me, they have ballsed this right up.

[Patrick Bateman]

"We desperately want you to stay" sayeth the PM apparently in the Daily Mail in the morning.

 

Interesting choice of words. Dear me, they have ballsed this right up.

 

I was just sick in my mouth. That's horrendous.

[SW5 SAINT]

It's a good question. Where do we draw the line? Freedom for Tooting?

 

 

A majority of the Scottish electorate presumably chose to put the SNP into power and as the SNP's platform was built on devolution, I think they can reasonably argue that a "Yes" vote would be a perfect "reason to start dissecting the country into bits that happen to vote the same way".

 

I guess representative democracy cuts both ways?

 

I don't think a majority of the Scots did vote for the SNP at the last election, Labour and Lib Dem voters well out numbered the SNP. The just have the most seats. As that's the case I just cannot understand why they were even offered a referendum!

[Patrick Bateman]

What happens to Corby then?

 

Do the Scots get an outlying town that we have to b*tch and moan belongs to Britain, but they'll station a few drunk toothless guards at to stop entry?

[Viking Warrior]

Aberdeen is odds on favourite to be the new Corby in a few decades .

 

Salmond wants to retain the queen but not the Union Jack .

If ever there was a plastic politician it's salmond .

[Batman]

I was just sick in my mouth. That's horrendous.

 

it is pretty bad.

I think he has no choice but get down on his knees. He is hardly popular up there lol

 

interestingly, more and more articles are coming up tearing apart Salmond's promises

 

some Nobel prize winning economists has shown up the SNP in a fairly big way (not that it is hard)

A Yes vote will automatically mean leaving the EU

Wanting to keep the £ is not a viable option and points to the smaller EU nations with the Euro

promising tax cuts for business does not add up either. more so when business is scotland are not highly taxed anyway

Oil and gad money is already on the decline

Yet the SNP are promising massive spending and more free things for everyone

to keep their promises, they will have to 'borrow' huge sums of money and go down the road that they seem to want to divorce themselves from

They aim to have large immigration numbers, to the size of the city of Dundee every 6 years...which is just a mad concept given that most of Europe can freely move to scotland now (and they have not) will mean most of the numbers required will be largely unskilled workers from eastern EU/Africa

 

pretty strong words really

 

The Boss of the KingFisher group that owns B&Q and others, has stated that prices will go up with a yes vote in almost everything (as they do not own their own currency) and that will always be passed to the customer. Yet they do not see it.

 

 

Looks like the Political machine of westminster has started....pretty interesting stuff

[scotty]

yep, he said the £ was a weight hanging around Scotland's neck

 

You're right, that is exactly what he said in that interview (amongst other things.) I remember him cackling as he said it, he also said that the "ditch sterling and go into the euro" policy would be the first thing he would enact if/when scotland gained independence.

[buctootim]

Independent Scottish economics would be a car crash, at least in the short/ medium term. Under the Barnett formula they get 19% more public spending than England, even though their GDP per head is only 96% of Englands. Even if you count in all the oil and gas money they're looking at a budget deficit from day 1.

[Lord Duckhunter]

They CAN keep the £ , any country can use it. The issue isn't whether they can use the £ the issue is whether it is a viable to use it without fiscal union . And without the BoE acting as lender of last resort.

[KingdomCome]

I'm sure the divisions you mention between the various cities and regions of Scotland are real, but they're surely not as "real" as those between Scotland the separate country and the rest of the world. Perhaps as a local you'll tell me they are?

 

The divisions between east and west or between central belt and highlands are as real as the division between Scots and English. Similar to the north south divide in England, it's as real as the Scotland England divide. There may not be the same level of animosity, but it exists.

 

I'm not surprised that many have chosen to focus on points north of that wiggly line from coast to coast, and have started hatching plans.

 

Interesting choice of words that highlight the more apparent than real nature of the difference in values between England and Scotland. Are the values of someone living in Carlisle really that different to someone living in Gretna?

 

A majority of the Scottish electorate presumably chose to put the SNP into power and as the SNP's platform was built on devolution, I think they can reasonably argue that a "Yes" vote would be a perfect "reason to start dissecting the country into bits that happen to vote the same way".

 

As has been said, a majority of Scots didn't vote SNP. Additionally the reasons for voting SNP were more complex than wanting independence. Aside from the independence issue, SNP are reasonably competent.

 

Of course a "Yes" vote would be reason enough to carve up the union. The nature of a union is that the members want to be in it. But I didn't say it wasn't. I said the fact that people vote for different political parties isn't reason enough.

[pap]

Interesting piece here.

 

Scotland's referendum is Britain's reinvention.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/scotland-referendum-britain-independence-vote

 

There are varying degrees of idealism, self delusion and realism about the chances of Edinburgh delivering on this promised land, but the point is that increasing numbers think it’s worth a try. You can hear the echoes of Thomas Carlyle in the stirring rhetoric on the evils of materialism and neoliberalism. The dubious track record of Alex Salmond on this front is dismissed as irrelevant; post independence, new political parties will form in this brave new world.

 

 

There are two implications of this. Regardless of the referendum outcome, the campaign has proved a catastrophic failure for Labour. It is no longer an effective vehicle for democracy and social justice in one of its oldest heartlands. Its vote has collapsed. The word most commonly used in conjunction with Labour is ‘corrupt’.

 

 

A shrill hysteria has now crept into London-based government and media responses. Words such as foreign and amputation are being thrown about alongside talk of passports and borders. Britain is once again hailed as broken (I blame alliteration). But as the rubble of nationalism is cleared away, there is a second implication as another word is being reinvented: Britishness.

[Patrick Bateman]

Interesting piece here.

 

Scotland's referendum is Britain's reinvention.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/scotland-referendum-britain-independence-vote

 

Sorry, but you keep posting up these Guardian articles, but they are all the most boring, droaning reads ever. "Trying too hard to be too clever", is certainly a phrase that applies to most of their, very long and very boring articles.

[pap]

Sorry, but you keep posting up these Guardian articles, but they are all the most boring, droaning reads ever. "Trying too hard to be too clever", is certainly a phrase that applies to most of their, very long and very boring articles.

 

They're there to stimulate debate.

 

Have you heard of Twitter?

[Patrick Bateman]

They're there to stimulate debate.

 

Have you heard of Twitter?

 

They're just boring though, in my opinion.

 

And yes, you follow me.

[pap]

They're just boring though, in my opinion.

 

Are they more or less boring than a man decrying them as boring?

 

And yes, you follow me.

 

Touché!

 

[saintbletch]

The divisions between east and west or between central belt and highlands are as real as the division between Scots and English. Similar to the north south divide in England, it's as real as the Scotland England divide. There may not be the same level of animosity, but it exists.

 

Interesting choice of words that highlight the more apparent than real nature of the difference in values between England and Scotland. Are the values of someone living in Carlisle really that different to someone living in Gretna?

 

A good question, and you're right that the values of those people are likely to be similar. Or at least they're not likely to be wildly different simply because they are one side of an arbitrary line and not the other. However, I'm suggesting that this palpably "real" difference between the people of England and Scotland lies less in their values and more in their sense of identity.

 

Does the Carlisle resident cheer if he sees the result "Scotland 1 - 0 England"? Does she routinely cite with pride the inventors of tarmac, the TV, the telephone or penicillin? Or does the sound of Flower of Scotland provide a shiver every time they hear it?

 

So if that sense of identity is as "real" as I think it is, such that the arbitrary wiggly line means something to them, then I'm not surprised that residents of Scotland go on to look at the results of Westminster elections - not as the UK as a whole, but instead by focussing on all the non-blue areas of "their" country. They must then start to feel slightly disenfranchised. Not disenfranchised from the right to vote, but perhaps from the right to expect representation for "their" country's views.

 

The stats from The Wee Blue Book surprised and staggered me. I'm assuming they're true, but in 38 of the last 68 years the Scots have been governed by a party "they" didn't vote for.

 

I appreciate that if one doesn't see Scotland as a separate voting constituent of the UK - because it isn't, then this stat is meaningless. Afterall it was a UK vote and under those rules we don't separate out and give any special credence to the opinions of the individual countries of the Union. But surely even left-of-centre, pro-unionists must also start to question their influence? I don't know that, I'm asking the question. Perhaps you know some and can comment? If they do and have, then I can well see why they might desert the Labour Party for the SNP to get the influence they feel they need - perhaps planning to come back to Labour in an independent Scotland one day.

 

*I'm aware that I'm generalising here to illustrate my points, and as we know it's always wrong to generalise!

 

As has been said, a majority of Scots didn't vote SNP. Additionally the reasons for voting SNP were more complex than wanting independence. Aside from the independence issue, SNP are reasonably competent.

 

Of course a "Yes" vote would be reason enough to carve up the union. The nature of a union is that the members want to be in it. But I didn't say it wasn't. I said the fact that people vote for different political parties isn't reason enough.

 

Yes that was clumsy. I guess what I meant was that they were elected to govern in a representatively democratic process.

 

I accept that people may have voted for the SNP for reasons other than independence. The fact that they now sit on the cusp of getting exactly what they don't want, but played a role in facilitating, surely shows that representative democracy ain't infallible.

 

Let's hope thy will be done.

[alpine_saint]

Aberdeen is odds on favourite to be the new Corby in a few decades .

 

Salmond wants to retain the queen but not the Union Jack .

If ever there was a plastic politician it's salmond .

 

You think thats bad ? What about his latest effort, evoking memories of Apartheid ?

[saintbletch]

They're there to stimulate debate.

 

Have you heard of Twitter?

 

I agree. What you should do pap is take the interesting part out of the article and post it on here.

 

Then you should link to the full article for further reading if people want to get more detail.

[ecuk268]

"We desperately want you to stay" sayeth the PM apparently in the Daily Mail in the morning.

 

Interesting choice of words. Dear me, they have ballsed this right up.

 

As the Tories are pretty much universally hated in Scotland, probably not a good idea for Cameron to start lecturing them.