The Scottish Independence referendum

[Lord Duckhunter]

Although there are fixed term parliaments , the Tory leader ( which I doubt will be Cameron) will have to be able to command a majority .I would imagine the lib/dumbs will pull out of any formal coalition and just prop up a minority government on a supply and confidence basis limping on to May '15 , when the fun really begins.

[View From The Top]

I wonder if the PM would face a vote of no confidence if the YES vote wins?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Although there are fixed term parliaments , the Tory leader ( which I doubt will be Cameron) will have to be able to command a majority .I would imagine the lib/dumbs will pull out of any formal coalition and just prop up a minority government on a supply and confidence basis limping on to May '15 , when the fun really begins.

 

I thought the Lib Dems had already effectively left the coalition?

[CB Fry]

Although there are fixed term parliaments , the Tory leader ( which I doubt will be Cameron) will have to be able to command a majority .I would imagine the lib/dumbs will pull out of any formal coalition and just prop up a minority government on a supply and confidence basis limping on to May '15 , when the fun really begins.

 

It's not the Lib Dems who will bring Cameron down on this issue - they will respect the result and the process etc etc etc - it's the Tory party.

 

Knives Out, as the happening pop group Radiohead might say.

 

Edit: sorry I see you have already assumed a Cameron exit. Could be an early poll if it happens quickly. It won't be allowed to limp along, I'd say.

Edited 8 September, 2014 by CB Fry

[KingdomCome]

Cameron could have put devo max on the table back then, if he'd been stupid enough to believe that the SNP vote was all about nationalism. It isn't. The SNP happens to offer a load of free stuff that the rest of the country doesn't get. People like free stuff, particularly if it means that their offspring don't become a plaything of bankers if they want to go to University.

 

The very canny thing about the free stuff move is that it also alienates the rest of the country. People think the Scots are taking the píss, and want them gone. Blind as well as mad there. The irony is that it's the SNP that's trying to conserve British traditions like the NHS and free higher education. Those Conservatives just don't do what they say on the tin.

 

I'm certainly not suggesting that the overwhelming SNP victory was about wanting independence. Clearly it isn't otherwise the polls would be well over to the yes side. What I am saying is that if an SNP government (who's over-riding policy is for independence) request the right to hold a referendum then a Tory Westminster is on a hiding to nothing. Say no and alienate more Scots. Say yes and get blamed for gambling the union.

Offering devo max isn't an answer to a yes or no question...Can we hold a referendum? It can be easily spun into a "no" for an anti-tory public.

[KingdomCome]

It's hard not to blame Cameron. In every debate on this I have watched the Scotts seem more interested in getting away from a Tory government than the UK itself.

Some truth in this but it matters not a jot who is leader of the party or indeed what their policy is. It's solely due to the fact that Westminster is tinged blue.

[Batman]

Some truth in this but it matters not a jot who is leader of the party or indeed what their policy is. It's solely due to the fact that Westminster is tinged blue.

 

also, in years gone by, there was usually a Scottish political heavy-weight in and around government. even labour is very Englsih these days

[pap]

also, in years gone by, there was usually a Scottish political heavy-weight in and around government. even labour is very Englsih these days

 

Labour's very English, very middle-class and very chosen at the moment.

 

The latest announcements on selection policy are encouraging; the party realises that it just isn't on for millions to be spent on candidate selection - maybe we'll see long term change.

 

In the meantime, expect more golden children parachuted into plush positions in favour of local candidates.

[pap]

This is bloomin' rich. Gordon Brown now leading the charge. Will be seen as the man who saved the Union if Scotland votes No on his proposed package.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-gordon-brown-tax-welfare-powers-timetable-labour

 

And to think; many of us, myself included, had this down as a win-win for the Conservatives. Surely lose-lose now?

[aintforever]

I wonder if a YES vote will spark an early General Election in the rest of the UK?

Cameron will surely be numbered, milliband will probably wont have a chance without the scottish vote and clegg is done either way

 

that will leave Nigel and Boris to fill the void

 

Could end up with Scotland in the EU and the rest of the UK out.

[pap]

I wonder if a YES vote will spark an early General Election in the rest of the UK?

Cameron will surely be numbered, milliband will probably wont have a chance without the scottish vote and clegg is done either way

 

that will leave Nigel and Boris to fill the void

 

Holy fúcking shít, Batman. Think you might have cracked the case.

 

Re: bletch's cui bono conspiracy theory question. It was BoJo, bletch! It was BoJo all along!

 

Can we now start entertaining my "Boris is a Boys From Brazil style Aryan clone" theory?

[hypochondriac]

This is bloomin' rich. Gordon Brown now leading the charge. Will be seen as the man who saved the Union if Scotland votes No on his proposed package.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-gordon-brown-tax-welfare-powers-timetable-labour

 

And to think; many of us, myself included, had this down as a win-win for the Conservatives. Surely lose-lose now?

 

No he won't. He will be seen as an ineffective embarrassment and one of the worst chancellors in history like he was before.

[Bearsy]

i still think England can win this. I know it's an away game but we deffo have more class

[eurosaint]

Makes me laugh that some (mainly Pap!) are blaming Cameron and his party for the surge in SNP popularity !

The Tories do not exist in Scotland and have not been a force for many years, Labour have bent over backwards to preserve votes by handing out benefits, concessions and subsidies across the board which has been counter productive in the extreme ! The more that has been given (the Scottish Parliament being the prime example), the more that is demanded !

Scotland is a hotbed of socialism and right now there is a race to the bottom between Labour and the SNP as to who can offer the biggest handouts ! I smile when I watch debates about the 'bedroom tax', child poverty etc.. because these are very short term political issues and bear little relevance to the wider (and final !) prospect of total separation !

The fact is that neither SNP nor Labour could run a sweetie shop and economic ruin is a distinct possibility !

Whatever the result, and I pray that the vote is 'NO', IMHO it has little or nothing to do with David Cameron and the Conservative party !

 

Ps. PAP, nothing personal to you but I feel that your anti Tory agenda is colouring your viewpoint somewhat on this subject !

[SuperMikey]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bearsy]

????????????????????

[aintforever]

Makes me laugh that some (mainly Pap!) are blaming Cameron and his party for the surge in SNP popularity !

The Tories do not exist in Scotland and have not been a force for many years, Labour have bent over backwards to preserve votes by handing out benefits, concessions and subsidies across the board which has been counter productive in the extreme ! The more that has been given (the Scottish Parliament being the prime example), the more that is demanded !

Scotland is a hotbed of socialism and right now there is a race to the bottom between Labour and the SNP as to who can offer the biggest handouts ! I smile when I watch debates about the 'bedroom tax', child poverty etc.. because these are very short term political issues and bear little relevance to the wider (and final !) prospect of total separation !

The fact is that neither SNP nor Labour could run a sweetie shop and economic ruin is a distinct possibility !

Whatever the result, and I pray that the vote is 'NO', IMHO it has little or nothing to do with David Cameron and the Conservative party !

 

Ps. PAP, nothing personal to you but I feel that your anti Tory agenda is colouring your viewpoint somewhat on this subject !

 

Oh come on, the disparity between Tory policies and those of the Scottish people is an obvious reason why independence is popular.

[pap]

Makes me laugh that some (mainly Pap!) are blaming Cameron and his party for the surge in SNP popularity !

The Tories do not exist in Scotland and have not been a force for many years, Labour have bent over backwards to preserve votes by handing out benefits, concessions and subsidies across the board which has been counter productive in the extreme ! The more that has been given (the Scottish Parliament being the prime example), the more that is demanded !

Scotland is a hotbed of socialism and right now there is a race to the bottom between Labour and the SNP as to who can offer the biggest handouts ! I smile when I watch debates about the 'bedroom tax', child poverty etc.. because these are very short term political issues and bear little relevance to the wider (and final !) prospect of total separation !

The fact is that neither SNP nor Labour could run a sweetie shop and economic ruin is a distinct possibility !

Whatever the result, and I pray that the vote is 'NO', IMHO it has little or nothing to do with David Cameron and the Conservative party !

 

Ps. PAP, nothing personal to you but I feel that your anti Tory agenda is colouring your viewpoint somewhat on this subject !

 

If you've a specific problem with one of my points about the Tories, why not try addressing it?

 

Benefit of hindsight definitely, but this is looking like a barmy decision for them in the here and now. Cameron gambled on a yes-no vote, when the SNP were after Devo Max. He wanted to show strength, be the PM that saved the Union, and is now looking utterly powerless to do anything about it, relying on the proxies of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling to try and hold things together. The Better Together campaign has been a bloody disaster from first to last, not least because those wry Scots bastards are experts at taking the píss. They tried to cow the Scottish electorate, make 'em feel unempowered, and it's backfired. The "F**k Yis" vote is rising, and I don't blame them.

 

Anti-Tory agenda? Yeah, possibly - but they're all shít. Do you think my little rant on Labour selection policy is "on message"?

[scotty]

No he won't. He will be seen as an ineffective embarrassment and one of the worst chancellors in history like he was before.

 

Whatever else you say about Gordon Brown, at least he kept us out of the euro. Blair would have dragged us into it without Brown to keep him in check.

[Bearsy]

Come on England! Looking quite good at mo!

[Bearsy]

Hmm hearing it's a bit more in the balance now! Still hopeful England can nick it tho, would be a massive win on S-Land's home turf!

[Bearsy]

Need a win here a defeat could ultimately put us out of the Euro

[SaintRobbie]

It's not the Lib Dems who will bring Cameron down on this issue - they will respect the result and the process etc etc etc - it's the Tory party.

 

Knives Out, as the happening pop group Radiohead might say.

 

Edit: sorry I see you have already assumed a Cameron exit. Could be an early poll if it happens quickly. It won't be allowed to limp along, I'd say.

 

Cameron has to resign and will be made to by the Conservatives, they will not want to associate themselves with the loss of the Union and will turn on Cameron as a scape goat. With Labour having 20 odd seats ripped away they are unlikely to compete at the next election - unless Cameron is left in.

 

Tories will rebrand themselves as the party of England. Seems ironic that the political party that has resurrected UK nationalism in order to try and win the next election with a cheap anti-EU shot will have sewn a seed of nationalism in Scotland that may destroy our nation.

 

What frustrates me is that Cameron didn't have to do this. Like the EU referendum he is a risk taker, where no risk is required. Very foolish. Very foolish.

 

Worrying.

[CB Fry]

Cameron has to resign and will be made to by the Conservatives, they will not want to associate themselves with the loss of the Union and will turn on Cameron as a scape goat. With Labour having 20 odd seats ripped away they are unlikely to compete at the next election - unless Cameron is left in.

 

Tories will rebrand themselves as the party of England. Seems ironic that the political party that has resurrected UK nationalism in order to try and win the next election with a cheap anti-EU shot will have sewn a seed of nationalism in Scotland that may destroy our nation.

 

What frustrates me is that Cameron didn't have to do this. Like the EU referendum he is a risk taker, where no risk is required. Very foolish. Very foolish.

 

Worrying.

At the point of decision I can see why he decided on forcing Salmond into the apparent corner of a straight Yes/No and no devo max third way. That way would have been a dull campaign for sure but Cameron would still be the loser, just earlier. He would have slaughtered for a cheap concession Would have kept the union though. So yes/no was the right call.

 

It's the campaign that they have totally ballsed up. When Alistair Darling is the best you have then you're in trouble - he's a decent politian, more likeable than some but nowhere near dynamic enough to sell the union. It's not easy, because the other team have a simpler articulation of hopes and dreams and fluffy futures to reel off, but it was possible to do a better job than they have.

[eurosaint]

Oh come on, the disparity between Tory policies and those of the Scottish people is an obvious reason why independence is popular.

 

Kind of proves my point about 'short term' thinking, we had 13 years of labour government but all of a sudden it's all the fault of the Tories !

Surely total and irrevocable separation after 300 years should be about more than just the dislike of a passing government (which just happens to be a coalition at the moment!).

[eurosaint]

If you've a specific problem with one of my points about the Tories, why not try addressing it?

G

Benefit of hindsight definitely, but this is looking like a barmy decision for them in the here and now. Cameron gambled on a yes-no vote, when the SNP were after Devo Max. He wanted to show strength, be the PM that saved the Union, and is now looking utterly powerless to do anything about it, relying on the proxies of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling to try and hold things together. The Better Together campaign has been a bloody disaster from first to last, not least because those wry Scots bastards are experts at taking the píss. They tried to cow the Scottish electorate, make 'em feel unempowered, and it's backfired. The "F**k Yis" vote is rising, and I don't blame them.

 

Anti-Tory agenda? Yeah, possibly - but they're all shít. Do you think my little rant on Labour selection policy is "on message"?

I wouldn't know where to start with your rants v the Tories so I won't even try !

Cameron had no choice about the referendum once the SNP achieved a majority in the Scottish Parliament and IMO this was due to the incompetence of the Labour Party in Scotland, they displayed their weakness with concessions which fell nicely into the lap of the nationalists !

Anyway Pap, as I said it's not personal but if you don't have an anti Tory agenda then I am a Skate living at the bottom of the sea :)

[pap]

I wouldn't know where to start with your rants v the Tories so I won't even try !

Cameron had no choice about the referendum once the SNP achieved a majority in the Scottish Parliament and IMO this was due to the incompetence of the Labour Party in Scotland, they displayed their weakness with concessions which fell nicely into the lap of the nationalists !

Anyway Pap, as I said it's not personal but if you don't have an anti Tory agenda then I am a Skate living at the bottom of the sea :)

Yes it's a sad experience that so many right wingers are unable to argue a single position.

 

My contention is that this lot are a bandit government that are intent on selling the few remaining pieces of public property that are not nailed down, turning the country into a permanent earner for their rich friends, against their stated pre election aims.

[eurosaint]

Yes it's a sad experience that so many right wingers are unable to argue a single position.

 

My contention is that this lot are a bandit government that are intent on selling the few remaining pieces of public property that are not nailed down, turning the country into a permanent earner for their rich friends, against their stated pre election aims.

As opposed to poor guys like Blair, Mandelson and Brown who ennobled the poor bankers like Fred Goodwin and brought the country to it's knees !

Politics of envy I'm afraid with a large dose of hypocrisy thrown in, anyway that's for another day, this thread is about the independence referendum and I live in the desperate hope of a NO vote !

[pap]

As opposed to poor guys like Blair, Mandelson and Brown who ennobled the poor bankers like Fred Goodwin and brought the country to it's knees !

Politics of envy I'm afraid with a large dose of hypocrisy thrown in, anyway that's for another day, this thread is about the independence referendum and I live in the desperate hope of a NO vote !

Don't give a f##k about whataboutery. New Labour were a f##king shambles. What's your point?

[eurosaint]

Don't give a f##k about whataboutery. New Labour were a f##king shambles. What's your point?

 

Strange reply, I guess that you have an anti New Labour agenda as well as an anti Tory one

Balanced view I suppose but you really have lost me now so I give up !

[View From The Top]

Don't give a f##k about whataboutery. New Labour were a f##king shambles. What's your point?

 

Blinkered blue who thinks everything tory is golden, or as they are known around here, cuunts.

[eurosaint]

Blinkered blue who thinks everything tory is golden, or as they are known around here, cuunts.

 

Bloody hell, criticism of the Labour Party in Scotland automatically puts me down as a 'right winger' and a 'blinkered blue' !

Nice to be involved in a civilised debate on democracy !

[pap]

Strange reply, I guess that you have an anti New Labour agenda as well as an anti Tory one

Balanced view I suppose but you really have lost me now so I give up !

 

I prefer to think of it as an anti-shít politician agenda. It's quite far reaching; you may find it a little more eclectic than the "football team" of political support that you seem to be going in for.

 

I'm happy to praise or find fault irrespective of political colour. Blair should be up on war crimes charges. Cameron was extremely dignified when handling the Hillsborough reports.

 

I know that skews the results of your oil and water political experiment. As it should; Labour lost a huge amount of support over its policies in office, particularly Iraq. The Conservatives have been wracked on the European issue for decades. Both parties represent broad churches, the leadership rarely represents the membership and I feel that both of them have done tremendous harm in recent office.

 

This entire justification is superfluous, btw. I only mention it because another forum soul, our píss-soaked crusader Batman, has also done the bias thing. It's probably that time.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Anybody who thinks that Cameron could have got away with not endorsing a vote is clearly deluded. Once the Nats won a majority a vote was inevitable , no matter which party was in government .

 

Cameron must take some of the blame for a wishy washy pigs ear of a campaign, but then again he's the worst sort of Tory , a soaking wet modern day Ted Heath. Labour and the lib/dumbs have been woeful , where is John Reid , Charlie Kennedy , why have the no campaign concentrated on trying to frighten people and now trying to bribe them. I so hope the clowns in Westminster run the eu referendum the same way when that comes .

 

If I was running the no campaign I'd send Michael Gove ( a sweaty i believe ) up there everyday, send Boris as he's bound to foul it up, send Cleggy up to Edinburgh to talk to students , roger Helmer would play a role and id get The duke of Edinburugh to attend a few hustings. As a " I hope they bugger off " non voter , I guess my " plan" is a bit far fetched , but we've had the next beat thing , a load of elitest plums and champagne socialists lecturing and trying to bully the voters . If anything sums up the political pygmies that run Westminster it's this No campaign. The funny thing is the thing that's going to defeat the yes people is the very thing they hate the most. The Tories . Poll after poll shows the 17% of Tory voters in Scotland soiled in their support, where as labour are struggling to hold up their vote.

[pap]

Charlie Brooker, suitably excellent.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-david-cameron-no-campaign-windows-8

[SuperMikey]

Charlie Brooker, suitably excellent.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/scottish-independence-david-cameron-no-campaign-windows-8

 

I think I might actually love Charlie Brooker, he's such a brilliant writer. Always funny to read his column. Black Mirror was f*cking good as well.

 

Cameron can’t help here, of course. In Scotland, David Cameron is less popular than Windows 8. He’s the physical embodiment of everything a fair percentage of Scottish people hate: a ruddy-faced old Etonian walking around like he just inherited the place, sporting a permanently shiny chin as though he’s just enjoyed a buttery crumpet in front of the cricket. Worse still, he’s a lizard. An actual lizard. Send him to Scotland to make a speech and the moment a crowd member shouts “boo!” or hurls an egg, Cameron will “display” by raising the hyoid bone of his throat and enlarging his dewlap in a bid to intimidate potential predators. And that won’t play well on Scotland Tonight.

 

[Viking Warrior]

Eurosaint

 

I think pap must be a fan of or a relative of salmond and spurgeon . They are quick to blame the Tories for everything . Even when labour say something up here , they are accused of being in bed with the Tories .

The SNP have been very clever with their strategy . Using the blame the tory's slogan to get people to vote yes .

I walked I in Kirkwall broad street today and the yes supporters up here , just go on about the Tories ruining Scotland . And think salmond us the new messiah . They are so convinced that Scotland will be one if the richest countries in the world and have a never ending supply of oil in Scotland .

They should talk to the oil people and the will hear a different story . There has been a major down turn in oil transfer and storage at flotta . Thus affecting jobs and oil revenues coming to Orkney .

But I need not worry . There is plenty of oil for several generations to come according to King Salmond .

 

Deluded *****s

[Viking Warrior]

The good news for England if the krankies get their way is the fact there will be 59 less MPs at Westminster . That's how many Scottish MPs will be made redundant

[Lord Duckhunter]

Eurosaint

 

I think pap must be a fan of or a relative of salmond and spurgeon . They are quick to blame the Tories for everything . Even when labour say something up here , they are accused of being in bed with the Tories .

The SNP have been very clever with their strategy . Using the blame the tory's slogan to get people to vote yes .

I walked I in Kirkwall broad street today and the yes supporters up here , just go on about the Tories ruining Scotland . And think salmond us the new messiah . They are so convinced that Scotland will be one if the richest countries in the world and have a never ending supply of oil in Scotland .

They should talk to the oil people and the will hear a different story . There has been a major down turn in oil transfer and storage at flotta . Thus affecting jobs and oil revenues coming to Orkney .

But I need not worry . There is plenty of oil for several generations to come according to King Salmond .

 

Deluded *****s

 

The line that the Tories have no mandate in Scotland is clearly nonsense. At the last election the SNP polled 19.9% of the vote and the Tory party 16.7% . Not a great deal of difference , but one that's exaggerated by the FPTP system. In 2005 under Michael Howard the Tories were within 2 % points of the SNP. There must be vast areas of the country that don't vote SNP , but are they crying into their Buckfast about getting a "government they didn't vote for "

 

It's also complete nonsense to try and portray it as a Tory / Scotland thing based on recent election performance , it wasn't until 17 years ago that the Nats polled more votes than the Tories in Scotland . Whose to say what the results will be in 17 years time. If they're going to throw hundreds of years of Union away because they don't like the modern Tory party , they deserve everything Greek that's coming to them. I just hope Westminster tells them to fck off when they come round shaking their buckets when it goes tits up

Edited 9 September, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[eurosaint]

I prefer to think of it as an anti-shít politician agenda. It's quite far reaching; you may find it a little more eclectic than the "football team" of political support that you seem to be going in for.

 

I'm happy to praise or find fault irrespective of political colour. Blair should be up on war crimes charges. Cameron was extremely dignified when handling the Hillsborough reports.

 

I know that skews the results of your oil and water political experiment. As it should; Labour lost a huge amount of support over its policies in office, particularly Iraq. The Conservatives have been wracked on the European issue for decades. Both parties represent broad churches, the leadership rarely represents the membership and I feel that both of them have done tremendous harm in recent office.

 

This entire justification is superfluous, btw. I only mention it because another forum soul, our píss-soaked crusader Batman, has also done the bias thing. It's probably that time.

 

A measured reply, thank you. My original point was only that Cameron was forced to concede to a referendum because SNP held a majority in the Scottish parliament and that in my opinion they reached this point due to Labour's policy of appeasement over a number of years !

Sadly I cannot take further part in this debate as I am off on a golfing holiday with my rich Tory friends

Enjoy......

[scotty]

The good news for England if the krankies get their way is the fact there will be 59 less MPs at Westminster . That's how many Scottish MPs will be made redundant

 

Most of whom are left-wing. I cant understand why Cameron is so opposed to it.

[pap]

A measured reply, thank you. My original point was only that Cameron was forced to concede to a referendum because SNP held a majority in the Scottish parliament and that in my opinion they reached this point due to Labour's policy of appeasement over a number of years !

Sadly I cannot take further part in this debate as I am off on a golfing holiday with my rich Tory friends

Enjoy......

 

This post is at best, very selective in its timeframe and at worst, nonsense.

 

All of the home nations bar England got some measure of devolved government after Labour's win in 1997. Most of the pro-devolution crowd were reacting against policy in Westminster. In Scotland's case, that'd include being guinea pigs for the poll tax, that small thing which eventually brought Thatcher's government down when she tried to apply it to the rest of the country.

 

I do think you're in a poor debating position, but it's got f**k all to do with the golf and probably everything to do with being a dim Tory. Not saying that you are permanently dim, or that every Tory is dim, but it's definitely how I'd characterise posts in which self-determination is apparently selective and all recorded history begins with the last Labour government.

[WindsorSaint]

Poll after poll shows the 17% of Tory voters in Scotland soiled in their support

 

Made me laugh...

[hutch]

Most of whom are left-wing. I cant understand why Cameron is so opposed to it.

Who says he is opposed to it?

[Patrick Bateman]

The good news for England if the krankies get their way is the fact there will be 59 less MPs at Westminster . That's how many Scottish MPs will be made redundant

 

A nice cost saving.

 

To be honest, I'm not fussed either way - it's a nice enough country to visit occasionally, but I really couldn't give a monkeys if they disappeared into oblivion. Fed up with almost every single Scottish person I've ever met having some stupid, pointless, boring anti-English chip on their shoulder.

They can sod off. We'll no doubt see them back in 5 years begging to be saved ...

[saintbletch]

 

If I'm honest I found myself slightly envious that in Scotland it's not considered off limits to put forward left-of-centre policies. Unaffordable pie in the sky they may be, but at least the political climate allows those things to be discussed. I found it refreshing, and I imagine the SNP's growth in support has been as a place for disgruntled voters to run to from the yellowy-purple amalgam of the centre-ground-grabbing 'traditional' parties. Much like UKIP in The South.

 

Re the 'debate', I was actually left thinking that it was an odd decision to put an anxious and overly beige 'droid like Darling up against a 'slick' politician like Salmond.

 

I don't understand the process that selected Darling as the No representative, but if I were as given to seeing conspiracy and not cockup as you, I might think that the great puppet master actually wants an independent Scotland.

 

I mean, if I had been managing Salmond's campaign I'd have been rubbing my hands - it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Take your pick.

 

Put Darling in a position where he is forced to defend the current policies of the coalition. At this point Darling is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Political DNA means that he can't make excuses for the current Westminster power brokers, yet if he reverts to type and claims that it will be better under the next labour government, then Salmond simply attacks on the line that he can't guarantee a Labour government.

 

Put Darling in a position where he describes the current hardship as a transient problem caused by economic downturn. At this point Salmond simply points out that it was the Labour party that governed the country during that period, and in fact Darling's hands, as chancellor, were on the recessionary rudder during that time.

 

Put Darling in a position where he is forced to dream up policies that specifically help Scotland, and he's stymied instantly. Because a) he doesn't talk for the coalition, and b) any post-election Labour policies he might mention are reliant on the Scottish people taking a leap of faith to believe that their combined Xen can suddenly turn the home counties into a vision of post-Tsarist Russia.

 

Throw in a bit of 'my oil expert is better than your oil expert', add a bit of jingoistic nationalism, pluck the 'Westminster doesn't care about us' heartstrings, add in the lament that the devolved Scottish parliament doesn't have enough power, set the whole shebang against a backdrop of The Edinburgh Festival and the successful Commonwealth Games and you're there.

 

Darling was forced to either paint a picture of the current Better-Together world in which he politically doesn't believe in, or paint a vision of a future Better-Together world that he can't guarantee he can deliver.

 

Darling's only weapon was 'fear'. He had to resort to spreading doubt, and in a debate setting like that passion trumps doubt every time.

 

It was a no-win situation. He was cannon fodder.

 

So papster who's the puppetmaster?

 

Holy fúcking shít, Batman. Think you might have cracked the case.

 

Re: bletch's cui bono conspiracy theory question. It was BoJo, bletch! It was BoJo all along!

 

Can we now start entertaining my "Boris is a Boys From Brazil style Aryan clone" theory?

 

The Aryan clone thing? Yeah that's a given, but Boris behind the engineered Yes vote? Not so sure pap.

 

The good news for England if the krankies get their way is the fact there will be 59 less MPs at Westminster . That's how many Scottish MPs will be made redundant

 

Most of whom are left-wing. I cant understand why Cameron is so opposed to it.

 

There's your cui bono papster!

 

Well, I guess my tongue is in my cheek here, but a semi-serious question. Could Cameron's play have been to remove the Labour vote in Scotland? Or at least, was it seen as some sort of win-win? Given the ground surrendered over Devo-Max it suggests not, but the impact on the Labour party of a Yes vote would surely benefit the other party/ies.

 

Then again, without PR what would the impact be of those lost MPs? Anyone seen any projections?

[pap]

The Aryan clone thing? Yeah that's a given, but Boris behind the engineered Yes vote? Not so sure pap.

 

There's your cui bono papster!

 

Well, I guess my tongue is in my cheek here, but a semi-serious question. Could Cameron's play have been to remove the Labour vote in Scotland? Or at least, was it seen as some sort of win-win? Given the ground surrendered over Devo-Max it suggests not, but the impact on the Labour party of a Yes vote would surely benefit the other party/ies.

 

Then again, without PR what would the impact be of those lost MPs? Anyone seen any projections?

 

The Wee Blue Book reckons that Labour would have still won most post-War elections, with or without Scotland.

 

http://theweebluebook.com/principles-and-politics.php

 

I reckon the Tories just underestimated Salmond and the sentiment against them, overestimating both the appeal and likely state of Union post-referendum. Saving the Union on the eve of an election would surely have been mana from heaven for the Little Englander vote.

 

However, as with most things, it's the implementation that has really let them down. Defeat from the jaws of victory?

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Wee Blue Book reckons that Labour would have still won most post-War elections, with or without Scotland.

 

http://theweebluebook.com/principles-and-politics.php

 

I reckon the Tories just underestimated Salmond and the sentiment against them, overestimating both the appeal and likely state of Union post-referendum. Saving the Union on the eve of an election would surely have been mana from heaven for the Little Englander vote.

 

However, as with most things, it's the implementation that has really let them down. Defeat from the jaws of victory?

 

If its a yes, it'll be down to the pro union labour party being unable to convince their supporters of the case.

 

Wasn't it George Robertson that said devolution had killed Scottish Nationalism stone dead.

 

The head of the no campaign is labour, his right hand man is labour, a labour shadow cabinet minister is touring with his iron bru box giving 100 speeches in 100 days, they've wheeled out the last Scottish prime minister who is labour, labour has the most Scottish MPs and the most voters, yet its all the Tories fault the campaigns a cock up.......I think your anti Tory bias is clouding your judgement. In fact it all started to fall apart after Darlings second debate, are you going to pin that on the Tories

[pap]

If its a yes, it'll be down to the pro union labour party being unable to convince their supporters of the case.

 

Wasn't it George Robertson that said devolution had killed Scottish Nationalism stone dead.

 

The head of the no campaign is labour, his right hand man is labour, a labour shadow cabinet minister is touring with his iron bru box giving 100 speeches in 100 days, they've wheeled out the last Scottish prime minister who is labour, labour has the most Scottish MPs and the most voters, yet its all the Tories fault the campaigns a cock up.......I think your anti Tory bias is clouding your judgement.

 

Let's see what the judgement is if people vote yes. As I said to Batman much earlier in the thread, the Queen won't be blaming Labour.

 

Nice try though.

[saintbletch]

The Wee Blue Book reckons that Labour would have still won most post-War elections, with or without Scotland.

 

http://theweebluebook.com/principles-and-politics.php

 

I reckon the Tories just underestimated Salmond and the sentiment against them, overestimating both the appeal and likely state of Union post-referendum. Saving the Union on the eve of an election would surely have been mana from heaven for the Little Englander vote.

 

However, as with most things, it's the implementation that has really let them down. Defeat from the jaws of victory?

 

I can't believe that I'm expending energy trying to convince you of a conspiracy where you see none.

 

Actually I just read that Salmond chose the date for the Referendum - which makes sense as it's close to The Edinburgh Festival and The Commonwealth Games. I thought I remembered it being a Westminster decision.

 

[pap's voice enters my mind] Ah, but it must have been a Westminster decision to allow it to be a Salmon decision...

 

So I too am edging toward seeing cock-up and not conspiracy, and yet, whilst I'm no lover of the political classes, do they really make such a catalogue of stupid judgements on such significant matters?

 

I guess the answer is "Yes".